EV Digest 6716
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(I've always loved EVs since I was a kid, Tiger Trucks)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(UK electric CV manufacturer Modec home delivery vans)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Clunn's 9th annual EV Rally @ Okeechobee auto-parts store)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(Good News Garage seeking donors for EV conversions)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric Aircraft
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) What makes Li so attractive in batteries?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: What makes Li so attractive in batteries?
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: HARD TIME ON CURTIS WARRANTY CLAIM? (WAS Re: Newest Curtis
controllers OK to buy now for 120V EV? Or, go with Zilla controller?)
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: $5000 dragster challenge at PODC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: ADC 6.7 redline and how to measure it.
by Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Any experience(s) with this company can repair Curtis controllers?
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(I've always loved EVs since I was a kid, Tiger Trucks)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070428/BIZ/704280323
Electric-power trend fuels locally owned business, Buzz
Equipment Times Herald-Record April 28, 2007
[Times Herald-Record/MICHELE HASKELL By Heather Yakin
http://images.recordonline.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=TH&Date=20070428&Category=BIZ&ArtNo=704280323&Ref=AR&MaxW=400&title=1&border=0
Joseph Conway at his shop, Kantrowitz Brothers Garage in
Woodridge. Conway started his own company, Buzz Equipment,
selling Tiger Trucks.]
Woodridge The first electric vehicle that Joseph Conway
tinkered with was the go-cart his family had when he was a kid.
Now, as the world has started to come to the conclusion that the
petroleum-product-powered internal combustion engine may no
longer be the way to go, Conway is selling electric trucks for
off-road uses.
He's operating that business Buzz Equipment, which also sells
heavy-duty chargers and other equipment to the transit industry
out of an office in Barryville and his auto shop, Kantrowitz
Brothers Garage, in Woodridge. That explains the funky
14-passenger E-Bus it looks like the sort of passenger trolley
you'd see at Disney World parked next to the garage.
In fact, Disney's where Conway saw his first Tiger Truck, on
display near a safari-themed ride, several years ago.
"I'd never seen a truck that small," Conway said.
About three years ago, as the green movement gained momentum,
Conway and his brother, John, looked into Tiger Trucks again.
They figured that more colleges, businesses and municipalities
might be looking into alternatively powered vehicles to use on
their campuses.
"We got in touch with them, and we became a dealer," he said.
Tiger Trucks sells fully electric-powered trucks, regular gas
versions and hybrids. Anything Tiger sells, you can order through
Buzz.
"They're zero-maintenance. The only thing is, every now and then
you have to change the batteries," Conway said. "The big thing I
love about them is: they're quiet. There's no emissions from
them. There's no odors associated with them."
Those qualities, he said, made them attractive to the Center for
Discovery. The nonprofit serves children with developmental
disabilities. The center's own green initiatives have been driven
by theories that many of these kids can be sensitive to loud
noises or strong odors.
Conway sold the center two Tiger Trucks: a small one for trash
pick-up, and a larger one with a dump bed for their farm.
"I've always loved electric cars," Conway said. "Ever since I was
a kid."
On the Web: www.buzz-equipment.com
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(UK electric CV manufacturer Modec home delivery vans)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/26-04-07_4
First UK-built electric trucks go to work for Tesco and
Sainsburys 26th April 2007
The UK electric CV manufacturer Modec, exhibiting this week on
stand 4371 at the NEC Commercial Vehicle Show, has announced that
Tesco.com will the first to run a fleet of its battery-electric
home delivery vans. Tesco has so far bought 15 of the vehicles,
and this week put some of them to work from its new store in
Shrewsbury. The new trucks can carry a two tonne payload, have a
100 mile range and a top speed of 50mph, all on one overnight
charge.
Fellow UK electric vehicle specialist Smiths Industries is
showing a battery-electric 3.5 tonne Ford Transit at the CV Show;
Sainsbury's has just ordered eight of these vehicles for its home
delivery fleet. Meanwhile, TNT Express has confirmed an initial
order of 50 units of Smith's Industries Newton 7.5-tonne
battery-electric truck after a 6-month trial in London. Five
additional trucks are to be put on trial in continentinental
Europe, beginning in Rotterdam.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(Clunn's 9th annual EV Rally @ Okeechobee auto-parts store)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2007/04/29/m1c_slcars_0429.html
Plugged-in auto buffs By Jason Schultz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer Sunday, April 29, 2007
[Click-2-Listen
http://c2l.newsworthyaudio.com/Partners/COXNewspapers/C2lPlayer.aspx?PartnerKey=COXNewspapers&SiteKey=palmbeachpost&ArticleGUID=palmbeachpost_local_news_epaper_2007_04_29_m1c_slcars_0429&ArticleURL=http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/cnishared/newsworthy/palmbeachpost//local_news/epaper/2007/04/29//palmbeachpost_local_news_epaper_2007_04_29_m1c_slcars_0429.mp3&PartnerSpecificParam=AdUrl=http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/pbp.cni/$PAGE%23ap%40click2listen%23pg%40$PAGE%23sub%40$SUB%23fromsite%40palmbeachpost%23
]
FORT PIERCE What could make a gleaming white Lamborghini with
flames painted down both sides even sweeter? If it could drive
through a swamp and didn't need any gas.
Such an electric car was one of about a dozen that owners showed
off Saturday afternoon at the ninth annual Electric Vehicle Rally
at an auto-parts store.
Tom and Yvette Sines of Okeechobee built their fourth homemade
electric car from the body of a 1988 Lamborghini.
"This started for us 30 years ago, during the long gas lines of
the 1970s," Tom Sines said. "If somebody doesn't do something,
it's never going to get done. We're going over there (to the
Middle East) shooting people to get oil."
The cars on display at the Advance Auto Parts on Okeechobee Road
ranged from the luxurious, such as the Sines' sports car and two
Porsches, to a beat-up Toyota Corolla.
All were converted by their owners to be plugged into outlets and
run without gasoline.
Steve Clunn, a member of the Grassroots Electric Vehicles group
based in Florida and Nevada, started organizing the rallies
nearly a decade ago, saying he became motivated by the first Gulf
War, in the early 1990s.
"I did it for patriotic reasons, to try to help my country reduce
its dependency on foreign oil," Clunn said. "Every gallon I don't
burn is one less gallon burdening the taxpayers."
Not all of the owners who brought out their electric cars were
strictly enthusiasts.
Paul Liddle of World Class Exotics in West Palm Beach makes his
living converting luxury cars, from Porsches to Rolls-Royces, to
run on electricity. The conversions can cost as much as $425,000,
he said.
Liddle said his Porsche 912 has more power at lower speeds than
it did when it ran on gas, but loses power as it reaches higher
speeds.
It also can run only about 30 to 40 miles before needing to be
recharged.
Sines said the short range of electric cars prevents greater
demand.
He made his Lamborghini as light as possible to provide more
space for batteries so it could go farther.
He also gave it big tires so it could drive through the swampland
around Okeechobee.
"This thing will walk over a swamp like it isn't even there,"
Sines said.
Turnout at the event was light, but several of those who showed
up said what they saw was enough to make them want to buy an
electric car.
"I will probably buy one within the next two years," said Allan
Miller, a computer business owner from Miami who said he decided
to buy an electric car after watching an environmental movie last
week, and came to the rally to explore them.
Miller said he also is talking to some of the car owners at the
rally about trying to get an outdoor electric outlet installed at
his church on Key Biscayne.
Until there are more places to charge their cars, Miller said,
few people will follow his lead and buy them.
Miller said: "No one will buy a car that will leave them
stranded."
Copyright © 2007, The Palm Beach Post. All rights reserved.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(Good News Garage seeking donors for EV conversions)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.happynews.com/news/4302007/good-news-garage-green-car-pilot-program.htm
Press Release Updated: 4/30/2007 Burlington, Vermont
Good News Garage in partnership with Institute for Spiritual
Development Men's Group (sponsored by the Sisters of Mercy) will
be converting a gasoline-powered car to a 100% battery powered
plug-in electric car. This pilot project is an exciting
opportunity for the Good News Garage to explore the possibility
of providing alternative fuel vehicles in the future.
To make this pilot program work, Good News Garage is seeking a
donation of one of the following cars: Toyota Corrola, Nissan
Sentra, VW Jetta or Golf, Saturn, Honda Civic or Accord. The body
and the manual transmission must be in good condition. Several
major parts will be removed to make room for the electric
components. So, if your car has problems with any of the
following, that is okay. - motor, radiator, exhaust, or gas
tank.
Good News Garage will tow the donated car for free and the donor
will receive the fair market value of the car as a tax
deduction.
If you are interested in donating to help fund the project or in
learning more, contact Carmen George, Marketing and Development
Manager, at 802-864-3667 ext 13. Advisors to the project include
staff from: Bike Recycle Vermont, The University of Vermont,
Local Motion, and Mark Furnari.
Good News Garage is a non-profit garage that accepts donated
cars, trucks and vans, repairs them and provides them to
qualified low-income families in VT, NH, MA, and CT.
Donors receive a tax deduction for their car donation. Donating
a car is easy. Either donate by calling Good News Garage
toll-free at 877-GIVE-AUTO/ 877-448-3288 or donate your car
online at [ http://www.goodnewsgarage.org ]. All vehicle
donations receive a tax deduction.
© 2007 HappyNews.com
===
http://www.goodnewsgarage.org/about_us/locations/
Connecticut [...]
Robert Macaione, Vehicle Processor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
860-218-2970 ext. 3#
Massachusetts [...]
Bob Buckley, Program Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
New Hampshire [...]
Kevin Hampton, Vehicle Processor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Vermont [...]
Mike Blair, Garage Service Manager
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
802-864-3667 ext. 25
[...]
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--- Begin Message ---
Nice :)
Here is something even more out there though:
http://www.dynalifter.com/
On 4/30/07, Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/solong/
of course, this carries no humans, but still interesting.
-sandman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thinking out loud here.
Lithium provides the current best battery chemistry. Realizing that other
elements in the same group of the periodic table tend to have similar
properties, I wonder if sodium or potassium compounds provide similar
performance and only lose out in the weight department or if the chemistry
of the compounds they form (e.g. NaFePO4) is somehow deficient in other ways
as well.
Pointers appreciated (offline is fine - this seems only marginally of
interest to this group).
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You should start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochemistry
And then pick up a book on inorganic chem and Electro chem. It's one
of those complicated answers to a simple question. :)
On 4/30/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just thinking out loud here.
Lithium provides the current best battery chemistry. Realizing that other
elements in the same group of the periodic table tend to have similar
properties, I wonder if sodium or potassium compounds provide similar
performance and only lose out in the weight department or if the chemistry
of the compounds they form (e.g. NaFePO4) is somehow deficient in other ways
as well.
Pointers appreciated (offline is fine - this seems only marginally of
interest to this group).
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roger,
Reason for my questions? I'm an info-seeker, and I
want a 4-wheeled EV that is as robust as my modded
2-wheelers.
We have high humidity in Burnaby, and I noticed "rain"
inside the hood of the S-15, after the morning sun
hits the hood.
The Curtis controller failed after I a few dead-starts
in second and third gear. It was a sunny day, and
Vancouver's Al Gore, Dr. Fred Bass, had just looked at
it at the gallery rally, before I drove to another two
errands; it failed after moving an inch in reverse,
after a hour-long park, with no charging involved.
The day prior, though, was a 30 cm. rain-day, and I
drove the S-15 a lot. So, highway spray could have
seeped in, I suppose. But wouldn't Randy at CANEV
already have built rain-spray into the chosen location
for the controller?
Our battery experiments and charging are well within
industry standard procedures per battery, after the
batteries were installed in the S-10.
The KSI also worries me, even though the voltage was
only 135V (tested) when the controller failed. One of
our group thought the inbound voltage should be lower.
So, we have several suspects in our new movie,
WHO KILLED THE CURTIS CONTROLLER IN THE ELECTRIC CAR?
Rob
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> robert mat wrote:
>
> > Now, his ontrollers failed, didn't blow up, or
> burn
> > up, while the truck wasn't used. Reason for this?
>
> I'm with Steve on this: I'd suspect that the
> controllers saw too high of
> a peak voltage while the truck was charging. I
> don't see a max voltage
> spec in the Curtis literature, though they do state
> the KSI input will
> take from 8V to 1.5x the max voltage. For a 144V
> max controller this
> suggests the KSI input will survive over 200V, but I
> strongly doubt that
> Curtis used bus caps with more than a 200V rating
> for the power stage.
>
> The other possibility is humidity; the Tofino area
> can be quite wet, and
> if the case seals on the Curtis were a bit leaky its
> life would be
> shortened.
>
> Of course, failure in less than a month sounds more
> like infant
> mortality than a moisture problem (which would tike
> time to work its
> damage). The good news is that if a new controller
> dies this quickly,
> it is an easy warranty claim.
>
> > Also said his truck drew up to 435A or so,
> according
> > to a sophisticated digital ammeter. The Tofino
> area is
> > flat, too.
>
> The Tofino I've been to isn't. In town is
> especially hilly, but if you
> go more than a couple km south on the highway you're
> also going to hit
> some hills.
>
> > Interestingly, Baird's new electric small car is
> 96V.
> > Is it fair to say that, at 96V, the Curtis
> controller
> > is robust?
>
> No, not unless it is a model with a higher max
> voltage than 96V ;^>
>
> I don't know which model controller he has, but when
> I drove his Echo I
> did notice that he has a 'C' model (whistles at low
> throttle), so I
> would guess it is a 1221C and rated for up to 120V.
>
> Not sure why you are suddenly so concerned with the
> Curtis reliability;
> your S10 was converted by CanEV, and the 1221 lasted
> 12 years. This
> seems to indicate that Spencer's experience is not
> due to shoddy
> workmanship by CanEV (as anyone who knows Randy and
> has seen his work
> would already know), and is not because Curtis
> controllers are
> inherently unreliable.
>
> Modern controllers do depend on internal components
> that do wear out
> over time (especially electrolytic caps), so it
> should not come as a
> surprise that they will not last forever. However,
> you might want to
> consider carefully if anything you have been doing
> with your battery
> experiments might have contributed to the
> controller's failure. What
> was your nominal pack voltage? What ws the peak
> charge voltage? Etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
Photo link: Using the world's first licensed
Revived Battery electric pickup truck
for everyday errandshttp://my-ev-diary.blogspot.com/
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Hi Jack, Damon and All,
You all are making CC's much more complicated,
expensive than needed.
Cheaper ways are building a manual one just
buying some car starter motor contacts to truck ones for
higher power CC's. Using copper discs, bars, preferably
silver plated, to join them allows you to build a great CC
for under $100. These can be rotary like on a disc/golf cart
style or a drum style or a straight sliding arrangement too.
Even better is they can be repaired in under 10 minutes for
a couple $ instead of waiting for weeks to get a EC repaired
for much more money.
I built my last couple CC's with surplus SW80
Curtis contactors for $14 each or one can hit the forklift
shops to find lowcost used ones. These normally come with
replaceable contacts so even if bad, can be easily fixed.
Now let's drop the numbers, cost of contactors
by using just 2 batt banks S/P which with contactors takes
3, one contactor for shorting the startup resistor gives 3
speeds and your basic set up. If going over 96vdc, I'd go
with another batt S/P step.
If you have a lot of power, you can do more
steps like 1 or 2 field weakening steps where you partly
short out the field winding, I use 1' of 12gge solid copper
wire for it on a 100 amp motor, to get your motor to draw
more power in the higher rpm ranges. Another is S/P the
motors if you have 2 and another resistor if you want.
So the 3 speed takes just 4 contactors plus a
cutoff like a breaker or a main contactor though 2 S/P
contactors can be replaced by big honking diodes. Unless you
are a high powered EV, this is all you need unless you are
single speed where you can use field weakening.
So a S/P, resistor, a FW gives you a good all
round controller for with just 5-6 contactors which even at
list prices is much les than a EC of the same power. Most
who don't think CC's are good enough rarely acknowledge that
most CC's are in the 1000 amp range!! Just how much would a
1000amp EC cost? And can you fix it yourself?
You already have about 1/2 a CC for a EC to work
so easy to make an emergency CC if it goes bad just by
adding a couple more contactors so the cost difference is
even better.
For racing I always though of using several
battery packs, say a 36-72v starting pack of say 16amphr
batts S/P for starting, getting up to speed, then about 1/3
the way down the track, hit your high voltage pack and as
soon as it starts to lighten up, hit the motor with FW.
Tailor your packs so you get the correct burn out, traction,
finish speed.
CC's can be an excellent controller and has been
used reliably for 100+ yrs and a great way to make a cost
effective EV.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:16:49 -0700
>My thought is to just tap the pack at 24, 48, 96 volts.
>Yes this will unevenly discharge the pack, so you must
>have a very good balancing charging system. It also
>reduces the range since its not taking advantage of all
>battery power. But it reduces the contactors to just 4,
>and is very simple.
>
>Has anyone else purchased the new Tyco LEV200 contactors?
>I've bought 4 of them, and 3 of them were defective!
>
>Jack
>
>damon henry wrote:
>> The main problem is that with the price of the contactors
>> you need to use, it turns out that that expensive PWM
>> controller is not so expensive after all. In fact a
>> contactor controller built with all new and properly
>rated parts could end up being more expensive. I bought
>> enough contactors and diodes surplus off of Ebay to make
>> a rectactor controller. All the parts at a deep
>> discount still cost me $200 and I still would have
>> needed to fabricate a bunch of stuff to put it all
>together. Ultimately I decided not to go that route. I
>> don't feel like I wasted the money, as beefy contactors
>> and huge diodes are always nice to have around and at
>> least some of them will undoubtedly end up in my new EV.
> I decided to spend the money and buy an Alltrax 7245
>> instead. This cost me about $650 deliverd. Once I
>> factored in all my needs the Alltrax just made a lot
>> more sense.
>> If you have a very cheap source of suitable contactors
>> you can certainly make a contactor controller. If you
>> go to the File archive section of the Yahoo EVDL archive
>> you will find some scanned copies of contactor
>> controllers.
>> A 3 step contactor controller takes 9 contactors. A 3
>> step rectactor can be built with 3 contactors and 6
>> diodes. The one I was going to build took 5 contactor
>> but included one for field weakening and one for a
>> startup resistor.
>> damon
>>
>> Here is the original message from Lee Hart I was working
>> off of.
>> No; the rectactor is a better circuit. Here it is (view
>> with a fixed width font like Courier New or Fixedsys):
>>
>>
>_________________________________||__________||___ |
>> _|_ __|__+ | || | | || | |
>> D1 /_\ S4a ___ B1 | S1 | | S2 | _|_
>> |____||____| - | | |_ _| D5
>> /_\ +__|__ || _|_ |___|/___|
>\/\/\/ | | B2 ___ /_\ D2 +|\- | R1
>> |_ | - |__________| C1
>> _|_ _| MOTOR | S3 |
>> S5 ___ _| FIELD |______||_________|
>> | _| | ||
>> | | | ____|_____
>> | |____| _|_ __|__+
>> _|_ | D3 /_\ S4b
>> ___ B3 /_\ D6 _|_
>> |____||____| - | MOTOR /
>\ +__|__ || _|_ | ARMATURE |
>> | B4 ___ /_\ D4 |
>> \___/
>> |__________|___________|________________________________|
>> B1-B4 are your four 12v batteries. S1 is your main
>> contactor, and has capacitor C1 across it as a snubber.
>> R1 is your starting resistor, and S2 is the bypass
>> contactor for it.
>> S4 is your 12v/24v series/parallel contactor. When open,
>> B3 and B4 are in parallel via diodes D3 and D4; and B1
>> and B2 are in parallel via diodes D1 and D2. When you
>> close S4, it connects B1 and B2 in series, and B3 and B4
>> in series.
>> S3 is your 24v/48v series/parallel contactor. It works
>> with diodes D5 and D6 to select 24v or 48v.
>>
>> S5 is a field weaking contactor. It wires part of the
>> starting resistor across the field to get a speed halfway
>> between two voltage steps.
>> Notice that at full voltage (48v), there are no diodes in
>> the power path. At 24v, there is only one diode in the
>> power path (D5 and D6 are effectively in parallel, each
>> carrying 1/2 the motor current). At 12v, there is two
>> diode drops in the power path (D1, D2, D3, and D4 are
>effectively in parallel, each carrying 1/4th the motor
>> current).
>> Also note that no contactor ever needs to switch the full
>> 48v. In an emergency shutdown, opening all contactors
>> doesn't have more than 12v across any of them.
>> --
>> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful
>> , committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's
>> the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon and All, I've been thinking about this. If/when i build a rev
limiter i'll include something to detect maximum rate of change of rpm and
disable above that. A missed shift while accelerating hard out of an
intersection or a controller failure with no load is going to spin up the
motor very quickly. Why wait until the motor gets to redline if the rpm
changes by say 1000rpm (for arguments sake) between samples then something
is wrong. Even blipping the throttle or burnouts aren't going to increase
the revs this quickly. I read that an unloaded F1 car engine at WOT would
accelerate to 100,000rpm in one second. While our motors aren't that good
its torque that accelerates the armature and series motors, especially ones
with shorted controllers have plenty of torque. Sounds like it shouldn't be
too hard to implement with the stamp, just compare successive samples. Just
as long as the samples aren't too far apart :-).
Justin
>As far as the safety interlock, it should be very easy to do with one of my
>Basic Stamps I have. Just use the built in frequency count function and
>issue a signal to open a normally closed relay or contact or both once it
>goes above a certain frequency. It also should be very straight forward to
>count only every other pulse and send a new set of pulses to the tach.
>
>damon
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used EV-America on my 1989 Isuzu conversion and was very sattisfied with
Bob Batsons service. When ever I had a dumb question to ask I would call
Bob and if I didn't get ahold of him I would leave a msg and he would call
me right back and work me through the problem. I have never had to have a
controler repaired though.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert mat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 1:35 PM
Subject: Any experience(s) with this company can repair Curtis controllers?
http://www.fsip.biz/
EV America sez they repair failed Curtis controller
that blew up. Any reviews of this company?
Photo link: Using the world's first licensed
Revived Battery electric pickup truck
for everyday errandshttp://my-ev-diary.blogspot.com/
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I love the idea of CC which is part of the reason I bought the parts to
build one. I wanted to experience it first hand. The two main reasons I
decided not to, is first, this is now being designed to be driven primarily
by my 16 year old son who just got his drivers license. I want him to have
the smooth control that a PWM controller allows, not the inherent jerky
control of a CC. I'm sure that with enough steps and proper shifting it can
be driven smoothly, but at this stage in his driving experience I want him
to have less things to worry about, not more. Second, every old timer on
this list has driven with a contact controller. At some point they all
decided to invest in a modern PWM controller instead. You do the math!
damon
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:13:24 -0500
Hi Jack, Damon and All,
You all are making CC's much more complicated,
expensive than needed.
Cheaper ways are building a manual one just
buying some car starter motor contacts to truck ones for
higher power CC's. Using copper discs, bars, preferably
silver plated, to join them allows you to build a great CC
for under $100. These can be rotary like on a disc/golf cart
style or a drum style or a straight sliding arrangement too.
Even better is they can be repaired in under 10 minutes for
a couple $ instead of waiting for weeks to get a EC repaired
for much more money.
I built my last couple CC's with surplus SW80
Curtis contactors for $14 each or one can hit the forklift
shops to find lowcost used ones. These normally come with
replaceable contacts so even if bad, can be easily fixed.
Now let's drop the numbers, cost of contactors
by using just 2 batt banks S/P which with contactors takes
3, one contactor for shorting the startup resistor gives 3
speeds and your basic set up. If going over 96vdc, I'd go
with another batt S/P step.
If you have a lot of power, you can do more
steps like 1 or 2 field weakening steps where you partly
short out the field winding, I use 1' of 12gge solid copper
wire for it on a 100 amp motor, to get your motor to draw
more power in the higher rpm ranges. Another is S/P the
motors if you have 2 and another resistor if you want.
So the 3 speed takes just 4 contactors plus a
cutoff like a breaker or a main contactor though 2 S/P
contactors can be replaced by big honking diodes. Unless you
are a high powered EV, this is all you need unless you are
single speed where you can use field weakening.
So a S/P, resistor, a FW gives you a good all
round controller for with just 5-6 contactors which even at
list prices is much les than a EC of the same power. Most
who don't think CC's are good enough rarely acknowledge that
most CC's are in the 1000 amp range!! Just how much would a
1000amp EC cost? And can you fix it yourself?
You already have about 1/2 a CC for a EC to work
so easy to make an emergency CC if it goes bad just by
adding a couple more contactors so the cost difference is
even better.
For racing I always though of using several
battery packs, say a 36-72v starting pack of say 16amphr
batts S/P for starting, getting up to speed, then about 1/3
the way down the track, hit your high voltage pack and as
soon as it starts to lighten up, hit the motor with FW.
Tailor your packs so you get the correct burn out, traction,
finish speed.
CC's can be an excellent controller and has been
used reliably for 100+ yrs and a great way to make a cost
effective EV.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:16:49 -0700
>My thought is to just tap the pack at 24, 48, 96 volts.
>Yes this will unevenly discharge the pack, so you must
>have a very good balancing charging system. It also
>reduces the range since its not taking advantage of all
>battery power. But it reduces the contactors to just 4,
>and is very simple.
>
>Has anyone else purchased the new Tyco LEV200 contactors?
>I've bought 4 of them, and 3 of them were defective!
>
>Jack
>
>damon henry wrote:
>> The main problem is that with the price of the contactors
>> you need to use, it turns out that that expensive PWM
>> controller is not so expensive after all. In fact a
>> contactor controller built with all new and properly
>rated parts could end up being more expensive. I bought
>> enough contactors and diodes surplus off of Ebay to make
>> a rectactor controller. All the parts at a deep
>> discount still cost me $200 and I still would have
>> needed to fabricate a bunch of stuff to put it all
>together. Ultimately I decided not to go that route. I
>> don't feel like I wasted the money, as beefy contactors
>> and huge diodes are always nice to have around and at
>> least some of them will undoubtedly end up in my new EV.
> I decided to spend the money and buy an Alltrax 7245
>> instead. This cost me about $650 deliverd. Once I
>> factored in all my needs the Alltrax just made a lot
>> more sense.
>> If you have a very cheap source of suitable contactors
>> you can certainly make a contactor controller. If you
>> go to the File archive section of the Yahoo EVDL archive
>> you will find some scanned copies of contactor
>> controllers.
>> A 3 step contactor controller takes 9 contactors. A 3
>> step rectactor can be built with 3 contactors and 6
>> diodes. The one I was going to build took 5 contactor
>> but included one for field weakening and one for a
>> startup resistor.
>> damon
>>
>> Here is the original message from Lee Hart I was working
>> off of.
>> No; the rectactor is a better circuit. Here it is (view
>> with a fixed width font like Courier New or Fixedsys):
>>
>>
>_________________________________||__________||___ |
>> _|_ __|__+ | || | | || | |
>> D1 /_\ S4a ___ B1 | S1 | | S2 | _|_
>> |____||____| - | | |_ _| D5
>> /_\ +__|__ || _|_ |___|/___|
>\/\/\/ | | B2 ___ /_\ D2 +|\- | R1
>> |_ | - |__________| C1
>> _|_ _| MOTOR | S3 |
>> S5 ___ _| FIELD |______||_________|
>> | _| | ||
>> | | | ____|_____
>> | |____| _|_ __|__+
>> _|_ | D3 /_\ S4b
>> ___ B3 /_\ D6 _|_
>> |____||____| - | MOTOR /
>\ +__|__ || _|_ | ARMATURE |
>> | B4 ___ /_\ D4 |
>> \___/
>> |__________|___________|________________________________|
>> B1-B4 are your four 12v batteries. S1 is your main
>> contactor, and has capacitor C1 across it as a snubber.
>> R1 is your starting resistor, and S2 is the bypass
>> contactor for it.
>> S4 is your 12v/24v series/parallel contactor. When open,
>> B3 and B4 are in parallel via diodes D3 and D4; and B1
>> and B2 are in parallel via diodes D1 and D2. When you
>> close S4, it connects B1 and B2 in series, and B3 and B4
>> in series.
>> S3 is your 24v/48v series/parallel contactor. It works
>> with diodes D5 and D6 to select 24v or 48v.
>>
>> S5 is a field weaking contactor. It wires part of the
>> starting resistor across the field to get a speed halfway
>> between two voltage steps.
>> Notice that at full voltage (48v), there are no diodes in
>> the power path. At 24v, there is only one diode in the
>> power path (D5 and D6 are effectively in parallel, each
>> carrying 1/2 the motor current). At 12v, there is two
>> diode drops in the power path (D1, D2, D3, and D4 are
>effectively in parallel, each carrying 1/4th the motor
>> current).
>> Also note that no contactor ever needs to switch the full
>> 48v. In an emergency shutdown, opening all contactors
>> doesn't have more than 12v across any of them.
>> --
>> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful
>> , committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's
>> the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I beg to differ, using 4 contactors on 24,48, 96 taps into the battery
string is about as simple as it gets.
serial/paralle switches, Copper disks and bars and sliding arrangements
sounds complicated.
Jack
jerryd wrote:
Hi Jack, Damon and All,
You all are making CC's much more complicated,
expensive than needed.
Cheaper ways are building a manual one just
buying some car starter motor contacts to truck ones for
higher power CC's. Using copper discs, bars, preferably
silver plated, to join them allows you to build a great CC
for under $100. These can be rotary like on a disc/golf cart
style or a drum style or a straight sliding arrangement too.
Even better is they can be repaired in under 10 minutes for
a couple $ instead of waiting for weeks to get a EC repaired
for much more money.
I built my last couple CC's with surplus SW80
Curtis contactors for $14 each or one can hit the forklift
shops to find lowcost used ones. These normally come with
replaceable contacts so even if bad, can be easily fixed.
Now let's drop the numbers, cost of contactors
by using just 2 batt banks S/P which with contactors takes
3, one contactor for shorting the startup resistor gives 3
speeds and your basic set up. If going over 96vdc, I'd go
with another batt S/P step.
If you have a lot of power, you can do more
steps like 1 or 2 field weakening steps where you partly
short out the field winding, I use 1' of 12gge solid copper
wire for it on a 100 amp motor, to get your motor to draw
more power in the higher rpm ranges. Another is S/P the
motors if you have 2 and another resistor if you want.
So the 3 speed takes just 4 contactors plus a
cutoff like a breaker or a main contactor though 2 S/P
contactors can be replaced by big honking diodes. Unless you
are a high powered EV, this is all you need unless you are
single speed where you can use field weakening.
So a S/P, resistor, a FW gives you a good all
round controller for with just 5-6 contactors which even at
list prices is much les than a EC of the same power. Most
who don't think CC's are good enough rarely acknowledge that
most CC's are in the 1000 amp range!! Just how much would a
1000amp EC cost? And can you fix it yourself?
You already have about 1/2 a CC for a EC to work
so easy to make an emergency CC if it goes bad just by
adding a couple more contactors so the cost difference is
even better.
For racing I always though of using several
battery packs, say a 36-72v starting pack of say 16amphr
batts S/P for starting, getting up to speed, then about 1/3
the way down the track, hit your high voltage pack and as
soon as it starts to lighten up, hit the motor with FW.
Tailor your packs so you get the correct burn out, traction,
finish speed.
CC's can be an excellent controller and has been
used reliably for 100+ yrs and a great way to make a cost
effective EV.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:16:49 -0700
My thought is to just tap the pack at 24, 48, 96 volts.
Yes this will unevenly discharge the pack, so you must
have a very good balancing charging system. It also
reduces the range since its not taking advantage of all
battery power. But it reduces the contactors to just 4,
and is very simple.
Has anyone else purchased the new Tyco LEV200 contactors?
I've bought 4 of them, and 3 of them were defective!
Jack
damon henry wrote:
The main problem is that with the price of the contactors
you need to use, it turns out that that expensive PWM
controller is not so expensive after all. In fact a
contactor controller built with all new and properly
rated parts could end up being more expensive. I bought
enough contactors and diodes surplus off of Ebay to make
a rectactor controller. All the parts at a deep
discount still cost me $200 and I still would have
needed to fabricate a bunch of stuff to put it all
together. Ultimately I decided not to go that route. I
don't feel like I wasted the money, as beefy contactors
and huge diodes are always nice to have around and at
least some of them will undoubtedly end up in my new EV.
I decided to spend the money and buy an Alltrax 7245
instead. This cost me about $650 deliverd. Once I
factored in all my needs the Alltrax just made a lot
more sense.
If you have a very cheap source of suitable contactors
you can certainly make a contactor controller. If you
go to the File archive section of the Yahoo EVDL archive
you will find some scanned copies of contactor
controllers.
A 3 step contactor controller takes 9 contactors. A 3
step rectactor can be built with 3 contactors and 6
diodes. The one I was going to build took 5 contactor
but included one for field weakening and one for a
startup resistor.
damon
Here is the original message from Lee Hart I was working
off of.
No; the rectactor is a better circuit. Here it is (view
with a fixed width font like Courier New or Fixedsys):
_________________________________||__________||___ |
_|_ __|__+ | || | | || | |
D1 /_\ S4a ___ B1 | S1 | | S2 | _|_
|____||____| - | | |_ _| D5
/_\ +__|__ || _|_ |___|/___|
\/\/\/ | | B2 ___ /_\ D2 +|\- | R1
|_ | - |__________| C1
_|_ _| MOTOR | S3 |
S5 ___ _| FIELD |______||_________|
| _| | ||
| | | ____|_____
| |____| _|_ __|__+
_|_ | D3 /_\ S4b
___ B3 /_\ D6 _|_
|____||____| - | MOTOR /
\ +__|__ || _|_ | ARMATURE |
| B4 ___ /_\ D4 |
\___/
|__________|___________|________________________________|
B1-B4 are your four 12v batteries. S1 is your main
contactor, and has capacitor C1 across it as a snubber.
R1 is your starting resistor, and S2 is the bypass
contactor for it.
S4 is your 12v/24v series/parallel contactor. When open,
B3 and B4 are in parallel via diodes D3 and D4; and B1
and B2 are in parallel via diodes D1 and D2. When you
close S4, it connects B1 and B2 in series, and B3 and B4
in series.
S3 is your 24v/48v series/parallel contactor. It works
with diodes D5 and D6 to select 24v or 48v.
S5 is a field weaking contactor. It wires part of the
starting resistor across the field to get a speed halfway
between two voltage steps.
Notice that at full voltage (48v), there are no diodes in
the power path. At 24v, there is only one diode in the
power path (D5 and D6 are effectively in parallel, each
carrying 1/2 the motor current). At 12v, there is two
diode drops in the power path (D1, D2, D3, and D4 are
effectively in parallel, each carrying 1/4th the motor
current).
Also note that no contactor ever needs to switch the full
48v. In an emergency shutdown, opening all contactors
doesn't have more than 12v across any of them.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful
, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's
the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
