EV Digest 6734
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: FW: Jinxed! ( Now - Belktronix)
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Jinxed! ( Now - Belktronix)
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Looking for a 2000 or newer EV minivan; or, someone who want to make one,
for BC
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Rectactor Controller Suggestions
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Mechanical PWM Was: Building your own, Commercial Contactor
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ZAP ...didn't mr natural drive an EV?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: FW: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Puka Minibike
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rectactor Controller Suggestions
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: FW: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Linux EDA Dexign Software.
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Automatic or Manual?
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't mean to take any business away from Bryan or Otmar. Thay are "one of
us" after all. But there is another EV'r building "less than Zilla" controllers
and associated EV electronics.
www.evcraft.com
I have not dealt with him so cannot give a "rating" of craftmanship, just
pointing out another option.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Phil Marino
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:57 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Jinxed! ( Now - Belktronix)
>
>
> Mark,
>
> I didn't know he would sell a controller separately ( the only prices I
> found were for a complete system)
>
> What is the price for just a controller?
>
> Is anyone using his equipment yet? Any comments on it?
>
> Phil
>
>>From: Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>CC: Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Re: Jinxed!
>>Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 6:11:04 -0700
>>
>>Why not get ahold of Bryan at Belktronix.com? He can make you up a 500
> amp
>
>>144v controller that is built like a tank for a lot less than the Curtis.
>>His hardware is a work of art.
>>
>>Mark Ward
>>95 Saab 900Se "Saabrina"
>>www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>---- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > All that talk about Curtis controller failures bit me in my a$$ today.
>> >
>> > I was 4 miles from home, waiting at a stop light. The light turned
>>green, I
>> > applied the pedal, the car bumped forward an inch and stopped dead.
>> >
>> > I was next to a gas station (isn't that ironic?) so I pushed the Bug
> in.
>
>>I
>> > don't carry many tools but I do carry a Fluke multi-meter.
>> >
>> > All battery interconnects: Check. (pack meter read good also)
>> > Main contactor: Check.
>> > Pre-charge resistors: Check. They glow when I hit the switch and go
> out.
>> > Pot-box: Check. 5 ohms when the pedal is at rest, a few hundred ohms
>>when
>> > weighed down with my flashlight.
>> > Motor: Check. All cables secure. Brushes have plenty of meat on them.
>> > Controller: All connections secure...
>> >
>> > When the key is on, the contactor clicks and 137 volts is then present
>>on
>> > the controller input lugs.
>> > When I weigh the pedal down with the flashlight, there is no voltage
>>output
>> > from the controller, no voltage supplied to the motor. No fluctuation
> on
>
>>the
>> > meter whatsoever.
>> >
>> > I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It's a 1221B rated for 120 volts.
> It's
>
>>had
>> > 128 volt pack on it for years. It was mounted without a heatsink until
> I
>> > bought it. I'd like to buy a Zilla 1k but I don't have $2k or 6 months
>>to
>> > wait. Anyone have a gently used 1231c laying around?
>> >
>> > Rich A.
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
>> >
>>http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp
> =33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863
> &encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
>> >
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Download Messenger. Join the i'm Initiative. Help make a difference today.
> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/4/07, Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark,
I didn't know he would sell a controller separately ( the only prices I
found were for a complete system)
What is the price for just a controller?
Is anyone using his equipment yet? Any comments on it?
Phil
There are a few comments on his stuff in the archives, and apparently
he is quick to respond, fast service and his products (or, at least,
his DC/DC converters) do exactly as advertised.
Some people have criticized that he takes a 24v tap from the battery
pack to power the controller boards.. honestly, since it only consumes
60mA I don't see the big deal! Let alone the value for the price. I
mean come on.. $2k for all of that in the package? I'll run the extra
wires!
Anyhoo, If you wanted to ask him for individual unit pricing, he has
his email on his website. I like the niche he is filling.. the
"workhorse" niche rather than the "performance" niche. He's not even
really competing with Otmar, since his controllers are 500A current
limited.
--Timothy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looking for a 2000 or newer EV minivan; or, someone
who want to make one, for BC.
This is a 7-passenger project. Looks like a 200V, 5000
lb. electric minivan. Got one to sell? Want to make
one for sale?
What's the cost?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet,
A few comments:
1) Yes, your odd/even pairs (like S1/S2, S3/S4, etc.) are always on and
off at the same time, so if you're doing this with contactors, you might
be able to use 5 double-pole contactors instead of 10 single-pole ones.
This would cut down on the number of 12V lines that you have to run.
2) One safety issue to be aware of is that this controller is set for
108V when the first 10 switches are OFF, which is their default state.
So if you ever accidentally connected the pack to the motor when the car
was stationary, you'd be throwing all 108V through R1 or S1.
3) Going along with #2, I'm assuming there's another switch in there
somewhere (either S0 or S12) that totally disconnects at least one side
of the battery pack from the motor
4) Is R1 a variable or fixed resistor?
5) You might consider using Shottkey diodes, since they have a lower
forward voltage drop, and thus would waste less power
Anyone chime in here if I've misstated anything.
Bill Dennis
Chet Fields wrote:
After following the latest contactor controller thread with great interest I am
seriously
considering building my own. I have come up with the following based on the
rectactor schematics
referred to in the previous links and my particular needs. I have 18 6V flooded
lead acid
batteries (Trojan TE-35). I was thinking of dividing them up into 18V _modules_
and connecting
them this way: (View with fixed font, Sorry my diodes don't look better. I did
the best I could ;)
S1 S3 S5 S7 S9
/ / / / /
-----/ --------/ --------/ --------/ --------/ ------------------- M+
| / | / | / | / | / |
| D1 / | D2 / | D3 / | D4 / | D5 / |
--- / --- / --- / --- / --- / ---
- \/ - \/ - \/ - \/ - \/ -
--- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- R1
- / - / - / - / - / - --/\/\/--|
| / | / | / | / | / | | |
|/ / |/ / |/ / |/ / |/ / | | / |
----/ --------/ --------/ --------/ --------/ -----------/ ------- M-
S2 S4 S6 S8 S10 S11
Step S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7 S8 S9 S10
S11
--------- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
1 (18V) ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON OFF
2 " ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON ON
ON
3 (36V) ON ON ON ON OFF OFF ON ON ON ON
OFF
4 " ON ON ON ON OFF OFF ON ON ON ON
ON
5 (54V) ON ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF OFF ON ON
OFF
6 " ON ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF OFF ON ON
ON
7 (108V) OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF
OFF
8 " OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF
ON
I was hoping that I could get a bit more specific advice in regards to which
components would be
appropriate for this arrangement. I was thinking of the LEV200. (Or any other
advice for that
matter) I would like to be good for about 400 amps max for under 10 second
bursts and the rest of
the time under 200 amps and more than likely around 100 amps continuous. I was
thinking that after
the 8th step I would have field weakening through some variable resistor. Or
should I have the
field weakening on every step?
In examining the chart with the steps I noticed that all of the contactors are
actuated in pairs.
Is there a particlar type that would have 2 sets of contacts actuated at the
same time? Is the
current actually increasing towards the right? Could you use less expensive
lower rated contactors
for the lower numbered ones?
And another thing, I am confused as to how Ohm's law applies to the contactors
in this
arrangement. How much voltage is across the contacts in the different
series/parallel
configurations? Do you look at how much voltage is there when they are open? I
would assume so as
there is very little voltage drop when they are closed.
And what value and type of resistor and diodes should be used?
Finally, if I wanted regen (I do have a SepEx motor), could I only get it at
18V? Could I hurt the
motor by just adjusting the field current? If I needed to regen at a higher
voltage is there a way
to change the configuration and still use more or less the same number of
components? Or should I
just bypass the whole thing and connect the full battery to the armature and
control the regen
with the field?
I appreciate any comments,
Chet Fields
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danger! Danger! I'm doing math! I'm inviting peer review on this one, I'm
generally not a math guy :).
First the assumption. As motor RPM goes up, effective motor impedence goes
up due to back EMF. With higher impedence, we can apply more voltage at the
same current. Since watts = volts times amps, that means we can pass more
watts at a given current limit at higher motor RPM, because we can apply
more volts (until we run out).
In terms of having power on tap at a given speed:
Car A & B are in their lowest gear, pulling away from a light at 20MPH.
Both are running Advance FB1-4001 motors and controllers set to max at 450
amps
Car A has a 2.5 to 1 first gear, Car B is direct drive
Both:
4 to 1 rear axle
25 inch tire (78.5" circumference)
Axle RPM = 270
Driveshaft RPM = 1080
Car A with no trans, motor RPM = 1080
Car B with a 2.5 to 1 1st gear, motor RPM = 2700 RPM
Both drivers floor it and are limited to 450 motor amps by their controller.
According to the FB1-4001 chart on page 185 of Bob Bryant's "Build your own
electric vehicle":
Car A, at a motor RPM of 1080 (extrapolated from 50% of the 2160 number),
will be supplying about 48 volts to the motor at 450 amps, 21,600 watts
available (28.9 horsepower)
Car B, at a motor RPM of 2700, will be supplying about 115 volts at 450
amps, 51,750 watts available (69.36 horsepower)
Not surprisingly, this means you're able to put about 2.5 times the wattage
to the rear wheels at the same controller current. There will be a large
performance difference with the same motor and controller.
Interestingly enough, if you add a second motor, wired in series, to car A,
you've got 43,200 watts available, still less than car B at the same motor
current draw.
For car A to keep up with car B at more moderate acceleration, it would need
to pass (very rough estimate based on extrapolation on the table)
Car B at 300 amps, 2700 RPM, 90 motor volts, 27000 watts available (36
horsepower)
Car A at 27000 watts, 1080 RPM, 642 amps at 42 motor volts (again
extrapolated since 642 amps is off the chart).
You just went from a $1400 Curtis controller to a $2000 Zilla to meet the
same moderate acceleration requirements.
I'd argue that what you've got here is a classic impedence matching problem.
The pack wants to deliver high volts, low current. From a rest, the motor
wants high current, low voltage. You need to do impedance matching. You
can do it in a transmission by bringing RPM up, or you can do it in the
controller by using narrow, high current pulses, which drives the cost of
the controller up. The cost of the controller is not linear with current
capability. So as your performance expectations go up, the transmission
looks relatively cheaper, even if it didn't come with the car.
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 1921 Milburn has been retrofitted with R/C snubbers across the motor I
believe. That could be an option.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:07 AM
To: EV
Subject: Re: Mechanical PWM Was: Building your own, Commercial Contactor
Maybe I'm being naive, but I would assume arc suppression to be rather
simple.
In fact I'm suprised that Bob came up with a rectactor but didn't hit on the
solution for arc suppression.
I'm not going to reveal what it is that I think would work, yet. First I
want those thinking about this to see if they come up with the same thought.
Research, and Think about what an electronic controller (EC) uses to prevent
"arcing" from destroying the FET's the first time they shut off. A
contactor/rectactor/drum/rotating-brush controller doesn't require this
device, but an EC would immediately die without one.
Please.. Roger, Lee, Rod, Rich and others who have designed controllers let
"them" think about this one for a while. Feel free to email me offlist to
explain why it won't work though!!
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chet Fields
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:24 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Mechanical PWM Was: Building your own, Commercial Contactor
>
> Actually, this idea has been kicked around a bit. Bob Rice just mentioned
> it
> in one of his posts a
> while back. He said he had arcing problems with it. James Massey also
> talked
> about it a few months
> back. I have also been curious about the idea and have been kicking ideas
> back and forth with Jim
> Husted. I don't know how many of us are really interested but it sounds
> like
> there might be a
> little more than casual interest. Sounds like there is some actual
> experience on the list as well.
> Would hate to have to invent the wheel all over again to find out that it
> won't work that well or
> what snaffoos we'd need to look out for.
>
> I think that article about the 75mpg hybrid in Mother Earth News isn't
> totally bogus. I would
> think that the thing actually works as described, although the performance
> specifications could be
> exagerated.
>
>
> --- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Well I'll be...
>>
>> I thought the idea came from my own twisted brain cells.
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Marty,
I have never push my accelerator on purpose to the floor, because I am scare
that I would break something which I did one time when my foot slip off the
break peddle onto the accelerator.
The motor coupler shear in half which was a large flange one that was turn
down engine crank shaft. The motor amp meter peg at 800 amps and had a lot
of battery post shrink back. The EV felt like it was hit in the back at 60
mph with a semi.
Leaving my manual transmission in final gear with a axle ratio of 5.57:1, I
can keep the motor ampere down below 500 amps at a normal acceleration and
it will come down to 300 amps at a speed of 30 mph.
I normally drive in 2nd gear which is a 13.5:1 overall ratio which I can
keep it at 125-150 motor amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Automatic or Manual?
> Danger! Danger! I'm doing math! I'm inviting peer review on this one,
> I'm
> generally not a math guy :).
>
> First the assumption. As motor RPM goes up, effective motor impedence
> goes
> up due to back EMF. With higher impedence, we can apply more voltage at
> the
> same current. Since watts = volts times amps, that means we can pass more
> watts at a given current limit at higher motor RPM, because we can apply
> more volts (until we run out).
>
> In terms of having power on tap at a given speed:
>
> Car A & B are in their lowest gear, pulling away from a light at 20MPH.
> Both are running Advance FB1-4001 motors and controllers set to max at 450
> amps
> Car A has a 2.5 to 1 first gear, Car B is direct drive
> Both:
> 4 to 1 rear axle
> 25 inch tire (78.5" circumference)
> Axle RPM = 270
> Driveshaft RPM = 1080
> Car A with no trans, motor RPM = 1080
> Car B with a 2.5 to 1 1st gear, motor RPM = 2700 RPM
>
> Both drivers floor it and are limited to 450 motor amps by their
> controller.
> According to the FB1-4001 chart on page 185 of Bob Bryant's "Build your
> own
> electric vehicle":
>
> Car A, at a motor RPM of 1080 (extrapolated from 50% of the 2160 number),
> will be supplying about 48 volts to the motor at 450 amps, 21,600 watts
> available (28.9 horsepower)
> Car B, at a motor RPM of 2700, will be supplying about 115 volts at 450
> amps, 51,750 watts available (69.36 horsepower)
>
> Not surprisingly, this means you're able to put about 2.5 times the
> wattage
> to the rear wheels at the same controller current. There will be a large
> performance difference with the same motor and controller.
>
> Interestingly enough, if you add a second motor, wired in series, to car
> A,
> you've got 43,200 watts available, still less than car B at the same motor
> current draw.
>
> For car A to keep up with car B at more moderate acceleration, it would
> need
> to pass (very rough estimate based on extrapolation on the table)
>
> Car B at 300 amps, 2700 RPM, 90 motor volts, 27000 watts available (36
> horsepower)
> Car A at 27000 watts, 1080 RPM, 642 amps at 42 motor volts (again
> extrapolated since 642 amps is off the chart).
>
> You just went from a $1400 Curtis controller to a $2000 Zilla to meet the
> same moderate acceleration requirements.
>
> I'd argue that what you've got here is a classic impedence matching
> problem.
> The pack wants to deliver high volts, low current. From a rest, the motor
> wants high current, low voltage. You need to do impedance matching. You
> can do it in a transmission by bringing RPM up, or you can do it in the
> controller by using narrow, high current pulses, which drives the cost of
> the controller up. The cost of the controller is not linear with current
> capability. So as your performance expectations go up, the transmission
> looks relatively cheaper, even if it didn't come with the car.
>
> Marty
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not too bullish on electric cars as the way of the future. Modern
electric cars go roughly 100 miles on a charge, about the same as my Baker;
so I don't see much progress there. I think electricity is a great power
source for a car. But the problem is, how do you get it?
Thomas Edison invented the alkaline battery. My Baker still has some
original alkaline batteries. These have lead plates and use acid; we wash
them out and refill them regularly and I'll use them indefinitely. But even
Edison realized the future of the automobile was elsewhere. Legend has it
that back in 1896, at a dinner party, he passed a note to his friend Henry
Ford. Essentially it said, "The electric car is dead."
How prophetic was that?
I can't believe Jay Leno (the ultimate car geek) compares a Baker Electric
to a Rav4 EV. They may have the same range but not the same speed or
convienences. I'm sure he's taken a ride in a Tzero or Tesla. He at times
acts like a spokesman for GM & then crows the 0 emmissions standard of his
steam car. He is so contrary sometimes I just don't understand his agenda.
Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Flakey
No, No! the pictured car is from the 1st issue! He was still
building his EV... he didn't get it till much later! issue 4 or 5...
may even have been a freakbrothers comix I saw it in(they had little
Mr Natural comix in them too)
---------------
Weeeell...
From the picture shown, Mr. Natural's car may well be an EV,
albeit of the MW/km category. Astute eyes will notice the enormous
frontal area (hubba hubba!) and "suspicious vapors" emitting from
tailpipe and radiator cock.
-just call me Flakey Foont.
> Didn't Mr Natural have a long white beard, drive an EV and run
> around naked in the park at the drop of a hat?
> I remember reading about electric cars in those pages somewhere!
the
> first time I ever heard about it!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
His agenda is really pretty simple.... Ratings!
But this is kin to political so, 'nuff said.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 12:22 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List;
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ETList; SFEVA;
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
>
> I'm not too bullish on electric cars as the way of the future. Modern
> electric cars go roughly 100 miles on a charge, about the same as my
> Baker;
> so I don't see much progress there. I think electricity is a great power
> source for a car. But the problem is, how do you get it?
>
> Thomas Edison invented the alkaline battery. My Baker still has some
> original alkaline batteries. These have lead plates and use acid; we wash
> them out and refill them regularly and I'll use them indefinitely. But
> even
> Edison realized the future of the automobile was elsewhere. Legend has it
> that back in 1896, at a dinner party, he passed a note to his friend Henry
> Ford. Essentially it said, "The electric car is dead."
>
> How prophetic was that?
>
>
> I can't believe Jay Leno (the ultimate car geek) compares a Baker Electric
> to a Rav4 EV. They may have the same range but not the same speed or
> convienences. I'm sure he's taken a ride in a Tzero or Tesla. He at
> times
> acts like a spokesman for GM & then crows the 0 emmissions standard of his
> steam car. He is so contrary sometimes I just don't understand his
> agenda.
> Lawrence Rhodes....
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For what it is it's got a good reputation. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:20 AM
Subject: Puka Minibike
Anyone own a Puka minibike.
Opinions ?
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C78CAB.F185A05F"
> Subject: Puka Minibike
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 06:20:52 -0500
> Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> X-MS-Has-Attach:
> X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Thread-Topic: Puka Minibike
> Thread-Index: AceMq/Fpgu39E2W9SfmjTr0AwHm4Jg==
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion Group--
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Suspension and weight distribution
> Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 09:02:48 -0400
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>
>
>
> >From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Suspension and weight distribution
> >Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:52:48 -0700
> >
> >John (and All),
> >I wouldn't try and change the front suspension, unless you are
considering
> >drop spindles (don't heat up the coils with a torch to drop the front!).
I
> >have four batteries located in the old radiator's location (in an angle
> >iron frame bolted to the truck frame), and two batteries above the motor,
> >also bolted to the truck frame (I would have eight under the hood, but I
> >kept the A/C!). I would consider four batteries under the hood as a
minimum
> >of battery weight up in front (removal of 425 pounds of 4.3L V6 infernal
> >combustion minus a 150 pound 9 incher, or 275 pounds divided by 70 pound
> >floodies equals four...). You can also run smaller tires on the front,
> >assuming this is two wheel drive like mine, which will shift more weight
> >forward for braking.
>
> I would think twice before changing to smaller diameter wheels on the
front.
> The fore and aft weight shift would be very small .
> And, it would make the front tires break away more easily during braking.
A
> smaller diameter wheel means that, for a given brake pedal pressure ( and,
a
> given braking torque on the wheel) the braking force of the tire on the
> pavement will be higher.
>
> This would make any brake imbalance ( due to too little weight on the
front
> axle) even worse. Taller tires on the back would similarly worsen the
brake
> imbalance.
>
> The best thing would be to make the weight distribution as close as you
can
> to stock. Or, at the least, don't reduce the weight on the front wheels.
>
>
> Phil
>
> In addition to shorter tires on the front, I put
> >taller tires on the back to help compensate for an inaccurate POS GM
> >speedo. And now that my truck is always pointed down hill, it coasts so
> >much better! As far as all the batteries in the bed for even
temperatures,
> >this is VERY IMPORTANT, which is why you should have poly boxes with
> >insulation (and/or battery heaters), one on each side of the drive shaft
> >with four each floodies (was this an extended cab short bed?), one behind
> >the rear-end with eight floodies, and eight floodies under the hood. So
> >you're on the least coast, and have talked to Bob Batson of EV's of
America
> >about S10 conversions? Having all the batteries in the bed is easier, but
> >is it safer (and can you peel the tires off the wheels in a corner!)?
> >Hope this helps,
> >Suck Amps...
> >50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
> >Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> >Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
> http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Pile of EV loot
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 07:11:38 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Hello Peter,
>
> The external hydraulic pump is normally use for starting out and moving at
1
> rpm or a very low rpm. Once your motor gets up to 500 rpm, then the
> transmission internal pump takes over and the external pump goes off line.
>
> Even if you stop for a red light, the pressure may be enough for you to
take
> off at a very low rpm. A limit switch should be use with this pump, where
> it will auto come on if you are stop for too long.
>
> If your vehicle was a manual shift with a clutch peddle, you can use that
> peddle with attach manual hydraulic piston that can pump up the pressure
> before starting out. I think one of the guys on this list use this
method.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:03 PM
> Subject: Pile of EV loot
>
>
> > Today one of my coworker said to me "You won't believe what I have in
> > the back of my truck!", we headed out to the parking lot and I found
> > myself staring slack yawed at a whole pile of prime EV parts.
> >
> > Apparently a friend of his dumped it on him, his friend was moving
> > shop and wanted him to sell it.
> >
> > After the drooling had diminished I made him an offer that I
> > considered only mildly insulting but still way below the value of the
> > parts. I'm now the owner of the following:
> >
> > Two nine inch Advanced DC motors and one adapter plate. One of the
> > motors seems to have been chromed at some point and is very shiny.
> > They look almost new and supposedly have very few miles on them, the
> > brushes are in good shape and I cant see any wear on the commutator.
> > One of the motors has motor mounts welded to the housing, they're
> > supposed to fit some truck, I forget which.
> >
> > Mounted to the chrome motor was a Datsun automatic transmission that
> > has been modified for EV operation. The tranny has connections for an
> > external hydraulic pump and the shift points have been changed to
> > better match the electric motor. It was explained to me that it
> > operates opposite to a regular automatic, it will normally run the
> > motor at high RPM and shift up when more torque is needed.
> >
> > I'm still undecided whether to use it in the Fiat or not. It looks
> > like the Datsun tranny is the same size and shape as the Fiat one so I
> > should be able to use the adapter plate either way.
> >
> > The advantage of an automatic is that anyone will be able to get in
> > the car, press the pedal and go. I don't have to explain how to handle
> > clutchless shifting or anything, this is especially good for my wife
> > who has never driven a stick. The Datsun tranny is also a lot more
> > robust than the fiat tranny.
> >
> > The disadvantage is the efficiency hit caused by the hydraulic pump
> > (which, by the way, was included).
> >
> > I also got a refurbished Curtis 1231 controller that has once belonged
> > to Ed Begley jr. The box had never been opened before.
> >
> > Last but not least, I got a vacuum pump for the brakes.
> >
> >
> >
> > My question to the list is regarding the tranny. It was modified by a
> > guy who used to be a transmission mechanic and who was involved in
> > many EV conversions so I have no doubt that it works. I'm more
> > concerned with the efficiency hit of the hydraulic pump, does anyone
> > have any idea how much power is needed to sustain the pressure?
> >
> > Any other thoughts and inputs on the topic would be nice.
> >
> >
> > I'll be selling one of the motors and possibly the tranny, pictures
> > can be found on my website.
> >
> > -Peter
> > --
> > www.electric-lemon.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bill.
So, perhaps NC type 2PST contactors should be used and I'll add another main
contactor and call it
S0. Is there a EV250B equivalent in 2PST?
S0
/
-----/ ---------- M+
|
| S1a S2a S3a S4a S5a
| / / / / /
-----/ --------/ --------/ --------/ --------/ ----
| / | / | / | / | / |
| D1 / | D2 / | D3 / | D4 / | D5 / |
--- / --- / --- / --- / --- / ---
- \/ - \/ - \/ - \/ - \/ -
--- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- \|\ --- R1
- / - / - / - / - / - --/\/\/--|
| / | / | / | / | / | | |
|/ / |/ / |/ / |/ / |/ / | | / |
----/ --------/ --------/ --------/ --------/ -----------/ ------- M-
S1b S2b S3b S4b S5b S6
For R1 I was thinking something like the KIF model RS9551 power resistor.
Except that the current
could theoretically be over 1000 Amps at low RPMs. Is this a problem? It's
rated at 170 Amps.
Should I put 2 in series? Or 6?
Chet
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chet,
> A few comments:
>
> 1) Yes, your odd/even pairs (like S1/S2, S3/S4, etc.) are always on and
> off at the same time, so if you're doing this with contactors, you might
> be able to use 5 double-pole contactors instead of 10 single-pole ones.
> This would cut down on the number of 12V lines that you have to run.
> 2) One safety issue to be aware of is that this controller is set for
> 108V when the first 10 switches are OFF, which is their default state.
> So if you ever accidentally connected the pack to the motor when the car
> was stationary, you'd be throwing all 108V through R1 or S1.
> 3) Going along with #2, I'm assuming there's another switch in there
> somewhere (either S0 or S12) that totally disconnects at least one side
> of the battery pack from the motor
> 4) Is R1 a variable or fixed resistor?
> 5) You might consider using Shottkey diodes, since they have a lower
> forward voltage drop, and thus would waste less power
>
> Anyone chime in here if I've misstated anything.
>
> Bill Dennis
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you find something they will let him run bring your son down to Ohio
to our shop and let's get it built !!!!
Maybe my 12 year lod son Trevor can help out as well. I've got lot's
of goodies laying around.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: FW: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
In light of receiving recent information, I would like to redirect the
below
comments to Denis Stanislaw.
Also with the appropriate amount of accolade going to Shawn for his
dedication,
inspiration and encouragement.
It goes beyond your shop.....
3 days, wow.
I have a 14 yr old son drooling about building something from
scratch... and
PoDC is just weeks away...
Is there a minimum age limit at the track, for other than Jr. Dragsters.
Can a 14yr old drive a bike, how about a Legends car? Will Hagerstown
let me run
a 50mph Elec-trak? ;-)
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
I read Shawn's post and thought.. "Hey cool! Way to go Shawn"
Then I read John's post and thought.. "HOLY SHIT!! Way to GO Shawn!!!"
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AGNS bike sets new NEDRA record
Hello Shawn and All,
Wow, congrats on the new record!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wednesday evening the Lawless Industries AGNS (All Go No Show)
motorcycle set a new NEDRA 72 volt record for the 1/8th mile of 8.86
seconds @ 77.11 MPH on good old fashion, 3 year old Hawker
AGM's....with a stiff head wind and 54 degree temp but the little
bike
didn't seem to mind on it's way to a 14.1 @ 87 mph 1/4 mile.
To put this into perspective, this little 72V bike ran a quicker 1/4
mile than an original 396 Chevelle big block muscle car. Here's
another
comparison....though today's low 12 second White Zombie runs the 1/8
mile in the mid-7s, in 2001 at the Las Vegas NEDRA drags the low 14
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, this is a new one: Alkaline battery that uses acid electrolyte. Some
instantaneous high energy there!
On Fri, 4 May 2007 10:29:22 -0600, Tim Humphrey wrote
> His agenda is really pretty simple.... Ratings!
>
> But this is kin to political so, 'nuff said.
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 12:22 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List;
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ETList; SFEVA;
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
> >
> > I'm not too bullish on electric cars as the way of the future. Modern
> > electric cars go roughly 100 miles on a charge, about the same as my
> > Baker;
> > so I don't see much progress there. I think electricity is a great power
> > source for a car. But the problem is, how do you get it?
> >
> > Thomas Edison invented the alkaline battery. My Baker still has some
> > original alkaline batteries. These have lead plates and use acid; we wash
> > them out and refill them regularly and I'll use them indefinitely. But
> > even
> > Edison realized the future of the automobile was elsewhere. Legend has it
> > that back in 1896, at a dinner party, he passed a note to his friend
Henry
> > Ford. Essentially it said, "The electric car is dead."
> >
> > How prophetic was that?
> >
> >
> > I can't believe Jay Leno (the ultimate car geek) compares a Baker
Electric
> > to a Rav4 EV. They may have the same range but not the same speed or
> > convienences. I'm sure he's taken a ride in a Tzero or Tesla. He at
> > times
> > acts like a spokesman for GM & then crows the 0 emmissions standard of
his
> > steam car. He is so contrary sometimes I just don't understand his
> > agenda.
> > Lawrence Rhodes....
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jeff and Randy.
also Inkscape and Dia are general-purpose Open Source drawing programs. IIRC Dia mimics MS Visio, Inkscape is a slick
little svg program.
I'll check on sourceforge in a while to see if there are any CAD programs and
to check on multi-OS compatibility.
I assume that ready-made electrical symbols would be necessary?
John
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I have no interest in starting any OS wars here, just some info for
those wanting to design circuit baords in the *nix environment.
Geda
http://www.geda.seul.org/
The gschem program seems a bit odd, not as user friendly but man it is
efficient and powerfull. It takes the sammy hagar touch: 1 hand on the
mouse 1 hand on the keyboard.
It is a suite of tools. There are a bunch of others but Geda seems to be
the most capable if a little odd.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Best way to approach gear box/motor selection is to have
motor "characteristic" curves. These are a family of curves showing
tractive effort(TE) versus RPM, voltage, and field weakening. On a series
motor, you will notice that the TE drops off rapidly above base speed, on an
approximate constant horsepower curve. You will determine that even though
a particular motor can go to a high RPM, there is insufficient TE to
overcome wind resistance or grade. That is why gear shifting or field
weakening is required to move the motor back down on its TE curve where more
torque is available.
The equations for forces resistant to motion are simple, and probably
available in software, does anyone know? The motor curves are published by
the motor manufacturer. The problem here, is that a manufacturer does not
rate a 36v motor to be run on 96v, for example, or to 4x rated current, so a
little extrapolation may be needed.
On Fri, 4 May 2007 10:31:06 -0500, Marty Hewes wrote
> Danger! Danger! I'm doing math! I'm inviting peer review on this
> one, I'm generally not a math guy :).
>
> First the assumption. As motor RPM goes up, effective motor
> impedence goes up due to back EMF. With higher impedence, we can
> apply more voltage at the same current. Since watts = volts times
> amps, that means we can pass more watts at a given current limit at
> higher motor RPM, because we can apply more volts (until we run out).
>
> In terms of having power on tap at a given speed:
>
> Car A & B are in their lowest gear, pulling away from a light at 20MPH.
> Both are running Advance FB1-4001 motors and controllers set to max
> at 450 amps Car A has a 2.5 to 1 first gear, Car B is direct drive Both:
> 4 to 1 rear axle
> 25 inch tire (78.5" circumference)
> Axle RPM = 270
> Driveshaft RPM = 1080
> Car A with no trans, motor RPM = 1080
> Car B with a 2.5 to 1 1st gear, motor RPM = 2700 RPM
>
> Both drivers floor it and are limited to 450 motor amps by their
controller.
> According to the FB1-4001 chart on page 185 of Bob Bryant's "Build
> your own electric vehicle":
>
> Car A, at a motor RPM of 1080 (extrapolated from 50% of the 2160
> number), will be supplying about 48 volts to the motor at 450 amps,
> 21,600 watts available (28.9 horsepower) Car B, at a motor RPM of
> 2700, will be supplying about 115 volts at 450 amps, 51,750 watts
> available (69.36 horsepower)
>
> Not surprisingly, this means you're able to put about 2.5 times the
> wattage to the rear wheels at the same controller current. There
> will be a large performance difference with the same motor and controller.
>
> Interestingly enough, if you add a second motor, wired in series, to
> car A, you've got 43,200 watts available, still less than car B at
> the same motor current draw.
>
> For car A to keep up with car B at more moderate acceleration, it
> would need to pass (very rough estimate based on extrapolation on
> the table)
>
> Car B at 300 amps, 2700 RPM, 90 motor volts, 27000 watts available
> (36 horsepower) Car A at 27000 watts, 1080 RPM, 642 amps at 42
> motor volts (again extrapolated since 642 amps is off the chart).
>
> You just went from a $1400 Curtis controller to a $2000 Zilla to
> meet the same moderate acceleration requirements.
>
> I'd argue that what you've got here is a classic impedence matching
> problem. The pack wants to deliver high volts, low current. From a
> rest, the motor wants high current, low voltage. You need to do
> impedance matching. You can do it in a transmission by bringing RPM
> up, or you can do it in the controller by using narrow, high current
> pulses, which drives the cost of the controller up. The cost of the
> controller is not linear with current capability. So as your
> performance expectations go up, the transmission looks relatively
> cheaper, even if it didn't come with the car.
>
> Marty
--- End Message ---
