EV Digest 6730
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Automatic or Manual?
by "Miller, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ZAP ...didn't mr natural drive an EV?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Automatic or Manual?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Pile of EV loot
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Cog Calcs (was RE: ADC 6.7 redline and how to measure it.)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Any experience(s) with this company can repair Curtis controllers?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Photos of AGNS bike setting new NEDRA record
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Hawker Powersafe 12V105F UPS Batteries on Ebay
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: HARD TIME ON CURTIS WARRANTY CLAIM? (WAS Re: Newest Curtis
controllers OK to buy now for 120V EV? Or, go with Zilla controller?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Photos of AGNS bike setting new NEDRA record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Grade climbing and high speed are the oposite corner conditions of
performance that make gear shifting beneficial for EV's. In my opinion,
retaining the transmission would be a good idea.
Regarding higher battery amps: if you use a chopper (solid state)
controller, it will "multiply" the amps flowing in the motor at low speed
acceleration as needed. With this type of controller, the battery amps will
be nearly the same for any size motor or starting gear ratio and is related
only to the horsepower needed to accelerate the car. (not counting second
order effects like I2R loss, or carrying extra motor weight, etc)
On Thu, 3 May 2007 22:41:22 +0800, Ian Hooper wrote
> Hi all,
>
> So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
> conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
> instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>
> I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
> during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
> a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>
> Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
> do it", perhaps ;)
>
> -Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that a Civic Wagon would be a great car for an EV conversion.
Being your first conversion I'd keep the clutch there will be a lot of
other things to learn you can learn about clutch less and auto and
direct drive on other vehicles. YOU ARE PLANNING ON CONVERTING OTHER
VEHICLES AFTER THE CIVIC ARN"T YOU.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft tunnel? If
you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway you might as well keep
the tranny.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
Hi all,
So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
do it", perhaps ;)
-Ian
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd have to extend the tailshaft, not even an 8"
would fit down the tunnel in this thing.
The main reason I was interested to lose the gearbox/clutch was to
have less things to wear out. Plus, single speed is kind of elegant I
think. But yes, it might be a lot more work & expense..
On 03/05/2007, at 11:39 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft
tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway
you might as well keep the tranny.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
Hi all,
So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
do it", perhaps ;)
-Ian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Roderick
http://www.lib.calpoly.edu/spec_coll/comix/zap0.html
I havn't heard of those comix for along time!
Didn't Mr Natural have a long white beard, drive an EV and run
around naked in the park at the drop of a hat? or was that fat
freddie?
http://lambiek.net/artists/c/crumb.htm
( look half way down the page)
I remember reading about electric cars in those pages somewhere! the
first time I ever heard about it!
I'm sure we could find someone like that on this group and give them
that nick name.lol
Tom
http://lambiek.net/crumb2.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zap_Comix
http://www.zubeworld.com/crumbmuseum/zap4.html
------------<<<>>>--------------
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Speaking of ZAP, Ya know, they used to put out great Comix ;-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with
Advanced
Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
> Well, I know what many people think of Zap, but this may be
interesting to
> some, nonetheless:
Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger
with Voice at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Skip,
Here's my $0.02.
Personally I don't believe in loading a vehicle up with batteries much past
it's gross weight capability. You can beef the brakes and springs, but
unless you drive only on smooth roads, I can just imagine a ball joint or
spindle going, bending control arms, having alignment problems, or eating
wheel bearings and tires. I don't think Honda wasted a lot of weight and
gas milage making this stuff much stronger than necessary for the original
design. Another concern might be whether you can fit any batteries up
front, the hood is so low on Hondas, and if all the batteries are in the
back, weight distribution could be a problem. Given that:
Here's how I size it up. Look at the current weight of the vehicle,
subtract the weight of the current motor and related junk (radiator, exaust,
gas tank), add back the weight of the electric motor and a bit for
controller and stuff, plus the weight of the passengers. Now, subtract that
number from GVWR. That gives you battery carrying capacity before you're
pushing the design limits of the car (if the batteries fit). Divide that by
20 (for reasonably priced batteries) to get a very rough guess as to the
range capability in miles.
Actually, I think it might be promising if all you need is short trips so
you can keep the battery load reasonable. In your case, I would stick with
the manual trans, although personally I'd try to find a lightweight
flywheel.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
Marty> Regarding efficiency, I suspect the most efficient, and
lightest,
Marty> would be a manual without clutch or flywheel, with thin gear
Marty> lube, that is geared so that it is running straight through most
Marty> of the time. Of course everyone who drives the car would have
to
Marty> be able to drive stick without a clutch.
My wife would drive this on occasion. I'm not that good at driving
without
a clutch and am guessing she wouldn't be thrilled with the idea either.
So
if this (or any other manual transmission) car turns out to be the
eventual
conversion platform it will have to have a clutch.
Marty> I'm guessing that a properly done automatic without a flywheel
or
Marty> torque converter won't be too far behind, and will have less
Marty> learning curve, although getting it to work right will take some
Marty> work.
Potential efficiency issues aside, I'm also not keen on making an
automatic
work, based on what I've read here. I'll have my hands full with the
basics.
Marty> Dual motors and no gearbox sounds interesting, but launching
Marty> without gear reduction sounds like it would take a lot of
current
Marty> and be tough on the batteries to me, but I haven't tried it.
Also, probably not a good option. Range will be short enough and cost
will
be high enough without immediately toasting a battery pack.
So, I have this 83 Civic wagon with a 5-speed manual transmission. I
realize that keeping the batteries out of the passenger compartment is a
problem and that it's not a very large car. Still, the wagon has larger
rear brakes (though still drums) than the other Civics of that era. I
think
I can upgrade the front brakes to '85 Accord rotors and later model Civic
calipers (larger pads). If I dump some extra bucks in it and go with AC
the
"free" regen capability will give me even better brakes. I can also
fairly
easily upgrade the spring rate in the rear (it has elliptical springs -
just
add a leaf). Despite its age the body is in good condition, so I don't
think I'll need to do any rust repair (it does need a paint job). Oh, and
my wife likes it. "It's cute!" (She found it on eBay a couple years
ago.)
So, is it a decent candidate or do the negatives outweigh the positives?
Thx,
Skip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John> YOU ARE PLANNING ON CONVERTING OTHER VEHICLES AFTER THE CIVIC
John> ARN"T YOU.
Depends on how successful Tesla is at bringing down the price of EVs. ;-)
Skip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I got some more info on the automatic transmission. Theere is a
switch on the governor for detecting when the RPM is too low for the
built in pump. I can use that to turn on the external pump, which,
supposedly is "lossier than hell".
The guys name is Rich Elgin of Electric Vehicle Design in Monrovia CA,
anyone you know?
-Peter
On 5/1/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Congratulations on your score! If your auxiliary pump is wired correctly
with a pressure switch to shut it off once front pump pressure takes over I
would not be concerned with a loss of efficiency. I am assuming they
eliminated the torque converter and that is the reason for the pump. Please
correct me if I am wrong. I would be very curious to know the person's name
that did the modifications. It just may be someone I know. I do know a few
of the old timers around the country :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:03 PM
Subject: Pile of EV loot
> Today one of my coworker said to me "You won't believe what I have in
> the back of my truck!", we headed out to the parking lot and I found
> myself staring slack yawed at a whole pile of prime EV parts.
>
> Apparently a friend of his dumped it on him, his friend was moving
> shop and wanted him to sell it.
>
> After the drooling had diminished I made him an offer that I
> considered only mildly insulting but still way below the value of the
> parts. I'm now the owner of the following:
>
> Two nine inch Advanced DC motors and one adapter plate. One of the
> motors seems to have been chromed at some point and is very shiny.
> They look almost new and supposedly have very few miles on them, the
> brushes are in good shape and I cant see any wear on the commutator.
> One of the motors has motor mounts welded to the housing, they're
> supposed to fit some truck, I forget which.
>
> Mounted to the chrome motor was a Datsun automatic transmission that
> has been modified for EV operation. The tranny has connections for an
> external hydraulic pump and the shift points have been changed to
> better match the electric motor. It was explained to me that it
> operates opposite to a regular automatic, it will normally run the
> motor at high RPM and shift up when more torque is needed.
>
> I'm still undecided whether to use it in the Fiat or not. It looks
> like the Datsun tranny is the same size and shape as the Fiat one so I
> should be able to use the adapter plate either way.
>
> The advantage of an automatic is that anyone will be able to get in
> the car, press the pedal and go. I don't have to explain how to handle
> clutchless shifting or anything, this is especially good for my wife
> who has never driven a stick. The Datsun tranny is also a lot more
> robust than the fiat tranny.
>
> The disadvantage is the efficiency hit caused by the hydraulic pump
> (which, by the way, was included).
>
> I also got a refurbished Curtis 1231 controller that has once belonged
> to Ed Begley jr. The box had never been opened before.
>
> Last but not least, I got a vacuum pump for the brakes.
>
>
>
> My question to the list is regarding the tranny. It was modified by a
> guy who used to be a transmission mechanic and who was involved in
> many EV conversions so I have no doubt that it works. I'm more
> concerned with the efficiency hit of the hydraulic pump, does anyone
> have any idea how much power is needed to sustain the pressure?
>
> Any other thoughts and inputs on the topic would be nice.
>
>
> I'll be selling one of the motors and possibly the tranny, pictures
> can be found on my website.
>
> -Peter
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.4/768 - Release Date: 4/19/2007
> 5:32 AM
>
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apologies in advance as I take serious liberties with Damon and Roger's
posts to avoid reposting in their entirety.
|Roger's calcs with major snippages:
|>how much power is needed to maintain a given speed (e.g. 60mph or
75mph).
|>Playing with Uve's calculator (1400lb after conversion, 0.25Cd, 12ft^2
A,
|>0.95 drive efficiency, 0.0015 rolling resistance and 0.003
brake/steering
|>drag, and 185/75R14 tires for 839.8rev/mi), yields an estimate of
5.7HP @
|>60mph, [EMAIL PROTECTED], and [EMAIL PROTECTED] (still air, no incline).
|>With a K91 6.7" the EV Parts curve suggests that on 75V it can only
sustain
|>11+HP required for 70mph+ speeds (best case) for 5-15min. At 96V it
can
|>do 12hp+ for up to 30min before overheating.
Damon's comments:
> These numbers look like they are in the ballpark when comparing them
> to what a slightly lighter flavor motor has done on my motorcycle.
> With a nice stiff 48 volt pack of STM5 100's and a total weight of
> 750-800 lbs including rider I was able to cruise on the freeway at
> ~60 mph for 11 miles straight without any heating issues whatsoever.
Excellent -- love it when experience meshes with calculated models.
Thanks for the report, Damon!
> The K91 motor is about 10lbs heavier and about 1.5 inches longer then
> the (Tropica) motor I use on my motorcycle. So it should be able to
> sustain a little more power.
Good -- I'm feeling better and better about my motor choice.
> If you haven't been on the list that long, you might want to hook up
> with Jerry Dycus for some easy to implement aero tips.
I have several good saved posts from him already, and will ask for
commentary a bit later after I have a frame and start sketching the tub
in better detail -- I'm accumulating quite the folder of reference
material. The fiberglass tub I envision should be fairly sleek, and I'm
definitely aware how big a deal that is with speeds over 40mph.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marty> Here's how I size it up. Look at the current weight of the
Marty> vehicle, subtract the weight of the current motor and related
Marty> junk (radiator, exaust, gas tank), add back the weight of the
Marty> electric motor and a bit for controller and stuff, plus the
Marty> weight of the passengers. Now, subtract that number from GVWR.
Marty> That gives you battery carrying capacity before you're pushing
Marty> the design limits of the car (if the batteries fit). Divide that
Marty> by 20 (for reasonably priced batteries) to get a very rough guess
Marty> as to the range capability in miles.
Yeah, I've yet to do that calculation. How much should I figure a motor,
controller, charger and related bits will weigh? What is "that" which I am
supposed to divide by 20? Total battery weight?
Marty> Actually, I think it might be promising if all you need is short
Marty> trips so you can keep the battery load reasonable. In your case,
Marty> I would stick with the manual trans, although personally I'd try
Marty> to find a lightweight flywheel.
Around town is fine. Ellen works about two miles from home and I take the
train. We have two other cars we can use for longer trips (though my 914/6
is kinda special - and no, it's not going to be converted to EV status!).
Skip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/3/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-snip-
Around town is fine. Ellen works about two miles from home and I take the
train. We have two other cars we can use for longer trips (though my 914/6
is kinda special - and no, it's not going to be converted to EV status!).
Sure it is, you just don't know it yet ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point regarding battery amps. But for a given acceleration rate,
you're going to need a higher current controller ($$) and possibly a larger
motor ($$ and lbs) to turn higher motor current at lower motor volts
(typical of low impedance, low RPM operation) into forward motion, no? If
you're really patient, and your acceleration expectations are low, it might
not be too much of an issue. With twin motors and series parallel
switching, you'd get around some of the impedance/motor current issues, but
I think you're still trading added motor expense for the trans you probably
already had. Am I missing something?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
Grade climbing and high speed are the oposite corner conditions of
performance that make gear shifting beneficial for EV's. In my opinion,
retaining the transmission would be a good idea.
Regarding higher battery amps: if you use a chopper (solid state)
controller, it will "multiply" the amps flowing in the motor at low speed
acceleration as needed. With this type of controller, the battery amps
will
be nearly the same for any size motor or starting gear ratio and is
related
only to the horsepower needed to accelerate the car. (not counting second
order effects like I2R loss, or carrying extra motor weight, etc)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Skip,
Yeah, "that" is the max battery weight you should be able to carry.
Since this is only a SWAG at basic feasability, I'd figure 100 lbs for an 8"
motor and controller. I don't know what a charger weighs, maybe 20?
Somebody please chime in here. I'd guess you'd lose a couple hundred pounds
more or less in the conversion without the batteries, since Honda motors
don't weigh much to begin with. Wonderful little thingies if you like gas
motors.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
Marty> Here's how I size it up. Look at the current weight of the
Marty> vehicle, subtract the weight of the current motor and related
Marty> junk (radiator, exaust, gas tank), add back the weight of the
Marty> electric motor and a bit for controller and stuff, plus the
Marty> weight of the passengers. Now, subtract that number from GVWR.
Marty> That gives you battery carrying capacity before you're pushing
Marty> the design limits of the car (if the batteries fit). Divide
that
Marty> by 20 (for reasonably priced batteries) to get a very rough
guess
Marty> as to the range capability in miles.
Yeah, I've yet to do that calculation. How much should I figure a motor,
controller, charger and related bits will weigh? What is "that" which I
am
supposed to divide by 20? Total battery weight?
Marty> Actually, I think it might be promising if all you need is short
Marty> trips so you can keep the battery load reasonable. In your
case,
Marty> I would stick with the manual trans, although personally I'd try
Marty> to find a lightweight flywheel.
Around town is fine. Ellen works about two miles from home and I take the
train. We have two other cars we can use for longer trips (though my
914/6
is kinda special - and no, it's not going to be converted to EV status!).
Skip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Logisystems in TX has a good record. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert mat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: Any experience(s) with this company can repair Curtis controllers?
> http://www.fsip.biz/
>
> EV America sez they repair failed Curtis controller
> that blew up. Any reviews of this company?
>
>
>
> Photo link: Using the world's first licensed
> Revived Battery electric pickup truck
> for everyday errandshttp://my-ev-diary.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations Shawn and good luck on your next record attempt!!
Those are some really great times!!
Photos of the record breaking run and the bike are up on the NEDRA site.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On May 3, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: May 3, 2007 7:20:46 AM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
On Wednesday evening the Lawless Industries AGNS (All Go No Show)
motorcycle set a new NEDRA 72 volt record for the 1/8th mile of
8.86 seconds @ 77.11 MPH on good old fashion, 3 year old Hawker
AGM's. This time was backed up with an 8.83 minutes later.
Brand new NEDRA member Denis Stanislaw was on board for the ride
complete with Carhart overalls and work boots
Weather was not conducive to record setting with a stiff head wind
and 54 degree temp but the little bike didn't seem to mind on it's
way to a 14.1 @ 87 mph 1/4 mile. Comparing the AGM to LI pack is
like comparing peas and carrots. Where the V28's were just starting
to run at the 1/8th mile, the Hawkers are running out of steam. But
man that lead acid rush on the line is still impressive. Many high
school age racers were there for grudge night and by our third run
almost all got off their bikes and out of their cars to watch.
They didn't even seem to notice the nitrous Kawasaki ZX-11 that ran
7's at 170's the run before us. Thank you Charles for the tuning
tips on the Perm motors!
Looking for 100 mph at 96 volts.....
______________________________________________________________________
__
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IIRC Enersys (Hawker) PowerSafe is a "standby" battery.
While it has a 15 yr Design Life in STANDBY use, and a phenomenal AH
capacity for the price, it is rated for only a very small number of
discharge cycles. I think deep discharges are in the tens, more are of
course possible if using shallower discharges but still not many at all
for a VRLA lead-acid.
I got that info from talking to the mfg and looking deep into the spec
sheets. I wish they would make it clearer on the product summary.
There was a guy on eBay awhile back who was selling off a huge number of
PowerSafe that "were used for a solar installation", which got me doing
research on the product line- I almost bought some of his. Apparently
they bought them without realizing they were inappropriate for repeated
cycles of solar duty and either found out from later research or found
out when they crapped out on them one by one.
Danny
Martin Winlow wrote:
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--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
And those people who haven't used and researched Contactor Controllers
in the past, STILL don't have any good way of finding out what has
been done with them. WHERE can we find out about those 50 (or 100)
year old designs?
Most vehicles with contactor controllers had service manuals, which
provided the circuit, parts lists, theory of operation, etc. Since they
are older, it takes a bit of effort to do the historical research to ind
them. Nobody has bothered to do all the work and put them on the web for
free. John, you had a contactor controller in your ComutaVan with this
information. Did you put it on the web?
Building a contactor controller is electrical, rather than electronic.
It's more like wiring a house -- each one is done individually, on the
spot, with the parts available and in the room provided. The electrician
learns the principles, and adapts them to the circumstances.
Since there seems to be some effort in this area, maybe it's time we
tried to gather all the contactor controller documentation we have, put
it online somewhere. I have perhaps a half dozen sets of documentation,
but no way to scan them or get them online. It will also take a fair bit
of writing so a beginner can even understand them -- they won't know how
to read a schematic or wiring diagram, won't know how to judge current
or voltage ratings for the parts they find, and won't know anything
about good construction practices for high-power wiring.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
An alternator puts out AC right?
Right.
The regulator converts it to DC with those magical zeners and genies
and whatnot.
Not quite. Diodes rectify the AC into DC. They are mounted inside the
alternator.
The regulator is a simple electrical or electronic circuit that adjusts
the field current (current flowing in the rotating part) to control the
output voltage. If you just tie the field straight to the rectified
output, you get 12vdc at 600 engine rpm (idle), and 120vdc at 6000
engine rpm (full speed).
The simplest regulator is just a few relays. Their coils sense the
alternators's output voltage; as it goes up, the relays pull in and
switch resistors in series with the field to bring it back down.
What's the unregulated output of the alternator?
The unregulated voltage is about VoltsDC = 0.1 x RPM x FieldCurrent.
What about those whomping 230 amp alternators? Whats their unregulated
output?
About the same. That constant (0.1) gets smaller as the ampere rating
gets bigger; it takes more field current to get a given voltage.
Would it be possible to rectify that, smooth it with a couple of caps,
and recharge a portion of a battery pack?
Yes, provided you have a high enough RPM. The maximum field current is
limited by the wire size of the rotor windings. So, you're limited to
about 2 amps maximum or it will burn up. That's enough to (barely) get
12v at idle, but 120v at high RPM.
I know, this would result in an uneven pack....
Not if you used it to charge *all* the batteries.
Suppose you could have this "cheap regen" flip around to charge
different portions of the pack at different times, using some
rube-goldberg relay-setup?
Sounds like my Battery Balancer :-)
Or, would it be better to step up the AC to 150 (or whatever you are
using) - *then* convert it to DC, and have it charge the whole pack?
Since the alternator outputs AC (if you connect wires ahead of the
diodes), you could use a transformer to step its voltage up to anything
you like. Since it makes 3-phase AC, it actually takes 3 transformers.
Then put the rectifies *after* the transformer.
But of course, stepping the voltage up will step the current down. If
the alternator produces 12vac at 60amps at idle, the transformer could
make 120vac at 6amps. You also better have a regulator in there, or it
will try to make 1200vac at high RPM!
A key point here is that an alternator (or any electric motor or
generator for that matter) delivers maximum power at maximum speed.
Double the speed, and you've doubled the horsepower. 10 times the speed,
10 times the horsepower. There's no limit except a) the maximum speed
before it is destroyed from centrifugal force, b) the maximum voltage
where the insulation breaks down (since you have to apply more voltage
to get more speed).
I remember I had an old 74 Chevy impala (more steel than any 3 cars
these days).
The alternator belt was loose (I later tightened it) - it would charge
the battery fine, if it wasn't too low.
If the battery was really low, the belt would squeal, as the alternator
tried to charge the battery (the lower the "pack" at that time, the
harder the alternator would work to bring it back up).
Right! The regulator was trying to maintain battery voltage. When
battery voltage was low, it demanded "maximum power" from the
alternator. The alternator thus put the heaviest load on the belt. It
slipped, and squealed.
This has to be a function of the regulator...right? That behavior could
be changed by altering the regulator - change the regulator so that the
alternator only gave out so many amps no matter what, rather than trying
to vary/regulate its charge each time...
Yes; newer cars use more complicated regulators for just this purpose.
On an old car, if you cranked a long time and ran the battery down, when
it did start, the regulator demanded *maximum power* from the
alternator. Power = torque x speed, so low speed demands high torque. So
the belt was most likely to squeal at idle.
Modern regulators can deliberately reduce the alternator output, so the
belt won't squeal. But of course, you get less charging current, too.
There's no way that an alternator could recharge the pack (unless you're
going 17 miles downhill....corvette conversion) - so overcharging
shouldn't be an issue...
Yes; you'd have to start out your drive on top of a big hill, with a
fully charged pack. Possible, but rare.
A more realistic problem is that you start with a fully charged pack, so
you can't charge it at high current. Even a short but steep hill (like
going down your driveway) could produce a very high peak regen current.
The battery voltage would shoot way up, which could damage something.
So, you still need to limit regen when you first start driving, even if
you don't live on a mountain.
Couldn't we use an alternator (or 2), stepped up, to provide a little
juice back to the pack during braking? (have this whole thing turned on
by a brake-pedal switch).
Sure; that's what this is all about.
Have a gas-pedal switch turn on 1 alternator when it is released, and
the brake pedal turn on another, if its depressed a little....
I know this is Rube-Goldberg...but I thought I'd ask anyway.
It isn't much different that what most cars do anyway. Many automotive
systems are extremely crude, when you get right down to what they are doing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Joe Batt wrote:
Has anyone seen a software controlled contactor controller?
I think a couple hobbyists have built them. But it's a bit like putting
a computer in a toaster -- there's not a lot of need for it.
If it was completely software controlled, then you could handle the
complexity of using different sets of batteries over time even for
the same voltages. (Even respond to unequal batteries.)
That's certainly possible. The challenge is that the switching to do the
necessary rearrangements is the expensive part. So, most designs seek to
minimize the switching. This means you don't have enough options left to
do much individual management.
I think the downside is reality. Essentially, you'd be making a high
power crossbar switch to dynamically reconfigure the battery pack. It
would end up being more expensive, complex, and fragile than a FET based
controller anyway.
Yes, I think that's the likely result. However, it may still be worth
investigating. For example, low-voltage contactors are very cheap,
because they are mass produced by the millions. There may be ways to use
lots of them instead of a few expensive high-voltage contactors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
I've opened a number of Curtis controllers for repair, and have
noticed evidence of water inside many of them...
Since you have seen the inside of the Curtis controllers, what is the
safest direction(s) to mount them? What should be up and what shouldn't
be down? In my buggy I have a 1221B mounted with the heat sink base up
(top down?). Just looking at the construction from the outside it looked
like the best idea.
I'm not sure that any orientation is good if you get water inside, but
heatsink down appears to be the worst. First, the water would bridge the
sheet that insulates the internal heat spreader from the bottom of the
case. Second, the lower edge of the control board sits in a groove in
this heat spreader, and water would short PCB traces to the heat
spreader. This is what appeared to kill Bob Rice's controller.
Heatsink up sounds like a reasonable choice. But water could still lay
on the large horizontal power board at the top of the case.
Mounting it either end up might let water fall harmlessly to the ends;
but it also puts the broken seals on top where splash or condensation
could run right in.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Chip,
I should point out that Denis designed and built the AGNS chassis here
in our shop in the 3 days leading up to the BBB.
It seemed only fitting that he ride for the record.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Photos of AGNS bike setting new NEDRA record
Congratulations Shawn and good luck on your next record attempt!! Those
are some really great times!!
Photos of the record breaking run and the bike are up on the NEDRA
site.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On May 3, 2007, at 11:06 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: May 3, 2007 7:20:46 AM EDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
On Wednesday evening the Lawless Industries AGNS (All Go No Show) >
motorcycle set a new NEDRA 72 volt record for the 1/8th mile of > 8.86
seconds @ 77.11 MPH on good old fashion, 3 year old Hawker > AGM's.
This time was backed up with an 8.83 minutes later.
Brand new NEDRA member Denis Stanislaw was on board for the ride >
complete with Carhart overalls and work boots
Weather was not conducive to record setting with a stiff head wind >
and 54 degree temp but the little bike didn't seem to mind on it's >
way to a 14.1 @ 87 mph 1/4 mile. Comparing the AGM to LI pack is > like
comparing peas and carrots. Where the V28's were just starting > to run
at the 1/8th mile, the Hawkers are running out of steam. But > man that
lead acid rush on the line is still impressive. Many high > school age
racers were there for grudge night and by our third run > almost all
got off their bikes and out of their cars to watch. > They didn't even
seem to notice the nitrous Kawasaki ZX-11 that ran > 7's at 170's the
run before us. Thank you Charles for the tuning > tips on the Perm
motors!
Looking for 100 mph at 96 volts.....
______________________________________________________________________>
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Where are you thinking of putting the batteries for the Miata and how
many?
Space is a problem with the car.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:27 am, George Swartz wrote:
Grade climbing and high speed are the oposite corner conditions of
performance that make gear shifting beneficial for EV's. In my
opinion,
retaining the transmission would be a good idea.
Regarding higher battery amps: if you use a chopper (solid state)
controller, it will "multiply" the amps flowing in the motor at low
speed
acceleration as needed. With this type of controller, the battery amps
will
be nearly the same for any size motor or starting gear ratio and is
related
only to the horsepower needed to accelerate the car. (not counting
second
order effects like I2R loss, or carrying extra motor weight, etc)
On Thu, 3 May 2007 22:41:22 +0800, Ian Hooper wrote
Hi all,
So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
do it", perhaps ;)
-Ian
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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--- Begin Message ---
Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on each
rear wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for
needed boost.
You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering is
implied.).
For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require more
than one wheel.
Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power
dispite the traction ads and gimmicks.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft
tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway you
might as well keep the tranny.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
Hi all,
So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
do it", perhaps ;)
-Ian
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