EV Digest 6726
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: FW: Batteries and Other Stuff. WASRe: Battery model/brand comparison
chart
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Suspension and weight distribution
by "Miller, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs)
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: [EV] Re: Pile of EV loot
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Anyone know any history on this EV on E-bay right now?
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Potential Candidates
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Suspension and weight distribution
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Very Interesting Senate Hearings - LONG
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Potential Candidates
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Very Interesting Senate Hearings - LONG
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: FW: Batteries and Other Stuff. WASRe: Battery model/brand comparison
chart
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Potential Candidates
by "Jo Prichard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Joe Batt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) bigger siamese motor
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: bigger siamese motor
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC motors)
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Battery model/brand comparison chart
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: List settings
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC motors)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: [EV] All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC
motors)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Written by Bob Rice
? I miss my good old "Pick an' Pull Parts emporium junk yard! They
> won't
> just let you go out and pick on stuff any more" Insurance Regulations, I
> can't let ya back there anymore!" For YEARS I have picked and pulled!Nuts!
> You will have to file an environmental Impact Statement to FART in the
> future! Do they still have pick yur own Junkyards anymore!?Anywhere?
We still have a few left here.
My favorite is even paved. http://vincesupullit.com/
Come on over... bring a list.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was counting on more of the weight in the bed being transferred to the
front axle than appears to be happening. I stopped in at a local
Firestone and they said I could add additional leaf springs and heavy
duty shocks to the rear end and drop springs to the front.
"Does dropping the front and raising the rear back to ICE levels result
in weight transfer from the rear to the front?"
This is an arguable point I say to some extent yes but just minimally. I
would still suggest the heavy duty springs and shocks in the rear and
then take it somewhere to get the axles weighed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where you get your electricity-- maybe this isn't OT?
Anyway, we produce electricity with photovoltaic panels at home, more
than enough to provide all of our electricity use, but I am not
allowed to say we produce our own electricity because we sell the
"green tags," or Renewable Energy Certificates. My wife works in
this field. I can tell you that a very large percentage of the money
you pay for green tags goes to renewable electricity generation.
There is a website that details the percentages various utilities
spend on administrative and marketing costs vs. actual production.
If you contact me directly by email I can supply that.
We purchase our utility's green power product also, because we
purchase some power when we're not producing-- and give back a lot
when we are producing!
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They have them at or can be order from a hydraulic shop. Also talk to
transmission shops for source of supply that do this type of work. Some
small electric small hydraulic pumps for linear actuators for convertible
tops and other lift equipment works too.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EV] Re: Pile of EV loot
> On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 07:11:38AM -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Peter,
> >
> > The external hydraulic pump is normally use for starting out and moving
> > at 1
> > rpm or a very low rpm. Once your motor gets up to 500 rpm, then the
> > transmission internal pump takes over and the external pump goes off
> > line.
> >
>
> Do you have a source for such pumps?
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
> http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
> http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
> | Minnie Driver, Grosse Point
> Blank
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1988 Subaru 2WD Item number: 290085206796
Who built it? When?
Steve
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/2/07, Jo Prichard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Tim
> What are your goals and budget?
I guess my total budget is $17k which doesn't leave me with much room for
the donor vehicle! Certainly it's not worth buying new because most of the
value will be lost in the first year and a bit so it will be better to buy
the same shape but preowned. I have a friend that owns a large repair \
panel beater shop that I'm hoping to convince to build for me once the plan
has been formalised.
Hmm.. no you can do it if you don't pay for the labor :) That assumes
you are having something like $7k for the conversion parts, including
battery. You could go cheaper.. it's up to you. You'd be trading down
first range, and then reliability as you went cheaper.
If the conversion costs me 10k then I'm going to end up with a 2nd Hand Chev
Spark (Matiz?) but I'd much rather it be a Jazz or Merc A Class... (I'm not
sure all the batteries will fit in the Spark?)
I'm looking at a Jazz size, Range of 30 miles, top speed of 45mph but able
to handle up a hill or two (not sure of the gradient).
Oh.. you just want a NEV? (Neighborhood electric vehicle). Well,
you';ll definitely be able to stay inside budget them, and a range of
30 miles at 45 MPH is easy to do.
I'm sure someone locally (Cape Town, South Africa) must have built an EV
before but I've not heard of it. I think there's an opportunity to swing
some sponsorship either from a Battery Outlet or some other Green aware
company which might help fund it over time and put their Brand all over the
vehicle. Out here in the sticks in Africa it would be a novelty for sure so
I think there's a possibility I'd pull that off.
Has anyone else out there had success at getting sponsorship for their EV?
I also just noticed that my Electricity costs $0.02 KWH, is that cheaper
than the US\UK Europe?
That is definitely cheaper than the US!!
If you don't need to go highway speeds, you can go with smaller,
better batteries.
Here in the states there are a number of distributors of parts that
you can use. However I did find an electric scooter company in your
country:
http://www.scootersrus.co.za/
They might have connections and contacts for local parts and may be
able to help you get your EV built.
Basically you'll need:
Motor
Batteries
Cables (lots of em)
Tools to handle cables and crimping cables
Cable ends
Accelerator pot
Motor Controller
Perhaps electric vacuum pump to handle power brakes
Perhaps electric pump or other booster to handle power steering
Meters of some sort (Amps, Volts, etc)
Steel bits
Welding torch
and other bits and bobs and tools
Here is a US distributor that has a few 'kits' put together that you
can look at to get an idea of what is involved.
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/catalog.shtml
Here is another distributor that has a lot of good information on his web site
http://www.evparts.com/firstpage.php
If I were you, I would check with that scooter place first to see if
they have information on local sources for motors, parts and etc. as
well as expertise in EV conversion or a local club you can join.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am quite sure the only way to transfer weight is to move batteries from the
bed to the engine compartment. Springs and shocks can level the truck but will
not transfer the weight. If weight is behind the rear axle it will lift the
front end. If it is just in front of the rear axle then some weight will
transfer to the front but most over the rear. It is a simple statics problem.
If the length between the front and rear wheels is 10 ft and say the batteries
are 1000 lbs and the batteries are centred 1 ft in front of the rear axle. It
will add 100 lbs to the front wheels and 900 to the rear.
If the batteres are centered over the rear wheels then 0 lbs will be over the
front and all 1000 lbs will be on the rear wheels.
If the center of the batteries is one foot behind the rear axle it will
actually take 100 lbs off the front end and be adding 1100 lbs to the rear.
springs and shocks will not change this it will only compensate for the sag.
you can see this by getting two bathroom scales a stout board and a couple of
car batteries. Put the board across the scales say 10 ft apart. Then try
sliding the two batteries between ths scales.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: "Miller, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: RE: Suspension and weight distribution
Date: Wed May 2, 2007 11:21 am
Size: 583 bytes
To: "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
I was counting on more of the weight in the bed being transferred to the
front axle than appears to be happening. I stopped in at a local
Firestone and they said I could add additional leaf springs and heavy
duty shocks to the rear end and drop springs to the front.
"Does dropping the front and raising the rear back to ICE levels result
in weight transfer from the rear to the front?"
This is an arguable point I say to some extent yes but just minimally. I
would still suggest the heavy duty springs and shocks in the rear and
then take it somewhere to get the axles weighed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would the drawbacks be of just having three different strings at
three different voltages? The 12V string would be one big Ah battery
for providing lots of starting power. The next voltage up would be
smaller Ah batteries, and the next voltage up smaller Ah batteries. Use
as many strings as you need. All strings would be connected at their
negative terminals, and a multi-throw contactor would select which
string you want, maybe even using microswitches that get pushed by the
stick shift. Add in field weakening tied to the accelerator pedal for
finer speed control within each string.
For charging, you could have a separate charger for each string. Or, it
seems you could use a Basic Stamp or other processor to switch a single
charger between each string. On a PFC-30, for example, replace the
voltage pot with an electronic pot. The Stamp monitors the pack
voltage, turns off the PFC-30 when the first pack reaches full, changes
the electronic pot to a different voltage, switches a multi-throw
contactor to a different string and starts the PFC-30 again.
What complications haven't I thought of?
Bill Dennis
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
On 4/30/07, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I beg to differ, using 4 contactors on 24,48, 96 taps into the battery
string is about as simple as it gets.
serial/paralle switches, Copper disks and bars and sliding arrangements
sounds complicated.
Jack
The "copper bars and sliding disks" are ways of making high power
contactors. Using field weakening and starting resistors are ways to
get smoother control using more speed steps.
I'm assuming you're not saying that it would be a good idea to simply
tap into the pack and get whatever voltage you want? You would end up
killing your first two batteries while your top batteries (48-96v)
would be almost full.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got wind of this thanks to Felix and the CalCars News Feed....
Some one may have already POSTED this, but these hearings are very
interesting.
The CEO of A123Systems, and Tesla, and others..
( wish there were MP3 Audio versions... Im a slow reader...)
http://www.finance.senate.gov/sitepages/hearing050107.htm
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BIll-
One disadvantage would be that , since you are only drawing power from a few
batteries at a time, the power you draw from each battery may be very high.
It would certainly be much higher than if all the batteries were used at
once. Peukert's effect - particularly with flooded batteries - might
reduce your range dramatically because of the high current draw.
You may also end up with very short battery lives.
If you were using AGMs ( as opposed to floodies), this wouldn't be as much
of a problem.
Phil
From: Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 09:40:45 -0600
What would the drawbacks be of just having three different strings at
three different voltages? The 12V string would be one big Ah battery for
providing lots of starting power. The next voltage up would be smaller Ah
batteries, and the next voltage up smaller Ah batteries. Use as many
strings as you need. All strings would be connected at their negative
terminals, and a multi-throw contactor would select which string you want,
maybe even using microswitches that get pushed by the stick shift. Add in
field weakening tied to the accelerator pedal for finer speed control
within each string.
For charging, you could have a separate charger for each string. Or, it
seems you could use a Basic Stamp or other processor to switch a single
charger between each string. On a PFC-30, for example, replace the voltage
pot with an electronic pot. The Stamp monitors the pack voltage, turns off
the PFC-30 when the first pack reaches full, changes the electronic pot to
a different voltage, switches a multi-throw contactor to a different string
and starts the PFC-30 again.
What complications haven't I thought of?
Bill Dennis
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
On 4/30/07, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I beg to differ, using 4 contactors on 24,48, 96 taps into the battery
string is about as simple as it gets.
serial/paralle switches, Copper disks and bars and sliding arrangements
sounds complicated.
Jack
The "copper bars and sliding disks" are ways of making high power
contactors. Using field weakening and starting resistors are ways to
get smoother control using more speed steps.
I'm assuming you're not saying that it would be a good idea to simply
tap into the pack and get whatever voltage you want? You would end up
killing your first two batteries while your top batteries (48-96v)
would be almost full.
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as
$771/month*
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more quick thing, if you haven't had time to go over the archive here..
You could save quite a bit of money if you can find a car that has a
blown engine and is going cheap. Maybe you can talk to local car shops
and have them keep an eye out for a small, nice car with a bad engine
for you. That is, assuming you can pay cash!
Another source of wisdom here, unlikely though it may be, is race car
guys. I don't know if you have much stock racing in SA, but those guys
are very good scroungers. They will know where to find car bodies and
parts for less money. You might even get them to help you with your
conversion if they get interested in the idea, but race car guys like
speed so they will try to convince you to go faster. :-)
There is a LOT of information in the EV archive about all of this..
you'll want to spend some time doing searches in it to learn more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/2/07, Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Got wind of this thanks to Felix and the CalCars News Feed....
Some one may have already POSTED this, but these hearings are very
interesting.
The CEO of A123Systems, and Tesla, and others..
( wish there were MP3 Audio versions... Im a slow reader...)
http://www.finance.senate.gov/sitepages/hearing050107.htm
Thanks for that. Very interesting. I hope something comes of it.
Rich Rudman might want to check out page 5 and 6 of the A123 presentation!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Phil. That's why I suggested that the lower-voltage strings
comprise higher Ah batteries. Also, the lower-voltage strings wouldn't
be used for very long, just mostly during acceleration. So, they
wouldn't be murdered by extended overuse. This also means that they
wouldn't drop to a low SOC, so they'd charge fairly quickly.
Bill Dennis
Phil wrote:
BIll-
One disadvantage would be that , since you are only drawing power from a
few batteries at a time, the power you draw from each battery may be
very high. It would certainly be much higher than if all the batteries
were used at once. Peukert's effect - particularly with flooded
batteries - might reduce your range dramatically because of the high
current draw.
You may also end up with very short battery lives.
If you were using AGMs ( as opposed to floodies), this wouldn't be as
much of a problem.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Timothy
Oh.. you just want a NEV? (Neighborhood electric vehicle). Well,
you';ll definitely be able to stay inside budget them, and a range of
30 miles at 45 MPH is easy to do.
If you don't need to go highway speeds, you can go with smaller,
better batteries.
You could save quite a bit of money if you can find a car that has a
blown engine and is going cheap. Maybe you can talk to local car shops
and have them keep an eye out for a small, nice car with a bad engine
for you. That is, assuming you can pay cash!
I have the $17k in cash so I hopefully I can use that to my advantage. A
friend of mine owns a repair\panel beating shop and I'm going to speak to
him about keeping an eye\ear out for potential donors. Building it
specifically as a NEV is fine but the one prerequisite is coming up with a
configuration that will give me satisfactory acceleration from a standing
start on a relatively steep hill.
If for instance I get the Light Vehicle Manual Transmission Kit with the
following components will it be able to handle the acceleration from a
standing start on a hill like a normal ICE?
Motor, Solectria AC24 with NEMA C-Face & 1 1/8" Keyed Shaft
Adaptor
Control System, Solectria DMOC445
Thanks for the info, it's really helping me clear a bunch of things up.
Regards
Jo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[I'm a software guy and very new to the EV seen. I'm planning a go
cart, but thinking about cars...]
Has anyone seen a software controlled contactor controller? If it
was completely software controlled, then you could handle the
complexity of using different sets of batteries over time even for
the same voltages. (Even respond to unequal batteries.)
I think the downside is reality. Essentially, you'd be making a high
power crossbar switch to dynamically reconfigure the battery pack.
It would end up being more expensive, complex, and fragile than a FET
based controller anyway.
(I may be misusing the term crossbar switch. I mean the function,
not implementation of an old phone switch.)
To execute the logic, an old PC is essentially free, but the IO
interface will cost you a couple hundred (unless you can get by with
the parallel port) and the relays would cost you (especially if you
built the full out crossbar type switching). You'd need a line for
each battery post, so if you want 4 speeds, you'd need 4 batteries,
you'd need an 8x8 switch, which would be 256 relays.
I thought that since you are switching each battery individually, the
power is less and you could use less expensive relays, but now that I
think about it, if you want the full voltage of the pack, then all
the current will be running through all the relays, and you can't
skimp. I suppose that you could have one main robust relay, so the
reconfiguration always occurs on an open circuit, which I would think
would reduce the likely hood of welding or burning a relay. (but
what do I know... I'm a software guy)
You also have to wire both terminals of every battery to the
"controller" which would be more cabling.
I spelled all of this out, hoping that someone would improve on it :-)
Joe
On May 2, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
On 4/30/07, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I beg to differ, using 4 contactors on 24,48, 96 taps into the
battery
string is about as simple as it gets.
serial/paralle switches, Copper disks and bars and sliding
arrangements
sounds complicated.
Jack
The "copper bars and sliding disks" are ways of making high power
contactors. Using field weakening and starting resistors are ways to
get smoother control using more speed steps.
I'm assuming you're not saying that it would be a good idea to simply
tap into the pack and get whatever voltage you want? You would end up
killing your first two batteries while your top batteries (48-96v)
would be almost full.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marty Hewes wrote:
Can you really get 7kw out of an alternator that was designed to do
about 2?
Yes, you really can. There's a catch, of course. First, automotive
alternators have low efficiency (60-70%), so you get a *lot* of waste
heat! It will quickly overheat if asked to do this for more than a
matter of minutes.
Second, it requires very high RPM. This is hard on its bearings and the
drive belt. They won't last all that long.
That sounds like it would get hot. I'm also wondering what kind of belt
drive it would take to drive 7kw? Probably not the original single V belt.
Actually, the original v-belt or flat belt in some vehicles can handle
the power at high enough RPM. The speed is high, so the torque is low.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here was a post from Lee Hart last August that might also work with the
multi-string idea. You could replace a car's stick shift with a
forward-backward lever that contacted the bolt heads mentioned in Lee's
description
Lee Hart posted:
That's what they did on the big rotary switch controllers for trolley
cars and the likes. Think of a big slate panel with bolt heads arranged
in a circle. Each bolt head has a dime-sized bit of silver brazed onto
it. The wires connect to the other side of the panel with these bolts.
A big rotary arm moves a sliding contact over the bolt heads to
make/break connections. Arcing occurs on the edges, not the faces of the
contacts.
The trick is that there are intermediate contacts between positions. The
shorting bar is wide enough to short two adjacent contacts as it moves.
The intermediate contacts have resistors in series, to always provide a
path for the current as the switch is moved.
Example (view with a fixed-width font like Courier):
||
12v__________O ||---------to motor
||
__/\/\__O \movable shorting bar
|
24v_|________O
As the shorting bar is moved
1. the motor gets straight 12v, resistor not connected
2. motor gets 12v, resistor connected between 12v and 24v
3. motor gets 24v thru resistor
4. motor gets 24v direct, resistor shorted to 24v
5. motor gets 24v direct, resisto not connected
Crude, but no arcing or noise! 100% efficient if you only pass through
the resistive positions for a fraction of a second.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder how a siamese version of this motor would do.......
http://www.amsuper.com/products/motorsGenerators/104074509641.cfm
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wanna see the controller and emergency shutoff contactor. How do you
throttle this thing, with the rods in a nuke reactor?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: bigger siamese motor
I wonder how a siamese version of this motor would do.......
http://www.amsuper.com/products/motorsGenerators/104074509641.cfm
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So if I understand this right, controllers are rated for motor amps, but
battery draw will be somewhat less than that? So a 1K Zilla won't really
try to draw 1K amps from the battery pack? Is this why the fuses sold for
between the batteries and the motor are typically rated lower than the
controller?
TIA,
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 8:27 AM
Subject: All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC motors)
First, thanks for explaining to me how the Zilla produces different
voltages/amps at the motor and the battery. I understand transformers, I
just didn't know that these controllers did that. I thought they were
simply chopper controllers (on/off) with superior heat dissapation.
Obviously they are much more complex than that. Just to make sure I
understand: Curtis controllers don't have this buck function? They just
switch on and off rapidly to power the motor?
Second, all this talk about different ADC 6.7" motors is scaring me. I
didn't build my car, I just got it running again and I'm not exactly sure
which motor I have. For all I know, the current battery/controller
configuration is killing it. Hopefully not, after all it's been driven
this way for years. I'll read the tag today and figure it out.
When I used Uve's calculator yesterday I chose the only 6.7" ADC motor in
the menu. My values could be way off because the motor may be totally
different. The range sure didn't seem right. It claims I'm only going to
get a range of 25 miles and I'm way up in the 30's in real life.
A question about heat: I don't have a temp probe yet. Is there a rough way
to tell if I'm hurting the motor using the "touch test"? On a hot day,
when I arrive at home, the motor is hot, but I can still touch it. It
doesn't sizzle if a drop of water hits the case. I can't leave my hand on
it indefinitely though. Say 5-10 seconds. Is that too hot?
Lastly, some real-world stats for the guy who asked the original 6.7"
redline question:
I'm using mine in a '74 VW Beetle at 128 volts.
Range: 35 miles or more (I haven't run to 80% DOD yet)
1st gear, 0-28 mph: 6000 RPM
2nd gear, 28-52 mph: 6000 RPM
3rd gear, 65-70 mph: ~4000 RPM
4th gear, unused.
Vehicle weight: 3200 lbs.
Thanks,
Rich A.
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
F.Y.I.
I just purchased (6) T-105's for my Wheelhorse C-185 tractor.
$95 each, and that was a discounted price at the (12) or more quantity
purchase.
The last ones I bought were $60 each "Ouch".
That was although almost 8 years ago. July 1998.
I feel I got good life out of the Trojans, so I bought another pack.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery model/brand comparison chart
I'm guessing that this is your first pack?
If so, and assuming they provide enough range for your needs, buy the
cheapest ones. Most folks murder their first set of batteries during
the learning process and there is no sense in paying a lot for batteries
that will die an untimely death.
That being said, I'd probably go with the T-105s or US-2200s, unless
there was a significant cost savings on one of the other types. Both of
these batteries have good reputations in EVs and are generally
considered to provide the best bang for the buck.
> I've been searching/looking at many batteries by brand and model. I
> have composed a chart below. What would you suggest a person buy?
> Being quite an investment, I certainly would like some insight from
> you seasoned
> EV'rs:
>
> Battery per Brand Comparison:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20hr/Rate Volts Weight
>
> TROJAN:
>
> T-145 145 260 6vdc 72lbs
> T-105 115 225 6vdc 62lbs
>
> US Battery:
>
> US-145 154 6vdc 70lbs
> US-125 140 6vdc 67lbs
> US-2200 122 6vdc 63lbs
>
> Interstate:
>
> U2400 154 251 6vdc 70lbs
> U2300 140 242 6vdc 67lbs
> U2200 122 232 6vdc 63lbs
> U2000 114 216 6vdc 59lbs
>
> NAPA:
>
> 8144 107 186 6vdc 59lbs
> 8146 135 226 6vdc 65lbs
>
> EXIDE:
>
> GC2-H 145 xxx 6vdc xxlbs
> GC-5 135 xxx 6vdc xxlbs
> E-3600 110 xxx 6vdc xxlbs
>
> SamsClub:
>
> GC2 PwrFast 219 6vdc xxlbs
>
> AdVantage+:
>
> A1055 105 220 6vdc xxlbs
> A1255 125 235 6vdc xxlbs
>
> I have located a vendor, of new battery BLEM's in many brands. Is it
> safe to say these are electrically safe/viable, and just have cosmetic
> issues?
>
> I hope all of the above isn't a repeat, I couldn't find a comparison
> chart in the archives. If it has been covered, please forgive me for
> reposting the question.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
I wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geoff,
There is an instruction page called Electric Vehicle Email Discussion
List Instructions at http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html that
describes various actions that you may want to take and the common
commands to get them done. If you list the EV Album in your favorites
folder http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ you can click on EV Resources
and then EVDL to get the above instructions anytime you need them.
You replied to a digest of messages so your E-mail was very large. When
you reply to a digest of messages, you can delete most of the content
that is not relevant. This will save on resources getting messages out.
I deleted everything except your message in this reply.
I have tried a few of the listproc commands and learned a little as the
instructions are very good.
Good luck,
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Geoffrey Strawbridge
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:33 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: List settings
Hello,
Can anyone tell me how you adjust the settings for this list. Ex.
digest vs. individual post and how to turn on and off email etc.
Thanks, Geoff
Geoffrey Strawbridge
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On May 1, 2007, at 9:18 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
>
> EV Digest 6719
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) Re: Dead start acceleration issues
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 2) RE: HARD TIME ON CURTIS WARRANTY CLAIM? (WAS Re: Newest Curtis
> controllers OK to buy now for 120V EV? Or, go with Zilla controller?)
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(snip)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
First, thanks for explaining to me how the Zilla produces different
voltages/amps at the motor and the battery. I understand transformers, I
just didn't know that these controllers did that. I thought they were
simply chopper controllers (on/off) with superior heat dissapation.
Obviously they are much more complex than that. Just to make sure I
understand: Curtis controllers don't have this buck function? They just
switch on and off rapidly to power the motor?
*All* PWM controllers do this; the Zilla, Curtis, Auburn, DCP, Zapi, and
even all the old SCR controllers (GE, Sevcon, etc.). It's a design trick
learned at least 50 years ago, and used on every controller designed by
anyone who has done any research at all into motor controllers.
A question about heat: I don't have a temp probe yet. Is there a rough
way to tell if I'm hurting the motor using the "touch test"? On a hot
day, when I arrive at home, the motor is hot, but I can still touch it.
> It doesn't sizzle if a drop of water hits the case. I can't leave my
> hand on it indefinitely though. Say 5-10 seconds. Is that too hot?
Then it's OK. If it's too hot to hold your hand on, then it's too hot.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
A Curtis and a Zilla both do the same transformation. And they both
do it by just chopping the power very fast (PWM) and letting the
current keep flowing through a big (actually several) diode in the
'off' periods.
Its just the nature of how electricity works that, discounting losses,
V*I is always constant. So if PWM is chopping voltage, current gets
multiplied.
It's not *quite* that simple. A key point is that the output must be
inductive. In the general-purpose case, there is a physical inductor. In
motor controllers, they usually "cheat" and use the motor's inductance.
The inductance is necessary to smooth the current; without it, you would
get the huge on/off current pulses that you would otherwise expect.
Another key point is that the input must be capacitive. In the general
purpose case, there are physical capacitors on the input. In EV
controllers, they sometimes "cheat" and use the battery's capacitance.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
Some comments inserted----
--- childreypa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ok, after a trip to the library and some checked out
> books, this is what
> I've come up with.
>
> 1. If you must build a contactor controller, build a
> drum or cam
> controller. They are sturdier than the wiper kind
> and more reliable.
> Disconnect quicker etc. I got a couple good pictures
> out of books and
> diagrams. Unfortunatly, I have to leave a lot to
> imagination because
> nothing is as good as seeing it first hand, or color
> pictures.
Maybe a trip to a museum is in order. One that has
old trolley cars.
>
> 2. The best way to control the speed of a series
> motor is to Vary the
> voltage. This can really only be done in the old
> days by using a
> generator and varying the voltage produced. Needless
> to say I don't
> think that will work :)
No, it will work today. And is used on some
equipment. People just don't like the idea for
battery powered EVs. They think it would be too heavy
or inefficient. I don't agree with that line of
thought.
> Todays controllers
> accomplish the equivalent by
> sending the motor pulses of current.
Your contactor or drum controllers also vary the motor
voltage to control speed.
> 3. The best way, even outlined in the books, for
> controlling the speed
> is to vary the field current. This is how they do it
> in a shunt motor
> but I want to use a series motor. Compound motors
> work good like this
> but I doubt I will get much choice at the forklift
> graveyard.
Speed control by varying the motor field current only
works above base speed (usually about 2000 RPM). So
you have no speed control below that and have to slip
a clutch or something to get going from a stop. Also,
speed control by field control gives you no current
limiting in the armature circuit. So if you load up
the motor (like going up hill), the current (armature
and battery) will go way up, possibly more than your
system can tolerate.
>
> So, This information raises some questions...
>
> How hard would it be to take a series motor, and
> separate the armature
> and field? Like a shunt motor.
It is easy to seperate armature and field, especially
if it is a reversable series motor. Just that it is
very difficult to control the field. It has been
designed to have the same current as the armature, so
you need a control capable of 100's of amps and around
one volt. Usually not practical.
>
> What would varying the speed using the field do to
> the torque
> characteristics?
Torque is the product of flux (field) and current
(armature). Speed is proportional to voltage
(armature) divided by flux. So when you reduce the
flux (field) to increase the speed, you also reduce
the torque per amp. So, net is a speed increase with
a current increase at the same load (torque).
Speed control by field control is really only
effective at light loads. At heavier loads, the
increase in current outdoes the speed increase and it
becomes a loser.
There is a maximum value for the flux dependant on the
magnetic circuit in the motor (the steel). This is
called saturation. Speed = volts / flux. You cannot
drive flux to infinity, so you cannot use field
control to take speed down to zero.
>
> There seems to be no way to get around breaking the
> pack up into series
> and parallel strings to get different voltage steps.
Resistors, to some degree. Resistors will provide
current limiting which can be useful on starting. But
resistors will not be very effective at light loads.
So, yes, you need to switch your batteries.
>
>
> Here is my proposal.
> A homemade cam controller. Using maybe 6 steps. The
> first step will be
> 24v straight to the series motor. Then the next step
> will break the
> series motor into a shunt motor with a resistor to
> limit field current.
> This will increase rpm. (Not sure how that will
> affect torque) Then the
> next step will put the motor back in series and put
> the batteries in a
> 48v configuration. Next will be another shunt motor
> step with resistor.
> Then 96v series and 96v shunt with resistor.
> There are a lot of drawbacks to this I can see right
> away. I think this
> would take a ton of wiring. Other than a straight
> rehoestat in series
> with the series motor, or switching to a shunt
> motor, I don't know what
> to do.
> Sorry it's a long post.
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
I think you'll need a series resistor in your first
step to limit current and avoid high torque lurch.
Then the whole thing with "breaking the series motor
into a shunt motor" won't work like I think you
envision. You can get some speed control by field
weakening a series motor. To do this, you need to put
a low ohmic resistor in parallel with the motor field
to divert some current from the field. Sorry I can't
draw a picture for you.
Good luck,
Jeff
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
