EV Digest 6725
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC motors)
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Batteries and Other Stuff. WASRe: Battery model/brand comparison chart
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs)
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ADC 203-06-4001 Confusion
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Dead start acceleration issues
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Batteries and Other Stuff. WASRe: Battery model/brand comparison chart
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: [EV] Re: Pile of EV loot
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [EV] All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC motors)
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Military Auction in MA, S-10 EV
by "Roy Nutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Comercial Contactor Controller, lottsa stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
First, thanks for explaining to me how the Zilla produces different
voltages/amps at the motor and the battery. I understand transformers, I
just didn't know that these controllers did that. I thought they were simply
chopper controllers (on/off) with superior heat dissapation. Obviously they
are much more complex than that. Just to make sure I understand: Curtis
controllers don't have this buck function? They just switch on and off
rapidly to power the motor?
Second, all this talk about different ADC 6.7" motors is scaring me. I
didn't build my car, I just got it running again and I'm not exactly sure
which motor I have. For all I know, the current battery/controller
configuration is killing it. Hopefully not, after all it's been driven this
way for years. I'll read the tag today and figure it out.
When I used Uve's calculator yesterday I chose the only 6.7" ADC motor in
the menu. My values could be way off because the motor may be totally
different. The range sure didn't seem right. It claims I'm only going to get
a range of 25 miles and I'm way up in the 30's in real life.
A question about heat: I don't have a temp probe yet. Is there a rough way
to tell if I'm hurting the motor using the "touch test"? On a hot day, when
I arrive at home, the motor is hot, but I can still touch it. It doesn't
sizzle if a drop of water hits the case. I can't leave my hand on it
indefinitely though. Say 5-10 seconds. Is that too hot?
Lastly, some real-world stats for the guy who asked the original 6.7"
redline question:
I'm using mine in a '74 VW Beetle at 128 volts.
Range: 35 miles or more (I haven't run to 80% DOD yet)
1st gear, 0-28 mph: 6000 RPM
2nd gear, 28-52 mph: 6000 RPM
3rd gear, 65-70 mph: ~4000 RPM
4th gear, unused.
Vehicle weight: 3200 lbs.
Thanks,
Rich A.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Battery model/brand comparison chart
> When it comes go golf car batteries, the care you take of them matters
more
> than the brand. That said, I would stick with the brands which have
proven
> useful to EV hobbyists over the years, US Battery and Trojan. Interstate
> Workaholic is the same as US Battery.
>
> I have no experience with "blem" batteries and I'm a bit skeptical. Since
> appearance seldom matters with batteries it's hard for me to understand
why
> anyone would sell them cheaper if all that was wrong was a scuff or a
> scratch, but maybe I'm missing something.
>
> H David an' EVerybody;
You might have missed out, but it isn't that easy. Tony Ascrizzi lived
not too far from Northeast battery, a BIG battery supply house and
distributer in Worcester MA. Being on a first name basis with these guyz he
could/would get the pick of the blems and other stuff. We would go in with
my trusty, rusty Ford Van and come out with a few Pallots of good stuff,
like scuffed or busted off post batteries.Tony was an Ace at recasting
posts! They couldn't, in any conscience sell them as "New"So, they went for
about half price. One of the most amazing finds was pallots of Dynisty gp
27's from UPS's? All we could take for 3 bux a piece!Brand NEW, Never
used!EVeryone we tested with a VOM and if it said 12plus volts we took! To
the point the poor old Ford was overloaded SO badly!Nicads? Hell! They are a
liability? They were glad to GIVE them away.They have to pay to get rid of
them. Got some Alcads brand, havent tested any other than blowing up a few!
They blow up FINE! Better than lousy Led Acids!Ah! Those were the daze!
Of course all this was several years ago, before soaring Lead prices make
every battery valueable for junk if nothing else!We are in the squeeze with
EVERY godamn thing, nowadaze! My local rag, the New Haven
Regurgitater(Register) Had a banner headline(Duh!) 4 bux a gallon by summer,
big pix of 3.15 sign at a NH gas station. It's ALREADY 3.30 here in town,
already.I Imagine solar stuff has gone up in proportion?With electric rate
deregulation CT's electric rates have nearly doubled in the last year. Using
Emron's fine all- American example the dunderheads in power in Hartford,
seat of "Government"I use the term loosly,in Corrupticut. set it up for an
all they will bear in power rates. The Casinoes were supposed to be the
panaseia for our budget woes? Yeah right, the Titanic is coming in Fri, to
NYC to a gala port welcome!Tad tardy, though!
OK the Good Stuff; DID get the Jetta going!!! So I can waft by the gas
stations, like old times!My ass is draggin' til I get my new rear springs!
Pile 600 plus lbs in YOUR Jetta's trunk and it will sit low, too ! STILL
dealing with the godamn Jetta's quirky electrical system;part time lights
and stuff, but I can live with that as the damn car RUNS! Rah!My thouhts
with V Dubs is go with OLDER ones!Bugs, Rabbits, stay back from newer ones
unless you ENJOY quirky electrical systems and crappy quality control;
Headliners falling apart, door handles thst break off or refuse to open the
door. It's no wonder VW got their ass kicked by Japan!Crappy quality
control, a decent car design, but where were/are they made Mexico or some
other 4th world country!?Hoping the Sentra's are a tad better in that dept.
Not off to a good start with the 97, damn key switch you try to unlock the
column to be able to steer car, you have to endlessly diddle with the key so
it will unlock the column . I guess a new lock an' key assembly will fix
that? I miss my good old "Pick an' Pull Parts emporium junk yard! They won't
just let you go out and pick on stuff any more" Insurance Regulations, I
can't let ya back there anymore!" For YEARS I have picked and pulled!Nuts!
You will have to file an environmental Impact Statement to FART in the
future! Do they still have pick yur own Junkyards anymore!?Anywhere?I think
they are in cahoots with the parts dept of the car co's!?They charge an arm
and leg for parts, nowadaze! Can hardly wait for a Freedom or Sunrise!
End of Rant, off in Jetta do do my daily run!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked into it. I think you have it right. Basically by buying the
certificates, you are donating to the construction and operation of clean
electricity generation (which costs more to do) to make it economically
feasible. You buy certificates to cover the production cost difference for
the amount of power you use. I believe that's what Al Gore does to
compensate for his grande electricity use that was all over the press a few
weeks ago. It doesn't mean that the kwh you use was necessarily one
produced cleanly, but if you are replacing one dirty kwh on the grid with a
clean kwh, it really doesn't matter. You can still say you paid to have
your power generated without emmissions.
The only question is, are they really producing much power, or is it like a
lot of shady charities, they produce a few kwh after lining their pockets
with high salaries for the staff? I'd like to see an audit.
Wisconsin seems to be able to generate with wind on their own:
http://www.powerthefuture.com/newsrel/bluesky_greenfield_decision.pdf
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:25 AM
Subject: Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs)
I know that building an EV was top on my list for helping to contribute
less
to global warming. However, I know that many people have concerns about
where they get their power from. I living in Illinois found out that I do
not have the choice to buy renewable energy directly from my power company
unless I buy many Megawatts at a time, which I cannot afford. So to make
a
long story short I found that Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs) do the
same thing as buying the power from renewable. So now technically I will
be
charging my EV with Wind power on the electrical Grid from www.3phases.com
. Does anybody else know about REC's and did I get the explanation
correct?
Hope to see more people doing this in the future.
Best Regards,
Rick Todd
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been running mine @ 144V for 3+ years now, with
no ill-effects.
--- Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am preparing to convert a 1983 VW GTI and have a
> ADC 203-06-4001 motor waiting in the wings. The tag
> on the motor says 72V/96V but can I safely use this
> motor up to 144V? I have seen this motor listed on
> a
> number of EV supplier sites with voltage range
> listing
> from 96V-144V. Whats up with all of this?
>
> Thanks
>
> Joel
> Minneapolis
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
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>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Marty,
In installing your hose fittings on you internal pump face plate, install a
short length of hydraulic brake type hose to a bulkhead fitting on the side
of the transmission bell housing and then install brass shut off valves
there for future take off. That's the connection I am going to use so if you
install or remove a external pump for service without losing all your oil.
Installing brass or stainless SAE inverted flare fitting for hydraulic
fitting, make sure when tightening the hose fitting to the take off
connections, that you apply the correct amount of torque at a low
temperature.
I am going to use power steering hose good for 777 lbs sq.in. which is a
lighter type hose than the 1500 lbs type.
If you hand tighten these connections at a 70 degree temperature and if a
person lives in a area where the temperature gets down below -20 F. Then
these connections shrink and you will have leaks. At -20 I found I can
rotated these fittings with my fingers.
To prevent that from happening, I use a CO2 to cool down these fitting and
then tighten them at that time. You will have to use C02 remove them,
because they feel like there welded on.
I will see what happens without a modulator value with the manual value body
that I will get from TCI.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
> Hi Roland,
>
> I got my trans from a local junk yard. I only got the converter
> eliminator
> from TCI. B&M did make a cable operated modulator eliminator at one time,
> although I don't see it on their site. Considering that most of the
> motors
> I'm looking at produce best power well below 3000 RPM, I may be OK just
> porting power brake vacuum to the modulator to keep the RPM down during
> acceleration, and then venting it to atmospheric to hold 2nd gear longer
> at
> low throttle.
>
> I'm planning on tapping the front pump while I've got the trans apart for
> a
> rebuild. I'll probably try it without an external pump to see what
> happens,
> and then add the pump. I'm guessing that I can use a small pump just to
> prime the front pump and valve body passages, and then the high pressure
> will be able to come up fast enough when the input shaft starts to turn.
> If
> that doesn't do the job, I may look into using one pump for both power
> steering and trans priming. We'll see how it goes.
>
> I'm planning on documenting the project at www.ej-7.com, although I
> haven't
> started the site either. So far I've been busy working on the chassis and
> cleaning up the trans. I haven't got a lot of spare time, so this is
> going
> to take a while.
>
> Marty
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
>
>
> > Hello Marty,
> >
> > It looks like you got your transmission from TCI before I did. Lets us
> > know how it goes, so we can learn from your methods.
> >
> > I am also using a TH-350 turbo, with a torque converter eliminator
> > shaft,
> > but with a manual value body, where I will have to shift it in manual
> > mode. This can eliminate the vacuum modulator.
> >
> > Also if you tap the front pump boss in the pressure side and return
> > side,
> > you can have a hydraulic pump with a limit switch pump up the oil
> > pressure
> > before you take off. I had a local transmission shop show me how to do
> > this.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 5:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
> >
> >
> >> Correction:
> >>
> >> As Bullwinkle used to say, "Guess I don't know my own strength".
> >>
> >> Earlier I guessed the Turbo Hydro to be about 75 or 80 pounds without
> >> the
> >> converter from what it felt like carrying it. I weighed it. The
> >> trans,
> >> without converter, weighs in at 122 lbs. The converter weighs 35. The
> >> TCI
> >> converter eliminator hub weighs 5 lbs. Don't want to leave bad info
> >> floating around.
> >>
> >> I've been thinking about Roger's suggestion that you really need an
> >> upshift
> >> for a passing gear, not a downshift. That sounds like an interesting
> >> use
> >> for an overdrive automatic, normally drive in 3rd, go to overdrive to
> >> pass.
> >>
> >> Marty
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:13 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
> >>
> >>
> >> > The transmission will be an interesting experiment. I haven't
> >> > weighed
> >> > it,
> >> > but from carrying it, I'd guess it's 75 or 80 lbs without the
> >> > converter.
> >> > It's pretty beefy. It may be overkill, but maybe not if I dump 1500
> >> > amps
> >> > through a contactor into a 9 inch motor. It will get me a reverse
> >> > and
> >> > about 2.5 times torque multiplication to get rolling. Another issue
> >> > that
> >> > I will have to address is the vacuum modulator. The Turbo 350
> >> > normally
> >> > uses manifold vacuum to influence shift hardness and, I believe,
> >> > shift
> >> > points. I may have to figure out a way to use modulated power brake
> >> > vacuum to simulate manifold vacuum. I think the tricky thing will be
> >> > seperating shift firmness from shift point. Normally an ICE trans
> >> > raises
> >> > both at full throttle. With an electric, I believe we want to keep
> >> > shift
> >> > points high all the time, but still vary shift firmness.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The bizarre thing is, it doesn't happen when I'm
already in motion-- _ever_; only on dead start. And
it doesn't happen on _every_ dead start; only some of
them.
No, I have not noticed unusual heating, though the
motor does get quite warm, but I'd expect that.
I wish there was a more obvious pattern. I'm
suspecting it is something going on with the motor,
although it has only done it since installing the new
(1200A) Raptor.
I'm have a send out to the manufacturer to see if I
should still (as I was with the 600A model) be
connecting pin 9 on the harness to the 144V contactor
source, just as pin 10.
Weird.
--- Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > 90v x 320a = 28,800 watts = 28.8 horsepower.
> That's
> pretty anemic for accellerating a 3000 lbs car.
>
> My similar weight, similar voltage car draws similar
> peak battery current and has plenty of acceleration
>
> if I start in 1st gear at a 11.5 overall ratio and
> shift at 4000 RPM at 25 MPH and 40 MPH. (For
> efficiency I typically shift 5 MPH higher.) But my
> pack drops only to the 135V I expect during typical
> short bursts, which is 44 kW in and 44 HP out, or
> 50%
> more than Bob's. Bob, sounds like you've got some
> serious resistance lurking around somewhere.
>
> But it's noteworthy to mention that I'm as happy
> with
> my 44 HP EV peak as I was with my 120 HP ICE peak.
> As
> an EV it isn't as good on the freeway and I can't
> floor it continuously as the batteries will start to
> sag after a while, and I haven't taken actual
> acceleration data yet, but I was thinking the
> apples-to-oranges comparison ratio was closer to 1.3
> than twice that. Gotta love that wide RPM high
> torque
> band...
>
> My original differential provided a 9.5 overall
> ratio
> in 1st gear, and was sluggish and would regularly
> overheat the controller. The current differential
> solved that, but I am now battling efficiency,
> looking
> at a new differential that would bring my overall
> ratio up to 13.0. That clutch and transmission sure
> are worth their 5% weight penalty and losses and
> additional maintenance. I also have brake calipers
> from Stainless Steel Brake on order to eliminate my
> chronic front disc brake drag design problem -- they
> barely spin freely at the moment. And I now run the
> tires at max pressure of 35 PSI.
>
> But these latter issues are all minor compared to
> the
> resistance you seem to have Bob. Good luck and let
> us
> know what you find.
>
> Chris
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Still have "Pick A Part" here in Oregon, Bob.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 6:27 AM
Subject: Batteries and Other Stuff. WASRe: Battery model/brand comparison
chart
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Battery model/brand comparison chart
When it comes go golf car batteries, the care you take of them matters
more
than the brand. That said, I would stick with the brands which have
proven
useful to EV hobbyists over the years, US Battery and Trojan. Interstate
Workaholic is the same as US Battery.
I have no experience with "blem" batteries and I'm a bit skeptical.
Since
appearance seldom matters with batteries it's hard for me to understand
why
anyone would sell them cheaper if all that was wrong was a scuff or a
scratch, but maybe I'm missing something.
H David an' EVerybody;
You might have missed out, but it isn't that easy. Tony Ascrizzi lived
not too far from Northeast battery, a BIG battery supply house and
distributer in Worcester MA. Being on a first name basis with these guyz
he
could/would get the pick of the blems and other stuff. We would go in with
my trusty, rusty Ford Van and come out with a few Pallots of good stuff,
like scuffed or busted off post batteries.Tony was an Ace at recasting
posts! They couldn't, in any conscience sell them as "New"So, they went
for
about half price. One of the most amazing finds was pallots of Dynisty gp
27's from UPS's? All we could take for 3 bux a piece!Brand NEW, Never
used!EVeryone we tested with a VOM and if it said 12plus volts we took! To
the point the poor old Ford was overloaded SO badly!Nicads? Hell! They are
a
liability? They were glad to GIVE them away.They have to pay to get rid of
them. Got some Alcads brand, havent tested any other than blowing up a
few!
They blow up FINE! Better than lousy Led Acids!Ah! Those were the daze!
Of course all this was several years ago, before soaring Lead prices make
every battery valueable for junk if nothing else!We are in the squeeze
with
EVERY godamn thing, nowadaze! My local rag, the New Haven
Regurgitater(Register) Had a banner headline(Duh!) 4 bux a gallon by
summer,
big pix of 3.15 sign at a NH gas station. It's ALREADY 3.30 here in town,
already.I Imagine solar stuff has gone up in proportion?With electric rate
deregulation CT's electric rates have nearly doubled in the last year.
Using
Emron's fine all- American example the dunderheads in power in Hartford,
seat of "Government"I use the term loosly,in Corrupticut. set it up for an
all they will bear in power rates. The Casinoes were supposed to be the
panaseia for our budget woes? Yeah right, the Titanic is coming in Fri, to
NYC to a gala port welcome!Tad tardy, though!
OK the Good Stuff; DID get the Jetta going!!! So I can waft by the gas
stations, like old times!My ass is draggin' til I get my new rear springs!
Pile 600 plus lbs in YOUR Jetta's trunk and it will sit low, too ! STILL
dealing with the godamn Jetta's quirky electrical system;part time lights
and stuff, but I can live with that as the damn car RUNS! Rah!My thouhts
with V Dubs is go with OLDER ones!Bugs, Rabbits, stay back from newer ones
unless you ENJOY quirky electrical systems and crappy quality control;
Headliners falling apart, door handles thst break off or refuse to open
the
door. It's no wonder VW got their ass kicked by Japan!Crappy quality
control, a decent car design, but where were/are they made Mexico or some
other 4th world country!?Hoping the Sentra's are a tad better in that
dept.
Not off to a good start with the 97, damn key switch you try to unlock
the
column to be able to steer car, you have to endlessly diddle with the key
so
it will unlock the column . I guess a new lock an' key assembly will fix
that? I miss my good old "Pick an' Pull Parts emporium junk yard! They
won't
just let you go out and pick on stuff any more" Insurance Regulations, I
can't let ya back there anymore!" For YEARS I have picked and pulled!Nuts!
You will have to file an environmental Impact Statement to FART in the
future! Do they still have pick yur own Junkyards anymore!?Anywhere?I
think
they are in cahoots with the parts dept of the car co's!?They charge an
arm
and leg for parts, nowadaze! Can hardly wait for a Freedom or Sunrise!
End of Rant, off in Jetta do do my daily run!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 07:11:38AM -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Peter,
>
> The external hydraulic pump is normally use for starting out and moving at 1
> rpm or a very low rpm. Once your motor gets up to 500 rpm, then the
> transmission internal pump takes over and the external pump goes off line.
>
Do you have a source for such pumps?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 09:27:39AM -0400, Richard Acuti wrote:
> First, thanks for explaining to me how the Zilla produces different
> voltages/amps at the motor and the battery. I understand transformers, I
> just didn't know that these controllers did that. I thought they were
> simply chopper controllers (on/off) with superior heat dissapation.
> Obviously they are much more complex than that. Just to make sure I
> understand: Curtis controllers don't have this buck function? They just
> switch on and off rapidly to power the motor?
A Curtis and a Zilla both do the same transformation. And they both do it by
just chopping the power very fast (PWM) and letting the current keep
flowing through a big (actually several) diode in the 'off' periods.
Its just the nature of how electricity works that, discounting losses, V*I
is always constant. So if PWM is chopping voltage, current gets
multiplied.
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That appears to be a REAL! GM S-10 or EV-1 controller under the hood. Battery
box is a bit freaky however. Battery box used for experiments?
...Roy
From: Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Date: 5/2/07 3:05AM
Subject: Re: Military Auction in MA, S-10 EV
Figures... I spent a couple of years working for a contractor at
Hanscom. Now that I'm in AZ they start selling EVs :-)
Rob
On Apr 28, 2007, at 11:29 PM, Randy Burleson wrote:
> Wish I were closer... for the risk of a lowball bid and pickup, this
> might be a runner, a glider, or a solid source of parts! Looks
> clean and
> in good shape, minus the batteries...
>
> Event ID: SB2860
> Auction URL:
> http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=1194039
> Closing Date: 05/17/2007 05:00PM
> 1997 CHEVROLET S-10 4 X 2 ELECTRIC P/ U TRUCK, MDL- E10603,
> 85KW, GM POWER ELECTRONICS SYSTEM 110, 3 PHASE, LIQUID COOLED AC
> ELECTRIC MOTOR
> NO BATTERIES, BATTERY CASES IN BED OF TRUCK
> RUNNING CONDITION UNKNOWN, TIRE SIZE: P205/ 75R15, BUYER LOADS.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
A couple thoughts.
Are you going to put some sort of check valve on the high side to keep from
pumping back into the external pump? Do you know what valve to use?
Where are you plumbing in the external pump intake? I'm wondering because
you mentioned losing fluid. I'd think we'd want to pull fluid from as close
to the front pump gears intake as possible so as to pull all of the air out
of the filter to front pump intake run. That should make the front pump
pressure come up quicker. I suspect the front pump trying to suck all the
air out of there is what causes a lot of the delay. I suspect that's well
above the fluid level in the pan, so there shouldn't be much fluid loss.
Thanks for the info on the temperature issue. I happen to have a Tenny
thermal chamber in the shop that will go to -50F (I test thermometers with
it), is that cold enough?. I can chill the parts in there. I'm not sure
I'm understanding you correctly though. What are you tapping the pump
casting for? I was assuming pipe thread. Are you installing pipe to
inverted flare adapters, and then using flare fittings on the hoses? I was
contemplating getting some stainless steel braid over Teflon brake caliper
hoses with pipe thread on one end and going straight into the pump with
that, but actually, from the front pump to a bulkhead there shouldn't be any
movement, why not just use steel brake line?
Which parts do you chill? What temperature is ideal, just anything below
what I'm likely to see in winter driving? Would you use Teflon tape on
these connections, pipe dope, or metal to metal?
I'm thinking of reversing the operation of the downshift cable, have it
pulled to passing gear for normal driving to keep the RPM up in the
efficient region, and let it drop out of "Passing gear" to upshift when I
need more torque.
Thanks,
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
Hello Marty,
In installing your hose fittings on you internal pump face plate, install
a short length of hydraulic brake type hose to a bulkhead fitting on the
side of the transmission bell housing and then install brass shut off
valves there for future take off. That's the connection I am going to use
so if you install or remove a external pump for service without losing all
your oil.
Installing brass or stainless SAE inverted flare fitting for hydraulic
fitting, make sure when tightening the hose fitting to the take off
connections, that you apply the correct amount of torque at a low
temperature.
I am going to use power steering hose good for 777 lbs sq.in. which is a
lighter type hose than the 1500 lbs type.
If you hand tighten these connections at a 70 degree temperature and if a
person lives in a area where the temperature gets down below -20 F. Then
these connections shrink and you will have leaks. At -20 I found I can
rotated these fittings with my fingers.
To prevent that from happening, I use a CO2 to cool down these fitting and
then tighten them at that time. You will have to use C02 remove them,
because they feel like there welded on.
I will see what happens without a modulator value with the manual value
body that I will get from TCI.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
Hi Roland,
I got my trans from a local junk yard. I only got the converter
eliminator
from TCI. B&M did make a cable operated modulator eliminator at one
time,
although I don't see it on their site. Considering that most of the
motors
I'm looking at produce best power well below 3000 RPM, I may be OK just
porting power brake vacuum to the modulator to keep the RPM down during
acceleration, and then venting it to atmospheric to hold 2nd gear longer
at
low throttle.
I'm planning on tapping the front pump while I've got the trans apart for
a
rebuild. I'll probably try it without an external pump to see what
happens,
and then add the pump. I'm guessing that I can use a small pump just to
prime the front pump and valve body passages, and then the high pressure
will be able to come up fast enough when the input shaft starts to turn.
If
that doesn't do the job, I may look into using one pump for both power
steering and trans priming. We'll see how it goes.
I'm planning on documenting the project at www.ej-7.com, although I
haven't
started the site either. So far I've been busy working on the chassis
and
cleaning up the trans. I haven't got a lot of spare time, so this is
going
to take a while.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
> Hello Marty,
>
> It looks like you got your transmission from TCI before I did. Lets us
> know how it goes, so we can learn from your methods.
>
> I am also using a TH-350 turbo, with a torque converter eliminator
> shaft,
> but with a manual value body, where I will have to shift it in manual
> mode. This can eliminate the vacuum modulator.
>
> Also if you tap the front pump boss in the pressure side and return
> side,
> you can have a hydraulic pump with a limit switch pump up the oil
> pressure
> before you take off. I had a local transmission shop show me how to do
> this.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 5:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
>
>
>> Correction:
>>
>> As Bullwinkle used to say, "Guess I don't know my own strength".
>>
>> Earlier I guessed the Turbo Hydro to be about 75 or 80 pounds without
>> the
>> converter from what it felt like carrying it. I weighed it. The
>> trans,
>> without converter, weighs in at 122 lbs. The converter weighs 35.
>> The
>> TCI
>> converter eliminator hub weighs 5 lbs. Don't want to leave bad info
>> floating around.
>>
>> I've been thinking about Roger's suggestion that you really need an
>> upshift
>> for a passing gear, not a downshift. That sounds like an interesting
>> use
>> for an overdrive automatic, normally drive in 3rd, go to overdrive to
>> pass.
>>
>> Marty
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: Motor, controller & battery recommendations?
>>
>>
>> > The transmission will be an interesting experiment. I haven't
>> > weighed
>> > it,
>> > but from carrying it, I'd guess it's 75 or 80 lbs without the
>> > converter.
>> > It's pretty beefy. It may be overkill, but maybe not if I dump 1500
>> > amps
>> > through a contactor into a 9 inch motor. It will get me a reverse
>> > and
>> > about 2.5 times torque multiplication to get rolling. Another issue
>> > that
>> > I will have to address is the vacuum modulator. The Turbo 350
>> > normally
>> > uses manifold vacuum to influence shift hardness and, I believe,
>> > shift
>> > points. I may have to figure out a way to use modulated power brake
>> > vacuum to simulate manifold vacuum. I think the tricky thing will
>> > be
>> > seperating shift firmness from shift point. Normally an ICE trans
>> > raises
>> > both at full throttle. With an electric, I believe we want to keep
>> > shift
>> > points high all the time, but still vary shift firmness.
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
> From: damon henry
> > I still think the fact that the old timers on the list don't run
> > contact controllers speaks volumes, so why not? Come on Bob,
> > Lee, John, and anyone else that used to use one and now does not,
> > what gives?
>
> I *still* regularly use contactor controllers, though mainly in smaller
vehicles. The main reasons I don't have one in my LeCar EV, and don't plan
to use one in my Sunrise are simple:
>
> 1. I'm richer today. I used contactor controllers when I had less
> money to spend.
>
> 2. I've used up most of the good-sized contactors in my "junk box".
> But if/when I find a good deal, I'll buy more for my next EV.
>
> 3. I like to experiment. As more electronic controllers get sold,
> more used or broken ones are available cheap. I have *never*
> bought a brand new controller! ;-)
>
> 4. I want my wife to drive my EV. She has higher expectations than
> I do.
>
> 5. I want to be able to sell EVs to other people, and have them
> work like the gas pedal that they are accustomed to.
>
> 6. Finally, we grow. We learn. As we climb the ladder, we don't
> keep doing the same old things forever; we want to try something
> new, learn, move forward, get more ambitious.
>
> > So take us back to that day when you got your first modern
> > controller and tell us how it felt to hang up the contactor
> > controllers for good.
>
> It hasn't happened that way for me. My first electronic controllers were
SCR. They were better than contactor controllers in some ways, but worse in
others. They didn't "wean" me from contactors.
>
> Later ones used transistors (MOSFETs, IGBTs). They worked better, but cost
more and were less reliable. I put a Curtis in my Comutavan, but it was
slower and accelerated worse, so I went back to the contactor.
>
> We recently put a Zapi controller in Tim Medeck's Corvair EV. It was a
turtle -- it couldn't even climb the ramps to get it onto a trailer. We
should have used a contactor controller. But he got a Zilla for it (it's for
his sister).
>
> > When it comes to EV's, I'm like the spoiled kid whos parents are
> > frustrated with me because I don't seem to appreciate all that
> > they give me, but I can't, because I never went through the
> > struggles in life they did, ironically, because they take such
> > good care of me...
>
> You *can't* appreciate what others have done, because *you* didn't do it.
Everything is easy to the person who doesn't have to do it.
>
> But, you can't expect everyone to start at the top of the ladder. We
aren't all born rich; most people have to work their way up. If the only way
to have an EV is to buy a Siemens AC motor and controller, PFC charger, and
LiIon batteries, then there would be almost no EVs. And there never *would*
be any mass market -- EVs would just be playthings for the rich, like
automobiles at the turn of the century.
>
> Hopefully, the EV list is training a new batch of Henry Fords, who are
inventing EV versions of his model T right now. The EV that puts the world
on wheels won't come from Tesla or Phoenix -- it will come from Jerry Dycus
or Lee Hart or someone reading this list right now. They will say, "I'll be
damned! I don't *need* $100,000 to get an EV! I can convert my old ICE for a
few thousand! Sure, it won't set records, but IT WILL DO THE JOB FOR 90% OF
THE MARKET!"
>
> Contactor controllers, and flooded batteries, and DC motors etc. are the
training wheels that will teach you how to build EVs *NOW*! Not someday when
you're rich, or when/if the car companies or government decides it for you.
> Hi Damon,Lee an' All;
Well, Lees said it for me. I HAD various contacter controllers because
when I first started out I had a bunch of Hartman, and HB contactors, single
and double throw jobs from my EFP daze. Contactors are forever, they don't
go stale, or spoil, If you keep them indoors in warm places. They won't
REPRODUCE in warm dark places, though! Sigh!At EFP , we had talked about
upgrading Bob Aronson's Mars2 controllers which were series , series
parallel and full series with a 120 volt battery . Bob had the battery
divided up into 4 30 volt blocks, 8 cables going to the Hartman contactor
box behind the back seat. It was about the size of a small suitcase. chock
FULL of contacters and bus bars to switch things including a small starting
resister grid, for 30 volts. Forgretabout "Automatic" starts! You used the
clutch and gears ALL the time, if you didn't want to rattle rour tooth
fillings out! Jurky! You bet! But the clutch smoothed it out!
A few of us shop guys thought we could improve on it a bet. Simplify it.
Using big diodes to cut down on the number of contactors and smooth it up a
bit. The Rectactor, as Lee calls it was born!By using rectofiers, which pass
current in one direction IF they are working right<g>! By hooking up the 30
volt battery packs in PARALLEL through rectemfiers, you could use a double
pole comntacter to just close and step your power up to 60 volts WITHOUT a
short circus!! And no "Pause" as you went up, like the old Hartman Box!v IF
it doidn't break, monentararaly ya got a "Short"For 120 volts you only need
a single pole to "Shunt" the two 60 volt packs into full series 120 volts.
Natures most perfect controller as you are switched ALL the diodes out and
you are at full power! When you let off the contactors break down in reverse
of starting up, so you are breaking current down gently in the steps as you
come down. Oh I didn't mention the "Line Switch" contacter you pull in to
go!
Before being carried off in clouds of contentment here, here is the
downside; Relearning to drive a stickshift. Not a problem for us old farts
that started, thousands of years ago( a '50 three in the tree Ford) for me.
I was big enough to reach the pedals as a kid, still am!So drivin' a
contactor setup is easy enough, I ran my Rabbit with a 3 speed for a few
years. I made it smooth, by driving skill.Othrer downsides is MILES of 2
ought cable to hook everything up!8, count them! cables to the controller
from the badd-eries! Pain in the ass to wire.However I have thought for a
bare bones job, you could get by with just a simple series parallel setup
with two contactors and a big honkin' starting resister for parking and
super soft starts. I used to usually take off in click, click click, FULL
power mode most of the time, using a 5 speed box to select road speed.Only 4
power leads to deal with! I think Jerry D. ran the Lumberghini with that
setup?
But I have often thought the damn contactor setup is looking better all
the time as the money and TIME to get a squalid state box FIXED!And the only
reason Contactors are brought out of the mists of EV history is the cost and
time involved in getting a decent solid state box.IF the damn Zillas were
easy to get, the Cursets being able to be fixed in a reasonable amount of
money and time. My contactor controller NEVER let me down, I FIXED it oince
by the roadside when I tightened the lead to my roller can "Potbox" setup.
You need to cobble up a roller micro switch cam setup to TELL the contactors
what do do. You setit up with a popsicle stick in the jaws of the line
switch so the motor won't go while yur adjusting the cam' s "Timing". Not
rocket science, but not for the faint hearted. A box of EV "Junque" from
years past helps, too<g>!
I think you could scrounge diodes, contactors etc from E-BAY, and fork
truck Junkyards. Hey J. Wayland! Yur in that biz, don't they junk out old
contactor forklifts?HB and Hartman have morphed into Cutler Hammer, I think
and those old contactor we all knew and loved are still out there, for about
a mortgage payment's worth, I'm afraid? So how gooda ya at scrounging!?
Drum controllers? A lotta work! Been there done that. They work great in
old streetcars, but are a pain in the ass to build and the arc supression
issue, too. I arced my first attempts to death as going from speed to speed
was arcky as hell!With decent arc quenching etc I guess they will work 100
years or more in a car. The electrical engineers of 100 years ago were a
hellova lot smarter than Me! I EVen tried a rotating brush setup LONG ago in
my Electric car deformative years. Ya know a small motor, to controll
"pulses" of power to the traction motor. It was better as a lighting device
than a controller. Can you say Arc supression? I din't know how to controll
THAT! MAYBE it can be done? Hell with it! Contactors are smoother and less
dramatic!
After all, the racers of today are rediscovering RR tech of the turn of
the century, the LAST one, 1890's. Series paralleling Regen, interpoles,
field weaking,(shunting) brush shifting.Our RR heritage, the good, clever
folks that brought the electric trolley car and locomotives from a curiosity
to a workaday marvel in about 10-15 years. True World, I won't say American
heros, that brought power to the masses. Drop the nickel in the slot
(turnstyle)and RIDE, World!
France's TGV? The ghosts of Edison, Sprague, Tesla, Van Depoele,Daft and
other forgotten heroes, smiling in the backround as TGV rocketed by at 357
MPH. You didn't see them? Sorry. I did!
My two contacters worth
Bob
> --
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--- Begin Message ---
On 4/30/07, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I beg to differ, using 4 contactors on 24,48, 96 taps into the battery
string is about as simple as it gets.
serial/paralle switches, Copper disks and bars and sliding arrangements
sounds complicated.
Jack
The "copper bars and sliding disks" are ways of making high power
contactors. Using field weakening and starting resistors are ways to
get smoother control using more speed steps.
I'm assuming you're not saying that it would be a good idea to simply
tap into the pack and get whatever voltage you want? You would end up
killing your first two batteries while your top batteries (48-96v)
would be almost full.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
