EV Digest 6712
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Newest Curtis controllers OK to buy now for 120V EV? Or, go with
Zilla controller?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electric Aircraft
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re:Electric Aircraft
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: DOD question - new/old debate
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Electric Aircraft
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Electric Aircraft
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
by Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Borg Warner T5 transmission 1995 S10
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Upstate NY EV Groups?
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Broke college student needing some experience
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric Aircraft
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: DOD question - new/old debate
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) re: electric aircraft
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric Aircraft
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: electric aircraft
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) RE: Electric Aircraft
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
robert mat wrote:
There were posts on several forums about "lots" of Curtis controller
failures on electric vehicles...
Curtis controllers are a commodity product, built for a low price. As
such, they have relatively small design margins (i.e. it doesn't take
much over their ratings to blow them).
There is also a tendency for people to skimp on their EV controller,
making it the 'weak link' in their system (i.e. they run their
controller right *at* its maximum ratings, with no margin for error).
There is also a tendency not to cool the controller adequately, or mount
it in places where it gets wet. Both of these lower reliability.
The result is that they are easy to break.
- Are the newest Curtis 120V (72V-120V) 400A
controllers better built now, so they don't blow up at
low speeds? How about the 120V-144V model, 550A model,
is that a "solid" controller? Are the newer models the
ones that make the low-speed whine-whistle-buzz
sounds?
In the same vehicle, at 120v and 400a, the 1231 holds up better than the
1221 simply because it has more design margin. But, that assumes you run
the 1231 at 120v and 400a (not 144v and 500a).
If you "push it" right to its limits, it too will not last as long.
- Our "non-whistling" (12+ year old model)120V 400A
Curtis failed at low speed, while moving from a stop,
reversing. Should it be equipped with a precharge
circuit, to prevent this from happening? (This
controller failure doesn't appear to be in the power
section; it may be in the controls section.) Is a
failure likely to happen again, after we repair it?
12+ years is pretty good for modern electronics. Frankly, most things
aren't built to last that long. Most people prefer to buy "throwaway"
products. By buying them, they encourage manufacturers to produce them.
- What is the bullet-proof 120V controller for an S-15
EV, in your experience?
Cafe Electric's Zillas have been superbly reliable so far. But, you pay
more for them, of course.
The older GE EV1 controllers also have a proven track record for very
long life. But I don't think they are making them any more; all you get
are used ones, where someone else may have "used up" most of its life.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Martin,
There's an EV group that meets near Honeoye Falls. In 2004 I attended
one of their meetings and was surprised by the turnout. That's a little
closer to you, but still about 60 miles from Alfred. Here's a link to
their webpage... http://www.electricgrandprix.org/NYSEAA/NYSEAA.htm
I'm about 100 miles east of you.
-Dave
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
On 4/29/07, mclTunes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are there any active EV groups near Binghamton or Ithaca NY? For that
matter is there a directory somewhere of EV groups?
Thanks...
-- Mark Lepkowski
If you find any let me know!
I'm in Alfred, NY which is south of Rochester and west of Ithaca.
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
http://pages.prodigy.net/noela/linksto.htm
> Subject: Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
>
> On 4/29/07, mclTunes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Are there any active EV groups near Binghamton or Ithaca NY? For
> that
> > matter is there a directory somewhere of EV groups?
---
Steve
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi mike young here I drive solectria ev's.I am in newark ny which is about
30 mi east of rochester and 45 mi nw of ithica.It looks like they havent
been having meetings of the eaa near rochester much since 2004.
Mike young phone 315 331 5336
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
Hi Mark,
The short answer is no. It's practically an EV black hole around here.
The long answer is there should be, but the hills and weather are often
presumed to be too difficult for EV usage. Given that, I'm just not sure
if there are enough ACTIVE people concentrated within a reasonable 50 mile
radius to sustain a viable group. Maybe there are and I don't know it.
I'm just outside Ithaca. This neck of the woods is very progressive with
regard to other topics yet I only know of 3 or 4 electric vehicles up
here. One of them is mine. I know little of the Binghamton area other than
a high school down there has a couple of electrics. There could be more.
I'm still fairly new to the area.
In my travels I've found the EVDL to be just as effective in locating EV
people as the Electric Auto Association (EAA). Sometimes there are
non-EAA-affiliated websites or clubs that can help you out. If you can
find any sort of organization you'll always find others who surprise you.
Here's the link to the EAA... http://www.eaaev.org
I have a directory of clubs and organizations on my site on this page...
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/defaultlinksb.asp?tree=536
As I write this I'm in the garage sitting in front of my electric car
getting it ready for summer. You and anyone else in the area are always
welcomed to contact me offlist... maybe even stop by?
Best regards,
-Dave Stensland
Slaterville Springs, NY
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
mclTunes wrote:
Are there any active EV groups near Binghamton or Ithaca NY? For that
matter is there a directory somewhere of EV groups?
Thanks...
-- Mark Lepkowski
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Start a new chapter, there is a lot of interest to do so in the area, we
just need someone that is willing to be an officer. I can help.
- Will
Electric Auto Association
Membership
323 Los Altos Drive
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike young
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:27 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
Hi mike young here I drive solectria ev's.I am in newark ny which is about
30 mi east of rochester and 45 mi nw of ithica.It looks like they havent
been having meetings of the eaa near rochester much since 2004.
Mike young phone 315 331 5336
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Upstate NY EV Groups?
> Hi Mark,
>
> The short answer is no. It's practically an EV black hole around here.
>
> The long answer is there should be, but the hills and weather are often
> presumed to be too difficult for EV usage. Given that, I'm just not sure
> if there are enough ACTIVE people concentrated within a reasonable 50 mile
> radius to sustain a viable group. Maybe there are and I don't know it.
>
> I'm just outside Ithaca. This neck of the woods is very progressive with
> regard to other topics yet I only know of 3 or 4 electric vehicles up
> here. One of them is mine. I know little of the Binghamton area other than
> a high school down there has a couple of electrics. There could be more.
> I'm still fairly new to the area.
>
> In my travels I've found the EVDL to be just as effective in locating EV
> people as the Electric Auto Association (EAA). Sometimes there are
> non-EAA-affiliated websites or clubs that can help you out. If you can
> find any sort of organization you'll always find others who surprise you.
> Here's the link to the EAA... http://www.eaaev.org
>
> I have a directory of clubs and organizations on my site on this page...
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/defaultlinksb.asp?tree=536
>
> As I write this I'm in the garage sitting in front of my electric car
> getting it ready for summer. You and anyone else in the area are always
> welcomed to contact me offlist... maybe even stop by?
>
> Best regards,
> -Dave Stensland
> Slaterville Springs, NY
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
>
>
> mclTunes wrote:
>> Are there any active EV groups near Binghamton or Ithaca NY? For that
>> matter is there a directory somewhere of EV groups?
>>
>> Thanks...
>> -- Mark Lepkowski
>>
>>
>>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
First, turn off "send in html and text" in your mail program. You want
"send in text only" so we can read the message easily.
I am in california, so I can't help. but I have been on this list long
enough to hear ways to do it on the cheap. Others have experiance and
will probably chime in.
but...
www.surpluscenter.com may be a good source for pieces pennys on the
dollar in addition to ebay.
Also, local motor shops sometimes have things, but usually not DC
and we are not considering AC motors, because, well we would have to
make the AC :-(
Get a light glider vehicle, VW, geo, go to the local golf courses for
used floodie batteries, build your own contactor controller.
Do not underestimate the resources that may be available thru the school!
Use a bad-boy charger.
Being an ME not an EE i will assume i should try to explain some terms
floodies: lead acid batteries which you have to put water in.
bad-boy charger: This is a transformer, light dimmer and some diodes,
about as dumb as the box it is in.
a few seconds on google finds this:
http://www.hackaday.com/2006/11/11/bad-boy-charger/
A little searching and you will get a good listing of this things short
comings, but for used floodies, it can work.
Your pack will need to be the correct voltage. about 160V end of charge
which is about 13 12V batteries, maybe 12. what we call a 144V pack or
156V pack. But since we are talking about 6Volters this would be about
25 batteries. (that may be an issue, they are heavy)
Contactor controller
this connects the motor to the batteries in various configurations.
lets say we had 12 batteries, we wire them to contactors such that we
can connect the batteries as 4 sets in parallel of 3 in series this is
36V, then when we switch the 1st set of contactors this becomes 3 sets
of 4 for 48V then 2 sets of 6 for 72V etc.
often there is a resistor in the circuit with a contactor that can
bypass it giving you a softer start.
To the outside observer, it looks like you are shifting a transmission.
here is a simple example
http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/cntctcon.asp
And of course, buy a used EV
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/
either way, you have come to the right place, welcome.
Jeff shanab
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/747
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better hurry up and get it built. There is a group of people, the same
people that flew a aircraft around the world, that is building a electric
aircraft to fly around the world. They contacted Etek for building eight
motors to turn eight props.
There method is to use all eight props with Li-ion cells to take off and
than throttle back for at a very low rpm. The top of the wing, as large or
larger area than some wings will have solar cells to provide power at that
time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Aircraft
> Focus on the batteries and put aside any drive system design efforts at
> first.
>
> A very small two-seat airplane needs about 65 HP. This is 746x65 ~ 50 kW.
>
> You would like to fly for about an hour, so this is about a 50 kW-hr pack.
>
> The very highest energy $tate-of-the-art Li-Ion cell$ (that will turn
> into flamethrowers given the opportunity,) approach 200 W-hr/kg. Your
> 50 kW-hr pack will weigh at least 250 kg = 550 lbs.
>
> Now you understand why there are not any electric airplanes.
>
> You could possibly do this with a LongEZ by giving up the
> passenger seat.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> At 11:01 AM 4/29/2007, you wrote:
> >I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the great things you guys are
> >building. You guys really seem to know what you are doing. I am
> >building an electric aircraft and am hoping someone might help me
> >figure a few things out. I have three motor options I think will
> >work for my prototype. The Briggs+Stratton Etek brushless, the Perm
> >PMG-132 w/bushes, and the Lemco Lem-200 w/brushes.
> >
> >Because the Etek is brushless is it quieter? Is it more energy
> >efficient? Does anyone know the efficiency % of the new brushless Etek?
> >Which motor will drain the batteries the quickest. One that runs on
> >72volts and 110Amps or one using 48volts and 165amps?
> >
> >The motor will only need to run at full power for the first
> >2mins. After that it will mostly run at percentages around 65% to
> >80% and occasionally at 0 to descend and full power to climb.
> >
> >Are there any battery packs available commercially that weigh less
> >then 50 lbs that could power such a set up for at least
> >30min? LiPo? A123? Could someone show me how to calculate how much
> >battery power I will need? Can I run these batteries all the way
> >down or do I need to recharge before they are completely
> >drained. Thanks for the help and great message board. -Mike
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and
> >industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This reminded of something that may be inexpensive and accurate for our
use. Newer cycling computers can be purchased that have altimiter and it
is very common for them to have accumulated climb in feet and
programable wheel circumference and a single magnet pickup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this 2 seater, personal mini, or 1/4 scale?
You got me curious so i looked on goggle and found a cessna appears to
get about 18mpg. 5-9 gallons/hour at 110mph. At 7 gallons/hour that is
about 300Miles with 156Lbs of fuel (counting some for reserve.)
Does anyone know the conversion from mpg to wh/mile ?
In a car that got around18, I get 400wh/mile. that would be about 100
miles to 20% SOC (whoa, at 110mph that is close to the estimate given)
550lb - 75b(1/2 tank of gas) is 475.
I bet if the airspeed was more like 80mph this may be feasable in a few
years. Besides, my car gets horrible ev mileage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
746 Watts/HP x 65 HP is about 50,000 watts.
There are marvelous batteries out there, but there are no miracle batteries.
I gave an example of one of the very most efficient airplanes (the
Long EZ designed by Burt Rutan) that would make an hour long flight
on the very best possible available rechargeable batteries. Making
the project larger or smaller won't alter the physics. You might make
a two or three hour flight going about the same distance, but at a
slower speed.
Carrying the extra weight of batteries in a car does not make a huge
impact on the distance the car will travel because rolling resistance
(the amount of HP required to keep the car rolling, not including
aero drag) is small. The equivalent on an airplane is "induced drag".
It takes a lot more HP on an airplane to hold a pound up than is does
to make a car roll.
The typical "bounty" for weight on a commercial airplane is about
$100 per pound. That is, you will gladly increase the cost of the
airplane $100 to get rid of a pound. this is because the airplane
will burn many times more than $100 worth of fuel to keep that pound
up in the air over its service life. It is also a pound less cargo it
can carry for revenue on each trip.
Run the airplane on biodiesel instead.
Bill Dube'
At 01:26 PM 4/29/2007, you wrote:
It's an Ultralight aircraft called a PPG. Very high lift and low
weight. I am only using motors in the 8-15hp range. Check out
youtube http://youtube.com/watch?v=s3pgGDQIgjM and
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iVN_qEtBqjg to see a flying
prototype. What about the new LiPo batterys? Do they not out
preform Li-Ion Batteries? Could you explain "746x65 ~ 50 kW?"
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Aircraft
Focus on the batteries and put aside any drive system design efforts
at first.
A very small two-seat airplane needs about 65 HP. This is 746x65 ~ 50 kW.
You would like to fly for about an hour, so this is about a 50 kW-hr pack.
The very highest energy $tate-of-the-art Li-Ion cell$ (that will
turn into flamethrowers given the opportunity,) approach 200
W-hr/kg. Your 50 kW-hr pack will weigh at least 250 kg = 550 lbs.
Now you understand why there are not any electric airplanes.
You could possibly do this with a LongEZ by giving up the passenger seat.
Bill Dube'
At 11:01 AM 4/29/2007, you wrote:
>I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the great things you guys
are >building. You guys really seem to know what you are doing. I
am >building an electric aircraft and am hoping someone might help
me >figure a few things out. I have three motor options I think
will >work for my prototype. The Briggs+Stratton Etek brushless,
the Perm >PMG-132 w/bushes, and the Lemco Lem-200 w/brushes.
>
>Because the Etek is brushless is it quieter? Is it more
energy >efficient? Does anyone know the efficiency % of the new
brushless Etek?
>Which motor will drain the batteries the quickest. One that runs
on >72volts and 110Amps or one using 48volts and 165amps?
>
>The motor will only need to run at full power for the
first >2mins. After that it will mostly run at percentages around
65% to >80% and occasionally at 0 to descend and full power to climb.
>
>Are there any battery packs available commercially that weigh
less >then 50 lbs that could power such a set up for at
least >30min? LiPo? A123? Could someone show me how to calculate
how much >battery power I will need? Can I run these batteries all
the way >down or do I need to recharge before they are
completely >drained. Thanks for the help and great message board. -Mike
>________________________________________________________________________
>Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage
and >industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
________________________________________________________________________
Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and
industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
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It's an Ultralight aircraft called a PPG. Very high lift and low
weight. I am only using motors in the 8-15hp range. Check out youtube
search electric ppg to see a flying prototype. What about the new LiPo
batterys? Do they not out perform Li-Ion Batteries? Could you explain
"746x65 ~ 50 kW?"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s3pgGDQIgjM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iVN_qEtBqjg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Aircraft
Focus on the batteries and put aside any drive system design efforts at
first.
A very small two-seat airplane needs about 65 HP. This is 746x65 ~ 50
kW.
You would like to fly for about an hour, so this is about a 50 kW-hr
pack.
The very highest energy $tate-of-the-art Li-Ion cell$ (that will turn
into flamethrowers given the opportunity,) approach 200 W-hr/kg. Your
50 kW-hr pack will weigh at least 250 kg = 550 lbs.
Now you understand why there are not any electric airplanes.
You could possibly do this with a LongEZ by giving up the passenger
seat.
Bill Dube'
At 11:01 AM 4/29/2007, you wrote:
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the great things you guys are
>building. You guys really seem to know what you are doing. I am
>building an electric aircraft and am hoping someone might help me
>figure a few things out. I have three motor options I think will >work
for my prototype. The Briggs+Stratton Etek brushless, the Perm >PMG-132
w/bushes, and the Lemco Lem-200 w/brushes.
Because the Etek is brushless is it quieter? Is it more energy
>efficient? Does anyone know the efficiency % of the new brushless
Etek?
Which motor will drain the batteries the quickest. One that runs on
72volts and 110Amps or one using 48volts and 165amps?
The motor will only need to run at full power for the first >2mins.
After that it will mostly run at percentages around 65% to >80% and
occasionally at 0 to descend and full power to climb.
Are there any battery packs available commercially that weigh less
>then 50 lbs that could power such a set up for at least >30min? LiPo?
A123? Could someone show me how to calculate how much >battery power I
will need? Can I run these batteries all the way >down or do I need to
recharge before they are completely >drained. Thanks for the help and
great message board. -Mike
________________________________________________________________________
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