EV Digest 6679
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) DC/DC Interference near contactors?
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lithium batteries & safety
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DC/DC Interference near contactors?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Are Pusher Trailers Legal?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Last Call Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) What is up with the rash of illegal message formats recently?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: PNW Converting to Electric Lawn Mower
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) A123 connections
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: A123 connections
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: A123 connections
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Batteries, D+DRe: Excellent GM Volt video
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Last Call Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: CURTIS CONTROLLER FIRES - AMMETER ACCURACY was Re: fuse size
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Forklift Motor Choice
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EMIS (was Converting my F-150)
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: KillaCycle pack voltage (was: Killacycle in DesignFax online
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> You know, it always happens. People bash a corporation for doing
> something wrong and those 'defenders of the marketplace' come in
> and accuse us of being conspiracy theorists.
So the alternative is that I'm somehow part of GM's huge conspiracy. :(
Pardon me if I don't run out to buy the viewpoint you're trying so hard
to sell.
Look, this is simple -- don't try so hard to sell your story
(conspiracy?)... let your vehicle do the talking. When enough of us
display and promote actual performance, not the theory, no amount of
conspiracy will quiet the truth. Deliver a BEV that competes well with
an ICE on the same footing -- don't test preferentially on metrics that
favor the BEV as a new-comer; test realistically on general metrics,
acknowledging that the ICE has wider acceptance, and that the population
will inevitable consider your BEV in the context of their ICEs. Embrace
that and celebrate it when (not if!) your BEV beats the ICE on its own
field, with its own numbers. Prove supremacy with the numbers available
today, not speculations for tomorrow.
Talking amongst ourselves about how we've been beaten and conspired
against doesn't help advance BEVs much, but it does marginalize our BEV
cause. Instead of apologizing for or explaining away past failures,
let's move on and celebrate current successes. White Zombie and
KillaCycle, as well as Tesla and Phoenix, all these current successes
are pushing the right direction... but some folks on this list are so
thoroughly attached to past issues (grudges against GM are negative
attachments!) that we seem fixated.
I'm anxiously awaiting further successes of EVs, and busily dismissing
conspiracies of ANY kind (positive or negative) in the meantime.
Randii
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Will a IOTA DC/DC converter pick up noise from a zilla or contactors,
heater relay in close proximity. I was considering a large long,
vented box with all the components. If noise is an issue which
components need to be separated if any? How far?
Thanks,
Mark
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The small amount of organic solvent electrolyte inside an A123 cell
is flammable. If you have a spark after the cell has started to vent,
and there is the correct mixture of solvent vapor with the
surrounding air, you will set the solvent on fire. Inside a battery
box, this won't happen because there is not enough air and the
mixture will likely be too "rich" to ignite. If it does ignite, the
available air will be used up quickly, and the flames with extinguish.
Ken is correct. The energy in the cell is large enough that things in
the circuit can get very hot, perhaps even turn to plasma. The amount
of energy in relationship to the weight of the cell is what you are
striving for, but that also means that the cell can get quite hot if
you manage to dump all that energy as heat back into the cell itself.
The A123 cells can take a higher temperature than any Li-Ion
cell that I have ever heard of, and they simply vent if you go to too
high of a temperature (like 120 C)
The system is about as safe as you can make it while holding
that much energy in a package that small.
Bill Dube'
At 07:15 AM 4/19/2007, you wrote:
One thing to keep in mind, if you connect a piece of wire across any
relatively unyielding power source, the wire will catch fire. If
the wire (nail) happens to be inside the battery, it will still catch fire.
Pretty much anything will burn if it is hot enough, but, that does
not necessarily mean that the batteries are just teetering on edge
of bursting into flames. Perspectively, putting a match to a
battery is not quite as likely to catch fire as putting a match to
gasoline. It is in deed necessary to know the characteristic
hazards of anything we use, but, I feel it is unrealistic to expect
to store substantial amounts of energy, in any form, with no hazards.
Ken
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I have a couple of cast aluminum EV1 rotors at work, I'm not sure if
they're what made it into production though or if they were just
rotors used on the impact or other prototypes.
On 4/19/07, Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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Solectria used Lincoln Motors (now Marathon) and were die cast
aluminum. I would have lost a bet on EV1. I never saw the inside of
one, but am surprised GM would stand for the cost of a copper rotor.
I have used both copper and aluminum. And for the cost difference,
I would go aluminum. The cost is primarily in fabrication. The
Copper Development Association has been busy funding research in die
casting copper rotors. And I have seen some reports of progress. But
I don't think any of the major players in the NEMA line of induction
motors offer copper rotors at this time in the size machine at issue
here.
I wonder what Siemens and MES use. This Brusa rotor looks like Aluminum.
http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm See photo 3 under Brusa motor details.
And BTW, I have a 1934 text showing a photo of a die cast aluminum
rotor (Reliance Electric and Engineering Company). Probably not used
by Nikola Tesla, but in his lifetime.
Jeff
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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You get a rookie response first; let's see if I get it
right:
The higher the current, the higher the EMF.
Therefore, keep your 2.0 welding cable routed away
from low voltage, low current, and you should be fine.
EMF falls off fairly quickly, but I'd use 10 cm if
possible as a good rule of thumb...
--- Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Will a IOTA DC/DC converter pick up noise from a
> zilla or contactors,
> heater relay in close proximity. I was considering
> a large long,
> vented box with all the components. If noise is an
> issue which
> components need to be separated if any? How far?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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There was a discussion about this on the list a few months back.
The answer is "it depends". It depends on your state and in some cases
depends on how you register it.
Some states allow the trailer to push and some don't. Of those that
don't, some have a special class of utility vehicle, or something similar,
that is allowed to push.
Basically, you'll have to check the state laws where you want to register it.
> I had some time ago created a wikipedia article about pusher trailers.
> You can read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_trailer
> There is also a related Genset_trailer... (That's for another thread)
>
> In the past few days someone had created a new "Baset Trailer" about
> a trailer full of batteries, which doesn't seem to actually be in use
> and so may be removed. Anyway, this got me to thinking that I should
> preemptively assert that the same were not true for Pusher & Genset
> trailers. This seems to have got some discussion going on those
> articles Discussion or Talk pages, the one that most concerns me is
> Athol's contention that a "Pusher trailer" may not actually be legal?
>
> I would very much appreciate the thoughts and comments of the members
> of this list to either rebut or verify that this is in fact the case.
>
> Here is a copy of the Talk page for the Pusher Trailer article...
>
> L8r
> Ryan (--D0li0)
>
> For the record, I contend that this article is not WP:OR as apparent by
> WP:SET due to 1230 google hits. Such trailers are discussed in Battery
> electric vehicle (BEV) forums, and used by numerous EV converters. There
> is a photo of at least one such device in the article itself, is that
> proof enough of it's existence and use? --D0li0 07:20, 19 April 2007
>
> * I haven't made comment on this article to date, as I have been
> awaiting an official response from a US government department to confirm
> that the entire design is totally illegal there. I already have
> confirmation from the UK Department of Transport and know that they are
> an illegal vehicle type under UN-ECE regulations, which cover most of
> the world outside the USA. Hence, while not necessarily original
> research, they're probably not legal on the road anywhere in the world.
> --Athol Mullen 11:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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Would this be better/easier if we had a web based order form that
interested folks could fill out and submit?
Something that included all of the possible options and a brief
description of what they do.
I'd be happy to create the form and host it, if it would help.
> yes, same here.
> just need an amount, name, address.
> I'm going with the kit option.
> temp sensing is a must!
> I have 10+1 12v gel cells so I'll need two relay
> boards.
>
> regards
>
> Brian B.
>
> --- John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On 4/19/07 7:01 AM, "John RA Benson"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm happy to cough up a down payment to verify
>> interest/confirm order and get
>> > the ball rolling. Just need to know how much $ and
>> where to send the dough.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > JRAB
>> >
>> > On 4/19/07 12:04 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> We have gone one month and it is time to now to
>> place the order. I have sent
>> >> this on to any groups that I thought would be
>> interested.
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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Is the list miss-marking these, or are we having a terminal case of folks
not following the rules?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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Stand,
I like the Schumacher 1.5 amp charger (or equivalent) but it is not
cheap anymore. Look at E-bay number 140107596426 for an example, around
$35 shipped to you. You may prefer a larger charger. I use this on an
Optima in a travel trailer to keep it charged. It has a light to show
you when it is connected to the outlet, and another to show when the
battery is charged. In another application, I kept one plugged in
constantly to keep a car sized battery charged, and had good luck for
many years (I need to borrow this charger back from my in-laws) and have
a newer one in the garage from E-bay purchased for about $25 including
shipping. I have used a 12v wall-wart style power supply, about 1 amp
or less, to charge a battery, but you have to manually disconnect it,
and do not know when the battery is charged. However, a larger charger,
with more "smarts" inside, will give the battery a fuller charge, and
make it last longer than such a slow charge each time.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stand Culp
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: PNW Converting to Electric Lawn Mower
I am looking for both an automotive starter motor, and a deep cycle 12V
battery to power the mower.
I checked out prices for the motor thru wrecking yards in the Portland
Ore
area and found a good deal, and was pondering where I can get an
inexpensive
deep cycle bat that'd be adequate to the job and thinking someone on the
list (and in the Portland/Vancouver area) might have BOTH that I could
scrounge. Sooooooo, if you are converting and have a 12V starter motor
and
or a deep cycle that isn't up to par for a vehicle pack but might work
for
my conversion project, please let me know.
I was gonna go to the wrecking yard today, but after this LIST
brainstorm,
I'll go ahead and take care of some other chores today and check the
email
for any hits, and if nuthin turns up on here can hit the auto salvage
tomorrow or monday of next week.
Does anyone have any genius ideas on a small charger unit for a single
deep
cycle bat?
TIA
I picked up my donor '92 S-10 (ext cab) a few days ago, and would use
the
starter motor from it, but I"m gonna be using the truck for landscaping
projects around here during the spring while I research whose kit or
components to go with on the ElecTruck#1
Also I'll be looking for a few tools before the ET1 project gets going:
small hoist, MIG or suchlike welder (my oxy-acet rig hasn't been used in
a
decade and at the least I'm gonna need new hoses and the regulators gone
thru - and they're probably not worth the effort.)
Thanks again, Stand
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These cells are usually connected by soldering or welding, but how
about just using the good old spring technique, common in many
smaller battery-powered devices (flashlights etc)? Or why not just
press the cell ends against each other? That way you could easily
remove single bad cells from the pack.
There must be an obvious reason not to do so, but if someone could
explain it...
When using lugs and bolts to connect lead batteries, there is only
the pressure to hold the parts together, no soldering or welding. What
´s so different with these smaller cells?
Thanks,
Osmo
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Your goal is specific energy and/or specific
power. When you add the weight of the components
needed to squeeze the cells together with enough
force, the battery assembly gets heavy.
Also, the resistance of a pressure contact is
inversely proportional to the force applied. It
takes a large force to get to the low resistance
needed to keep from overheating the cells under
high rate discharge. Also, since you are after
specific power, that resistance is killing you.
To boost the power, you must add more structure
to up the force and thus, reduce the specific power.
The cells will only take so much force
without damage. The huge force needed to get
equal resistance to welded contacts would damage
the cells. You would have to push hard enough to
cold weld the cells together, if you think about it.
We tried pressure contacts many years
ago on the KillaCycle and learned all these lessons the hard way.
Bill Dube'
At 07:04 PM 4/19/2007, you wrote:
> When using lugs and bolts to connect lead batteries, there is only
> the pressure to hold the parts together, no soldering or welding. What´s
> so different with these smaller cells?
Thanks,
Osmo
I am only guessing here, but, I would suspect that the pressure necessary to
make a good connection would exceed the physical strength of the battery
assembly. The clamping force on battery posts
and studs are pressing on the posts
and studs only, not against the battery casing.
I do wonder, however, if one could sandwich the battery tabs between two
copper buss bars that are bolted together in
close proximity to the tabs down its
length. Has anyone tried that? Comments?
Ken
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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Hi Timothy and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Excellent GM Volt video
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:58:23 -0400
>Why is it that when people speak up vigorously everyone
>calls it 'ranting'?
Maybe because yours are. We are suppose to discuss
EV's, how to build, run, not the political aspects other
than a mention. Where you keep droning on to makes it a
rant.
And whether or not the Auto companies want to build
EV's or not has little bearing on why they are not made as
many others could if they like. It's not brain surgery.
Now add to the fact you have bought the myth that
we need better batteries show how well their propangda
works.
Regular, inexpensive, cost effective batteries are
here now. They are called golf cart batteries and made of
lead!! With them and only them can you beat an ICE in cost.
So you just need to build an EV that maximizes the CG
batteries which is the only real missing EV problem.
While my version will do 100 mile average range,
the new Sunrise may get as much as 175 mile range on GC
batteries as both can hold well over 55% battery weight. How
we do it is by having a very light body/chassis with low
drag aero shapes. Of course the Sunrise's 377 mile record on
NiMH isn't anything to sneeze at. At least instead of
bitching, Lee, myself, Tesla, others doing the main things
we need, low drag built as EV's.
Once the Li batts come into reasonable price the
range can either go up or use a lighter pack. But to be
honest, over 100-150 mile range in an EV for most people is
a waste when just a small 10kw generator can give unlimited
range at about 100 mpg.
>Oh as far as the Prius goes... do you think they'd sell
>better if they didn't look like a shoebox? I do. The only
>reason I would buy one is because it is a Hybrid.. it looks
>terrible to me. There is no earthly reason those cars have
>to look like putt putt mobiles. If they put some styling
>into them they'd sell a lot better. Maybe they should talk
>to Lotus!
Now that take b---s to say they could sell more Prii
when they can't produce enough for demand!! It's a larger,
more luxurious car than a GTI and driven the same way and
especially in stop and go traffic where the Prius runs just
as a series hybrid, will outdo the TDI easily. Kind of
screws with those who say series hybrids are not eff. BTW I
drive a Rabbit Diesel which gets as good mileage as the TDI,
maybe better. And many like the Prius' looks. So much better
than the boring cars we have had the last 15 yrs you can't
tell apart and nicely aerodynamic..
D+D is the same people who started, then a couple
yrs ago sold, ADC and who started building motor just for us
EV'ers when everyone else either irnored or refused to help
us so we should support them too. They kept the 6.7" line
and will build one anyway you want, shunt, sep ex or series
and probably compound too. They are identical to the ADC
6.7". I'm using an ES-31 or L91 in my EV, the same with mods
KillaCycle uses.
Jerry Dycus
>
>As far as uptake goes.. the PHEV -will- be the next
>revolution mate. You watch. The reason the Prius hybrid is
>not being grabbed by the hordes and masses are twofold:
>
>1) Its pretty homely
>2) It does not plug in and its mileage is only slightly
>better than MUCH better looking small cars. In fact, I have
>a Golf TDI that gets mileage that is -better- than the
>Prius.
>
>If it (a) looked cool and/or (b) plugged in they'd get a
>HUGE boost in sales.
>
>--T
>
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This sounds good ,,How many people do we have ?
Steve Clunn 1
>
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 08:52:10 EDT
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Last Call Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
>
> Would this be better/easier if we had a web based order form that
> interested folks could fill out and submit?
> Something that included all of the possible options and a brief
> description of what they do.
>
> I'd be happy to create the form and host it, if it would help.
>
> > yes, same here.
> > just need an amount, name, address.
> > I'm going with the kit option.
> > temp sensing is a must!
> > I have 10+1 12v gel cells so I'll need two relay
> > boards.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Brian B.
> >
> > --- John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/19/07 7:01 AM, "John RA Benson"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I'm happy to cough up a down payment to verify
> >> interest/confirm order and get
> >> > the ball rolling. Just need to know how much $ and
> >> where to send the dough.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> > JRAB
> >> >
> >> > On 4/19/07 12:04 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> We have gone one month and it is time to now to
> >> place the order. I have sent
> >> >> this on to any groups that I thought would be
> >> interested.
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
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But... I think both have their advantages and disadvantages.
LiFePo4 vs Lead
1500-2000 cycles (to 80% capacity) vs
300-500 cycles (to dead)
Less cold weather capacity lost more reduced cold weather
operation (ok, both need a heater, can't charge cold li-ion safely)
less pukerts effect more pukerts effect
and most importantly, weight.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is
about 400LBs vs about 1100lbs
I think the weight issue is the most dramatic, since it effects the
"energy required" side of the equation.
If we were talking about large format cells I think, not
coincidentially, we would see lead 4 times the weight of lithium.
I have never tried this. What if we took $lb/wh Would we come up with a
cross-chemistry constant?
ie .33 * 400 = 132 and .08 * 1100 = 88 . (Lead still wins!)
And someone will chime in with cyclelife adjustment.
If the two vehicles get the same wh/mile
.33 vs .32(4*.08) Ok now we are getting somewhere.
I think the combining of the reduced weight and longer cycle life will
eventually push us in this direction.
$/mile is gonna be like the timeslips at the dragstrips!
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Its not that easy to blow a ev fuse If your batteries are low or if the short
is not a good ( or bad) short it won't pull enough current to blow the fuse.
also when ( yes I didn't say if ) the curtis blowes it send full power to the
motor but with the motor spinning its not enough of a load ... Ok I shouldn't
make fun of the curtis controller as they carried me around for many years and
I'm still using one in my lawn mower , when I hit reply and got the below
message and not your post
Steve Clunn
>
> From: robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu AM 02:55:28 EDT
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: CURTIS CONTROLLER FIRES - AMMETER ACCURACY was Re: fuse size
>
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Can anyone comment on a motor choice such as this,
http://forkenswift.com/baker-12-in-motor.html
Would this be appropriate for a 4 speed manuel rear wheel drive car? Can
anyone comment on the availability of a motor like this? What kind of
size equipment it can be found in? What might I pay for a motor like
this at a salvage yard? Would it be useful to get a controller with it
or would that be to small? Thanks for your help.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of childreypa
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:53 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Forklift Motor Choice
Hey everyone,
I'm in the market for some forklift ot conveyor parts for my conversion.
At this point I have no criteria other than I know it has to be rather
large. Can someone please give me an idea of what I should be looking
for. Like as far as specific brands with good equipment, the criteria I
should have, and what voltage I can use with a motor that was for say a
48v forklift? My conversion should have speed in mind, the larger more
powerful motor the better. But what is the largest on the market that I
could get salvage? And I understand controllers are underrated for EV's
so I might have to use a contactor controller. But are there any
controllers that are hefty enough for an EV? I haven't decided on the
voltage to use but it will be dependent on my motor choice and
controller. Please give me some criteria to use as a reference. Thanks
Everyone.
Paul Childrey
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The project is in it's early stages and is designed to be plug and play.
There have been two vehicles converted and the in dyno testing they have
gotten better than a 26% improvement in gas mileage. So we are hopeful.
They have also converted a few UPS and FedEx trucks for which it works
well. Right now I am told there will be prototype motors available that
fit in pickups/SUV's in about 2 months. So I can let you know in 4
months how it is working.
I have started keeping a log of my conversion and it is in it's early
stages. www.hrivnak.com click on Hybrid. I have the battery boxes
deigned and installed along with one string of batteries. I will have
two strings of 12V AGM batteries, one down each side of the truck. I
have the trickle charger about to be installed and the main charge
should be in two weeks
As for cost Netgain says they are targeting an under 4000 conversion.
Personally I do not see how I can do mine for under $6000. Now I know
on my conversion I am spending extra on R&D and tend to be paying for
extra quality and extra batteries. Most tests have been on a 4 battery
48 volt system while I will have a 12 batteries and 72V, so I am hoping
for even more improvement.
If gas prices rise above $3.50 and this in-line motor concept does
deliver a 26 or better gain in mpg and we can get the conversion under
$4000 they will sell like hot cakes. We think it is possible but need
the hard numbers and a few test cases.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Storm
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 2:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EMIS (was Converting my F-150)
Hi, long-time lurker (10 years on and off?)...
I have tons of questions about this EMIS thing. Steve
Clunn, you're listed as a dealer. Anything details you
can give us? Haven't seen much about it except the PR
(which of course makes it sound like it's plug and
play.) Maybe I haven't looked in the right places.
Anyone hear cost ballparks? Obviously it'll need the
standard stuff and the interface to pull data from the
car's computer should be fairly easy as it looks to be
pulling generic info.
P.S. Steve, tell me how my Porsche is coming along
when you work on this weekend :)
>you can make it hybrid if it is an automatic:
>http://www.go-ev.com/p20070301_EMIS_Release.html
--- Dirk Ouellette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello. I'm new to the list and have a general
> question.
> . What can I do about converting my 2003 F-150 to a
> less eco abusive
> vehicle? I bought it mainly to haul my catarafts to
> and from the local
> whitewater rivers here, around Portland, Oregon. I
> have the oppurtunity
> to convert the truck to all electric using a local
> distributor of
> http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm, but this
> allows me only short
> trips and I must go 120- 150 miles in some round
> trips to rivers nearby.
> Suggestions please?
> Thanks, Dirk
> --
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Timothy Balcer wrote:
Why is it that when people speak up vigorously everyone calls it 'ranting'?
Because they don't know how to spell "raving"? :-) Seriously, I think
it's because it's easier to dismiss someone's impassioned debate if you
pretend it's just an emotional outburst (i.e. they're just ranting and
raving; therefore, they don't know what they're talking about and you
can ignore them).
The challenge is to present things in a calm reasonable manner, so that
people who disagree with you won't "tune you out" just from your tone,
without even listening to what you said.
Batteries are not the limiting factor..
Everything goes down in cost with mass production and innovation...
GM knows this...
Yes, I'm sure they do. They also know that they are not experts at any
of the technologies it takes to make a good EV; batteries, electric
motors, electronics for the drive system. They also know it is very rare
for large companies that are heavily invested in the status quo to ever
be able to move to a new technology.
So, there will be people inside GM pushing them hard to "fight rather
than switch", i.e. invest even more heavily in ICE technology. "We could
double the MPG and halve the cost of our existing ICEs if we put our
minds to it! C'mon guys, this is what we *know*! Not that 'lectric golf
cart nonsense!"
the theoretical capacity of most battery chemistry is much higher than
that per kg and the only reason better large format batteries have not
been developed to date is because no one needed them.
A lot more performance is possible in theory. In practice, the cost goes
up exponentially for each further increment you get. Customers aren't
willing to pay for the extreme measures needed to get close to the maximum.
You can see this clearly in electric motors. A 70% efficient motor is
$10, and they are made by the millions. An 80% efficient motor is $100,
and thousands are sold. A 90% efficient motor is $1000, but the number
of customers has shrunk into the hundreds. 99% efficiency is
theoretically possible, but no one will pay $10,000 for one.
By the way, Nickel is about 24% of the weight of a NiMH battery, so
the current value of the Nickel in the 1000lb EV95 battery pack, at
$23 per lb, is $5520... well within what I would say was reasonable
for a battery pack replacement.
That is for the nickel alone. I was pointing out that a very crude rule
of thumb is that the retail cost of a mass-produced product is roughly
its weight times the cost per pound of its constituent raw materials.
PS: 24% sounds exceptionally low. Where did you find that number?
Let alone, you would get the salvage value of the nickel in the
existing battery
Yes, when you have an old one to turn in first. For a new car, there is
no old battery to apply for this "credit".
Oh as far as the Prius goes... do you think they'd sell better if they
didn't look like a shoebox? I do.
The original Prius was introduced in 1997 for the Japanese market, to
suit their tastes. This design came to the US as the 2001-2003 Prius
virtually unchanged.
The current 2004-2007 Prius has changed a bit to suit US tastes, but is
still largely influenced by what sells elsewhere in the world.
Many of the aspects that people find "ugly" are in fact a reflection of
good engineering choices that are responsible for the car's roominess
and high mpg ratings.
The reason the Prius hybrid is not being grabbed by the
hordes and masses are twofold:
1) Its pretty homely
2) It does not plug in and its mileage is only slightly better
than MUCH better looking small cars.
Toyota is selling the Prius as fast as they can make them. They are
ramping up production as fast as they can, and there are are still
waiting lists.
Most people have zero interest in plugging it in -- indeed, they have
been told repeatedly in advertisements that "you don't have to plug it
in" is a *feature* of the car.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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because it is not wise to connect up the Zilla to
any more voltage than you need to.
When the Zilla is hooked up to a live pack; how does it snub the
inrush current? Or is it more the sudden voltage charge up more so
then a current issue?
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From: "Lee Hart"
I suspect it won't be long before I see one cast with pot metal (random scrap)
because aluminum is getting expensive.
joe wrote:
LOL - I don't think so, Lee! Diecast (pot metal) doesn't have very
good electrical properties, and the casting in the rotors has to have
that!
Consumers have *no* idea of the efficiency of the electric motors they
buy. They buy on price. If a pot metal rotor is cheaper, someone in
China or Mexico or India will start selling cheaper motors that are
"only 10% less efficient", and American companies will snap them up.
I've seen the blower motors in residential furnaces go from 80% to 75%
and now 70% as furnace manufacturer keep squeezing more and more cost
out of the motors. The electricity used by the motor doesn't count
toward the efficiency of a gas furnace, so they can make it as low as
they like. It's become the norm to run these motors at high slip, to
save the cost of a speed controller or multipole windings.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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