EV Digest 6681
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 71 VW Micro Bus
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Friday funny...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Marathon M12V105FT batteries any good?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Marathon M12V105FT batteries any good?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Excellent GM Volt video
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: The 1993 Eagle : Summit EV's on E-bay
by "Miller, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV in Forbidden Planet?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Bronco II EV prospects
by "Miller, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium batteries (was: Re: Excellent GM Volt video)
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Belktronix System Was: Beefing-up the DCDC on CivicWithACord!
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lithium batteries
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV in Forbidden Planet?
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Lithium batteries with 600 - 700W per kg
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Belktronix System Was: Beefing-up the DCDC on CivicWithACord!
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lithium batteries with 600 - 700W per kg
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium batteries with 600 - 700W per kg
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Belktronix System Was: Beefing-up the DCDC on CivicWithACord!
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Belktronix System Was: Beefing-up the DCDC on CivicWithACord!
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lithium batteries- now economies of scale
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jo and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Jo Prichard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 71 VW Micro Bus
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:49:32 -0700
>> Hi Lucile and All,
>> Microbus' are good EV gliders being fairly
>> light, carries a lot of weight for batteries and low cost
>> , EV parts readily available. With a few mods, can be
>> fairly aerodynamic too so you can get reasonable range at
>> higher speeds. It's better than any other Van, SUV choice
>> and many car gliders too.
>
>Is it a Microbus in this style or the older model?
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:VW_Type2_T3_Kombi.jpg
The old air cooled microbus windows in the roof side
model.
>
>Is it viable to convert a Kombi to an EV (cause they are
>beasts!) and if it's an option, generally what size engine
>would one need for it to be able to handle small hills and
>have a top speed of 40miles/hr?
Anything is possible but I wouldn't unless you need
all the space and nothing lighter was available. Just what
is your load?
>
>Here in South Africa, they are still selling new Citi
>Golf's (Rabbits) like mad so second hand donor vehicles
>and parts are not a problem. I've been thinking of
>converting one to an EV.
>
>http://www.vw.co.za/models/citi/
Better idea as it costs less to do. EV's cost by the
pound so the lighter weight you start with, the less cost,
better performance you will get per $, Rand or ?
What does the Kombi weigh? I believe the microbus'
were about 2,000 lbs, 950kg.
>
>But, if the Kombi is a good option because of the amount of
>space and weight it can cart I'd be much happier having an
>EV Microbus for the school run! I always presumed that the
>weight of the Kombi and the brick shape it has made it
>unsuitable as an EV? But if it's for short trips around the
>backroads all below 40 miles/hr should I be considering
>it?
The Kombi you showed has rather sharp leading
edges around the body front where the Bus is more round
allowing the air to go aft instead of blowing sideways the
flatter front of the Kombi does. The sides and rear are
clean so that part isn't bad.
If a Golf can do your job passenger wise, a light
trailer will give you all the carrying cap you might need.
That's what I do with my EV's and Rabbit diesel.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Jo Prichard
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee> Once you're making them by the million, all other costs (research,
Lee> development, tooling, factor setup, licensing, legal, etc.) shrink
Lee> to an insignificant fraction.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Except if you're an American drug manufacturers. (Sorry, couldn't resist...)
THEIR cost; not what they charge the customer. Ever notice how luxurious
their corporate headquarters are, and how many of their top executives
are on the lists of most highly paid?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ian Hooper wrote:
I have the opportunity to pick up some 2nd hand Marathon M12V105FT
batteries which have been swapped out of a power backup installation.
They look like they might not be good for high-current discharge...
http://www.sigmunky.com/Marathon_FT_e.pdf
They don't look too bad. Their high current characteristics aren't quite
as good as Hawkers, but still much better than floodeds.
This type of battery usually has a short cycle life. I didn't see it in
the specs, but I would guess 100-200 cycles. That's too low to buy them
new for an EV, but could be OK if you get them cheap enough.
They are 3.5 years old now, the specs claims 12-year design life but I'm
skeptical about how much life they might have left..
Oh, also, what would be a fair price to pay?
For used batteries, the "fair" price can only be determined *after* they
are tested. Many UPS supplies float their batteries at a constant 13.8v,
which slowly cooks them to death. After 3 years of this, they are often
mostly shot from loss of water and grid corrosion.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rob&Amy Smith wrote:
why not build a genset out of a wrecked Prius :-)
I seem to remember reading the engine weight was only 150lbs, though
I don't think this includes the transmission and electric PM motors
as I found another source putting the drive PM motor & casing at ~99lbs.
I have a Prius drive train, and it weighs about 300 lbs for the engine,
transaxle, both electric motors, inverter, and all engine-mounted
accessories.
how about an Insight or Prius based pusher trailer ala an
updated/cleaner http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/304. Still get 10-30kW
charging while cruising down the road at decent mileage and very low
emissions?
The way the Prius is designed, it would be a major engineering project
to separate the ICE from the transaxle and electric motors. They are
heavily integrated together and virtually useless individually.
So, your best bet with a Prius is to use it as a pusher trailer. It can
also charge your EV's batteries (if you happen to have a 250-273v pack).
However, even this will be a challenge, due to the number of computers
and associated parts that will have to be "tricked".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
how many can you get?
I think that will impact the price.
--- Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have the opportunity to pick up some 2nd hand
> Marathon M12V105FT
> batteries which have been swapped out of a power
> backup installation.
> Is anyone familiar with these batteries,
> particularly for EV use?
> They look like they might not be good for
> high-current discharge, but
> I thought I'd ask the experts (you guys). Here's the
> datasheet:
>
> http://www.sigmunky.com/Marathon_FT_e.pdf
>
> They are 3.5 years old now, the specs claims 12-year
> design life but
> I'm skeptical about how much life they might have
> left..
>
> Oh, also, what would be a fair price to pay?
>
> -Ian
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all for your comments and notes. I suppose I did get a bit
feisty there.. I've been arguing some of this with petro zealots who
don't listen to anything much in the way of calm facts, and so It
seems I forgot which audience I was talking with. :-)
Re: Prius and et al. In looking around at a number of Prius advocacy
groups, it seems nearly universal that they think the car is pretty
bad. Bad handling, bad looking, teeny trunk, and gets bad mileage for
what you would expect from a hybrid. -Despite- that, the reason most
people are buying them is not that they are a fantastic car.. they
want to be doing something about 'the problem' and they want to
encourage Toyota to keep creating Hybrids in a hope that something
better will come out of it. As far as my Golf TDI.. I bought it
because it was inexpensive at the time (16k and low miles), gets 55 on
the highway, and I can run it on homemade biodiesel. :)
Re: NiMH batteries. I got the ~24% by weight from a CMU paper on
'Green Design'. Admittedly, this is for a small cell, but the
proportions should remain relatively constant. I'll put the link
below. Also, it is worthwhile to note.. Nickel was $4 /lb in 2001, so
those NiMH batteries would not have been anywhere near as expensive.
The reason it has ramped up so much is because China and India are
demanding so much stainless steel and other alloys. As far as the
$2700/EV95 1000lb pack number that was a value figure. You won't be
able to buy them for that until they make a few hundred thousand of
them. And then more like it would be something like $4000, and perhaps
the new pack would be something like $7000. But that is still quite a
bit different than $20k+, and is well within reason, no?
http://www.ce.cmu.edu/GreenDesign/gd/education/Battery.pdf
Re: Zero interest in plugging it in. I disagree Lee, that people have
zero interest in plugging it in. They have little interest NOW,
perhaps, but once given the option to do so, they will rapidly change
their minds, especially if it is not -required- at first, which will
get the products into their hands. Who would decide not to plug in at
night if it meant saving $$ every time? Once you have a PHEV that can
do 50 miles/day on charge alone now you have an effective 100+ mpg car
and people would absolutely love that. I wouldn't be surprised if most
people found that they didn't need to use the ICE except on the
weekends, and say to themselves 'hey.. maybe I could get an all
electric for commuting'
It's all about marketing, which is not the art of finding out 'what
people want' and giving it to them, it is the art of Telling People
What They Want and getting them to buy it. Case in point, The Hummer.
It was not until they had put many millions of dollars into ad copy
that Hummers actually started to sell reasonably well. That was
because most people were thinking "My God.. that thing is too big!".
GM pushed the 'safety and convenience' angle as well as the 'Machismo'
angle very, very hard and brought up their numbers.
When GM says people didn't want it, it means GM didn't want it and was
not interested in marketing it to people so they -would- want it.
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't find the listing on e-bay do you have a link?
When Chrysler took over Jeep in the early '90 they brought back the
Eagle name; one of their first cars featured all wheel turning, and I
believe that they had all-wheel drive but they were luxury sports cars
not like the earlier jacked up 4WD eagles built by AMC
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Powers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:03 AM
To: ev
Subject: The 1993 Eagle : Summit EV's on E-bay
I looked at the picture and description, and without seeing them, I am
guessing that they are DC drive cars. Definately an old BC-20 in the
picture. The controller looks like a 500-550 A Curtis. Can't see the
motor or tell what it is (but I am thinking ADC 8-9"). 120 V in a 10 x
12 Array. Has anyone actually looked at these cars? One looks like a
little better setup than the other. Not that I need another EV, but I
am curious what they have in them at only $5k current bid.
They look to be very decent condition and one has solar on the roof
....
There is an enclosed box next to the controller. I wonder what that
is?
Now, Eagle. Isn't that the old AMC, sold off and then remarketed
under a new name? I haven't seen an Eagle in a very long time ... I
thought they went under in 1986, but these are 93's ???. I know I had
lots of issues finding parts for my old AMC that I finally gave up on in
1997 (because of the parts hunt). I assume, there are absolutely no
parts available for these cars. Am I wrong? Are there still a few in
some junk yard somewhere ???
Steve
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:25 AM
Subject: EV in Forbidden Planet?
> I recently revisited this 1950s Sci Fi. Is the utility driven at high
> speed by Robbie supposed to be an EV? This movie has some interesting
> concepts for those who have not seen it before.
> David
>
> Yeah! Great movie! I'm guessing that the battery issue had been solved
in their depiction of the future? Great little EV's running loose there in
the movie. The Krell Power House was big enough to handle ALL the EV's on
their planet!
Just give Robbie a A123 cell and ask him for several hundred more!!
Scene ya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:18:43 -0700
From: john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Lithium batteries- now economies of scale
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Well when someone can figure out why a toaster oven costs the same as a hard
drive, please explain it to all of us. The
cost of computer components seems to follow a different set of laws, and thank
goodness for it. Nevertheless our
knowledge of physics/chemistry is improving at the nano level, and our ability
to make new materials is too, so maybe,
just maybe there are some breakthroughs out there in new chemistries. Old rules
still hold valid for well-known
chemistries of course, and I'm pretty sure the sun will come up tomorrow. The
amount of money at stake has a wonderful
effect on R&D too. One factor folks don't always consider is the human side-
nano is hot now and the bright kids are
headed for it. Old tech R&D shops may not get even the middling students. If
you were offered jobs at Exide and A123
which would you take?
Jf
Timothy Balcer wrote:
> On 4/19/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> > I think the situation with the car companies and EV's is exactly like
>> > the computer hard drive market.
>>
>> No; the physics are completely different.
>>...
>
> Well, that assumes a static chemistry, no?
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