EV Digest 6733
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Building your own CC Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Direct drive - thoughts?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Golf Industries Controller problem
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Linux EDA Dexign Software.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with Advanced
Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: '71 VW Super Beetle Adaptor Plate
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with Advanced Electric
Wheel Motor Technology Partner
by Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Comercial Contactor Controller
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC Questions - Just got my donor pickup!!!-
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ZAP ...didn't mr natural drive an EV?
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the Wheel with Advanced
Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Where to for E-meter repair?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) CC repository
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Jinxed!
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: CC repository
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Mechanical PWM Was: Building your own, Commercial Contactor
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: FW: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Jinxed! ( Now - Belktronix)
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Mechanical PWM Was: Building your own, Commercial Contactor
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Something else to consider is how hilly your area is.
The wheel torque required to climb a given hill is the same REGARDLESS of
speed. So the wheel torque required to climb a hill at 45 mph is the same
as the wheel torque required to go 5 mph. You will need a little bit more
torque at 45 mph to overcome the higher aerodynamic drag, but this is
pretty minor compared the torque required to climb a hill.
The point of this is, that while a larger motor with a single reduction
might be able to provide the torque, climbing a hill means that the motor
will be seeing the same high level of current even if you slow down. With
a transmission you can shift down, climb the hill slower while keeping the
motor revs up, and the motor will see less current.
If yo do decide to go with the single motor, your best stategy for
climbing hill is to do it as fast as possible to limit the amount of time
the motor sees the high amps. Of course this assumes that your batteries
can supply the large current needed to climb quickly. While the motor
current remains the same, the *motor voltage* goes up with speed, so the
*battery currrent* goes up at higher climbing speeds.
If you are battery power/current limited, then you'd be better off going
with a multispeed transmission.
> From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> I think the trans/no trans tradeoff might change significantly
>> depending on performance expectations.
>
> It's not really an acceleration performance issue. Once you have enough
> motor current to spin the tires in the one-and-only gear a
> transmissionless EV has, there is no point to other lower gear ratios. The
> battery current will be the same.
>
>> The trans cost me $80 plus a rebuild kit. I suspect to get similar
>> performance without the trans would require an 11" motor or two 9"
>> motors with serial parallel switching to get enough watts to the
>> tires without going straight into current limiting.
>
> What I said was that the cost to buy a *new* transmission was greater than
> the *additional* cost of slightly larger motor and controller. In your
> case, you have a *free* transmission that only needs an $80 rebuild; so
> it's cheaper for you to use this transmission with a smaller motor and
> controller.
>
> The physical size of the motor doesn't have much effect on the torque it
> can produce -- that's more the function of the controller and batteries
> (i.e. how much power they can provide). What the motor size really does is
> determine how *long* you can make that torque before it overheats. Your
> jeep could accelerate from 0-60 mph just as fast with a single 9" motor, a
> single 11" motor, or two 9" motors. But the single 9" may only be able to
> do it for 1 minute; the 11" motor can do it for 3 minutes, and two 9"
> motors for 10 minutes.
>
> With a single-speed drive, you need a big enough motor to deliver the
> torque needed to climb the steepest hill you plan on without overheating.
> There may not *be* any steep enough hills where you live to take more than
> 1 minute to climb them -- in that case, a smaller motor is fine.
>
>
> --
> I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into
> momentum. -- Frances Willard
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I'll be...
I thought the idea came from my own twisted brain cells.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
There have been some seriously good ideas going around. I am glad to get
so much good information, and yes, I believe it should be made more
readily available. Also the Retactor controller diagram looks really
good, I need to look at it closer in a sec. If we all put our head
together we could really made some good stuff. Even simple igbt
controllers or something and make it available to all the
doityourselfers. I just downloaded ExpressPCB to see what its like. I
understand from my EE professors that Pspice or something like that is a
good program to.
I need a Contactor 101 lesson real quick... but aren't just a heavy duty
relay with a coil and all. And the drum contactor controllers that have
been brought up are more like elabotate switches (I know that's the
purpose of a contactor anyway). One major drawback to the contactor
controllers is all the wires. Seems to me a decent contactor controller
would quadruple your wires. Could a remote switch be done? A low voltage
system maybe even pcb controlled that actuates solenoids to close a
switch directly at the batteries. No more heavy cableing. Just insert a
switch and actuator at every battery junction. I know that's a lot of
moving parts but maybe worth a try.
Thanks,
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Getting a 4:1 ratio in a belt/chain drive can be tough, unless you plan on
doing a double reduction.
If your motor sprocket is 3" in diameter, then your wheel sprocket needs
to be 12" in diamter. Those can be hard to find, tend to be expensive,
and they take up a bit of room.
> I was looking into this too, but there isn't much space back there.
> It'd need about a 4:1 reduction ratio so probably a belt drive to the
> CV joints, but finding a place for the motors is the tricky part in
> this car! There would be a lot of advantages to this though:
>
> a) Very efficient drive system
>
> b) Inherent limited slip diff (when motors are in parallel)
>
> c) Both motors in back means all batteries can go up front in one
> pack and weight balance will still be about right.
>
> On 04/05/2007, at 2:20 AM, GWMobile wrote:
>
>> Could you fit one 8 inch motor directly to the half axle joint on
>> each rear wheel? Could you drive them independently ?
>> If so you could use one motor for economy mode and kick in both for
>> needed boost.
>>
>> You would still steer with the front (no motor controlled steering
>> is implied.).
>>
>> For most normal road driving you really only need to power one wheel.
>> Only hard acceleration or slick surfaces like snow or mud require
>> more than one wheel.
>>
>> Modern roads virtually eliminate the need for multiple wheel power
>> dispite the traction ads and gimmicks.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 3 May 2007 8:58 am, David Dymaxion wrote:
>>> The miata is so small, could you get the motor(s) in the
>>> driveshaft tunnel? If you have to stick them in the motor
>>> compartment anyway you might as well keep the tranny.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2007 7:41:22 AM
>>> Subject: Direct drive - thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> So today I was giving some serious thought to doing a direct drive
>>> conversion for the Miata using two 8" motors or one 11" motor,
>>> instead of retaining the gearbox/clutch with a single 9" motor.
>>>
>>> I presume the main drawback is much higher current requirements
>>> during low-speed acceleration - anyone know typical battery amps for
>>> a Warp11 (for example) under acceleration?
>>>
>>> Anyone have any general advice on the direct drive idea? (e.g "don't
>>> do it", perhaps ;)
>>>
>>> -Ian
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
>> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>
>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Disconnect the motor and connect a standard household light bulb. The
light should brighten/dim depdning on the throttle position. Low throttle
dim light, high throttle bright light.
If so, then the controler is probably ok.
The 88V reading could just mean that the controller is chooping at less
than 100% duty cycle. 88V on the motor /should/ be making it move.
Perhaps you've got an open wire somewhere, maybe a brush lead?
> I'm forwarding this question to the list on behalf of one of our TEAA
> members.
>
> HI guys,
>
> I have a converted Fiero that has gotten sick. I came to a stop at a
> light, but when it changed, I had no power. I had her towed home and ran
> a voltage test on the batteries, but they were all 6.25-6.35. All the
> terminals are tight.
>
> I ran a test, running my voltage meter to the motor connection on the
> controller and got an 88.4 reading. My car has a 108 system.
>
> I can't find any loose wires, I don't see any loose or damaged terminal
> connections.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
>
> The controller is one I've never heard of...a Golf Industries unit. It
> has three flanges on the top instead of the four that a Curtis has and I
> have no diagram as to how it was wired. The unit has a max of 144 v. I
> can't read the minimum on it. Anyone familiar with it?
>
> Thanks!
>
> DC
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no interest in starting any OS wars here, just some info for
those wanting to design circuit baords in the *nix environment.
Geda
http://www.geda.seul.org/
The gschem program seems a bit odd, not as user friendly but man it is
efficient and powerfull. It takes the sammy hagar touch: 1 hand on the
mouse 1 hand on the keyboard.
It is a suite of tools. There are a bunch of others but Geda seems to be
the most capable if a little odd.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Now I'll go away and wait until ZAP delivers its 15 millionth Smart car
> EV...
>
Hmm, have they /delivered/ their 15th yet?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bart,
Welcome to the list. Glad you joined us. Or have you been lurking for a while?
Anyway, I haven't dealt any with the VW adaptors so I'll leave the
recommendations to the experts.
Just wanted to say hi on your first post. Get that car going so I won't be
alone at some upcoming shows :-)
Did you receive your motor yet?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> Bart Grabman wrote:
>
> I'm working on converting a '71 VW Super Beetle for my first EV project, and
> am running into some troubles, primarily with getting parts. I need an
> adaptor assembly for an air-cooled VW to an 8" Advanced motor. If anyone
> has one, or knows of somewhere that has some in stock, please let me know.
> I'd rather not build my own. I can pay today...
>
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=31&product_id=1508
>
> Bart G
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, I like:
http://sketchup.google.com/
It may not work for the Google-phobes though. :p
...as a Microsoft User (and hater), I probably don't have a leg to stand
on, though.
Randii
-----Original Message-----
From: john fisher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 3:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
Problem: the list needs a way to make and share simple drawings, so that
Mr H can draw one and Ms Y can edit it, and everybody can read it. Is
this solved already?
I was just looking at a complex ascii diagram when I saw your comment,
Lee.
There's a bunch of different CAD formats to draw in, but I was thinking
that Powerpoint or OpenOffice are available to all, and OO can read and
write Powerpoint *.ppt files. If Powerpoint ( or some better choice see
below...) is good enough ( I dont like it, but its common) that would at
least allow folks to draw a picture and share it.
below: OK there are open source ( i.e. free) diagram drawers and for
all I know maybe electrical CAD programs. Most open source stuff these
days runs on Windoze and usually OSX too. so there is a chance that one
program would fit all three OSes.
Offer: If no one has a ready-made solution, or Powerpoint is hated, I'd
be happy to research the open source drawing programs and offer up
whatever is available for a consensus choice.
I'd be happy to send some Paypal bux to fund a trip to Kinko's for
scanning, and I'm sure everyone else would too. Even better would be
editable drawings though.
Interested?
Already have a program folks can use? Linux-Win32-OSX required, or a
standard format like dxf everybody can read.
just an idea....
John
Lee Hart wrote:
>
>
> Since there seems to be some effort in this area, maybe it's time we
> tried to gather all the contactor controller documentation we have,
> put it online somewhere. I have perhaps a half dozen sets of
> documentation, but no way to scan them or get them online. It will
> also take a fair bit of writing so a beginner can even understand them
> --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparantly they have sold 90,000 cars so far???? To 75
countries?!?!
That's a figure I find very difficult to believe...
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, 4 May 2007 3:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the
Wheel with Advanced
Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
> Now I'll go away and wait until ZAP delivers its 15
millionth Smart car
> EV...
>
Hmm, have they /delivered/ their 15th yet?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing
me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you
agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I think the trans/no trans tradeoff might change significantly
depending on performance expectations.
It's not really an acceleration performance issue. Once you have enough
motor current to spin the tires in the one-and-only gear a
transmissionless EV has, there is no point to other lower gear ratios. The
battery current will be the same.
Until the tires hook up, and the motor RPM drops to the point you're not
generating much horsepower because the RPM is too low.
If I'm reading these motor specifications correctly, torque is directly
related to current. Power is directly related to both torque and RPM. If
you are operating at the current limit of the controller, a constant
current, and therefore a constant torque, then the more the RPM rises, the
more power you make. That continues up until the motor's effective
impedence (due to back EMF) rises to the point where the controller
increases the motor voltage to the pack voltage and can no longer maintain
the current. Then you shift, unless you are in top gear.
The car with the lower ratio gearing, the one with the transmission, will
allow the RPM to come up quicker, and therefore produce more horsepower, and
sooner, with the same controller current limit. So with the same controller
limit, the car with the transmission should be able to put more battery
watts to the pavement by maintaining more appropriate RPM through the gears.
Or given a similar rate of acceleration, can use a lower current controller
(cheaper) by generating it's wattage with more motor volts and fewer motor
amps.
Another way to look at it is, with less gear reduction, the motor turns
slower. At lower RPM, to get the same acceleration (same horsepower), you
need more torque, right? More torque, more motor current required? More
motor current, more controller $$? I also suspect smaller motors have lower
motor current limits, so you may need a bigger motor to handle the current
generated by trying to pull the car at low RPM, but I could be wrong about
that.
Of course if your performance expectations are low, then going from a 400
amp controller to a 500 amp controller may not cost too much more. But if
your performance expectations are higher, so that you need to go from 500
amps to a Zilla, or from a Zilla 1K to a Zilla 2K, then the extra motor
current required to maintain the same acceleration at lower RPM could get
pretty expensive, which was my point about the tradeoff being affected by
performance expectations.
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 May 2007 at 20:33, Lee Hart wrote:
> Since there seems to be some effort in this area, maybe it's time we
> tried to gather all the contactor controller documentation we have, put
> it online somewhere. I have perhaps a half dozen sets of documentation,
> but no way to scan them or get them online. It will also take a fair bit of
> writing so a beginner can even understand them -- they won't know how to read
> a
> schematic or wiring diagram, won't know how to judge current or voltage
> ratings
> for the parts they find, and won't know anything about good construction
> practices for high-power wiring.
I'm willing to scan the diagrams and post the material in the EVDL library
(http://www.evdl.org/lib/). But I'm not really qualified to write the
documentation. I will post any accompanying text material that anyone cares
to write.
Lee, if you want me to scan your documentation, contact me by private email
for my snail mail address. My private email address is on the bottom of
this page :
http://www.evdl.org/help/
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 May 2007 at 4:51, Bob Bath wrote:
> Your '83 won't have as much capacity for batteries as
> newer models
I would think that a 1983 Civic Wagon would have PLENTY of room for
batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben Dean wrote:
Hey all,
I just got a 1990 4x4 toyota pickup to convert and have some questions
about what setup to use.
Soo what do you all think about this?
Does it sound like the AC55 will be a good fit?
Where do you live (hot or cold climate)? Make sure you have ability to
adequate cool off your motor if you load it for more-less
extended periods of time.
Solectria is no longer in existence, it's been sold to
Azure dynamics years ago. Make sure DMOC445 will be well supported:
this design, copied from BRUSA who is no longer producing
it (close to 10 years by now) is very old. Not that it's bad,
but documentation may be scarce.
Is there a better AC system available?
There are, but I'll let other to comment as I may appear biased
(since my company sells them).
Any comments and suggestions will be great :)
Compare at least with offers on metricmind.com site and make your
choice. FYI, I only carry liquid cooled drive systems.
Thanks,
Tehben
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Weeeell...
From the picture shown, Mr. Natural's car may well be an EV,
albeit of the MW/km category. Astute eyes will notice the enormous
frontal area (hubba hubba!) and "suspicious vapors" emitting from
tailpipe and radiator cock.
-just call me Flakey Foont.
Didn't Mr Natural have a long white beard, drive an EV and run
around naked in the park at the drop of a hat?
I remember reading about electric cars in those pages somewhere! the
first time I ever heard about it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's probably 90,000 EVs and includes bikes and those little electric
razor scooters.
>
> Apparantly they have sold 90,000 cars so far???? To 75
> countries?!?!
>
> That's a figure I find very difficult to believe...
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Friday, 4 May 2007 3:52 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: article: ZAP (OTC BB: ZAAP) Reinvents the
> Wheel with Advanced
> Electric Wheel Motor Technology Partner
>
>> Now I'll go away and wait until ZAP delivers its 15
> millionth Smart car
>> EV...
>>
>
> Hmm, have they /delivered/ their 15th yet?
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing
> me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey,
In the process of installing my new E-meter supply, I
have fried a portion of the E-meter. I'm certain
about this, as I am reading 153V on the output of the
prescaler. There was a time during hookup when it
flashed zero in the right digit, then the middle, then
the left. Not the right readout for this guy.
On the other hand, it is running through the
functions (F1-F17) just fine, and reading current
properly. Just the voltage portion is off. It's
reading 8V for my pack, and this drops to 2V on
charge! Weird!
Does anyone do repairs on e-meters that you know
of? Or is a hopeless cause due to acquisitions of
Cruising Equipment-->Xantrex--> etc?
Thanks a bunch,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have been accumulating way too vinatge EV contactor wiring diagrams
and manuals for years.
I checked with my webmaster and have a bunch of space on my website.
Will start posting them this weekend on www.hotandcold.tv.
If anyone starts something else up, they can copy them over and post
them elsewhere.
If you want something you have posted, shoot me a jpg or gif. I would
prefer no ascii art since
I still struggle with it and converting it is still funky for me.
Draw it out by hand and scan it and shoot it to me with
any information.
This is long overdue. We need to look at good pictures and drawings.
Tom in Maine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not get ahold of Bryan at Belktronix.com? He can make you up a 500 amp
144v controller that is built like a tank for a lot less than the Curtis. His
hardware is a work of art.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900Se "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All that talk about Curtis controller failures bit me in my a$$ today.
>
> I was 4 miles from home, waiting at a stop light. The light turned green, I
> applied the pedal, the car bumped forward an inch and stopped dead.
>
> I was next to a gas station (isn't that ironic?) so I pushed the Bug in. I
> don't carry many tools but I do carry a Fluke multi-meter.
>
> All battery interconnects: Check. (pack meter read good also)
> Main contactor: Check.
> Pre-charge resistors: Check. They glow when I hit the switch and go out.
> Pot-box: Check. 5 ohms when the pedal is at rest, a few hundred ohms when
> weighed down with my flashlight.
> Motor: Check. All cables secure. Brushes have plenty of meat on them.
> Controller: All connections secure...
>
> When the key is on, the contactor clicks and 137 volts is then present on
> the controller input lugs.
> When I weigh the pedal down with the flashlight, there is no voltage output
> from the controller, no voltage supplied to the motor. No fluctuation on the
> meter whatsoever.
>
> I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It's a 1221B rated for 120 volts. It's had
> 128 volt pack on it for years. It was mounted without a heatsink until I
> bought it. I'd like to buy a Zilla 1k but I don't have $2k or 6 months to
> wait. Anyone have a gently used 1231c laying around?
>
> Rich A.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Every Body,
I was at to my local transmission shop which is only 4 blocks from me to
gets some ojt. The old guy which I have been going to for over 30 years was
building up a newer type electronic control TH-400. They also have a
exploded view of cutaway transmission parts for anybody that what to
assemble there own transmission.
My EV at one time back in 1975 had a TH-350 transmission un-modified,
excepted it had a oil pump drive shaft that was use in place of a torque
converter that was bolted directly to the motor coupler.
This type of transmission was control mainly by rpm control and not as much
by torque control. Every time you get to a certain rpm, the oil pressure
would increase to a certain level and than it would auto shift. Letting up
on the accelerator at any rpm it would than shift into Drive even at 1000
rpm.
The problem back then, that every time the transmission shifted, there was a
hard thrust of the internal clutches which would react with a torque
converter which pushes back on a flex plate which is design to flex during
this action.
In using a locking type converter (which takes a special transmission with
electrical operated value body) or use a torque converter eliminator shaft)
and not pre-increase the transmission oil pressure so the internal values
will start to work, there will or might be a hard thrust cause by the
internal clutches during take out or between shifts.
This is what took out this TH-350 transmission clutches in about 1056 miles
back in 1975. They work this out in another EV by allowing leaving the
torque converter in mounted on a standard flex plate and have the motor come
up to idle as a ICE would.
For the weight and torque required for moving my EV from a dead start, it is
now recommended to use a TH-400, built up with high torque clutches with
some time of value body that can be electrical control, so it will slowly or
ease the pressure between shifting without a torque converter or lock up
torque converter.
For a lock up torque converter, it also takes a electronic-electrical
operated value body in transmission that is rpm-torque regulated. Today
lock up torque converters are use in small engine vehicles that have a
differential axles that are 3.5:1 or greater. When the rpm of the
transmission is at the stall speed which may be between 1800 to 3000 rpm,
this type of transmission goes into overdrive, so as to lower the rpm and
oil pressure that can cause heat and break down of the transmission.
This is what also cause the failure of the TH-350 back in 1975 with a
5.57:1 differential gear. This transmission did not a overdrive to reduce
the transmission rpm and oil pressure and temperature to a safe level.
Normally a automatic transmission with out overdrive, will have a
differential gear ratios from 1.75:1 to 2.75:1 so the transmission rpm will
be kept at a safe level.
With my 5.57:1 axle ratio, I will have to watch my oil pressure and
temperature very closely for extended long drives.
Now if you are drag racing, all of the above would not concern you, because
you normally rebuilt after each run or a lot sooner.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
>
>
> > From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> I think the trans/no trans tradeoff might change significantly
> >> depending on performance expectations.
> >
> > It's not really an acceleration performance issue. Once you have enough
> > motor current to spin the tires in the one-and-only gear a
> > transmissionless EV has, there is no point to other lower gear ratios.
> > The
> > battery current will be the same.
>
> Until the tires hook up, and the motor RPM drops to the point you're not
> generating much horsepower because the RPM is too low.
>
> If I'm reading these motor specifications correctly, torque is directly
> related to current. Power is directly related to both torque and RPM. If
> you are operating at the current limit of the controller, a constant
> current, and therefore a constant torque, then the more the RPM rises, the
> more power you make. That continues up until the motor's effective
> impedence (due to back EMF) rises to the point where the controller
> increases the motor voltage to the pack voltage and can no longer maintain
> the current. Then you shift, unless you are in top gear.
>
> The car with the lower ratio gearing, the one with the transmission, will
> allow the RPM to come up quicker, and therefore produce more horsepower,
> and
> sooner, with the same controller current limit. So with the same
> controller
> limit, the car with the transmission should be able to put more battery
> watts to the pavement by maintaining more appropriate RPM through the
> gears.
> Or given a similar rate of acceleration, can use a lower current
> controller
> (cheaper) by generating it's wattage with more motor volts and fewer motor
> amps.
>
> Another way to look at it is, with less gear reduction, the motor turns
> slower. At lower RPM, to get the same acceleration (same horsepower), you
> need more torque, right? More torque, more motor current required? More
> motor current, more controller $$? I also suspect smaller motors have
> lower
> motor current limits, so you may need a bigger motor to handle the current
> generated by trying to pull the car at low RPM, but I could be wrong about
> that.
>
> Of course if your performance expectations are low, then going from a 400
> amp controller to a 500 amp controller may not cost too much more. But if
> your performance expectations are higher, so that you need to go from 500
> amps to a Zilla, or from a Zilla 1K to a Zilla 2K, then the extra motor
> current required to maintain the same acceleration at lower RPM could get
> pretty expensive, which was my point about the tradeoff being affected by
> performance expectations.
>
> Marty
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
amen
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Gocze
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 9:03 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: CC repository
Hi,
I have been accumulating way too vinatge EV contactor wiring diagrams
and manuals for years.
I checked with my webmaster and have a bunch of space on my website.
Will start posting them this weekend on www.hotandcold.tv.
If anyone starts something else up, they can copy them over and post
them elsewhere.
If you want something you have posted, shoot me a jpg or gif. I would
prefer no ascii art since
I still struggle with it and converting it is still funky for me.
Draw it out by hand and scan it and shoot it to me with
any information.
This is long overdue. We need to look at good pictures and drawings.
Tom in Maine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, this idea has been kicked around a bit. Bob Rice just mentioned it in
one of his posts a
while back. He said he had arcing problems with it. James Massey also talked
about it a few months
back. I have also been curious about the idea and have been kicking ideas back
and forth with Jim
Husted. I don't know how many of us are really interested but it sounds like
there might be a
little more than casual interest. Sounds like there is some actual experience
on the list as well.
Would hate to have to invent the wheel all over again to find out that it won't
work that well or
what snaffoos we'd need to look out for.
I think that article about the 75mpg hybrid in Mother Earth News isn't totally
bogus. I would
think that the thing actually works as described, although the performance
specifications could be
exagerated.
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well I'll be...
>
> I thought the idea came from my own twisted brain cells.
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In light of receiving recent information, I would like to redirect the below
comments to Denis Stanislaw.
Also with the appropriate amount of accolade going to Shawn for his dedication,
inspiration and encouragement.
It goes beyond your shop.....
3 days, wow.
I have a 14 yr old son drooling about building something from scratch... and
PoDC is just weeks away...
Is there a minimum age limit at the track, for other than Jr. Dragsters.
Can a 14yr old drive a bike, how about a Legends car? Will Hagerstown let me
run a 50mph Elec-trak? ;-)
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
> I read Shawn's post and thought.. "Hey cool! Way to go Shawn"
>
> Then I read John's post and thought.. "HOLY SHIT!! Way to GO Shawn!!!"
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of John Wayland
>> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:11 AM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
>>
>> Hello Shawn and All,
>>
>> Wow, congrats on the new record!
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday evening the Lawless Industries AGNS (All Go No Show)
>>> motorcycle set a new NEDRA 72 volt record for the 1/8th mile of 8.86
>>> seconds @ 77.11 MPH on good old fashion, 3 year old Hawker
>>> AGM's....with a stiff head wind and 54 degree temp but the little bike
>>> didn't seem to mind on it's way to a 14.1 @ 87 mph 1/4 mile.
>>
>> To put this into perspective, this little 72V bike ran a quicker 1/4
>> mile than an original 396 Chevelle big block muscle car. Here's another
>> comparison....though today's low 12 second White Zombie runs the 1/8
>> mile in the mid-7s, in 2001 at the Las Vegas NEDRA drags the low 14
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I didn't know he would sell a controller separately ( the only prices I
found were for a complete system)
What is the price for just a controller?
Is anyone using his equipment yet? Any comments on it?
Phil
From: Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
CC: Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Jinxed!
Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 6:11:04 -0700
Why not get ahold of Bryan at Belktronix.com? He can make you up a 500 amp
144v controller that is built like a tank for a lot less than the Curtis.
His hardware is a work of art.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900Se "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All that talk about Curtis controller failures bit me in my a$$ today.
>
> I was 4 miles from home, waiting at a stop light. The light turned
green, I
> applied the pedal, the car bumped forward an inch and stopped dead.
>
> I was next to a gas station (isn't that ironic?) so I pushed the Bug in.
I
> don't carry many tools but I do carry a Fluke multi-meter.
>
> All battery interconnects: Check. (pack meter read good also)
> Main contactor: Check.
> Pre-charge resistors: Check. They glow when I hit the switch and go out.
> Pot-box: Check. 5 ohms when the pedal is at rest, a few hundred ohms
when
> weighed down with my flashlight.
> Motor: Check. All cables secure. Brushes have plenty of meat on them.
> Controller: All connections secure...
>
> When the key is on, the contactor clicks and 137 volts is then present
on
> the controller input lugs.
> When I weigh the pedal down with the flashlight, there is no voltage
output
> from the controller, no voltage supplied to the motor. No fluctuation on
the
> meter whatsoever.
>
> I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It's a 1221B rated for 120 volts. It's
had
> 128 volt pack on it for years. It was mounted without a heatsink until I
> bought it. I'd like to buy a Zilla 1k but I don't have $2k or 6 months
to
> wait. Anyone have a gently used 1231c laying around?
>
> Rich A.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
>
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
>
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger. Join the im Initiative. Help make a difference today.
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I'm being naive, but I would assume arc suppression to be rather simple.
In fact I'm suprised that Bob came up with a rectactor but didn't hit on the
solution for arc suppression.
I'm not going to reveal what it is that I think would work, yet. First I want
those thinking about this to see if they come up with the same thought.
Research, and Think about what an electronic controller (EC) uses to prevent
"arcing" from destroying the FET's the first time they shut off. A
contactor/rectactor/drum/rotating-brush controller doesn't require this device,
but an EC would immediately die without one.
Please.. Roger, Lee, Rod, Rich and others who have designed controllers let
"them" think about this one for a while. Feel free to email me offlist to
explain why it won't work though!!
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chet Fields
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:24 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Mechanical PWM Was: Building your own, Commercial Contactor
>
> Actually, this idea has been kicked around a bit. Bob Rice just mentioned
> it
> in one of his posts a
> while back. He said he had arcing problems with it. James Massey also
> talked
> about it a few months
> back. I have also been curious about the idea and have been kicking ideas
> back and forth with Jim
> Husted. I don't know how many of us are really interested but it sounds
> like
> there might be a
> little more than casual interest. Sounds like there is some actual
> experience on the list as well.
> Would hate to have to invent the wheel all over again to find out that it
> won't work that well or
> what snaffoos we'd need to look out for.
>
> I think that article about the 75mpg hybrid in Mother Earth News isn't
> totally bogus. I would
> think that the thing actually works as described, although the performance
> specifications could be
> exagerated.
>
>
> --- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Well I'll be...
>>
>> I thought the idea came from my own twisted brain cells.
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
