EV Digest 6719
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Dead start acceleration issues
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: HARD TIME ON CURTIS WARRANTY CLAIM? (WAS Re: Newest Curtis
controllers OK to buy now for 120V EV? Or, go with Zilla controller?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Truncated EVDL messages in the Archive
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Brake drag
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: cartoon
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Brake drag
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: cartoon
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 6717
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: corvette conversion
by Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Controller experiences
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Suspension and weight distribution
by "Miller, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Controller experiences
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Controller experiences
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: corvette conversion
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Controller experiences
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bob Bath
> I'm getting a similar issue, but rather it is a _severe_ drop in
> voltage. Ie, it goes down to 90V from a 144V pack, even when I
> accelerate slowly.
You have to make some measurements to be able to figure out what is going on.
What current makes the pack sag to 90v? Freshly off charge, it should take a
huge current do to this (several times the amphour capacity of the batteries
(say, 500 amps from a 100 amphour battery).
> Would brush issues account for _that?_
The motor is irrelevant if the batteries themselves sag badly. If you are
getting serious sag at the batteries (and their current really is hundreds of
amps) *and* the motor still accelerates poorly, then there might be some issue
with the motor, controller or their associated wiring. However, this would mean
a heck of a lot of power is being drawn from the batteries and not getting
converted into mechanical horsepower. That lost power will show up somewhere as
HEAT! Something will be getting very, very, hot!
> The only other thing I can figure is that I still
> need to drop the Imax on this new controller. E-meter
> says I'm pulling up to 320A out of them, and perhaps
> this is causing temporary drop in useable electrolyte?
The E-meter measures battery voltage and current, so it can tell you how much
power the batteries are delivering. Volts x amps is Watts; and Wattx / 1000 is
roughly the horsepower the motor will be producing. Does the car accelerate
like you'd expect with this amount of horseower? 90v x 320a = 28,800 watts =
28.8 horsepower. That's pretty anemic for accellerating a 3000 lbs car.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: robert mat
> How can silicon caulk be used to seal the Curtis controller then?
I noticed that the end cover on my own Curtis 1231C was loose (could push on
it, and it wiggled). I wound up pulling it off with a suction cup. I threw a
little bag of silicone gel inside the case (the kind that comes in the box with
various bits of electronics and says "do not eat" :-) and glued the cover back
on with silicone rubber. That was a few years ago, and so far, it still works.
I've opened a number of Curtis controllers for repair, and have noticed
evidence of water inside many of them. There are rusty screw heads, and residue
marks on the PC boards and case where water obviously was there and dried. In
some cases, the water shorts traces along the bottom edge of the contro board,
and it dies!
> BTW, I'm thinking of also using small CPU fans around
> the controller -- that trick has saved my Ego-II motor
> from continual bolt pop offs.
Anything helps. My controller is mounted to a large flat aluminum plate, and
has a plastic "tunnel" over it. A 4.7" 12v muffin fan blows air through this
tunnel, and so over the fins on the case and the aluminum base plate. It keeps
it cool in my small low-powered EV.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David> Hang on, Mailman is coming to your nearby SJSU server Real Soon
David> Now (tm), and it seems to handle html mail much more rationally.
Got that right! If you need any help, let me know. I help administer a
number of Mailman-based lists on mail.python.org.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jude Anthony
> I'm not exactly happy with the free rotation of the rotor without
> calipers... I'm considering replacing the entire spindle (since
> the bearings are sealed in, and there's no maintenance procedure
> in any of the manuals)
The old open adjustable wheel bearings required occasional greasing, but
certainly had lower rolling resistance. The new "sealed for life" ones often
seem to have a tremendous amount of drag.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Just thought you might chuckle at this.
> http://comics.com/wash/bonanas/archive/bonanas-20070428.html
Thanks for my laugh of the day. It reminds me of one I saw with the couple
driving their nice new car up the entrance ramp to a freeway at rush hour. The
freeway is jammed solid with cars... and they are all carnival bumper cars. The
drivers are slam-banging their way along, shoving each other aside, waving
insults, etc.
But, I have to wonder... what would it be like to build electrified roads like
this, with overhead wires and electric cars without batteries? It might work!
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
The part # on the Prestolite shipping memo from Nov 2000 says EO34080
The motor tag is blank. It has a bunch of temp sensors coming out of
it.
At the time they shipped it to me Prestolite rated it at 10HP and 48
volts.
It had no bearing boss at the output and had a large spline. I machined
the arm for a keyed shaft and machined a new end plate and added a
pressed in bearing. It is a great motor but is much heavier than even
the old GE 12" units I used to have in OJ and was too big for my
industrial drive application I needed it for at the time.
Thanks for the help.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
Hi Shawn,
Do you have a part number for that Prestolite
prototype? I might recognize it.
Thanks,
Jeff
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey Rod watt's up? Believe it or not the
Electropolitan's motor is a
giant Prestolite 48 volt fork truck prototype motor
I got from their
lab many years ago. I think it was for some high
torque, low speed
direct drive system. Running around town at 120
volts and a top speed
of 65 mph it is perfect. Gobs of torque and it
never even gets warm.
I'll bet it would come alive if I ran a 240 volt
system but I really
don't want to go 100+ in that thing. Any chance you
can fly over to DC
for the PODC?
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
Hi Shawn, with a 4.22 rear end ratio I would think
you are about right
for gearing. The problem with your motor going to
sleep is that it is
probably a high voltage motor. You should try a
large 48 volt fork lift
motor. At 96 volts it would wake up. If you could
find a 24 volt one
that would be even better. Just a thought if you
want to get serious
about the 96 volt record.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
Is this the Jack that has the 96 volt SC record. If
so then congrats.
It will be tough to win back. There aren't alot of
gearing options for
a 1957 Metropolitan floating around and the thing is
just geared too
darn low. I have only hit 50-52 at 96 volts flat
out. It's really
quick off the line then falls on it's face about 40
mph.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
Good luck on your racing Shawn!
Jack.
----- Original Message ----- From:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
> BAD NEWS
> > It's looks as though our new "Juiced Up"
dragster will not be ready
for > the PODC this year. At least not in the form I
would be satisfied
> bringing it to an official NEDRA event. Four nine
inch motors, four
2K > Zillas, and 3000+ battery cells with full
regulation presents some
> challenges. The Zillas our here on the shelf, the
motors should be
here > by the end of May, and I am not ready to
share final details of
the > battery pack at the time being, but rest
assured "Juiced Up" will
be > completed, tested, tuned and at a NEDRA asap. I
had considered
bringing > it with me to PODC in an incomplete state
but don't see the
purpose in > that.
> > GOOD NEWS So what to do with four new 2K Zillas
while they wait for
> > their new
> home. I installed one in AGNS last week. She ran a
14.7 @ 85 on >
Saturday at 84 volts. Darin and Piranha have moved
up to 96 volts so it
> will be a class shootout in Maryland on June 3! A
guy from Texas took
> the 96 volt record held by the Electropolitan last
fall so I found a
> temporary home for Zilla#2. Not sure what 2000
amps will do to that >
tiny little rear axle in but I have a spare one just
in case. We will >
have her at PODC as well. OJ is going to have to
carry the water one >
more time for us in the dragster category and will
be there withe not >
only a 2K, but, (are you listening Rudman?) an nice
green box that >
doesn't shock the %&*# out of you while charging.
We're still looking >
for that elusive 240 volt 10.55 number......
> > Shawn Lawless
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
more about what's
free > from AOL at AOL.com.
> >
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--- Begin Message ---
Do not add springs to brakes like that! The retraction will take one or several
pumps of the brake pedal to overcome before the brakes start working. Also, it
could make the brake reservoir overflow as the pistons retract, and then have
low fluid as the pedal is pumped.
Track racers sometimes have this problem. Usually it means they have slightly
loose wheels bearings, suspension, or brake parts. That little slack lets the
piston get pushed in a bit due to forces encountered on the track, and the
brake pedal goes way low or even to the floor. This is popularly called "pad
knockback." Some racers will give the brakes a quick pump before the turn to
make sure the pads are seated against the disk before braking for real.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:02:57 PM
Subject: Re: Brake drag
... I'm considering a rebuild of the brakes, ..., and even modifications to add
springs to the two rails that the calipers slide on. ...
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--- Begin Message ---
I like it. How about a commuter lane on the expressway, only to be used by
electrics and hybrids, with overhead power?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: cartoon
Just thought you might chuckle at this.
http://comics.com/wash/bonanas/archive/bonanas-20070428.html
Thanks for my laugh of the day. It reminds me of one I saw with the couple
driving their nice new car up the entrance ramp to a freeway at rush hour.
The freeway is jammed solid with cars... and they are all carnival bumper
cars. The drivers are slam-banging their way along, shoving each other
aside, waving insults, etc.
But, I have to wonder... what would it be like to build electrified roads
like this, with overhead wires and electric cars without batteries? It
might work!
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into
momentum. -- Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Shawn,
No info on that one. Great to see old iron put to
use. Good luck.
Jeff
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> The part # on the Prestolite shipping memo from Nov
> 2000 says EO34080
> The motor tag is blank. It has a bunch of temp
> sensors coming out of
> it.
> At the time they shipped it to me Prestolite rated
> it at 10HP and 48
> volts.
> It had no bearing boss at the output and had a large
> spline. I machined
> the arm for a keyed shaft and machined a new end
> plate and added a
> pressed in bearing. It is a great motor but is much
> heavier than even
> the old GE 12" units I used to have in OJ and was
> too big for my
> industrial drive application I needed it for at the
> time.
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 9:24 AM
> Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> Do you have a part number for that Prestolite
> prototype? I might recognize it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Hey Rod watt's up? Believe it or not the
> > Electropolitan's motor is a
> > giant Prestolite 48 volt fork truck prototype
> motor
> > I got from their
> > lab many years ago. I think it was for some high
> > torque, low speed
> > direct drive system. Running around town at 120
> > volts and a top speed
> > of 65 mph it is perfect. Gobs of torque and it
> > never even gets warm.
> > I'll bet it would come alive if I ran a 240 volt
> > system but I really
> > don't want to go 100+ in that thing. Any chance
> you
> > can fly over to DC
> > for the PODC?
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Sent: Tue, 1 May 2007 1:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
> >
> > Hi Shawn, with a 4.22 rear end ratio I would think
> > you are about right
> > for gearing. The problem with your motor going to
> > sleep is that it is
> > probably a high voltage motor. You should try a
> > large 48 volt fork lift
> > motor. At 96 volts it would wake up. If you could
> > find a 24 volt one
> > that would be even better. Just a thought if you
> > want to get serious
> > about the 96 volt record.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
> >
> > Is this the Jack that has the 96 volt SC record.
> If
> > so then congrats.
> > It will be tough to win back. There aren't alot of
> > gearing options for
> > a 1957 Metropolitan floating around and the thing
> is
> > just geared too
> > darn low. I have only hit 50-52 at 96 volts flat
> > out. It's really
> > quick off the line then falls on it's face about
> 40
> > mph.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
> >
> > Good luck on your racing Shawn!
> > Jack.
> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:31 AM
> > Subject: No "Juiced Up" at PODC
> >
> > > BAD NEWS
> > > > It's looks as though our new "Juiced Up"
> > dragster will not be ready
> > for > the PODC this year. At least not in the form
> I
> > would be satisfied
> > > bringing it to an official NEDRA event. Four
> nine
> > inch motors, four
> > 2K > Zillas, and 3000+ battery cells with full
> > regulation presents some
> > > challenges. The Zillas our here on the shelf,
> the
> > motors should be
> > here > by the end of May, and I am not ready to
> > share final details of
> > the > battery pack at the time being, but rest
> > assured "Juiced Up" will
> > be > completed, tested, tuned and at a NEDRA asap.
> I
> > had considered
> > bringing > it with me to PODC in an incomplete
> state
> > but don't see the
> > purpose in > that.
> > > > GOOD NEWS So what to do with four new 2K
> Zillas
> > while they wait for
> > > > their new
> > > home. I installed one in AGNS last week. She ran
> a
> > 14.7 @ 85 on >
> > Saturday at 84 volts. Darin and Piranha have moved
> > up to 96 volts so it
> > > will be a class shootout in Maryland on June 3!
> A
> > guy from Texas took
> > > the 96 volt record held by the Electropolitan
> last
> > fall so I found a
> > > temporary home for Zilla#2. Not sure what 2000
> > amps will do to that >
> > tiny little rear axle in but I have a spare one
> just
> > in case. We will >
> > have her at PODC as well. OJ is going to have to
> > carry the water one >
> > more time for us in the dragster category and will
> > be there withe not >
> > only a 2K, but, (are you listening Rudman?) an
> nice
> > green box that >
> > doesn't shock the %&*# out of you while charging.
> > We're still looking >
> > for that elusive 240 volt 10.55 number......
> > > > Shawn Lawless
> > >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> >
> >
> > > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> > more about what's
> > free > from AOL at AOL.com.
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> >
> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> more
> > about what's free
> > from AOL at AOL.com.
> > =0
> >
> >
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab
> I wonder if... money could be saved by "rolling our own"...
> carbon brushes across brass bars... connected to the pack in
> various configurations...
Folks who are interested in this need only look at older controllers. Contactor
controllers were perfected long ago, and all you need to do is learn from them
what worked and what didn't.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
First, this was a description of the worst case I face, I don't
necessarily expect to be able to make that trip with current
(affordable) battery technology. The expected goal is to commute
between my home and "the little town" 5 miles down the road. That
will be +-800 ft. with steep grades. But my thinking is that I
would arrive in "the big city" with a full tank, and keep it somewhat
full in the stop-go driving I do while there. There are also a
bucketfull of trips one can make around here where you do go uphill for
the first half, then cruise back home downhill. Hiking, flyfishing, or
just cruising with the top off!
> If I understand this correctly, you go Down hill when the pack is
> full and
> climb up hill when it's low?
>
> If that's the case, then Regen is just about useless. Your pack will
> be
> full when going downhill, so you won't be able to use regen, except
> maybe
> a tiny bit.
>
> Regen doesn't do anything for you going up hill.
>
> So if this is the case, then I wouldn't waste any money on regen
> unless
> you get it in a motor/controller that you are buying for some other
> reason
> anyway. I.e. get it if it's free, but don't spend money buying
> something
> you can't use.
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > 3000+ foot climb in 17 miles to commute (back from) "the big city".
> >
> >> > I know some people will probably disagree, but I would modify
> that
> >> statement
> >> > to read, "Because 95% of my driving will be in the mountains, I
> >> >NEED< regen
> >> > capabilities."
> >> >
> >>
> >> What do you define as mountains?
I purposely(?) bought a "base model" vette to keep weight down.
Meaning it has lighweight cloth seats (as oppossed to the monster
leather/motorized seats usually found). It has manual mirrors, etc.
The automatic trans will be replaced with a 5speed manual (aluminum)
along with centerforce aluminum flywheel. The AC will go, the steering
will be converted to manual. The wheels/tires will eventually
be changed to something skinny.
> I think you definintely need regen in this situation.
> You also need to reduce your weight as much as possible as well, or
> hauling UP a big battery pack is going to be very stressful.
> 17 miles and up 3,000 feet is going to take a lot of energy.
> If lithium is out of the budget, I think you really need to consider
> using NiMH, or maybe the BB600 NiCad at least, with the BB600's you
> can
> overcharge them on regen without much consequence, but someone tell
> me
> where you can actually buy BB600 cells?
Don't know how much, but you need SOME power. Going down the canyon
you need to achieve 50mph in the straight sections, or you have a
bunch of idiots passing you in a double yellow situation. Then you
come to a sharp corner and have to reduce speed 10-20mph, straight -
speedup, etc.
> Going downhill, you essentially don't need ANY battery power really,
> it'll coast all the way down. So you really only need to focus on
> being
> able to make the return trip UP. And that means reducing weight as
> much
> as possible and having a motor and controller that won't overheat.
---
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Thanks for pointing me to that website. It answered a whole slew of other
questions I had about my EV.
Obviously I'm not understanding something about the Zilla though. I do not
understand how you can have different amperages at the motor and the
battery. I've heard it mentioned several times in the past but I don't
understand how the Zilla does this and I wouldn't know what to program it
for.
If I understand you correctly, the Zilla would somehow give me superior
acceleration and top speed without harming the batteries or the motor, and
that the Curtis controllers just pull from the batteries without limit or
regard to safety because it's not programmed to my individual application.
Rich
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Controller experiences
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:34:25 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hello Richard,
The Zilla is a boost type of controller. Your battery ampere will be less
than you motor ampere. Lets say your motor is rated at 200 amps continuous
duty and you held that ampere, the battery ampere will be about 50 amps.
This depends on the voltage of your batteries and the overall gear ratio you
have.
I am running a 180 v pack using 30 T-145's in a 7000 lb EV. In 1st gear I
have a 19.5:1 overall ratio and if I accelerated like a normal ICE, the
maximum ampere goes to about 300 amps and my battery amperes is at 75 amps.
After acceleration to about 35 mph the motor ampere comes back to about 150
motor amps and the battery amps is about 40 amps shifting in to 2nd gear
which is now 13.5:1 overall ratio.
Slowing accelerating to 50 mph, my motor ampere may peak to 400 amps and
battery amps at 250 amps which is for about 10 seconds. After accelerating
and shifting to 3rd gear which is a 5.57:1 overall ratio, the motor ampere
is now at 195 amps and battery amperes is 175 amps.
With the Zilla, I limit my battery ampere to 400 amps and motor ampere to
600 amps. I have never got above 250 battery amps and 500 motor amperes
which was for a very short time which is less than 10 seconds.
Otmar of Café Electric was scare that I would burn out a Zilla 1K in my 7000
lb EV. I said, I have the gear ratios, to keep the amperes at a level I
want. I been driving with a CableForm controller for about 12 years in a
8000 lb EV with granney gear ratios that I can accelerated up to 60 mph at
about 600 motor amperes and cruising at 60 mph at 180 motor and battery
amps.
Type in your data in Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator at
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html?200629
This site lists the Zilla controller and the type of vehicle you are
driving.
Roland
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks who are interested in this need only look at older controllers.
Contactor controllers were perfected long ago, and all you need to do is
learn from them what worked and what didn't.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into
momentum. -- Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Ahhh, the circle is now complete, as the original post that started this
thread was not seeking to do something new, rather looking for sources for
pictures, diagrams, schematics etc of how to implement the old... which is
of course what Lee is suggesting. I guess the problem is that there is not
a ready source of information on these older controllers.
I'll wander a bit off topic here, but this type of thing reminds me of the
punch line of an old Gallager joke. It went something like this... So you
head down to your local McDonalds and fill out a job application and don't
get hired, now what do you do?
I'm afraid that this is going to be one of the side effects of our new
Google mentality. So we google "contact controllers" and can't find any
good schematics or diagrams, now where do we go? There was a time when
people had to work very hard to research a subject, and in doing so they
gained a unique skill set. Now we expect to have all the answers right at
our finger tips due to the internet, and when it is not there, we may not
have the skills to go find the answers elsewhere, or even worse, alternative
sources may start to become obsolete and disappear.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I am assuming that your batteries are in the front of the bed of your
pick up which would put them in front of the rear wheels. If this is so
then your weight distribution is already partially supported by your
front wheels so keeping them on the ground should just be a matter of
finding a good front/rear suspension combination. Yes for optimal
handling you would want to more evenly distribute the batteries but you
would still be looking at beefing up the suspension. Remember your
driving a pickup truck not a formula one race car. Keeping the batteries
together in the back does have its benefits. I would suggest adding
spring and heavy duty shocks to both the front and rear and maybe a lift
kit in the back and see what you get before you give up your idea of
keeping the batteries altogether in the back. Just my $.02 worth.
John Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: John O'Connor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Suspension and weight distribution
I wrote this back on the 20th and got great response about ways to
raise the rear ride height. Dave H. responded with concern about
putting all the batteries in the bed because of what it does to the
front end. I went ahead and connected up all my components and made a
few proof of concept movements around the driveway under battery
power, and now I am back to my weight distribution issue.
Based on the response from mid april, it would seem that I can fix my
rear ride height with additional springs, but I now share Dave H's
issue about the front end. I don't know much about autos but it
doesn't seem that anything but additional weight in the front can fix
that end. Are there adjustments that can be made to the suspension of
truck to shift weight forward?
I temporarily put 4 of my batteries up in the engine compartment and
it "looks" much better. The from ride height is close to where it was
pre conversion, but the rear is still low. Currently the weight of
the 4 batteries is being distributed to the old engine mounts that
are about even with the front wheels. If I put permanently put
batteries up from thel will be forward of the front wheels so 4 may
be the right number.
I wanted to keep all the batteries in the bed because it seemed
easier, but also so they would all be in one location to have 1
insulated battery box for temperature consistency. (I am in Western MA)
Was I being overly concerned about maintaining consistent battery
temperatures? (I'm using Interstate flooded lead)
Am I correct that if I insulate some of my batteries I need to
insulate them all?
Having to rearrange everything would be a bit of a disappointing
setback but I fear I may have to.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I still think the fact that the old timers on the list don't run contact
controllers speaks volumes, so why not? Come on Bob, Lee, John, and anyone
else that used to use one and now does not, what gives? Jerry seems to be
the biggest proponent, but I don't believe that he is planning on using them
on in the Freedom EV.
I mean look, Bob Rice just struggled through several days of trying to get
his Raptor up and running. He good have easily built himself a contact
controller in that time, but he didn't. He kept plugging away until he got
the Raptor figured out.
So take us back to that day when you got your first modern controller and
tell us how it felt to hang up the contactor controllers for good.
Those of us who aren't EV pioneers don't always understand how good we have
it. I'll never forget John Wayland going on and on about how terrific his
Rudman PFC charger was to me. I finally had to stop him and say John, you
don't understand, I don't have the same ability to appreciate it that you
do, because I didn't have to live through the days of DIY chargers. The
whole time I have been involved in EVs great chargers have been available, I
just have to be willing to pony up the money.
When it comes to EV's, I'm like the spoiled kid whos parents are frustrated
with me because I don't seem to appreciate all that they give me, but I
can't, because I never went through the struggles in life they did,
ironically, because they take such good care of me...
damon
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:52:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Shanab
> I wonder if... money could be saved by "rolling our own"...
> carbon brushes across brass bars... connected to the pack in
> various configurations...
Folks who are interested in this need only look at older controllers.
Contactor controllers were perfected long ago, and all you need to do is
learn from them what worked and what didn't.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into
momentum. -- Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Richard,
These PWM motor controllers are buck converters.
Meaning that they reduce the voltage from the source
(battery) to the load (motor). The motor speed is
proportional to voltage. In reducing the voltage,
input to output, the current is increased, input to
output. Similar to how a transformer works. So when
you have a motor voltage lower than the battery
voltage, the motor current will be higher than the
battery current. This is called current
multiplication, and happens with the Curtis and all
PWM controllers of this type which use a freewheeling
diode.
Jeff
--- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Roland,
>
> Thanks for pointing me to that website. It answered
> a whole slew of other
> questions I had about my EV.
>
> Obviously I'm not understanding something about the
> Zilla though. I do not
> understand how you can have different amperages at
> the motor and the
> battery. I've heard it mentioned several times in
> the past but I don't
> understand how the Zilla does this and I wouldn't
> know what to program it
> for.
>
> If I understand you correctly, the Zilla would
> somehow give me superior
> acceleration and top speed without harming the
> batteries or the motor, and
> that the Curtis controllers just pull from the
> batteries without limit or
> regard to safety because it's not programmed to my
> individual application.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Controller experiences
> Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:34:25 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Hello Richard,
>
> The Zilla is a boost type of controller. Your
> battery ampere will be less
> than you motor ampere. Lets say your motor is rated
> at 200 amps continuous
> duty and you held that ampere, the battery ampere
> will be about 50 amps.
> This depends on the voltage of your batteries and
> the overall gear ratio you
> have.
>
> I am running a 180 v pack using 30 T-145's in a 7000
> lb EV. In 1st gear I
> have a 19.5:1 overall ratio and if I accelerated
> like a normal ICE, the
> maximum ampere goes to about 300 amps and my battery
> amperes is at 75 amps.
>
> After acceleration to about 35 mph the motor ampere
> comes back to about 150
> motor amps and the battery amps is about 40 amps
> shifting in to 2nd gear
> which is now 13.5:1 overall ratio.
>
> Slowing accelerating to 50 mph, my motor ampere may
> peak to 400 amps and
> battery amps at 250 amps which is for about 10
> seconds. After accelerating
> and shifting to 3rd gear which is a 5.57:1 overall
> ratio, the motor ampere
> is now at 195 amps and battery amperes is 175 amps.
>
> With the Zilla, I limit my battery ampere to 400
> amps and motor ampere to
> 600 amps. I have never got above 250 battery amps
> and 500 motor amperes
> which was for a very short time which is less than
> 10 seconds.
>
> Otmar of Café Electric was scare that I would burn
> out a Zilla 1K in my 7000
> lb EV. I said, I have the gear ratios, to keep the
> amperes at a level I
> want. I been driving with a CableForm controller
> for about 12 years in a
> 8000 lb EV with granney gear ratios that I can
> accelerated up to 60 mph at
> about 600 motor amperes and cruising at 60 mph at
> 180 motor and battery
> amps.
>
> Type in your data in Uve's Electric Vehicle
> Calculator at
>
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html?200629
>
> This site lists the Zilla controller and the type of
> vehicle you are
> driving.
>
> Roland
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
>
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zilla is a boost type of controller. Your battery ampere will be less
than you motor ampere. Lets say your motor is rated at 200 amps continuous
duty and you held that ampere, the battery ampere will be about 50 amps.
This is a bit of a nit-pick but strictly speaking this is known as 'buck'
operation - the input voltage is higher than the load voltage.
'Boost' is used when regenerating on a PM or BLDC motor - when the
motor voltage is lower than the battery voltage.
Since the controller's input voltage is higher than the output voltage,
the input current must be lower than the output current. That's the
nature of PWM power supply circuits - not just motor controllers.
Your DC-DC converter follows the same rule. So does your PC power supply.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/30/07, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think you definintely need regen in this situation.
You also need to reduce your weight as much as possible as well, or
hauling UP a big battery pack is going to be very stressful.
17 miles and up 3,000 feet is going to take a lot of energy.
If lithium is out of the budget, I think you really need to consider
using NiMH, or maybe the BB600 NiCad at least, with the BB600's you can
overcharge them on regen without much consequence, but someone tell me
where you can actually buy BB600 cells?
<snip>
http://www.moltech.com/
I got a price quote from these fine folks for flooded NiCD prismatic cells,
"A typical long rate ni-cad 220ah 1.2V cell will cost around $210-256 per
cell."
Thats pretty pricey, but its a heck of a lot cheaper than the
ridiculous price of $245 for a BB600 equivalent from MarathonNorco.
They are not familiar with EV applications.. mostly they supply to
telcos and industry for backup power and etc, however their cell
selection looks to be good, and the high discharge cells look to be
good for EV applications.
Their online catalog is out of date by the way... here is the catalog
he sent me:
http://www.grittyrobot.com/NiCad.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Richard,
You can program the Zilla for volt and ampere limits for both the motor and
battery. My motor has a 199 amp continuous duty, but can draw higher than
that for a short time which I set for 600 amps. I have to watch that very
closely during acceleration.
The Zilla has a Amp on Tach mode that can be use. This reads the motor amp
from a built in shunt. A speed sensor is used off the motor which is use to
limited the rpm you input.
I use my large Stewart Tach as a motor amp meter which is next to the speedo
and another small digital tach that I got from Surplus Sales of Nebraska -
www.surplussales.com - They are about $20.00 and they told me they have
about 5000 in stock.
These are a counter-tach combination. Just insert one 1/4 inch diameter
neomagnet you can get from ACE Hardward on any motor rotating part. I drill
a 1/4 hole in my pilot shaft coupler and press it in using some JB Weld.
I use one of those 1/4 inch diameter magnet sensor switch that is use for
door or window alarm systems. I got my from www.allelectronics.com. I
install this sensor switch on a aluminum flat bar which I bent a offset on
it for attaching to the face of the motor.
In the counter mode, it will count once per one rpm. If your motor is
turning 60 times in one minute, then by just flipping a switch from counter
to tach, it will read 60 rpm.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Controller experiences
> Roland,
>
> Thanks for pointing me to that website. It answered a whole slew of other
> questions I had about my EV.
>
> Obviously I'm not understanding something about the Zilla though. I do not
> understand how you can have different amperages at the motor and the
> battery. I've heard it mentioned several times in the past but I don't
> understand how the Zilla does this and I wouldn't know what to program it
> for.
>
> If I understand you correctly, the Zilla would somehow give me superior
> acceleration and top speed without harming the batteries or the motor, and
> that the Curtis controllers just pull from the batteries without limit or
> regard to safety because it's not programmed to my individual application.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Controller experiences
> Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 07:34:25 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Hello Richard,
>
> The Zilla is a boost type of controller. Your battery ampere will be less
> than you motor ampere. Lets say your motor is rated at 200 amps
> continuous
> duty and you held that ampere, the battery ampere will be about 50 amps.
> This depends on the voltage of your batteries and the overall gear ratio
> you
> have.
>
> I am running a 180 v pack using 30 T-145's in a 7000 lb EV. In 1st gear I
> have a 19.5:1 overall ratio and if I accelerated like a normal ICE, the
> maximum ampere goes to about 300 amps and my battery amperes is at 75
> amps.
>
> After acceleration to about 35 mph the motor ampere comes back to about
> 150
> motor amps and the battery amps is about 40 amps shifting in to 2nd gear
> which is now 13.5:1 overall ratio.
>
> Slowing accelerating to 50 mph, my motor ampere may peak to 400 amps and
> battery amps at 250 amps which is for about 10 seconds. After
> accelerating
> and shifting to 3rd gear which is a 5.57:1 overall ratio, the motor ampere
> is now at 195 amps and battery amperes is 175 amps.
>
> With the Zilla, I limit my battery ampere to 400 amps and motor ampere to
> 600 amps. I have never got above 250 battery amps and 500 motor amperes
> which was for a very short time which is less than 10 seconds.
>
> Otmar of Café Electric was scare that I would burn out a Zilla 1K in my
> 7000
> lb EV. I said, I have the gear ratios, to keep the amperes at a level I
> want. I been driving with a CableForm controller for about 12 years in a
> 8000 lb EV with granney gear ratios that I can accelerated up to 60 mph at
> about 600 motor amperes and cruising at 60 mph at 180 motor and battery
> amps.
>
> Type in your data in Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator at
> http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html?200629
>
> This site lists the Zilla controller and the type of vehicle you are
> driving.
>
> Roland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
> http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
>
>
--- End Message ---
