--- Begin Message ---
Talking with Electro Automotive about a transmission adapter.
They have some patterns for older Datsun Trucks. ~ 1970
Does anyone have a clue if my 1965 may match some of the newer
Engines/Transmissions.
Thanks;
Dennis
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C78DBA.77C58946"
Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:37:21 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Thread-Topic: 1965 Datsun Truck
Thread-Index: AceNunfm3RAJZj2nSsav7aPAGscY8g==
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: "John Wayland--
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 14:05:29 -0600
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: White Zombie motor?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There are scaling issues involved. The surface to volume ratio of
a small motor is much larger than that of a large motor so the
cooling loads do not scale very favorably for more normal sized motors.
It looks like they are using "high-temperature" superconductors if
they are at -246 C (27 Kelvin). This is the boiling point of liquid
neon. If you thought liquid helium was expensive, wait until the
Master Card bill comes in from your order of liquid neon. LHe is
around $10 a liter. LNe is well over $200 per liter before you ship
it. (Nice cryogen, however.) What is interesting about LNe is that
they won't quote you a price until the day they ship it. There is a
"spot market" on the price, kind of like gold or platinum, that changes daily.
You can easily get field strengths of over 8 Tesla with
superconducting magnets. Beyond that, it becomes difficult
mechanically to hold them together, especially on a large scale. You
can get a copper electro-magnet to do about a Tesla if you have a
lake or a river nearby to keep it cool.
The problem with using superconductors in motors are the AC magnetic
field losses. Superconductors have zero loss to the flow of DC
currents, but are quite lossy when subjected to moving magnetic
fields. When you do the wattage calculations, it doesn't seem so bad.
Then you realize that you must remove this wattage at 27 Kelvin and
reject it at room temperature. This hammers you.
Bill Dube'
At 06:33 AM 5/3/2007, you wrote:
>They likely cool it with Helium.
>
>http://www.janis.com/p-ccrs.html
>
>The good thing is that (being superconducting) once it's down to
>operating temp it's not likely to warm back up during operation so you
>don't need a lot of power to maintain the low temp. WZ could do it by
>carrying a dewer of liquid Helium although that gets rather expensive
>after a while. } ; ] Of course, if it ever gets above ~27K (that's
>the same as -246C) the magnets wil instantly quench and you'd be stuck
>until you could get it back down to operating temp.
>
>Trot, the lab-bound, fox...
>
>On 5/3/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>What would they use to cool that consistently? It said it had to be
>>cooled to minus 246. I would think that in order to keep that cool a
>>huge stash of cooling gas be required?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>
>>What do you think Jim H?
>>http://www.siemens.com/index.jsp?sdc_p=d1184570i1184794lmn1182567o144479
>>6pFEcfs2t4u20z2&sdc_sid=10822567630&
>>"The propulsion unit also produces 30 times more torque (over 300
>>kilonewtonmeters) than a conventional generator. "
>>
>>Rod
>>
>
>
>--
>| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
>| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
>| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
If you went truly direct you'd be running only about 1000 rpm at freeway speed,
an inefficient region for motor operation. To do it right you'd need a custom
large diameter motor, or to do gearing (like Gone Postal).
Running one motor on one wheel might be more efficient electrically, but it
would push the car asymmetrically. If you drove only one wheel you'd have to
turn the steering wheel a bit to compensate, and you'd have more rolling
resistance.
----- Original Message ----
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 11:20:04 AM
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on each
rear wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for
needed boost.
You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering is
implied.).
For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require more
than one wheel.
Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power
dispite the traction ads and gimmicks.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
> The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft
> tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway you
> might as well keep the tranny.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
> Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
> conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
> instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>
> I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
> during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
> a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>
> Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
> do it", perhaps ;)
>
> -Ian
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
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__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADC
motors)
From: Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 13:14:20 -0700
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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On Wed, 2007-05-02 at 01:44 -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
> Richard Acuti wrote:
> > First, thanks for explaining to me how the Zilla produces different
> > voltages/amps at the motor and the battery. I understand transformers, I
> > just didn't know that these controllers did that. I thought they were
> > simply chopper controllers (on/off) with superior heat dissapation.
> > Obviously they are much more complex than that. Just to make sure I
> > understand: Curtis controllers don't have this buck function? They just
> > switch on and off rapidly to power the motor?
>
> *All* PWM controllers do this; the Zilla, Curtis, Auburn, DCP, Zapi, and
> even all the old SCR controllers (GE, Sevcon, etc.). It's a design trick
> learned at least 50 years ago, and used on every controller designed by
> anyone who has done any research at all into motor controllers.
And so do you (Lee) happen to know what the typical boost is--1.5x? I
imagine it's different for the different makes of controllers; I'm
wondering if I could get (say) 144v out of a 120v pack. (I checked the
CafeElectric site but didn't see a spec for this)
--Steve
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Subject: RE: Direct drive - thoughts?
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:16:02 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
By eliminating the rear differential you are missing out on some gear
reduction. By taking out the transmission you are losing more gear
reduction. I would think that you would need a chain or belt drive gear
reduction if you wanted to power one wheel with a motor.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:20 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on each
rear wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for
needed boost.
You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering is
implied.).
For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require more
than one wheel.
Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power
dispite the traction ads and gimmicks.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
> The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft
> tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway you
> might as well keep the tranny.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
> Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
> conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
> instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>
> I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
> during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
> a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>
> Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
> do it", perhaps ;)
>
> -Ian
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 16:21:54 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
GW - ( by the way, what's your name?)
With one wheel drive you would get torque steer - even under the best
traction conditions. This is because you would have side loads on both
front tires whenever you were applying traction with a single wheel. Tires
only roll straight if there is no side load. If there is any side load,
they travel at their "slip angle". Think about pushing a shopping cart from
one side only. Because of the slip angle, a car's tires will act ( to a much
smaller degree) like casters.
As far as a single driven motor providing an "economy" mode, that might only
hold true if you mechanically disconnected the undriven motor from its
axle. If the undriven motor is spinning anyway, it is absorbing power (
primarily brush drag and internal fan losses) . And, because of that, I
believe that you would be just as well off (or better - in terms of
efficiency) by powering both motors at all times .
Powering both motors also means you can use series/parallel switching. This
would provide more performance from your controller at low speeds.
Also, if your unpowered motor is still spinning (and adding drag to the
undriven side of the car) the torque steer would be even worse.
Phil
>From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:20:04 -0700
>
>Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on each rear
>wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
>If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for needed
>boost.
>
>You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering is
>implied.).
>
>For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
>Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require more than
>one wheel.
>
>Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power dispite
>the traction ads and gimmicks.
>
>
>On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
>>The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft
>>tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway you
>>might as well keep the tranny.
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
>>Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
>>
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
>>conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
>>instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>>
>>I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
>>during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
>>a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>>
>>Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
>>do it", perhaps ;)
>>
>>-Ian
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
>the melting poles.
>
>www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:22:04 -0400
From: Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: [EV] Re: [EV] All the things I'm learning (about controllers &
6.7" ADC motors)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> >
> >Its just the nature of how electricity works that, discounting losses,
> >V*I is always constant. So if PWM is chopping voltage, current gets
> >multiplied.
>
> It's not *quite* that simple. A key point is that the output must be
> inductive. In the general-purpose case, there is a physical inductor. In
> motor controllers, they usually "cheat" and use the motor's inductance.
> The inductance is necessary to smooth the current; without it, you would
> get the huge on/off current pulses that you would otherwise expect.
>
> Another key point is that the input must be capacitive. In the general
> purpose case, there are physical capacitors on the input. In EV
> controllers, they sometimes "cheat" and use the battery's capacitance.
Thanks for the clarification. One never stops learning :)
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://ev.nn.cl |
| Yo.
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Subject: RE: Direct drive - thoughts?
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:25:39 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Regarding higher battery amps: if you use a chopper (solid state)
controller,
> it will "multiply" the amps flowing in the motor at low speed
acceleration as
> needed.
Is that beyond the factor of two, which a two-string split pack might
easily provide?
Randii (comparing apples and tangelos)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 03:14:31 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
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Marty Hewes wrote:
> Regarding efficiency, I suspect the most efficient, and lightest
> would be a manual...
The most efficient setup is *no* transmission. However, most cars being
converted come with one, so most people use it.
> Dual motors and no gearbox sounds interesting, but launching without
> gear reduction sounds like it would take a lot of current and be tough
> on the batteries to me, but I haven't tried it.
The batteries don't care, because the controller steps the voltage down
(and the current up) as needed.
But if you go transmissionless, the motor and controller need to be
bigger, to supply the higher motor currents needed. When you're building
from scratch, or have to *buy* a transmission, it's cheaper to leave out
the transmission and pay a little more for a bigger motor and
controller. That's why most scratch-built EVs don't have transmissions.
If you've already got the transmission that came with the car, it is
essentially "free", so using it lets you get by with a smaller (i.e.
cheaper) motor and controller. That's why most EV conversions have
transmissions.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:43:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Direct drive - thoughts?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
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You need some gearing, do the math and you'll see how slow a wheel is turning
at 20mph, I recall 1500 rpm at 60mph, of course depends on tire size.
I have a CVT in my aspire that currently is setup to drive a half-shaft
directly, th3 CVT has a roughly 4:1 to 1:1 spread. I still haven't tested it
on the road yet, but I think it will need another 2:1 gear behind it, so it
goes 8:1 to 2:1 spread, or if I use the differential with 3.4:1, that gives a
spread of 13:1 to 3.4:1, which is probably just right.
Jack Murray
Alan Brinkman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By eliminating the rear differential
you are missing out on some gear
reduction. By taking out the transmission you are losing more gear
reduction. I would think that you would need a chain or belt drive gear
reduction if you wanted to power one wheel with a motor.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:20 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on each
rear wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for
needed boost.
You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering is
implied.).
For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require more
than one wheel.
Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power
dispite the traction ads and gimmicks.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
> The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the driveshaft
> tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor compartment anyway you
> might as well keep the tranny.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ian Hooper
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
> Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
> conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
> instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>
> I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
> during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
> a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>
> Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
> do it", perhaps ;)
>
> -Ian
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:45:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Rectactor Controller Suggestions
To: EV List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
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After following the latest contactor controller thread with great interest I am
seriously
considering building my own. I have come up with the following based on the
rectactor schematics
referred to in the previous links and my particular needs. I have 18 6V flooded
lead acid
batteries (Trojan TE-35). I was thinking of dividing them up into 18V _modules_
and connecting
them this way: (View with fixed font, Sorry my diodes don't look better. I did
the best I could ;)
S1 S3 S5 S7 S9
/ / / / /
-----/ --------/ --------/ --------/ --------/ ------------------- M+
| / | / | / | / | / |
| D1 / | D2 / | D3 / | D4 / | D5 / |
--- / --- / --- / --- / --- / ---
- \/ - \/ - \/ - \/ - \/ -
--- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- R1
- / - / - / - / - / - --/\/\/--|
| / | / | / | / | / | | |
|/ / |/ / |/ / |/ / |/ / | | / |
----/ --------/ --------/ --------/ --------/ -----------/ ------- M-
S2 S4 S6 S8 S10 S11
Step S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7 S8 S9 S10
S11
--------- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
---
1 (18V) ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON
OFF
2 " ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON
ON
3 (36V) ON ON ON ON OFF OFF ON ON ON ON
OFF
4 " ON ON ON ON OFF OFF ON ON ON ON
ON
5 (54V) ON ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF OFF ON ON
OFF
6 " ON ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF OFF ON ON
ON
7 (108V) OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF
OFF
8 " OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF
ON
I was hoping that I could get a bit more specific advice in regards to which
components would be
appropriate for this arrangement. I was thinking of the LEV200. (Or any other
advice for that
matter) I would like to be good for about 400 amps max for under 10 second
bursts and the rest of
the time under 200 amps and more than likely around 100 amps continuous. I was
thinking that after
the 8th step I would have field weakening through some variable resistor. Or
should I have the
field weakening on every step?
In examining the chart with the steps I noticed that all of the contactors are
actuated in pairs.
Is there a particlar type that would have 2 sets of contacts actuated at the
same time? Is the
current actually increasing towards the right? Could you use less expensive
lower rated contactors
for the lower numbered ones?
And another thing, I am confused as to how Ohm's law applies to the contactors
in this
arrangement. How much voltage is across the contacts in the different
series/parallel
configurations? Do you look at how much voltage is there when they are open? I
would assume so as
there is very little voltage drop when they are closed.
And what value and type of resistor and diodes should be used?
Finally, if I wanted regen (I do have a SepEx motor), could I only get it at
18V? Could I hurt the
motor by just adjusting the field current? If I needed to regen at a higher
voltage is there a way
to change the configuration and still use more or less the same number of
components? Or should I
just bypass the whole thing and connect the full battery to the armature and
control the regen
with the field?
I appreciate any comments,
Chet Fields
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 16:50:48 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Lee, you sound like just the person we need...
The alternators use standard diodes to generate DC from AC..
then they use Zener diodes (that break-down at varying voltages, so that
the alternator only produces a certain max voltage).
Where do we get these 144 volt (or whatever) zeners? (they break down at
about 14 volts, so that they prevent the thing from generating too much
volts, blowing things up).
So whats a failsafe on these zeners? What happens when they get old, and
don't break down anymore, allowing 6000 rpm to create 1200 volts dc,
blowing up a standard automobile's electrical system?
So what we're needing then, is Brand X alternator, with Mod (LeeHart)
electrical adaptor thingie, to provide Y voltage for recharging a battery
pack of Z volts.
Step 1) buy 1 or 2 Brand X heavy-duty alternator(s)
Step 2) remove xyz plate, remove abc regulator, and replace it with these
wires that go to a new external step-up-regulator box of some kind.
Step 3) hook up belts, using this here diagram.
Step 4) hook up output leads to battery pack.
Step 5) enjoy your brandy-new regen braking system for your DC system.
So -
We've established that alternators can create DC.
Transformers can step up the AC ahead of time, which can be rectified to
whatever DC we need.
You mentioned that newer regulators can alter their output, otherwise we'd
have "regen braking that varied depending on how much you've driven" -
which probably wouldn't be cool.
Beginning of day, no regen (pack isn't low, right?)
End of day, you let off the gas (juice?), and get massive regen (the
squealing belts, the massive current to battery pack, and overheating
alternator on some downhill road).
Who has the skill to build and sell the above mentioned Mod that will
produce (somewhat) steady voltage, varying current, without
too-much-charge to the batteries?
Alternators already exist (thus pulleys, bearings, housings, etc are
already designed, and able to operate in a nasty hot-ICE environment, so
EV should be less of a strain on it).
All we need is the Mod box (for a particular voltage battery pack).
Who sells/makes these things?
Do you think that Zivan or ByScan could make one of these things?
I'm sure the hardest part is regulating the thing based on the varying
alternator RPM - but they do it for 12 (14) volts (with zeners)...
How come Zivan, ByScan, or someone else doesn't have an instruction
booklet that goes much like steps 1-5 above, where the "mod box" is the
standard plug-in charger?
All you'd have to add is a couple of alternators.... (and of course, the
rest of the EV, but I'm assuming that....)
Thanks!
Ed Cooley
Charlotte, NC
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
05/02/2007 22:10
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
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Subject
Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> An alternator puts out AC right?
Right.
> The regulator converts it to DC with those magical zeners and genies
> and whatnot.
Not quite. Diodes rectify the AC into DC. They are mounted inside the
alternator.
The regulator is a simple electrical or electronic circuit that adjusts
the field current (current flowing in the rotating part) to control the
output voltage. If you just tie the field straight to the rectified
output, you get 12vdc at 600 engine rpm (idle), and 120vdc at 6000
engine rpm (full speed).
The simplest regulator is just a few relays. Their coils sense the
alternators's output voltage; as it goes up, the relays pull in and
switch resistors in series with the field to bring it back down.
> What's the unregulated output of the alternator?
The unregulated voltage is about VoltsDC = 0.1 x RPM x FieldCurrent.
> What about those whomping 230 amp alternators? Whats their unregulated
> output?
About the same. That constant (0.1) gets smaller as the ampere rating
gets bigger; it takes more field current to get a given voltage.
> Would it be possible to rectify that, smooth it with a couple of caps,
> and recharge a portion of a battery pack?
Yes, provided you have a high enough RPM. The maximum field current is
limited by the wire size of the rotor windings. So, you're limited to
about 2 amps maximum or it will burn up. That's enough to (barely) get
12v at idle, but 120v at high RPM.
> I know, this would result in an uneven pack....
Not if you used it to charge *all* the batteries.
> Suppose you could have this "cheap regen" flip around to charge
> different portions of the pack at different times, using some
> rube-goldberg relay-setup?
Sounds like my Battery Balancer :-)
> Or, would it be better to step up the AC to 150 (or whatever you are
> using) - *then* convert it to DC, and have it charge the whole pack?
Since the alternator outputs AC (if you connect wires ahead of the
diodes), you could use a transformer to step its voltage up to anything
you like. Since it makes 3-phase AC, it actually takes 3 transformers.
Then put the rectifies *after* the transformer.
But of course, stepping the voltage up will step the current down. If
the alternator produces 12vac at 60amps at idle, the transformer could
make 120vac at 6amps. You also better have a regulator in there, or it
will try to make 1200vac at high RPM!
A key point here is that an alternator (or any electric motor or
generator for that matter) delivers maximum power at maximum speed.
Double the speed, and you've doubled the horsepower. 10 times the speed,
10 times the horsepower. There's no limit except a) the maximum speed
before it is destroyed from centrifugal force, b) the maximum voltage
where the insulation breaks down (since you have to apply more voltage
to get more speed).
> I remember I had an old 74 Chevy impala (more steel than any 3 cars
> these days).
> The alternator belt was loose (I later tightened it) - it would charge
> the battery fine, if it wasn't too low.
> If the battery was really low, the belt would squeal, as the alternator
> tried to charge the battery (the lower the "pack" at that time, the
> harder the alternator would work to bring it back up).
Right! The regulator was trying to maintain battery voltage. When
battery voltage was low, it demanded "maximum power" from the
alternator. The alternator thus put the heaviest load on the belt. It
slipped, and squealed.
> This has to be a function of the regulator...right? That behavior could
> be changed by altering the regulator - change the regulator so that the
> alternator only gave out so many amps no matter what, rather than trying
> to vary/regulate its charge each time...
Yes; newer cars use more complicated regulators for just this purpose.
On an old car, if you cranked a long time and ran the battery down, when
it did start, the regulator demanded *maximum power* from the
alternator. Power = torque x speed, so low speed demands high torque. So
the belt was most likely to squeal at idle.
Modern regulators can deliberately reduce the alternator output, so the
belt won't squeal. But of course, you get less charging current, too.
> There's no way that an alternator could recharge the pack (unless you're
> going 17 miles downhill....corvette conversion) - so overcharging
> shouldn't be an issue...
Yes; you'd have to start out your drive on top of a big hill, with a
fully charged pack. Possible, but rare.
A more realistic problem is that you start with a fully charged pack, so
you can't charge it at high current. Even a short but steep hill (like
going down your driveway) could produce a very high peak regen current.
The battery voltage would shoot way up, which could damage something.
So, you still need to limit regen when you first start driving, even if
you don't live on a mountain.
> Couldn't we use an alternator (or 2), stepped up, to provide a little
> juice back to the pack during braking? (have this whole thing turned on
> by a brake-pedal switch).
Sure; that's what this is all about.
> Have a gas-pedal switch turn on 1 alternator when it is released, and
> the brake pedal turn on another, if its depressed a little....
> I know this is Rube-Goldberg...but I thought I'd ask anyway.
It isn't much different that what most cars do anyway. Many automotive
systems are extremely crude, when you get right down to what they are
doing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: AC Questions - Just got my donor pickup!!!-
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 13:00:15 -0800
Hey all,
I just got a 1990 4x4 toyota pickup to convert and have some
questions about what setup to use.
I have been planning on doing AC because of the regen and efficiency
advantages but was wondering about the difference in power and torque
between an AC and DC motor.
I have been looking at the AC55 motor and DMOC445 controller kit from
electroauto.com and thinking about 324volts of sealed lead batteries
until something like altairnano is available.
Seeing as how I live in a pretty rural small town I would need to be
able to go 80 miles to the nearest bigger town and then how would I
get back the same day? so I would actually need a 120 mile range...
seems unfeasible with lead batteries???
So with this in mind I am thinking a 50 mile range would be really
doable for me and maybe concentrate on performance vs. squeezing out
range.
So fast acceleration and lots of torque would be nice. I am going to
use my stock transmission.
Soo what do you all think about this?
Does it sound like the AC55 will be a good fit?
Is there a better AC system available?
Any comments and suggestions will be great :)
Thanks,
Tehben
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7" ADCmotors)
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 14:37:40 -0600
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And so do you (Lee) happen to know what the typical boost is--1.5x? I
imagine it's different for the different makes of controllers; I'm
wondering if I could get (say) 144v out of a 120v pack. (I checked the
CafeElectric site but didn't see a spec for this)
You can't do that. The ratio is (almost):
Vmotor Ibattery
--------- = ------------
Vbattery Imotor
Vmotor < Vbattery. Except in regen.
Imotor < Imax.
There are diode losses and resistive losses and switching losses but
roughly that's what will happen (within maybe 5%). Motor voltage will always
be below battery voltage. Motor current will be at or below the controller's
motor current limit. You can't get a higher voltage using this sort of
controller very easily using the motor's inductance. You'd need a separate
(big) inductor to pull that off though it could be done, in theory.
-Dale
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:43:48 -0600
From: Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
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Here are some quick calculations. I didn't see which model year Miata
you have, so I'll just use round numbers for a "close enough"
approximation.
1) Your differential gear reduction will be somewhere around 4:1
2) Your tires will get somewhere around 900 revolutions per mile
Let's say you remove the tranny and hook up directly to the drive shaft
or differential, using two 8-inch ADC motors. At 5000 RPM, the wheel
will be spinning at 1250 RPM, giving a top speed of around 83 MPH.
The 4:1 ratio is about equivalent to what you get in 4th gear on a
5-speed Miata.
For hill climbing and acceleration, switch the motors to series instead
of parallel, your should get power quite close to 2nd gear on a 5-speed
Miata.
Some Miatas have a 4.3:1 differential ratio, which would drop your top
speed to around 77 MPH at 5000 RPM (or 85 MPH at 5500 RPM), and give a
little extra power.
Bill Dennis
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: DD, Cog Calcs, aero and Zap? (was RE: ADC 6.7 redline and how to
measure it.)
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 16:53:28 -0500
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Hi Randii and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Cog Calcs (was RE: ADC 6.7 redline and how to
measure it.)
>|Roger's calcs with major snippages:
>|>how much power is needed to maintain a given speed (e.g.
>60mph or 75mph).
>|>Playing with Uve's calculator (1400lb after conversion,
>0.25Cd, 12ft^2 A,
>|>0.95 drive efficiency, 0.0015 rolling resistance and
>0.003 brake/steering
>|>drag, and 185/75R14 tires for 839.8rev/mi), yields an
>estimate of 5.7HP @
>|>60mph, [EMAIL PROTECTED], and [EMAIL PROTECTED] (still air, no
>incline).
That looks just like the Freedom EV spec's, calc's
by EVofA. We'll see soon if it will actually do them.
Who's, what vehicle is it?
|>With a K91 6.7" the EV Parts curve suggests
>that on 75V it can only sustain
>|>11+HP required for 70mph+ speeds (best case) for 5-15min.
If it's under 60F outside it probably can as the
batt pack normally doesn't last long unless you are 40-55%
lead battery weight. AFAIR you are using a small pack,
lighter weight though may have your mixed with another.
Another way is massive forced air cooling.
Since I'll have 80-130 mile range, I really need
more power avaiabilitywhic basicly for long distance mean
how much heat dissappation, so I'll go usually with 2 A89-
D+D ES21's that are about 8-10 hp each but also have 2
motors to spread the heat too. And 2 ES-21 motors are about
the same price as 1 K91 with a lot more power and double
torque for starting. This will allow me to run unlimited
range with a 5kw generator.
D+D are the ADC people who helped us for decades
with EV motors when few would return our calls so if you
need 6.7" motors, they will custom build in any winding,
voltage, Series/Shunt/sep-ex fields and controllers to go
with them at good prices so we should by our 6.7" motors
from them if needed new. I make no money from them nor get
better discounts, at least not until I buy a whole lot of
them.
On direct drive, DD, the way for series motors is to
widen the motor's torque curve, which in a series motors
case, mean getting more power at higher rpm.
Ways I do it are S/P motors which allow you a lower
ratio gear while giving better starting torque, almost like
a 2 speed S 2-1,P 1-1 transmission. That helps a lot but you
can use field weakening to make the motor draw more amps,
thus more top end power. Another is using a lower voltage
motor,s on higher voltage so it will have higher rpm power.
I just gear for my top speed wanted, on my personal
Freedom it will be about 75mph. With that and tire dia, you
can figure out the gear ratio based on your motor specs.
On Zap. Are they the same people, Zap comics, Zap
EV's? As badly as ZAP has been run, I can believe they took
too much stuff in the 60's!! For newbies, deal with them
with care if at all. I won't do any business with them from
their past fiascos. You wouldn't believe all the stories
I've heard from people who have had to deal, been screwed
by them. Watch out for stock offers!!
>At 96V it can
>|>do 12hp+ for up to 30min before overheating.
>
>Damon's comments:
>> These numbers look like they are in the ballpark when
>> comparing them to what a slightly lighter flavor motor
>> has done on my motorcycle. With a nice stiff 48 volt
>> pack of STM5 100's and a total weight of 750-800 lbs
>> including rider I was able to cruise on the freeway at
>~60 mph for 11 miles straight without any heating issues
>whatsoever. Excellent -- love it when experience meshes
>with calculated models. Thanks for the report, Damon!
>
>> The K91 motor is about 10lbs heavier and about 1.5 inches
>> longer then the (Tropica) motor I use on my motorcycle.
>> So it should be able to sustain a little more power.
>Good -- I'm feeling better and better about my motor
>choice.
>
>> If you haven't been on the list that long, you might want
>> to hook up with Jerry Dycus for some easy to implement
>aero tips. I have several good saved posts from him
>already, and will ask for commentary a bit later after I
>have a frame and start sketching the tub in better detail
>-- I'm accumulating quite the folder of reference material.
>The fiberglass tub I envision should be fairly sleek, and
>I'm definitely aware how big a deal that is with speeds
>over 40mph.
If you want good range at speed, aero is the way!!
Without it, you are not going far. But aero should be at the
beginning, not later in the design.
Aero really is easy. It's just how much air you
accelerate. If you part the air easily which isn't hard, and
bring it back together cleanly without moving much of it
forward, a lot harder, have a clean underbody, well designed
wheelwells, smooth without obstructions, places where air
comes out sideways like door gaps, cut the rear off cleanly
without any rounding or even a slight spoiler you can have a
very aero, long range at speed EV.
If your EV or ICE has rounded rear corners, run a
bead of clear adhesive caulk like Polyseamseal between your
thumb and forefinger to make a little spoiler to make the
air break away cleanly before the inward turning curve
curves too much as you just want to get the air started
inward but not so much it breaks out into outward flowing,
diverging vortexes which drag tons of air with you. If you
lead it back inward gently, no more than 13-15deg anywhere
from the midbody aft, and cut it off just right, the air
forms a virtual self fairing cone behind the car until the
air comes back together, the air near where it started, thus
low aero drag.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Randii
>
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