EV Digest 6678
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: darn press!
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Last Call Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) PNW Converting to Electric Lawn Mower
by "Stand Culp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zilla question
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Are Pusher Trailers Legal?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
Yeah, I know, but the battery is exponentially more expensive than
a gas tank...
The gas tank itself is cheap; say $100. Its price is included in the
purchase price of the car, and you probably won't have to replace it in
the life of the car. But the gas you put in it is very expensive! Let's
say you get the national average of 21 mpg, and gas averages $2.50/gal
-- 100,000 miles costs 4762 gal x $2.50 = $11,900. So the gas tank + gas
costs $12,000 for 100,000 miles.
With an EV, the batteries cost a lot but the electricity is cheap. Let's
say this EV uses 24 golf cart batteries at $75 each, and they last
20,000 miles per pack. 100,000 miles costs 24 x $75 x 5 sets = $9000.
Suppose this EV uses 300 wh/mile, and you pay 10 cents/KWH; then
electricity for 100,000 miles costs 0.3kwh/mile x 100,000 miles x
$0.10/kwh = $3000. So the EV costs $9000 + $3000 = $12,000 -- exactly
the same!
The problem is a difference in perception. People *think* they are
paying more because the payments come in bigger chunks. But this can be
handled the same way consumers handle all other big purchases; by
renting, leasing, or buying on the installment plan. Battery dealers can
sell them the same way cars are sold. "Buy a new pack NOW for your EV!
Faster, more range, yada yada, for only $99 down! (plus 24 easy monthly
payments of $99 each.)
$99 x 25 = $2475. Simply buying the pack outright at $75/battery x 24
batteries would have only cost $1800, but most consumers don't think
that way. The extra $675 is profit for the outfit financing the deal.
I will say, that my teenage son couldn't be more excited about the EV we
are building for him, and all of his friends think it is going to be
cool too.
If you really want to do something worthwhile, get a kid involved with
EVs. They are who will be driving the marketplace of the future.
Yes!!!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
I got the impression from the video that the GM/Tesla price is
$2/cell. If that's the case, then that means the batteries CAN
BE had at that price and the manufacturer is still making a profit.
An A123 cell delivers about 3v at 2ah = 6wh. Even at $2 each, that's 33
cents per watthour. A plain old flooded lead-acid delivers 6v at 150ah =
900wh for $75, or 8 cents per watthour, or 4 times the price.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:36:39 -0400
No, the first run of EV1s were not profitable.. even a blind gorilla
knows that. However it would have been profitable after a few years..
but not profitable ENOUGH for the folks at GM to want to endorse it.
They knew that people would eat these cars up once they became
available, they knew that battery chemistry would provide the holy
'300 mile' range in less than 6 years if it was aggressively pursued.
They also knew that even if it were a niche market car, which they
have MANY of already, that it would seriously fuel the demand for more
and more of their standard models to become electric, until they no
longer had an income from their parts market, and their dealers no
longer made any money from repairs.
OK, we'll leave off the battery thing for now. My point is that there is
already industries that mass market similar batteries and they are still
quite expensive. You believe that GM could have produced them for a quarter
of the price within 5 years... we'll never know.
But here I would disagree with you again, and again by looking at something
similar that has already played out in the market place.
You assert that the EV1, though it was a niche market car, was so good, that
it would have started an EV revolution that would have spread to the rest of
the companys car lines, and become so wildly popular that it would have
killed the rest of GMs business model because of the lost revenue from parts
and repairs etc...
So we have something similar in the Electric Hybrid car movement. Both
Toyota and Honda have produced outstanding niche market hybrids in the Prius
and Insight. The Prius is decidedly a little less niche market as it is not
a two seater like the Honda Insight. The techonology for these cars has
been rolled into existing model lines, but the jury is still out on how
revolutionary a change this is making.
Both Honda and Toyota have been successful at selling hybrids, but it is
currently still a very small percentage of their overall sales. A consumer
has to pay a $2K -$4K premium for the hybrid technology and many people are
just not willing to spend that money up front. It's pretty simple math to
look forward and see when the savings in fuel will break even for you
compared to the cost of whatever it is you are currently driving. In my own
case I estimate that my Honda Insight has saved me around $8000 in fuel
costs over the last 6 years.
So the hybrids have been on the market for 7 years, the premium you pay for
them is relatively small, they do not suffer from many of the limitations or
stereotypes that BEVs do, and they require absolutely no change in lifestyle
or status quo for the consumer. The bottom line for me is that hybrids have
not come close to making the fundamental changes you seem so sure that GM
could make with a killer EV, and I see many more roadblocks for EVs to pull
it off, so I don't see your assertions as plausible.
I really think that unless one of the forward thinking Asian car makers
becomes convinced that electrics are the future that our only hope is for
EVs to become popular in a grass roots way. If they become "the thing" the
big boys will do what they seem to like to do best which is try to play
catch up with the market place.
BTW - I've kind of ignored alot of the Chevy Volt stuff because of my
skepticism, but if GM or any other car company were to put out a plug in
hybrid, I would have a hard time keeping myself away from the dealership and
snapping one right up. A fully functional BEV would be nice as well. I'll
keep my fingers crossed, and I won't be punishing any company for their past
sins by withholding my hard earned money from them. If they build what I
want to buy I'll buy it.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:07:10 -0500
The nimh battery uses nickel as its most expensive ingredient. Everything
else is either cheap, or used in very low quantities. So, a very quick and
dirty way to estimate the ultimate price is by looking at the price of
nickel. At the moment, nickel sells for about $23 per pound. So, a
mass-produced 60 pound nimh EV95 battery would sell for $1380 each.
Are you telling me that a NIMH battery to run a full size EV only weighs 60
pounds! If that is correct that's outstanding and I take back all my other
expensive battery arguments. I find this hard to believe however, since the
tiny NIMH battery in my Honda Insight weighs about this much. If the
batteries that are providing a hundred mile range in the Rav4 EVs only weigh
60 lbs and could be produced for roughly $1500 then go ahead and reserve a
seat for me on the conspiracy theory band wagon :-)
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates NEAR 39yr LOWS! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,299/mo - Calculate
new payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-19132&moid=14888
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, do these HP and high shunt voltage characteristics apply to the D&D sepex
motor?
thanks,
JF
Lee Hart wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
Field control alone is only good for about a 4:1 speed range. If you
wind a motor for 1500 rpm at full field, you'd only get about 6000 rpm
at 1/4 field. Is that fast enough for you?
The other problem is that torque is proportional to field current; at
1/4 field you only have 1/4 the torque. You can make up for this to some
extent with higher armature current, but that causes other problems
(lower efficiency, more brush arcing).
A field controlled motor like this is basically a constant-horsepower
drive. If it's a 10hp motor, you can get that 10hp over the entire speed
range, 1500-6000 rpm. This works if that's all the HP you need.
But most people would rather have a very high peak horsepower, far in
excess of the motor's nameplate average HP. This is what you can get
with a series motor, where putting it straight across the battery can
give you high current *and* high armature voltage simultaneously (at low
rpm). Series motor have this strong "tilt" in the speed-vs-horsepower
curves; very high HP at low speed, very low HP at high speeds, and rated
HP somewhere in the middle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah if you pay the extra for the $20 battery brusher it'll last 80,000 miles.
;-P
I think the guy got confused with the motor brushes. Those electric "engines"
are diffucult things to understand ;-)
But at least they start at 40 below, right?
That guy from the paper called me yesterday but I was out of the office. Looks
like he wasted no time in going to press.
So Mike, How is the Festival up there going in general? Sounds like there's a
lot of info being focused on. Are you getting any face time with people on
your truck?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:34 am
Subject: Re: darn press!
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> "His upkeep consists of a $20 battery brusher every 80,000 miles,
> new
> batteries every three years and water for the battery cases every
> season."
> Battery brusher? =)
>
> mike golub wrote:
> > http://newsminer.com/2007/04/19/6555/
> >
> >
> > Well, I tried... but they still mess up the facts...
> >
> > enjoy!
> >
> > Michael Golub
> > Fairbanks, AK
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/18/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
An A123 cell delivers about 3v at 2ah = 6wh. Even at $2 each, that's 33
cents per watthour. A plain old flooded lead-acid delivers 6v at 150ah =
900wh for $75, or 8 cents per watthour, or 4 times the price.
Aha, but at 4 times the cycle life of lead acid it would still make
sense. And don't forget the weight reduction and increased performance
of your vehicle, that must be worth something to a lot of people.
Ofcourse $2 per cell is only a distant dream at this time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, I had a peek around the internet and found this.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/symposium/presentations/freund.pdf
It indicates that the Rav4 EV has around 1000lbs of the NIMH EV 95 batteries
on board. If we use Lee's method below, that puts the cost of the battery
at around $23,000 to mass produce or right back where we started.
damon
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:43:44 +0000
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:07:10 -0500
The nimh battery uses nickel as its most expensive ingredient. Everything
else is either cheap, or used in very low quantities. So, a very quick and
dirty way to estimate the ultimate price is by looking at the price of
nickel. At the moment, nickel sells for about $23 per pound. So, a
mass-produced 60 pound nimh EV95 battery would sell for $1380 each.
Are you telling me that a NIMH battery to run a full size EV only weighs 60
pounds! If that is correct that's outstanding and I take back all my other
expensive battery arguments. I find this hard to believe however, since
the tiny NIMH battery in my Honda Insight weighs about this much. If the
batteries that are providing a hundred mile range in the Rav4 EVs only
weigh 60 lbs and could be produced for roughly $1500 then go ahead and
reserve a seat for me on the conspiracy theory band wagon :-)
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Interest Rates NEAR 39yr LOWS! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,299/mo - Calculate
new payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-19132&moid=14888
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: "largish" brushless motors available
Jeff Major wrote:
I wonder if anyone ever melted a rotor on a Solectria or GM EV1.
I think those had aluminum rotors.
The EV1 rotor I saw had copper windings, for precisely this reason. I
don't know what Solectria used.
Old induction motors frequently had copper windings. The idea of molding
aluminum windings in place is relatively recent, and done as a cost saving
measure; not to improve performance. I suspect it won't be long before I
see one cast with pot metal (random scrap) because aluminum is getting
expensive.
LOL - I don't think so, Lee! Diecast (pot metal) doesn't have very good
electrical properties, and the casting in the rotors has to have that! Now,
that's not to say that someone couldn't come up with a material to cast with
that wasn't aluminum, but it wouldn't be as efficient, either.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, Damon - it is interesting to hear what Tim is saying (and would be
nice if true), but I disagree with his rantings.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:36:39 -0400
No, the first run of EV1s were not profitable.. even a blind gorilla
knows that. However it would have been profitable after a few years..
but not profitable ENOUGH for the folks at GM to want to endorse it.
They knew that people would eat these cars up once they became
available, they knew that battery chemistry would provide the holy
'300 mile' range in less than 6 years if it was aggressively pursued.
They also knew that even if it were a niche market car, which they
have MANY of already, that it would seriously fuel the demand for more
and more of their standard models to become electric, until they no
longer had an income from their parts market, and their dealers no
longer made any money from repairs.
OK, we'll leave off the battery thing for now. My point is that there is
already industries that mass market similar batteries and they are still
quite expensive. You believe that GM could have produced them for a
quarter of the price within 5 years... we'll never know.
But here I would disagree with you again, and again by looking at
something similar that has already played out in the market place.
You assert that the EV1, though it was a niche market car, was so good,
that it would have started an EV revolution that would have spread to the
rest of the companys car lines, and become so wildly popular that it would
have killed the rest of GMs business model because of the lost revenue
from parts and repairs etc...
So we have something similar in the Electric Hybrid car movement. Both
Toyota and Honda have produced outstanding niche market hybrids in the
Prius and Insight. The Prius is decidedly a little less niche market as
it is not a two seater like the Honda Insight. The techonology for these
cars has been rolled into existing model lines, but the jury is still out
on how revolutionary a change this is making.
Both Honda and Toyota have been successful at selling hybrids, but it is
currently still a very small percentage of their overall sales. A
consumer has to pay a $2K -$4K premium for the hybrid technology and many
people are just not willing to spend that money up front. It's pretty
simple math to look forward and see when the savings in fuel will break
even for you compared to the cost of whatever it is you are currently
driving. In my own case I estimate that my Honda Insight has saved me
around $8000 in fuel costs over the last 6 years.
So the hybrids have been on the market for 7 years, the premium you pay
for them is relatively small, they do not suffer from many of the
limitations or stereotypes that BEVs do, and they require absolutely no
change in lifestyle or status quo for the consumer. The bottom line for
me is that hybrids have not come close to making the fundamental changes
you seem so sure that GM could make with a killer EV, and I see many more
roadblocks for EVs to pull it off, so I don't see your assertions as
plausible.
I really think that unless one of the forward thinking Asian car makers
becomes convinced that electrics are the future that our only hope is for
EVs to become popular in a grass roots way. If they become "the thing"
the big boys will do what they seem to like to do best which is try to
play catch up with the market place.
BTW - I've kind of ignored alot of the Chevy Volt stuff because of my
skepticism, but if GM or any other car company were to put out a plug in
hybrid, I would have a hard time keeping myself away from the dealership
and snapping one right up. A fully functional BEV would be nice as well.
I'll keep my fingers crossed, and I won't be punishing any company for
their past sins by withholding my hard earned money from them. If they
build what I want to buy I'll buy it.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why is it that when people speak up vigorously everyone calls it 'ranting'?
Batteries are not the limiting factor. Batteries were never the
limiting factor. Everything goes down in cost with mass production
and innovation. Innovation provides reduction in commodity use for the
same practical use, such as the aforementioned Firefly battery that
promises to hold 4 times the energy of a standard lead acid wet cell
for near the same cost. Such as the Lithium chemistry batteries that
are only just getting into production now, and have already achieved
enough price compatibility to be packaged, for example, into a 36v
portable tool power supply. Such as the NiMH technology that has been
stalled, but theoretically can produce much more energy than current
production models for less resource cost. Such as the NiZN technology
being pioneered by eVionyx and Powergenix. And so on.
GM knows this. Talk to any supply side economics professor. They can
give you great equations as to costs going down with volume and market
demand, counter balanced with resource scarcity as well as artificial
demand constraints. GM employs some very, very smart people in its
financial planning department. They did the bean counting. They know
how innovation drives the marketplace and how costs can come down
rapidly with uptake. Once you have people driving 100 mile range EVs,
and it starts to number in the millions, market demand for more
efficient, better batteries will be HUGE. Very large amounts of
capital would suddenly become available to invest in battery
technology and in a very short time, something on the order of less
than a decade, you would have 500 mile range packs with 100k+ mile
durability for half the cost. How do I know this? Because the
theoretical capacity of most battery chemistry is much higher than
that per kg and the only reason better large format batteries have not
been developed to date is because no one needed them.
By the way, Nickel is about 24% of the weight of a NiMH battery, so
the current value of the Nickel in the 1000lb EV95 battery pack, at
$23 per lb, is $5520.. well within what I would say was reasonable for
a battery pack replacement. Let alone, you would get the salvage value
of the nickel in the existing battery, which should cut the cost in
half or better. So now we're down to about $2700. Which is about 1/10
the price you are quoting above.
This is all straightforward economics and finance.. and really, I am
not trying to tweak anyone nor yell at people. I respect everyone's
opinion, however when you are proceeding from information which has
been produced from "spin" it irks me a bit. I apologize if I've
offended anyone, but please.. think about it and do NOT trust the big
makers.
------------
Oh as far as the Prius goes... do you think they'd sell better if they
didn't look like a shoebox? I do. The only reason I would buy one is
because it is a Hybrid.. it looks terrible to me. There is no earthly
reason those cars have to look like putt putt mobiles. If they put
some styling into them they'd sell a lot better. Maybe they should
talk to Lotus!
As far as uptake goes.. the PHEV -will- be the next revolution mate.
You watch. The reason the Prius hybrid is not being grabbed by the
hordes and masses are twofold:
1) Its pretty homely
2) It does not plug in and its mileage is only slightly better than
MUCH better looking small cars. In fact, I have a Golf TDI that gets
mileage that is -better- than the Prius.
If it (a) looked cool and/or (b) plugged in they'd get a HUGE boost in sales.
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes, same here.
just need an amount, name, address.
I'm going with the kit option.
temp sensing is a must!
I have 10+1 12v gel cells so I'll need two relay
boards.
regards
Brian B.
--- John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 4/19/07 7:01 AM, "John RA Benson"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I'm happy to cough up a down payment to verify
> interest/confirm order and get
> > the ball rolling. Just need to know how much $ and
> where to send the dough.
> >
> > Cheers
> > JRAB
> >
> > On 4/19/07 12:04 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> We have gone one month and it is time to now to
> place the order. I have sent
> >> this on to any groups that I thought would be
> interested.
> >>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Aha, but at 4 times the cycle life of lead acid it would still make
sense. And don't forget the weight reduction and increased performance
of your vehicle, that must be worth something to a lot of people.
Ofcourse $2 per cell is only a distant dream at this time.
Hmm.. I bet it will happen pretty soon. :-) Right now, this second,
you can get them for a bit over $9 (retail) per cell direct from A123.
I'll bet they'll halve by late next year, and halve again soon after
that, at which point we'll be hitting that mark, say by about 2010. It
might be much sooner if they get another high volume production deal
or two.
Now if you were a business, that means you would likely, right now,
this second, be paying more like $4.50 per cell, considering keystone
markup. That means by late next year you might get them for something
like $2 wholesale in bulk. Or less even.
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
Lee, do these HP and high shunt voltage characteristics apply to the D&D
sepex motor?
I'm not familiar with the D&D motor, so I can't say how it is built. But
in general, if you put two or more field windings on a motor, they act
somewhat like a transformer -- the turns ratio between them defines the
AC voltages between them. This doesn't matter if you simply apply a DC
current and voltage to them.
But if you use a PWM controller, it uses the motor's field inductance as
part of the controller's circuitry. The controller applies an AC voltage
to the field, alternating between 0v and the full pack voltage. This AC
voltage is what can be stepped up by the field turns ratio.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
On 4/18/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
An A123 cell delivers about 3v at 2ah = 6wh. Even at $2 each, that's 33
cents per watthour. A plain old flooded lead-acid delivers 6v at 150ah =
900wh for $75, or 8 cents per watthour, or 4 times the price.
Aha, but at 4 times the cycle life of lead acid it would still make
sense.
It might, if A123's claimed life turns out to be real. At this point, it
still just a marketing claim.
And don't forget the weight reduction and increased performance
of your vehicle, that must be worth something to a lot of people.
There are people that will pay more for increased performance. But will
they pay *4 times* more?
Ofcourse $2 per cell is only a distant dream at this time.
Indeed. I hope a year or two from now we can discuss this again based on
what they have *done*, rather than one they *claim*.
--
You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do. -- Henry Ford
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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damon henry wrote:
Are you telling me that a NIMH battery to run a full size EV only
weighs 60 pounds!
No; I think the RAV4-EV's pack weighs more like 1000 lbs. I don't have
specs on the Panasonic EV95, but I think it was a 12v 95ah module (10
cells). The RAV4-EV must have had about 24 of them for a 300v pack.
(Anyone have more accurate numbers?)
A little more research tells me that the EV95 probably weighs close to
40 lbs. That would peg its manufacturing cost at 40 x $23/lbs = $920
each, or 24 x $920 = $22k for the entire RAV4-EV pack.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Lee Hart wrote:
An A123 cell delivers about 3v at 2ah = 6wh. Even at $2 each, that's 33
cents per watthour. A plain old flooded lead-acid delivers 6v at 150ah =
900wh for $75, or 8 cents per watthour, or 4 times the price.
To clarify... the A123 cells is 4 times more expensive per watthour than
the lead-acid battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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John,
I'd say that you should only use Cat 5e for this, as that is rated for
powered plenum work (heavily shielded against current) and also put
the 'black thing' in place just as the original has it, if possible.
Don't leave any lose wiring braided together and taped.. find a
friendly geek and get him to crimp the ends on for you. Or buy a Cat
5e short cable.
Otmar is busy, but he does seem to make time available for existing
customers so he might throw something together for you if you need a
longer cable, btw.
On 4/17/07, John O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm actually wiring up my conversion and I have a question for those
familiar with Zilla setups. The cat 5 cable for connecting the Zilla
to the the hairball that came from Otmar is a bit on the short side.
Can I replace it with a custom cut length of cat 5 installing that
"black thing" from the original cable on the new cable.
What is that black thing anyway?
John
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I found a chart of the 48V motor:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ddmotor.htm see the pdf
Lee Hart wrote:
john fisher wrote:
Lee, do these HP and high shunt voltage characteristics apply to the
D&D sepex motor?
I'm not familiar with the D&D motor, so I can't say how it is built. But
in general, if you put two or more field windings on a motor, they act
somewhat like a transformer -- the turns ratio between them defines the
AC voltages between them. This doesn't matter if you simply apply a DC
current and voltage to them.
But if you use a PWM controller, it uses the motor's field inductance as
part of the controller's circuitry. The controller applies an AC voltage
to the field, alternating between 0v and the full pack voltage. This AC
voltage is what can be stepped up by the field turns ratio.
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I had some time ago created a wikipedia article about pusher trailers.
You can read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_trailer
There is also a related Genset_trailer... (That's for another thread)
In the past few days someone had created a new "Baset Trailer" about
a trailer full of batteries, which doesn't seem to actually be in use
and so may be removed. Anyway, this got me to thinking that I should
preemptively assert that the same were not true for Pusher & Genset
trailers. This seems to have got some discussion going on those
articles Discussion or Talk pages, the one that most concerns me is
Athol's contention that a "Pusher trailer" may not actually be legal?
I would very much appreciate the thoughts and comments of the members
of this list to either rebut or verify that this is in fact the case.
Here is a copy of the Talk page for the Pusher Trailer article...
L8r
Ryan (--D0li0)
For the record, I contend that this article is not WP:OR as apparent by
WP:SET due to 1230 google hits. Such trailers are discussed in Battery
electric vehicle (BEV) forums, and used by numerous EV converters. There
is a photo of at least one such device in the article itself, is that
proof enough of it's existence and use? --D0li0 07:20, 19 April 2007
* I haven't made comment on this article to date, as I have been
awaiting an official response from a US government department to confirm
that the entire design is totally illegal there. I already have
confirmation from the UK Department of Transport and know that they are
an illegal vehicle type under UN-ECE regulations, which cover most of
the world outside the USA. Hence, while not necessarily original
research, they're probably not legal on the road anywhere in the world.
--Athol Mullen 11:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
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Well, I'm sure we are starting to bore everyone, but...
I wish battery makers were as agressive at cutting their prices as you are
:-)
Lee, who has decades of experience engineering products to be manufactured
by real companies gave us a nice rule of thumb on how to estimate the
manufacturing cost of an item from the cost of the raw materials. You don't
seem to trust his rule of thumb, but my experience tells me he's pretty good
at these things.
Somehow you think someone is going to be able to manufacture and sell
something for $2700 when the cost of one of the raw materials (albeit the
major one) would cost around $5500 dollars. I'm using your 24% figure BTW.
You see thats 24% of a 1000lb battery multiplied by $23.
As far as your facts as to why the Prius isn't an even bigger hit, that is
clearly opinion and not based in fact. I liked how you throw in a VW Golf
TDI as a better choice. I wonder which model sold better in 2006. I know
that Toyota sold just North of 100,000 Prius, but I have no idea how many
Golf TDIs were sold.
So if the Golf TDI is so revolutionary why aren't all cars converting to...
oh never mind.
At least we both like EV's. Let me know when I can buy my $2700 300 volt 95
ah NIMH battery, I'll have the check waiting. In the meantime I plan on
stuffing a bunch of US Military surplus BB600 flooded NiCads under the bed
of a 1970 Datsun pickup.
damon
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:58:23 -0400
By the way, Nickel is about 24% of the weight of a NiMH battery, so
the current value of the Nickel in the 1000lb EV95 battery pack, at
$23 per lb, is $5520.. well within what I would say was reasonable for
a battery pack replacement. Let alone, you would get the salvage value
of the nickel in the existing battery, which should cut the cost in
half or better. So now we're down to about $2700. Which is about 1/10
the price you are quoting above.
------------
Oh as far as the Prius goes... do you think they'd sell better if they
didn't look like a shoebox? I do. The only reason I would buy one is
because it is a Hybrid.. it looks terrible to me. There is no earthly
reason those cars have to look like putt putt mobiles. If they put
some styling into them they'd sell a lot better. Maybe they should
talk to Lotus!
As far as uptake goes.. the PHEV -will- be the next revolution mate.
You watch. The reason the Prius hybrid is not being grabbed by the
hordes and masses are twofold:
1) Its pretty homely
2) It does not plug in and its mileage is only slightly better than
MUCH better looking small cars. In fact, I have a Golf TDI that gets
mileage that is -better- than the Prius.
If it (a) looked cool and/or (b) plugged in they'd get a HUGE boost in
sales.
--T
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