EV Digest 6732
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Jinxed!
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: All the things I'm learning (about controllers & 6.7' ADC
motors)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rectactor Controller Suggestions
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: DD, Cog Calcs, aero and Zap? (was RE: ADC 6.7 redline and how to
measure it.)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE Aero (was RE: DD, Cog Calcs, aero and Zap? (was RE: ADC 6.7 redline and
how to measure it.))
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with Advanced
Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC Questions - Just got my donor pickup!!!-
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: , now drawings- ExpressPCB
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Golf Industries Controller problem
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck
Talking with Electro Automotive about a transmission adapter.
They have some patterns for older Datsun Trucks. ~ 1970
Does anyone have a clue if my 1965 may match some of the newer
Engines/Transmissions.
Thanks;
Dennis
Hello Dennis,
Just go to a auto parts store and have them look up a flywheel and/or
transmission for your truck. The parts catalog will cross reference to
other years.
I found this out to see is a Electro Auto adapter will fit my transmission
that fits a 1975 350 cu.in. v-8 engine which also fits a 1992 C-10 V-6
pattern they have in stock.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All that talk about Curtis controller failures bit me in my a$$ today.
I was 4 miles from home, waiting at a stop light. The light turned green, I
applied the pedal, the car bumped forward an inch and stopped dead.
I was next to a gas station (isn't that ironic?) so I pushed the Bug in. I
don't carry many tools but I do carry a Fluke multi-meter.
All battery interconnects: Check. (pack meter read good also)
Main contactor: Check.
Pre-charge resistors: Check. They glow when I hit the switch and go out.
Pot-box: Check. 5 ohms when the pedal is at rest, a few hundred ohms when
weighed down with my flashlight.
Motor: Check. All cables secure. Brushes have plenty of meat on them.
Controller: All connections secure...
When the key is on, the contactor clicks and 137 volts is then present on
the controller input lugs.
When I weigh the pedal down with the flashlight, there is no voltage output
from the controller, no voltage supplied to the motor. No fluctuation on the
meter whatsoever.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It's a 1221B rated for 120 volts. It's had
128 volt pack on it for years. It was mounted without a heatsink until I
bought it. I'd like to buy a Zilla 1k but I don't have $2k or 6 months to
wait. Anyone have a gently used 1231c laying around?
Rich A.
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--- Begin Message ---
Problem: the list needs a way to make and share simple drawings, so that Mr H can draw one and Ms Y can edit it, and
everybody can read it. Is this solved already?
I was just looking at a complex ascii diagram when I saw your comment, Lee.
There's a bunch of different CAD formats to draw in, but I was thinking that Powerpoint or OpenOffice are available to
all, and OO can read and write Powerpoint *.ppt files. If Powerpoint ( or some better choice see below...) is good
enough ( I dont like it, but its common) that would at least allow folks to draw a picture and share it.
below: OK there are open source ( i.e. free) diagram drawers and for all I know maybe electrical CAD programs. Most
open source stuff these days runs on Windoze and usually OSX too. so there is a chance that one program would fit all
three OSes.
Offer: If no one has a ready-made solution, or Powerpoint is hated, I'd be happy to research the open source drawing
programs and offer up whatever is available for a consensus choice.
I'd be happy to send some Paypal bux to fund a trip to Kinko's for scanning, and I'm sure everyone else would too. Even
better would be editable drawings though.
Interested?
Already have a program folks can use? Linux-Win32-OSX required, or a standard
format like dxf everybody can read.
just an idea....
John
Lee Hart wrote:
Since there seems to be some effort in this area, maybe it's time we
tried to gather all the contactor controller documentation we have, put
it online somewhere. I have perhaps a half dozen sets of documentation,
but no way to scan them or get them online. It will also take a fair bit
of writing so a beginner can even understand them --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, no, no. It's not a "fixed" boost and it has NOTHING to do with the
brand of controller. It's a variable effect that depends on a number of
factors including "throttle" position and motor RPM.
Let's say we have a 120V pack with a 1,000 amp controller.
If you floor it at low RPMs, the current across the motor shoots up to the
controller's limit. Because of the low RPMs the effective voltage across
the motor is low, let's say 6V.
6V * 1,000 amps = 6,000 watts. Ignoring losses, the input power to the
controller must also be 6,000 watts.
6,000 watts / 120V = 50 amps. So your current amplification is 20X.
As the motor spools up the current acrost it remains the same (controler
limit) but the apparent voltage across it increases. This makes the
current on the battery side climb, so the current applification
continuously drops. Note: even though the level of current aplification
is dropping, the POWER level is increasing, because the input current is
increasing. This continues until the controller comes out of current
limit, at that point input and output voltages and currents are equal.
> And so do you (Lee) happen to know what the typical boost is--1.5x? I
> imagine it's different for the different makes of controllers; I'm
> wondering if I could get (say) 144v out of a 120v pack. (I checked the
> CafeElectric site but didn't see a spec for this)
>
> --Steve
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is no "typical" battery amps. It continuously varies from almost
zero to the controllers current limit. Assuming of course that you keep
your foot burried.
Otherwise it will also vary depending on throttle position.
> Hi all,
>
> So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
> conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
> instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>
> I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
> during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
> a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>
> Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
> do it", perhaps ;)
>
> -Ian
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
<The regulator is a simple electrical or electronic circuit that adjusts
<the field current (current flowing in the rotating part) to control the
<output voltage. If you just tie the field straight to the rectified
<output, you get 12vdc at 600 engine rpm (idle), and 120vdc at 6000
<engine rpm (full speed).
Lee, if the regulator is totally bypassed and full pack voltage applied to the
field, my understanding is that output voltage will try to rise very high
(depending on RPM). Assuming that a solid connection is made to the traction
pack, and that the pack is capable of accepting every amp that is being
generated, won't the pack try to clamp the output voltage to battery level?
Over time the pack voltage would rise of course, but until Bulk levels were
reached would this no-control strategy work?
(The scenario is a Mt. Washington descent where my AGM battery pack would be
deeply discharged and the objective is to provide braking action.)
Theory question: would there be any advantage if some time of buck/boost
controller could be used at higher speeds i.e. convert higher voltage to
current?
thanks!!
Frank
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
> Problem: the list needs a way to make and share simple
> drawings, so that Mr H can draw one and Ms Y can edit it,
> and everybody can read it. Is this solved already?
The first part of this problem is having a repository where files such
as this can be placed so that others may view them and grab a copy to
edit. Perhaps evdl.org?
> Already have a program folks can use?
I like ExpressPCB/ExpressSCH as a free, simple package for drawing
circuits up. Just for doing diagrams, all one needs is the ExpressSCH
program, but even if you never take advantage of the PCB manufacturing
service suppoered by the layout software (ExpressPCB), it can be very
valuable for helping to plan your perfboard, etc. circuit layout and
with a bit of fiddling can even be used to etch your own PCBs using one
of the toner tranfer methods:
<http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm>
The (.sch) diagram can only be edited using the ExpressSCH program, but
can be exported to a bitmap, and then the bitmap can be pasted into
Paint and saved in a more compact format such as .gif. Or simply print
it to .pdf format.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that the M+ lead needs to be connected to the leftmost battery
string instead of the rightmost one.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> <The regulator is a simple electrical or electronic circuit that adjusts
> <the field current (current flowing in the rotating part) to control the
> <output voltage. If you just tie the field straight to the rectified
> <output, you get 12vdc at 600 engine rpm (idle), and 120vdc at 6000
> <engine rpm (full speed).
>
>
> Lee, if the regulator is totally bypassed and full pack voltage applied to
> the field, my understanding is that output voltage will try to rise very
> high (depending on RPM).
Yup, right up to the point where the field coils fry. If you apply full
pack voltage to the field (which has a relatively low resistance) it will
draw something like 20-30 amps. The wires are only sized to handle about
2 amps, so they will melt in a matter of seconds.
> Assuming that a solid connection is made to the
> traction pack, and that the pack is capable of accepting every amp that is
> being generated, won't the pack try to clamp the output voltage to battery
> level?
Yes, and assuming you've solved the field melting problem, now you have to
worry about melting the stator coils. The battery clamps the voltage
(sort of) but it does this by drawing huge currents and burning off the
excess voltage in the alternators I2R losses.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger this is great. except. Its only works on Windoze. *I* can live with that <grumbling> but probably a substantial
fraction of listers are non-Win32 ?
BTW there is a similar system for machining over the 'net with free CAD software. I think its Win32 only as well.
"emachine" I think. You guys might price out a motor-to-tranny plate through them. ( or just buy a drill press with
enough swing and a big ol' piece of aluminum.)
John
Roger Stockton wrote:
Already have a program folks can use?
I like ExpressPCB/ExpressSCH as a free, simple package for drawing
circuits up. Just for doing diagrams, all one needs is the ExpressSCH
program, but even if you never take advantage of the PCB manufacturing
service suppoered by the layout software (ExpressPCB), it can be very
valuable for helping to plan your perfboard, etc. circuit layout and
with a bit of fiddling can even be used to etch your own PCBs using one
of the toner tranfer methods:
<http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm>
The (.sch) diagram can only be edited using the ExpressSCH program, but
can be exported to a bitmap, and then the bitmap can be pasted into
Paint and saved in a more compact format such as .gif. Or simply print
it to .pdf format.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
> Roger this is great. except. Its only works on Windoze. *I*
> can live with that <grumbling> but probably a substantial
> fraction of listers are non-Win32 ?
I suspect the vast majority of listers are using Windoze, or have access
to it (no this is not an invitation for a poll of lister OS preferences!
;^)
I thought there were applications to emulate a Windoze box on Apple
machines, and half expected something like this would exist for Linux
also; won't ExpressPCB/SCH run in these virtual environments?
There is a reason why ASCII art endures! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The plan was to run 50x 90Ah LFP lithium cells, weighing around
150kgs and volume of around 110 litres (0.11m^2) - probably half
where the fuel tank was, and half under the bonnet.
On 04/05/2007, at 2:15 AM, GWMobile wrote:
Where are you thinking of putting the batteries for the Miata and
how many?
Space is a problem with the car.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:27 am, George Swartz wrote:
Grade climbing and high speed are the oposite corner conditions of
performance that make gear shifting beneficial for EV's. In my
opinion,
retaining the transmission would be a good idea.
Regarding higher battery amps: if you use a chopper (solid state)
controller, it will "multiply" the amps flowing in the motor at
low speed
acceleration as needed. With this type of controller, the battery
amps will
be nearly the same for any size motor or starting gear ratio and
is related
only to the horsepower needed to accelerate the car. (not counting
second
order effects like I2R loss, or carrying extra motor weight, etc)
On Thu, 3 May 2007 22:41:22 +0800, Ian Hooper wrote
Hi all,
So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps
for
a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g
"don't
do it", perhaps ;)
-Ian
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking into this too, but there isn't much space back there.
It'd need about a 4:1 reduction ratio so probably a belt drive to the
CV joints, but finding a place for the motors is the tricky part in
this car! There would be a lot of advantages to this though:
a) Very efficient drive system
b) Inherent limited slip diff (when motors are in parallel)
c) Both motors in back means all batteries can go up front in one
pack and weight balance will still be about right.
On 04/05/2007, at 2:20 AM, GWMobile wrote:
Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on
each rear wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for
needed boost.
You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering
is implied.).
For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require
more than one wheel.
Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power
dispite the traction ads and gimmicks.
On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the
driveshaft tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor
compartment anyway you might as well keep the tranny.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
Hi all,
So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
do it", perhaps ;)
-Ian
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>|Roger's calcs with major snippages:
>|>how much power is needed to maintain a given speed (e.g.
>|>60mph or 75mph). Playing with Uve's calculator (1400lb
>|>after conversion, 0.25Cd, 12ft^2 A, 0.95 drive efficiency,
>|>0.0015 rolling resistance and 0.003 brake/steering drag,
>|>and 185/75R14 tires for 839.8rev/mi), yields an estimate
>|>of 5.7HP @ 60mph, [EMAIL PROTECTED], and [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> That looks just like the Freedom EV spec's, calc's by EVofA.
> We'll see soon if it will actually do them. Who's, what
> vehicle is it?
Jerry, it is my as-yet-vaporware trike, although the 6.7" ADC is winging
its way here. FWIW, I hope to get my 3-wheeler under that weight even
with my carcass in it (much easier to chop weight off the trike's
chassis than mine!), but I think I'll have more air resistance, and
perhaps a fattish tire out back mucking up the rolling resistance.
>|>With a K91 6.7" the EV Parts curve suggests that on 75V it
>|>can only sustain 11+HP required for 70mph+ speeds for 5-15min.
> If it's under 60F outside it probably can as the batt pack
> normally doesn't last long unless you are 40-55% lead batt
> weight.
So my disappointing expected range works *FOR* me in this case. :p
(glass half-full)
> AFAIR you are using a small pack, lighter weight though may
> have your mixed with another.
You do not. I'm hoping to keep batteries under
> And 2 ES-21 motors are about the same price as 1 K91 with
> a lot more power and double torque for starting.
NOW you tell me. ;D I've actually idly speculated on tossing a second
motor in for faster acceleration (and the ability to murder my batteries
before I get off my block).
> On direct drive, DD, the way for series motors is to
> widen the motor's torque curve <snip>
...or just cave in and add a tranny at a later date (likely).
> I just gear for my top speed wanted, on my personal
> Freedom it will be about 75mph.
Any guess-timates on how long it will take to get there, Jerry?
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have mentioned this before but someday I would like to try a high
amperage, for racing only, controller idea.
I mention this for the newbies to laugh at....
Imagine a commutator with 2 adjustable brush-riggings The commutator is
turned by a scooter motor and the accelerator is attached to one of the
brush riggings.
The other adjustable rigging is tied to a solenoid across a shunt that
serves as the current limit, pulling the second rigging away when the
amps climb.
So power comes from the batteries into one brush set and out the other
set to the motor, the duty cycle is the amount of overlap the brushes
have on the bars passing under them.
Mechanical PWM.
The part that got me was trying to find a 4" diameter commutator with
only 12 or 24 bars. I was gonn machine my own but, damn, copper is
expensive!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> But aero should be at the beginning, not later in
> the design.
In my case, essentially designing off a flat plate (much like an RC
car), and then adding DOM steel bent around the waistline for rigidity
with some connecting diagonals (imagine an Ariel Atom built as a trike),
I can jump into that hairball (airball?) later.
Re-bulleted, for reference:
> Aero really is easy. It's just how much air you accelerate.
> 1.) If you part the air easily which isn't hard
> 2.) bring it back together cleanly without moving much of
> it forward, a lot harder
> 3.) have a clean underbody
> 4.) well designed wheelwells
> 5.) smooth without obstructions
> 6.) places where air comes out sideways like door gaps
> 7.) cut the rear off cleanly without any rounding or even
> a slight spoiler
> ...you can have a very aero, long range at speed EV.
For fun:
1.) front end will likely resemble a bathtub Porsche
2.) 2f1r tadpole/tail-dragger profile should help with this
3.) underbody should be dead flat in front of the swing arm
4.) front wheelwells will again borrow from the Porsche, rear will be
increasingly exposed, much like a sport bike (enclosed would be more
aero, but my personal taste is tough to explain).
5.) should be fairly smooth
6.) no doors <grin> -- the stop behind the seats and before the swing
arm is my biggest concern. I can't even visualize what that will look
like yet, but it will have a motor sitting on the swing arm.
7.) I plan a slight spoiler, but I'm again worried a bit about the
exposed rear wheel.
Great common-sense stuff, Jerry, I'll pack it away for later, when the
trike starts to grow some 'glass.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, this is very helpful and ties a lot of what you guys have been saying
together for me. There's never a free-lunch, is there?
----- Original Message ----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 8:26:17 PM
Subject: Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
> <The regulator is a simple electrical or electronic circuit that adjusts
> <the field current (current flowing in the rotating part) to control the
> <output voltage. If you just tie the field straight to the rectified
> <output, you get 12vdc at 600 engine rpm (idle), and 120vdc at 6000
> <engine rpm (full speed).
>
>
> Lee, if the regulator is totally bypassed and full pack voltage applied to
> the field, my understanding is that output voltage will try to rise very
> high (depending on RPM).
Yup, right up to the point where the field coils fry. If you apply full
pack voltage to the field (which has a relatively low resistance) it will
draw something like 20-30 amps. The wires are only sized to handle about
2 amps, so they will melt in a matter of seconds.
> Assuming that a solid connection is made to the
> traction pack, and that the pack is capable of accepting every amp that is
> being generated, won't the pack try to clamp the output voltage to battery
> level?
Yes, and assuming you've solved the field melting problem, now you have to
worry about melting the stator coils. The battery clamps the voltage
(sort of) but it does this by drawing huge currents and burning off the
excess voltage in the alternators I2R losses.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gee, Rod, take a valium or something.
I did know what I had posted, when I said 'it may be interesting to
some' that didn't mean that I don't think that ZAP are scumbags, just
that I thought that on a list about EVs that some people are interested
in all that's going on, not just the sanitized version.
Now I'll go away and wait until ZAP delivers its 15 millionth Smart car
EV...
Roderick Wilde wrote:
It would be best if you read what you are posting , before posting.
This is at the end of this post as well as all ZAP generated propaganda:
"Forward-looking statements in this release are made pursuant to the
"safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform
Act of 1995. Investors are cautioned that such forward-looking
statements involve risks and uncertainties, including, without
limitation, continued acceptance of the Company's products, increased
levels of competition for the Company, new products and technological
changes, the Company's dependence upon third-party suppliers,
intellectual property rights, and other risks detailed from time to
time in the Company's periodic reports filed with the Securities and
Exchange Commission."
Your naivety could make you eligible to join Hitler's Youth Core. Oh,
sorry, wrong decade and this statement could be construed as
political, but in this case it isn't. This post has to do with due
diligence. Learn to do the research before posting to a world wide
site. The information is all out there for anyone who can read. Most
of us have been reading ZAP press releases for years and most of us
know who these folks are.
Roderick Wilde
PS: Those 650 horsepower claims have been beat to death on this list.
Please check the archives.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with Advanced
Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
Well, I know what many people think of Zap, but this may be
interesting to some, nonetheless:
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=196664
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--
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Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
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I think the trans/no trans tradeoff might change significantly depending on
performance expectations. In my case, it looks like my goals for my Jeep
EJ-7 (acceleration at least on par with my 4.0 Cherokee) can be reached with
a trans, a 9" motor and a Zilla 1K (AGM's may be required). The trans cost
me $80 plus a rebuild kit. I suspect to get similar performance without the
trans would require an 11" motor or two 9" motors with serial parallel
switching to get enough watts to the tires without going straight into
current limiting. So unless I'm missing something, even though I am building
from scratch, the trans was over a kilobuck cheaper than a motor upgrade,
since I was already at a 9" motor. Now if you meant scratch building with
all new parts, or if you only needed to go from a 6.7" motor to an 8" or an
8" to a 9" to meet your acceleration goals, that would be a different story.
Does my logic seem reasonable (before I put down motor money)?
TIA,
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
Marty Hewes wrote:
Regarding efficiency, I suspect the most efficient, and lightest
would be a manual...
The most efficient setup is *no* transmission. However, most cars being
converted come with one, so most people use it.
Dual motors and no gearbox sounds interesting, but launching without gear
reduction sounds like it would take a lot of current and be tough on the
batteries to me, but I haven't tried it.
The batteries don't care, because the controller steps the voltage down
(and the current up) as needed.
But if you go transmissionless, the motor and controller need to be
bigger, to supply the higher motor currents needed. When you're building
from scratch, or have to *buy* a transmission, it's cheaper to leave out
the transmission and pay a little more for a bigger motor and controller.
That's why most scratch-built EVs don't have transmissions.
If you've already got the transmission that came with the car, it is
essentially "free", so using it lets you get by with a smaller (i.e.
cheaper) motor and controller. That's why most EV conversions have
transmissions.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Siemens, BRUSA and MES make them as well, Viktor from the list sells
them at http://www.metricmind.com
Before you decide on AC.. what is your budget?
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OK, I'll admit, I ordered the BLUEPRINTS from
MotherEarth News on the 75mpg Hybrid. That said, in
those blueprints, are pretty much the same motorized
PWM you just spoke of. It is built using a windshield
wiper motor, driving the commutator out of a 4 brush
starter motor. It describes in pretty good detail on
how to rewire the commutator contacts, etc.
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have mentioned this before but someday I would
> like to try a high
> amperage, for racing only, controller idea.
> I mention this for the newbies to laugh at....
>
> Imagine a commutator with 2 adjustable
> brush-riggings The commutator is
> turned by a scooter motor and the accelerator is
> attached to one of the
> brush riggings.
>
> The other adjustable rigging is tied to a solenoid
> across a shunt that
> serves as the current limit, pulling the second
> rigging away when the
> amps climb.
>
> So power comes from the batteries into one brush set
> and out the other
> set to the motor, the duty cycle is the amount of
> overlap the brushes
> have on the bars passing under them.
>
> Mechanical PWM.
>
> The part that got me was trying to find a 4"
> diameter commutator with
> only 12 or 24 bars. I was gonn machine my own but,
> damn, copper is
> expensive!
>
>
>
>
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
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I've been using ExpressPCB for 6 years creating
prototype boards at work. Since I do the layout work
I often come up with new ideas on how to create a
better design. When it's time for the pre-production
PCB I hand it off to our in house layout guy, by then
I've already figured out most of the problems I would
not have considered using traditional prototype
techniques.
I just received a board yesterday that includes a BLDC
development board for the Microchip dsPIC2010, a brush
motor control using the PIC 12F863 and 5 other
'government' projects that were tacked on at company
cost. When I receive the main board I just dremel off
the 'government boards'. I have an LED lighted
license plate for my sons 'fastcar' next year for
Indian Guides, an LED cop car light bar and a keyring
with my name and address in silkscreen on the topside
and copper on the bottom.
I've never had quality issues with the ExpressPCB
boards, in fact I used an original prototype board to
drive my sons BLDC controlled EV (36V of 28Ahr
batteries would get me up to 30MPH).
If anybody is brave enough to design their own control
I would recommend this software for creating the
circuit layout. Even if you don't want to do circuit
layout I've used the schematic editor to create wiring
diagrams for the Myers Motors NMG (Sparrow) for
consulting work (I installed one of the first Zilla 1k
controls on a Sparrow and documented the work with
ExpressPCB schematic editor).
Rod
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> john fisher wrote:
>
> > Problem: the list needs a way to make and share
> simple
> > drawings, so that Mr H can draw one and Ms Y can
> edit it,
> > and everybody can read it. Is this solved already?
>
> The first part of this problem is having a
> repository where files such
> as this can be placed so that others may view them
> and grab a copy to
> edit. Perhaps evdl.org?
>
> > Already have a program folks can use?
>
> I like ExpressPCB/ExpressSCH as a free, simple
> package for drawing
> circuits up. Just for doing diagrams, all one needs
> is the ExpressSCH
> program, but even if you never take advantage of the
> PCB manufacturing
> service suppoered by the layout software
> (ExpressPCB), it can be very
> valuable for helping to plan your perfboard, etc.
> circuit layout and
> with a bit of fiddling can even be used to etch your
> own PCBs using one
> of the toner tranfer methods:
>
>
<http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm>
>
> The (.sch) diagram can only be edited using the
> ExpressSCH program, but
> can be exported to a bitmap, and then the bitmap can
> be pasted into
> Paint and saved in a more compact format such as
> .gif. Or simply print
> it to .pdf format.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
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From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I think the trans/no trans tradeoff might change significantly
> depending on performance expectations.
It's not really an acceleration performance issue. Once you have enough motor
current to spin the tires in the one-and-only gear a transmissionless EV has,
there is no point to other lower gear ratios. The battery current will be the
same.
> The trans cost me $80 plus a rebuild kit. I suspect to get similar
> performance without the trans would require an 11" motor or two 9"
> motors with serial parallel switching to get enough watts to the
> tires without going straight into current limiting.
What I said was that the cost to buy a *new* transmission was greater than the
*additional* cost of slightly larger motor and controller. In your case, you
have a *free* transmission that only needs an $80 rebuild; so it's cheaper for
you to use this transmission with a smaller motor and controller.
The physical size of the motor doesn't have much effect on the torque it can
produce -- that's more the function of the controller and batteries (i.e. how
much power they can provide). What the motor size really does is determine how
*long* you can make that torque before it overheats. Your jeep could accelerate
from 0-60 mph just as fast with a single 9" motor, a single 11" motor, or two
9" motors. But the single 9" may only be able to do it for 1 minute; the 11"
motor can do it for 3 minutes, and two 9" motors for 10 minutes.
With a single-speed drive, you need a big enough motor to deliver the torque
needed to climb the steepest hill you plan on without overheating. There may
not *be* any steep enough hills where you live to take more than 1 minute to
climb them -- in that case, a smaller motor is fine.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Roger Stockton wrote:
I thought there were applications to emulate a Windoze box on Apple
machines, and half expected something like this would exist for Linux
also; won't ExpressPCB/SCH run in these virtual environments?
actually you can run Windoze on the new Macs directly, but you need to
buy a copy. yes there is a win32 emulator for Linux, WINE.
Let the listers decide what they want, as I say I can scrape up a win32
machine if I have to.
There is a reason why ASCII art endures! ;^>
heh heh I have to firmly disagree! there's lots of free drawing programs.
thanks
John
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I don't know if you've been following this board, but the
MotherEarthNews hybrid is an obvious hoax.
There's no question that a little 5 hp would never be able to keep an
Opel cruising at a useful speed. Nor would the small mass of batts have
been able to provide the instanteous hp or capacity for the electric
range he specifies.
I suppose if you wanted a copy for kicks, $25 is hardly a significant
chunk of money to throw away as things go. Was that what you were going
for?
Danny
Michael Barkley wrote:
OK, I'll admit, I ordered the BLUEPRINTS from
MotherEarth News on the 75mpg Hybrid. That said, in
those blueprints, are pretty much the same motorized
PWM you just spoke of. It is built using a windshield
wiper motor, driving the commutator out of a 4 brush
starter motor. It describes in pretty good detail on
how to rewire the commutator contacts, etc.
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have mentioned this before but someday I would
like to try a high
amperage, for racing only, controller idea.
I mention this for the newbies to laugh at....
Imagine a commutator with 2 adjustable
brush-riggings The commutator is
turned by a scooter motor and the accelerator is
attached to one of the
brush riggings.
The other adjustable rigging is tied to a solenoid
across a shunt that
serves as the current limit, pulling the second
rigging away when the
amps climb.
So power comes from the batteries into one brush set
and out the other
set to the motor, the duty cycle is the amount of
overlap the brushes
have on the bars passing under them.
Mechanical PWM.
The part that got me was trying to find a 4"
diameter commutator with
only 12 or 24 bars. I was gonn machine my own but,
damn, copper is
expensive!
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
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I'm forwarding this question to the list on behalf of one of our TEAA
members.
HI guys,
I have a converted Fiero that has gotten sick. I came to a stop at a
light, but when it changed, I had no power. I had her towed home and ran
a voltage test on the batteries, but they were all 6.25-6.35. All the
terminals are tight.
I ran a test, running my voltage meter to the motor connection on the
controller and got an 88.4 reading. My car has a 108 system.
I can't find any loose wires, I don't see any loose or damaged terminal
connections.
Any suggestions?
The controller is one I've never heard of...a Golf Industries unit. It
has three flanges on the top instead of the four that a Curtis has and I
have no diagram as to how it was wired. The unit has a max of 144 v. I
can't read the minimum on it. Anyone familiar with it?
Thanks!
DC
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