EV Digest 6745
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Over voltage in a pack
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Jay Leno no friend of electric cars.
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 120 V / 80 AH Flooded Pack using 0.08 V per mile
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) higher voltage alt fields, Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Why I got the batteries that I did
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EVs at Chabot College Open House this Saturday, May 12
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Breaking in a new pack
by "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Over voltage in a pack
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) motor wiring
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EV Drag Racing Ideas
by Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Drag Racing Ideas
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Breaking in a new pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: EV Drag Racing Ideas
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Frank John wrote:
This m-cycle has a 36 VDC nominal pack - could I use a rheostat with
larger resistance range but full pack input voltage to adjust field
current? Or would I be better off just tapping off a single 12 volt
battery?
Both work; you just have to somehow be sure the alternator's field
current doesn't exceed what it would have gotten if tied directly to 12v.
If you want to power the field from your 36v pack, I'd
a) Measure the field resistance. For example, 6 ohms.
b) Calculate the field current at 12v. For example,
I = V/R = 12v / 6 ohms = 2 amps.
c. Use a rheostat or resistor whose minimum resistance is enough
to keep the maximum field current to this current. For example,
a 36v pack means 24v across the resistor and 12v across the field.
R = V/I = 36v / 2a = 18 ohms.
Note that for short-term operation (seconds), you can apply 2 or 3 times
the field current to briefly get 2 or 3 times the regen current. Don't
do it for more than a short time, or you'll burn out the field winding.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
why do faster, more powerful motors all have higher voltage
ratings? It is because you can send more power for less amps
drawn, and thus get more flowing over the same wires because of
V=IR. Which is why power transmission lines are at huge voltages.
Precisely, it's easier and cheaper to build controllers with higher
voltage than it is with higher current, plus you don't need huge
wires. This means that higher voltage motors are more popular than
lower voltage ones that can handle higher current. Plus they tend to
be lighter/ easier to build since they can use thinner wire which is
easier to fill your (motor) slots with.
What is being said here is partially true, though the explanations being
given are pretty fuzzy.
1. Yes, the higher the design horsepower, the higher the voltage.
But "Faster, more powerful motors" are not always higher voltage.
At any given horsepower level, there is at least a 10:1 range of
practical voltages it can be designed for. Efficiency and
performance over this range will only change on the order of 1%.
For example, you can find 1hp motors with virtually identical
performance from 12v to 120v; or 10hp motors from 36v to 360v;
or 100hp motors from 100v to 1000v.
2. Transmission lines use very high voltages because they are
moving power over vast distances (miles)! The distance between
an EV's batteries and motor seldom exceeds 20 feet. Thus voltage
drop in the wiring is a trivial issue, and unlikely to be even
1-2% of the total.
3. No, it's not necessarily "easier and cheaper" to build things for
higher voltages. For any given power level and technology, there
is a broad range of voltages and current that produce nearly the
same results. At the moment, a 10hp drive system for an EV can be
anything from 48v to 480v with very little change in cost or ease
of use.
4. No matter what voltage you wind a motor for, the wire is always
sized to fill the winding space as fully as possible. This is why
the performance is unchanged when you rewind a motor for different
voltages. This is true until the voltage is so low that you need
less than 1 turn, or until the voltage is so high that most of the
slot needs to be filled with insulation rather than wire.
I was interested in... mitigating the limitations of lower voltage
systems by deliberately running at 'over voltage' on the battery
side, then having the controller chop things down to 144v, perhaps
through a DC/DC.
Let's assume we want a single-ratio drive system. Then the
motor+controller needs to be able to deliver "high" torque over most of
the speed range; say 0-60 mph.
Now let's say we want to use a series DC motor. Its characteristics are
to produce very high torque at low speed, and very low torque at high
speed. The only way to get it to produce "high" torque over a wide speed
range is to keep the controller in its current limit mode over this range.
One way to do this is to provide an unusually high pack voltage. For
example, a 300v pack with a 100v motor. The controller will always be
stepping the voltage down, so the motor never really does see 300v
(average). But it might see 200v (average) at 60 mph. If you go faster
than this, the battery-side current limit would take effect (i.e. you
can't get enough battery power to go faster at this motor current).
I might be wrong about the brushes seeing the pack voltage as an
instantaneous voltage versus the average voltage.
A PWM controller applies a square wave to the motor. The motor's field
inductance smooths out most of this before it gets to the brushes, but
there is still quite a bit of AC there. With lots of extra insulation
and attention to detail, people have successfully run ADC motors up well
past 200v. I seem to recall Paul Compton writing about running Clare
Bell's Porsche 914 this way.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lawrence> Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH patent & is squashing large format
Lawrence> batteries.
Just curious, how much longer before the key patents they hold expire?
Which one?
http://www.google.com/patents?q=Ovshinsky+nimh&btnG=Search+Patents
Patents are granted for 17 years, so pick your patent and add 17 to
it. Ovshinsky has a lot of patents in the area of NiMH batteries, and
some are quite recent.
The SEC documentation about the NiMH settlement with Ovonics is at:
http://www.ovonic.com/PDFs/Financial_Reports/form_8k/8k_mbi_patent_infringe_settlement_7july04.pdf
But unfortunately it does not name a particular patent as having been
infringed upon.
But I quote from that documentation:
==>
Under the terms of the settlement, ECD, Ovonic Battery, Cobasys and MEI, PEVE,
Toyota have entered into an agreement pursuant to which the parties
have cross-licensed
current and future patents related to NiMH batteries filed through
December 31, 2014, effective
upon the date of settlement. The licenses granted by ECD, Ovonic
Battery and Cobasys do not
grant rights to MEI, PEVE or Toyota to use the licensed patents to (i)
offer for sale certain NiMH
batteries for certain transportation applications in North America
until after June 30, 2007 or (ii)
sell commercial quantities of certain transportation and certain
stationary power NiMH batteries
in North America until after June 30, 2010.
Further, under the terms of the settlement, Cobasys and PEVE have agreed to a
technical cooperation arrangement, including access to suppliers, to
advance the state-of-the-
art of NiMH batteries, which are widely used in hybrid electric
vehicles (HEVs). Cobasys and
PEVE have also agreed to collaborate on the development of
next-generation high-performance
NiMH batteries for HEVs. In addition to manufacturing their own line
of NiMH batteries,
Cobasys will be the distributor of PEVE's NiMH batteries to certain
markets in North America
through June 30, 2010.
<==
So, the block extends until next month, with Cobasys being the sole
North American distributor for 3 years after that. No indication of
necessary royalty payments, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
any.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately it has become commonplace to exploit loopholes in patent
laws where a holder will make a small variation on their product whose
patent is ready to expire and repatent it, somehow keeping rights to the
original product as related to their new one. I'm not clear on exactly
how that happens. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Danny
Jorg Brown wrote:
On 5/5/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lawrence> Chevron/Texaco has the NiMH patent & is squashing large
format
Lawrence> batteries.
Just curious, how much longer before the key patents they hold expire?
Which one?
http://www.google.com/patents?q=Ovshinsky+nimh&btnG=Search+Patents
Patents are granted for 17 years, so pick your patent and add 17 to
it. Ovshinsky has a lot of patents in the area of NiMH batteries, and
some are quite recent.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, absolutely. I'd meant to say that, but got sidetracked and forgot.
Thanks :-)
>> You need to measure Amp Hours per mile to calculate WH/mile.
>
> Actually, I'd go one further and state that one needs to measure kWh and
> distance travelled to calculate Wh/mi. Ah still only gives you a
> ballpark estimate since you don't know just how low your batteries
> really sagged when you accelerated from that last light, etc.
>
> If you know Ah and distance, you can calculate Ah/mi which isn't all
> that useful on its own. For lead acid batteries that aren't being
> flogged too badly you can convert this to an estimate of the Wh/mi by
> multiplying by the nominal pack voltage.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it were me, I'd build a new 36V regulator.
If you google around a bit you can find articles on building 24V and 36V
regulators for standard car alternators
> <
> You don't connect the field to the (now) high voltage alternator output;
> you connect it to the 12v battery (usually through a rheostat). You
> manually adjust the field current to get the desired output voltage.
> This is how those cheap "120v from a car alternator" converters work.
>>
>
> This m-cycle has a 36 VDC nominal pack - could I use a rheostat with
> larger resistance range but full pack input voltage to adjust field
> current? Or would I be better off just tapping off a single 12 volt
> battery?
>
> thanks,
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
Most older american car, truck alts can have
field for 24-32-36vdc just by replacing rotor. They can be
found at any really good starter/alt shop that works with
trucks, marine alts.
If really ambitious, you can press out the shaft
and wind your own field to whatever you want., the press it
back together.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cheap regen/DC-DC eliminator
Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 02:49:23 -0700 (MST)
>If it were me, I'd build a new 36V regulator.
>
>If you google around a bit you can find articles on
>building 24V and 36V regulators for standard car
>alternators
>
>> <
>> You don't connect the field to the (now) high voltage
>> alternator output; you connect it to the 12v battery
>> (usually through a rheostat). You manually adjust the
>> field current to get the desired output voltage. This is
>how those cheap "120v from a car alternator" converters
>>>work.
>>
>> This m-cycle has a 36 VDC nominal pack - could I use a
>> rheostat with larger resistance range but full pack input
>> voltage to adjust field current? Or would I be better
>> off just tapping off a single 12 volt battery?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>___________________________________________________________
>> _________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick
>> in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime
>> shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
>legalistic junk at the end; then you are specifically
>authorizing me to do whatever I wish with the message. By
>posting the message you agree that your long legalistic
>signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, I did but 12 V / 80 AH (at 20 hr rate) flooded
batteries. You say ... marine batteries ... I say
... well I guess they are (but the highest grade
Starting / Deep Cycle Marine batteries you can buy).
So why?
I see it like this Optimas are $170 / ea and they are
only 50 Ah. Sure they can put out 800 - 1000 CCA, but
my controller is only 550 A. My new batteries have
650 CCA. So acceleration performance is no different.
Cycle life - they have a 1 year free replacement and 2
year pro rated warranty. So, I'm not worried there.
Capacity. Rated 80 AH. Maybe I'll get 40 AH usable.
Still not much worse than Optimas.
Weight. My car just can't take the weight. The
second best option is flooded golf 8 V golf cart
batteries. That was about 30% more expensive and I
only estimates a 18 - 20 mile range, less performance,
more weight, and nearly breaking the suspension on the
car. It had 13 in there originally, running 104 V.
Is that really better than my 10 x 12 V Marine
batteries? Time will tell. I can say for sure that
the performance is much better now, and I only needed
an 8 mile range.
So, did I make a mistake? Not sure. Time will tell.
Thoughts?
Steve
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
East Bay EAA Members and other local EVers,
This Saturday we have been invited to participate with
the Chabot College Automotive Department with
displaying some EVs (up to 12).
http://www.chabotcollege.edu/openhouse/events.htm
Free BBQ and other activities.
Setup begins at 7am and it lasts most of the day. Hope
to have some Sparrows, NEVs, conversions and others
participate.
Please contact me or Stephen to coordinate.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
EBEAA Secretary
www.ebeaa.org
--- Stephen Small <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:56:40 -0800
> From: "Stephen Small"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: EBEAA Meeting - this Saturday Jan 27,
> 2007 10-12 in
> Alameda
>
> Ed,
> Speaking of electric cars, we here at Chabot in
> conjunction with the
> Automotive Service Council of California (Chapter
> 16) are having a car
> show on May 12, 2007. This will be in conjunction
> with the Chabot MEGA
> day and open house. Would your group like to have
> some cars on display?
> Let me know. It would be a great opportunity to
> show off the electric
> cars you guys have.
>
> Stephen Small
> Chabot Auto Tech
> 510-723-6855
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RELISTED
A recent entry talked about breaking in a new battery pack. Since my
conversion won't be up and running for a couple of months, I thought it a
good idea to wait on the battery order (16 x US-125's) until just before
they are needed.
Based upon the "break-in" recommendations, I wonder if it might be a good
idea to get the pack now and rig up some sort of "soft break-in" setup, such
as an electrical heater that won't tax the pack too much.
Would running them through several easy charge/discharge cycles be a good
idea to get them broken in for road use? Any suggestions, recommendations or
experience?
/Roger Daisley, Pullman, WA
Ps: See you at the Wenatchee "PowerUp."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMO, lacking more affordable battery tech., EVs should be purpose built to
their intended use. I think it's senseless and expensive to design in as
much range as possible if your specific needs are well under 50% of that.
I've yet to get my EV on the road, but I'm leaning heavily toward the same
idea of keeping cost and weight down for a range that leaves me perhaps 5-10
more miles than I need to 80% DOD over my 5 mile commute. Based on the
typical 800lbs/gal of gas estimate, I should have that and more with just
500lbs of lead acid, and have plenty of performance for the flat land upon
which it will be driven. As such, the suspension of my car can be kept
stock with a curb weight barely 100-200lbs over stock.
-
Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:13 AM
Subject: Why I got the batteries that I did
So, I did but 12 V / 80 AH (at 20 hr rate) flooded
batteries. You say ... marine batteries ... I say
... well I guess they are (but the highest grade
Starting / Deep Cycle Marine batteries you can buy).
So why?
I see it like this Optimas are $170 / ea and they are
only 50 Ah. Sure they can put out 800 - 1000 CCA, but
my controller is only 550 A. My new batteries have
650 CCA. So acceleration performance is no different.
Cycle life - they have a 1 year free replacement and 2
year pro rated warranty. So, I'm not worried there.
Capacity. Rated 80 AH. Maybe I'll get 40 AH usable.
Still not much worse than Optimas.
Weight. My car just can't take the weight. The
second best option is flooded golf 8 V golf cart
batteries. That was about 30% more expensive and I
only estimates a 18 - 20 mile range, less performance,
more weight, and nearly breaking the suspension on the
car. It had 13 in there originally, running 104 V.
Is that really better than my 10 x 12 V Marine
batteries? Time will tell. I can say for sure that
the performance is much better now, and I only needed
an 8 mile range.
So, did I make a mistake? Not sure. Time will tell.
Thoughts?
Steve
__________________________________________________
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9:01 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
So, did I make a mistake? Not sure. Time will tell.
Maybe... its depends on what your time is worth.
I see it like this Optimas are $170 / ea and they are
Purchased from the right dealer in bulk, Optima YTs (Group 34) should be
about $99-$110 each. The Group 31 are much more expensive, at about
$160/each.
only 50 Ah. Sure they can put out 800 - 1000 CCA, but
my controller is only 550 A. My new batteries have
650 CCA. So acceleration performance is no different.
CCA is a weak measurement of battery performance, and not a good way to
compare two batteries. CCA is subject to a lot of marketing hype and
manufacturers play games with the numbers. You are correct that the
Optima offerd more performance than your controller will be able to
leverage.
Cycle life - they have a 1 year free replacement and 2
year pro rated warranty. So, I'm not worried there.
You might find some issues with that. Odds are they are not technically
warrantied for on-road use. A lot of "cheap" batteries have good
warranties. The manufacturer is assuming you won't go through the effort
of returning the battery for a refund. Sometimes the return process is,
lets say, involved.
A number of listers have tried Walmart branded golf cart batteries in
their cars. Even though they come with a 1 year free replacement, most
people were pretty unsatisfied with them. A battery will fail every
week or two, and replacing them is a hassle. Plus, if you don't notice
one has failed it drags down the others, shortening their lives. You
might get good range today, but odds are good it will fall quickly, and
batteries will start to fail.
Capacity. Rated 80 AH. Maybe I'll get 40 AH usable.
Still not much worse than Optimas.
True, but most flooded batteries will have better storage capacity than
an AGM. You need to compare apples to apples.
Weight. My car just can't take the weight.
Maybe. Depends on the car. 1500lbs of batteries in a Geo Metro has
been done, with the addition of airbags to the suspension. Good
conversions are a bit of an art form, and the challenge is harder with
vehicles that are much larger or smaller than average.
The
second best option is flooded golf 8 V golf cart
batteries. That was about 30% more expensive
Your battery prices seem to be running quite high. You should be able
to purchase 6v golf car (Trojan or US Battery) for about $60-70/each, 8v
should only be a few dollars more.
I think you are going to be dissatisfied, but your requirements are
mild, so it might work out. Write us back in 6 months.
BTW, (tongue firmly in cheek) the best time to ask a bunch of knowledge
individuals for advice is _before_ you make the purchase.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Steve Powers wrote:
So, I did but 12 V / 80 AH (at 20 hr rate) flooded
batteries. You say ... marine batteries ... I say
... well I guess they are (but the highest grade
Starting / Deep Cycle Marine batteries you can buy).
You probably should have looked into the EV archives, as this subject is
well covered.
I see it like this Optimas are $170 / ea and they are
only 50 Ah. Sure they can put out 800 - 1000 CCA, but
my controller is only 550 A. My new batteries have
650 CCA. So acceleration performance is no different.
With just a little searching, you can find Optimas for considerably less
than that, closer to $125-$130 each. Locally here in the Portland metro
area, you can get the bigger group 31 Optimas for $175 each. As to the
ahr rating, they're also 55 ahr, not 50...50 is what the Exide Orbital
is rated at. Continuing on....there's a HUGE difference between 800 cca
and 650....HUGE! In EV terms, this means considerably less voltage sag
under load, which translates into a higher voltage pack while
accelerating at a given current, which translates into BIG improvements
in acceleration and hill-climbing power.
Again, its been written about over and over...in my own small and light
car, Blue Meanie, way back in late '94 when it too, was at 144V and only
sporting a 450 amp controller, I switched from 105 ahr marine style wet
cells to prototype Optimas...Yikes, what a dramatic difference! With the
larger, heavier and far wimpier wet cells, the pack would sag to about
95 volts under full acceleration...with the Optimas? There was a stout
120 volts under full pedal! That extra 15 hp was very noticeable in the
2250 lb. car!
Though your wet cell 80 ahr batteries are rated at 650 cca, they will
not repeatably be able to deliver that kind of current without plate
warpage and battery deterioration. The Optimas on the other hand, love
high currents, are designed to give those kind of currents, and will do
so every day without complaining...do this to those marine / RV
batteries and you'll be throwing them away in a couple of months.
Cycle life - they have a 1 year free replacement and 2
year pro rated warranty. So, I'm not worried there.
They'll probably honor the warranty the first time you return in 4-5
months with worn-out batteries, after that, they'll figure out a way to
not keep replacing them under the abuse your EV will be putting them
through. My RV style batteries were pretty much wasted in 6 months. The
Optimas? They typically went 3-4 years under the intermittent type
driving the car had. The cycle life of those wet cell 12V batteries
plummets when discharged at EV currents and EV depth of discharges.
I just pulled the 6 year old Optimas from Blue Meanie, not a bit of
corrosion anywhere, the cases and terminals still look new. True, this
car doesn't get driven every day in a commute situation, but it did see
1000 amps discharges all the time, and there's probably 400-450 cycles
on the batteries.
Capacity. Rated 80 AH. Maybe I'll get 40 AH usable.
Still not much worse than Optimas.
When I switched from 12, 105 ahr wet cell 12V batteries to the 12
Optimas, my car's range was about the same, 20-23 miles or so. Pretty
amazing, since I went from 105 ahr batteries to 65 ahr batteries (the
optimistic 65 ahr rating of subsequent production Optimas was later
lowered to a more reasonable 55 ahrs) When the car's pack was upped to
13 of them @ 156V, the range was about 25 miles. I 'did' squeeze 31
miles one time on a hot summer day driving about 40 mph, but that was a
pretty deep discharge!
So, did I make a mistake? Not sure.
In terms of how you assessed battery ratings and capabilities,
definitely. If price was the main criteria and you got the wet cell 12
volters for $75 each or so (I just got into this thread and missed any
previous posts) and if you are not expecting anything more than
occasional 200-300 amps draws, than probably not. At low currents and
low depth of discharges, you'll get 'OK' performance from the batteries
you chose and they might last a year and a half. If you want to have
fun and put the pedal down often, or if you have to pull grades that
require heavy currents, you would have been far better off with a set of
Optimas, Orbitals, or Hawkers.
Historically, most everyone has had miserable experiences with the same
type of batteries you chose, and most everyone who's gone from them to
Optimas, never looked back.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are these pure electric or hybrid? I'm asking because I've been asked to
convert a Mini Cooper to pure electric. I'm trying to ascertain whether it
is practical for the range desired.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:45 PM
Subject: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
There is a part about 3/4 through the video where she gets on the
throttle that's pretty neat:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=51
The motor sounds good, plus an under hood shot:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=50
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Precisely, it's easier and cheaper to build controllers with higher
> voltage than it is with higher current, plus you don't need huge
...
In the AC world (mostly occupied by industrial VFD's but also
AC traction systems) you also have systems in a few
voltage categories. You have the 208V/230V drives,
which use a 330 to 400V DC bus voltage, and the higher
voltage stuff (480V and 600V). All of these will use
IGBT's and not MOSFETs.
The kicker with IGBT's is they have a substantially constant
voltage drop (typically 2 to 3 volts). So the lower the current
(and higher the supply voltage) the less loss you get in a
controller using IGBT's. Also, current levels under 300A or so
are relatively easy (?) to deal with, as the current levels
exceed maybe 400A or so, things start to get really wierd.
Or basically, on an AC VFD, things are fairly straightforward
below around 60kW when running a 400V bus voltage.
Running low voltage, high current systems would typically
use massive numbers of MOSFET's which are a pain in the
bottom to hook all together. In this case, a higher voltage,
lower current system is easier for the controller manufacturer
to put together.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a GE motor. 5BC58J****
It is the snowthrower motor from an Elec-trak. I was under the impression that
this was strictly a series wound motor but the way it is wired has me confused.
Before I tear it apart, I'll ask.....
It has the 4 bolts in pairs 180deg from each other, down by the commutator end.
Easy enough, right. They are not labelled, I am assuming the two most back are
the Arm bolts and the two inward are the Field bolts. (standard series motor
configuration). There is a fifth bolt up by the drive end.
A1 and F1 are strapped together, A2 and F2 are strapped together. The battery
is connected to one of the A/F bolts and the fifth bolt. Reversing polarity
does NOT reverse drive direction. Removing one of the A/F straps and connecting
the battery to an A and an F does nothing.
The A's and F's are my designations, based on the series motors I've seen...
there are no labels on this motor.
Any ideas as to what I have.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Converting a modern cooper would be a challenge, the electronic
systems on the car are all computer controlled and tied to each other
and very complex, the curb weight is high relative to the space for
batteries. Simple tinkering with this car can result in blowing a
main body ecu. FYI Remember it's a modern BMW not a honda or toyota.
On May 8, 2007, at 6:54 AM, joe wrote:
Are these pure electric or hybrid? I'm asking because I've been
asked to convert a Mini Cooper to pure electric. I'm trying to
ascertain whether it is practical for the range desired.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:45 PM
Subject: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
There is a part about 3/4 through the video where she gets on the
throttle that's pretty neat:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=51
The motor sounds good, plus an under hood shot:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=50
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/8/07, joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are these pure electric or hybrid? I'm asking because I've been asked to
convert a Mini Cooper to pure electric. I'm trying to ascertain whether it
is practical for the range desired.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Previous comments in this group would indicate that its neither pure
electric nor hybrid, its pure vapor :)
but you never know...
-kert
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Good thinking, and the gassers are doing some of this already. I see motorcycle
racers at my local road racing track wrapping their tires with electrically
heated tire covers. Autocrossers sometimes put insulating tire covers to hold
heat in their tires between runs. You'd still want to do a little burnout to
clean the tires.
#2, automating your launch, is illegal in drag racing.
Lots of serious drag racers use skinny front wheels for less rolling resistance
and less weight. I'm surprised more EVers don't do this for better range.
----- Original Message ----
From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:52:00 AM
Subject: EV Drag Racing Ideas
Okay, I've been thinking up ways to improve an EV Drag Racer's Performance:
1) Instead of doing a 'burnout' on the tires just before the race (which is
done I believe to heat up the tires for a stickier contact surface), heat the
tires electrically.
Method: buy or make strips of heat resistant fabric with electric wiring
embedded in it (like an electric blanket, but for higher temperatures). Wrap
the tires in the fabric and heat in a controlled manner to the perfect
temperature using an offboard electric source. Just before race, remove
wrapping for toasty warm tires.
Benefits: 1) no air pollution from 'burnout', 2) controlled temperature
for ideal stickyness, 3) no loss of car's battery capacity from 'burnout'.
2) Install camera in car to identify when the light turns green.
Method: buy a digital video-camera and mount it in the car. Orient the
camera to zoom in on the lights. Setup a program that identifies when the
picture in the camera has a high green content to automatically start the car.
Benefits: 1) fast reaction time, 2) no jumping the gun.
3) Low Rolling Resistance front tires.
Benefits: Less drag on non-powered tires improves performance.
That's it! Am I crazy, or do any of these ideas have merit?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Roger,
I found it was best for me, to order the batteries factory fresh which I got
in two weeks from the factory. Make sure they have all the same battery
date on them. Not some that were taken out some warehouse that have been
setting for 9 months with no maintainers.
Talking to a Trojan battery engineer, he said it takes about 100 discharge
and charge cycles to bring the battery up to 100 percent. What happens is
when the negative grids get pasted with sponge lead that is mix with h2so4,
and the positive grids get pasted with sponge oxide lead, the plate surface
gets layer like shingles.
If you do high ampere discharges, this may blow these overlapping surfaces
off as particles, that then built up at the bottom of the battery cell. At
first with a new battery, you have mainly a surface charge and when you do
light discharges and charges, this opens the overlapping surfaces and
created more deep passages and surface areas.
There is other battery grid designs, mainly in industrial batteries that
have a surface that is form like a radiator, which has a greater surface
area to start with. Exide makes a Tudor battery that is form like this.
100 cycles took me two years to complete, because I only charge the battery
pack about once a week pulling out 50 AH out of a 260 AH pack. The E-meter
still read about 80% charge. Only charge at 10 percent of the amp-hour
rating of the battery or about 26-30 amps during this time. After the first
100 cycles, then Trojan said to go to 36 amps maximum for my T-145's for the
longest life, but sometimes I may take it to 50 amps.
During the first 100 cycles, my maximum motor ampere is held to 200 amps and
battery amperes to 40-50 amps. Most of my driving is at a 15 mph average
which is the average maximum speed limit in city and in a shopping and
industrial park which all the parking lots are all connected together for 3
miles.
I will normally run back home on a road that is down hill all the way and
with speeds up to 45 mph which my battery ampere running around 50 amps in
some areas.
For the first five miles, check your battery connection torque, as where the
lead will shrink a little on the first run. I found my shrink from 75 inch
lbs to 70 inch lbs on the first 5 miles. My battery post are standard auto
post with a stud on top. Latter I modified the battery clamp that goes
around the post. I install it pressing all the way down pressing against the
base of the lead bar which the post is setting on.
This gives me more surface area. Also I also install a stainless steel
washer, lock washer and nut on the top stud, so as to further press the
battery post down on to the base. I was able to torque this stud at a much
greater force, which cause expansion of the post, make it surfaces tighter
to the battery clamp.
The battery clamp being shorter than the post, I install a lead washer make
out of pure lead from a roll of lead that you can get from a fishing store.
Without this clamping method, I notice, that the battery post wound start to
mushroom out the top of the battery post, which this method now prevents
this, and I never have to retighten them in the last four years.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Breaking in a new pack
> RELISTED
> A recent entry talked about breaking in a new battery pack. Since my
> conversion won't be up and running for a couple of months, I thought it a
> good idea to wait on the battery order (16 x US-125's) until just before
> they are needed.
>
> Based upon the "break-in" recommendations, I wonder if it might be a good
> idea to get the pack now and rig up some sort of "soft break-in" setup,
> such
> as an electrical heater that won't tax the pack too much.
>
> Would running them through several easy charge/discharge cycles be a good
> idea to get them broken in for road use? Any suggestions, recommendations
> or
> experience?
>
> /Roger Daisley, Pullman, WA
> Ps: See you at the Wenatchee "PowerUp."
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind... I've never drag raced, but I have watched and read about drag
racing.
As I understand it, if you wait for the green light to come on, you're too late.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Dymaxion
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:20 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: EV Drag Racing Ideas
>
> Good thinking, and the gassers are doing some of this already. I see
> motorcycle racers at my local road racing track wrapping their tires with
> electrically heated tire covers. Autocrossers sometimes put insulating
> tire
> covers to hold heat in their tires between runs. You'd still want to do a
> little burnout to clean the tires.
>
> #2, automating your launch, is illegal in drag racing.
>
> Lots of serious drag racers use skinny front wheels for less rolling
> resistance and less weight. I'm surprised more EVers don't do this for
> better range.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 7:52:00 AM
> Subject: EV Drag Racing Ideas
>
>
> Okay, I've been thinking up ways to improve an EV Drag Racer's
> Performance:
>
> 1) Instead of doing a 'burnout' on the tires just before the race (which
> is done I believe to heat up the tires for a stickier contact surface),
> heat
> the tires electrically.
> Method: buy or make strips of heat resistant fabric with electric
> wiring
> embedded in it (like an electric blanket, but for higher temperatures).
> Wrap the tires in the fabric and heat in a controlled manner to the
> perfect
> temperature using an offboard electric source. Just before race, remove
> wrapping for toasty warm tires.
> Benefits: 1) no air pollution from 'burnout', 2) controlled
> temperature
> for ideal stickyness, 3) no loss of car's battery capacity from 'burnout'.
>
> 2) Install camera in car to identify when the light turns green.
> Method: buy a digital video-camera and mount it in the car. Orient
> the
> camera to zoom in on the lights. Setup a program that identifies when the
> picture in the camera has a high green content to automatically start the
> car.
> Benefits: 1) fast reaction time, 2) no jumping the gun.
>
> 3) Low Rolling Resistance front tires.
> Benefits: Less drag on non-powered tires improves performance.
>
> That's it! Am I crazy, or do any of these ideas have merit?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
