EV Digest 6746
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Over voltage in a pack
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by "Brian Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV Drag Racing Ideas
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Drag Racing Ideas
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Two motor clarifications [like the killacycle]
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve, Million Lb Jettas
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Gorilla Vehicles for sale on ebay
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Electric Mini Cooper - Hub motors
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) New England EAA Meeting.
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: flywheel balancing, motors an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Why I got the batteries that I did
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Gorilla Vehicles for sale on ebay
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PFC-20
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I heard the contactors in my head go 'click' when I read these replies. Thanks!!
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I am looking for Optima D34M blue top or D34 yellow top batteries and
I keep getting prices in the $170-200 range. Can you point me to the
right place to find 4 Optimas for $130 each?
Brian
On 5/8/07, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to All,
Steve Powers wrote:
>So, I did but 12 V / 80 AH (at 20 hr rate) flooded
>batteries. You say ... marine batteries ... I say
>... well I guess they are (but the highest grade
>Starting / Deep Cycle Marine batteries you can buy).
>
>
You probably should have looked into the EV archives, as this subject is
well covered.
>I see it like this Optimas are $170 / ea and they are
>only 50 Ah. Sure they can put out 800 - 1000 CCA, but
>my controller is only 550 A. My new batteries have
>650 CCA. So acceleration performance is no different.
>
>
With just a little searching, you can find Optimas for considerably less
than that, closer to $125-$130 each. Locally here in the Portland metro
area, you can get the bigger group 31 Optimas for $175 each. As to the
ahr rating, they're also 55 ahr, not 50...50 is what the Exide Orbital
is rated at. Continuing on....there's a HUGE difference between 800 cca
and 650....HUGE! In EV terms, this means considerably less voltage sag
under load, which translates into a higher voltage pack while
accelerating at a given current, which translates into BIG improvements
in acceleration and hill-climbing power.
Again, its been written about over and over...in my own small and light
car, Blue Meanie, way back in late '94 when it too, was at 144V and only
sporting a 450 amp controller, I switched from 105 ahr marine style wet
cells to prototype Optimas...Yikes, what a dramatic difference! With the
larger, heavier and far wimpier wet cells, the pack would sag to about
95 volts under full acceleration...with the Optimas? There was a stout
120 volts under full pedal! That extra 15 hp was very noticeable in the
2250 lb. car!
Though your wet cell 80 ahr batteries are rated at 650 cca, they will
not repeatably be able to deliver that kind of current without plate
warpage and battery deterioration. The Optimas on the other hand, love
high currents, are designed to give those kind of currents, and will do
so every day without complaining...do this to those marine / RV
batteries and you'll be throwing them away in a couple of months.
>Cycle life - they have a 1 year free replacement and 2
>year pro rated warranty. So, I'm not worried there.
>
>
They'll probably honor the warranty the first time you return in 4-5
months with worn-out batteries, after that, they'll figure out a way to
not keep replacing them under the abuse your EV will be putting them
through. My RV style batteries were pretty much wasted in 6 months. The
Optimas? They typically went 3-4 years under the intermittent type
driving the car had. The cycle life of those wet cell 12V batteries
plummets when discharged at EV currents and EV depth of discharges.
I just pulled the 6 year old Optimas from Blue Meanie, not a bit of
corrosion anywhere, the cases and terminals still look new. True, this
car doesn't get driven every day in a commute situation, but it did see
1000 amps discharges all the time, and there's probably 400-450 cycles
on the batteries.
>Capacity. Rated 80 AH. Maybe I'll get 40 AH usable.
>Still not much worse than Optimas.
>
>
When I switched from 12, 105 ahr wet cell 12V batteries to the 12
Optimas, my car's range was about the same, 20-23 miles or so. Pretty
amazing, since I went from 105 ahr batteries to 65 ahr batteries (the
optimistic 65 ahr rating of subsequent production Optimas was later
lowered to a more reasonable 55 ahrs) When the car's pack was upped to
13 of them @ 156V, the range was about 25 miles. I 'did' squeeze 31
miles one time on a hot summer day driving about 40 mph, but that was a
pretty deep discharge!
>So, did I make a mistake? Not sure.
>
In terms of how you assessed battery ratings and capabilities,
definitely. If price was the main criteria and you got the wet cell 12
volters for $75 each or so (I just got into this thread and missed any
previous posts) and if you are not expecting anything more than
occasional 200-300 amps draws, than probably not. At low currents and
low depth of discharges, you'll get 'OK' performance from the batteries
you chose and they might last a year and a half. If you want to have
fun and put the pedal down often, or if you have to pull grades that
require heavy currents, you would have been far better off with a set of
Optimas, Orbitals, or Hawkers.
Historically, most everyone has had miserable experiences with the same
type of batteries you chose, and most everyone who's gone from them to
Optimas, never looked back.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As long as rules allow it I think all those ideas are excellent and
would probably change drag racing forever for both gas and electric.
On Tue, 8 May 2007 8:26 am, Todd Martin wrote:
Okay, I've been thinking up ways to improve an EV Drag Racer's
Performance:
1) Instead of doing a 'burnout' on the tires just before the race
(which is done I believe to heat up the tires for a stickier contact
surface), heat the tires electrically.
Method: buy or make strips of heat resistant fabric with electric
wiring embedded in it (like an electric blanket, but for higher
temperatures). Wrap the tires in the fabric and heat in a controlled
manner to the perfect temperature using an offboard electric source.
Just before race, remove wrapping for toasty warm tires.
Benefits: 1) no air pollution from 'burnout', 2) controlled
temperature for ideal stickyness, 3) no loss of car's battery capacity
from 'burnout'.
2) Install camera in car to identify when the light turns green.
Method: buy a digital video-camera and mount it in the car. Orient
the camera to zoom in on the lights. Setup a program that identifies
when the picture in the camera has a high green content to
automatically start the car.
Benefits: 1) fast reaction time, 2) no jumping the gun.
3) Low Rolling Resistance front tires.
Benefits: Less drag on non-powered tires improves performance.
That's it! Am I crazy, or do any of these ideas have merit?
Thanks,
Todd Martin
1997 Solectria Force, FVEAA
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Mark - I was coming to somewhat the same conclusion. I don't mind a
challenge, but to get 30+ miles out of a light pack in this car seems to me
to be a little too much to expect with lead-acid batteries. If he is willing
to pay for LI-ions, maybe it is doable?
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dutko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
Converting a modern cooper would be a challenge, the electronic systems
on the car are all computer controlled and tied to each other and very
complex, the curb weight is high relative to the space for batteries.
Simple tinkering with this car can result in blowing a main body ecu. FYI
Remember it's a modern BMW not a honda or toyota.
On May 8, 2007, at 6:54 AM, joe wrote:
Are these pure electric or hybrid? I'm asking because I've been asked to
convert a Mini Cooper to pure electric. I'm trying to ascertain whether
it is practical for the range desired.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:45 PM
Subject: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
There is a part about 3/4 through the video where she gets on the
throttle that's pretty neat:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=51
The motor sounds good, plus an under hood shot:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=50
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes but- The electronics may kill you unless you are a BMW tech, the
entire car communications are linked and even taking a battery cable
off can mess the car up. I had on 05' and the dealer admitted the
electronics were a nightmare. Removing simple parts requires a dealer
visit to reset the computer. Unless you have worked extensively on
modern electronics I would let someone else do the project. I was
tempted to do mine but I sold it instead. If I could buy a really
good conversion with 50 mile range and the same handling I would be
very very tempted if the price were under $45K. It's a fun car!
On May 8, 2007, at 8:54 AM, joe wrote:
Thanks, Mark - I was coming to somewhat the same conclusion. I
don't mind a challenge, but to get 30+ miles out of a light pack in
this car seems to me to be a little too much to expect with lead-
acid batteries. If he is willing to pay for LI-ions, maybe it is
doable?
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dutko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
Converting a modern cooper would be a challenge, the electronic
systems on the car are all computer controlled and tied to each
other and very complex, the curb weight is high relative to the
space for batteries. Simple tinkering with this car can result in
blowing a main body ecu. FYI Remember it's a modern BMW not a
honda or toyota.
On May 8, 2007, at 6:54 AM, joe wrote:
Are these pure electric or hybrid? I'm asking because I've been
asked to convert a Mini Cooper to pure electric. I'm trying to
ascertain whether it is practical for the range desired.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:45 PM
Subject: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
There is a part about 3/4 through the video where she gets on the
throttle that's pretty neat:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=51
The motor sounds good, plus an under hood shot:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=50
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back when I was autocrossing, tire covers were used to keep the sunlight off
the tires so the heat wouldn't mess with the inflation pressures. When the
sun shines on one side of the car, the inflation pressure goes up just on
that side, which screws up handling and makes it hard to tune your pressures
for track conditions (when you're talking about winning or losing by .01
second, it matters). Also, most of us were running pressures well above
manufacturors recommendations already, didn't want them creeping higher by
themself.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Good thinking, and the gassers are doing some of this already. I see
motorcycle racers at my local road racing track wrapping their tires with
electrically heated tire covers. Autocrossers sometimes put insulating
tire covers to hold heat in their tires between runs. You'd still want to
do a little burnout to clean the tires.
#2, automating your launch, is illegal in drag racing.
Lots of serious drag racers use skinny front wheels for less rolling
resistance and less weight. I'm surprised more EVers don't do this for
better range.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 1:26 PM
Subject: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve
> Howdy,
>
> If you have 60-70% of your batteries on the rear wheels then remove the
rear
> porportioning valve for better braking. I've done this on my
Electro-Metro
> for 120k miles, my E-Jeep for 50k miles and now my E-Porsche. I think
otmar
> has done as well on his. I also used the smaller 17mm master brake
cilinder
> so I don't need a vacuum booster.
> Hi Mark;
I Sure DO have alotta weight in the back of the Jetta! At 3300 lbs on
the scales yesterday! With 13 batteries in the trunk area, it's a load! How
much smaller do you have to go to get rid of the vacuum brakes? I mean I
don't know what a Jetta runs now? I mean MC Bore size?Are their genaric
sorta master cylinders, that you can just buy and retrofit? I would think
you would need to ge quite a bit smaller? to get the increased effort
without too much pedal travel? Lets say, the Jetta was a 18MM piston, would
it do with a 14MM to get more "Push" at the brake cylinders? Would LOVE to
get rid of the whole Vacuum brake thing!I'm running the old Rabbit vacuum
brake pump and the brakes are lousy! Got to push SO hard. Maybe I have a
leak?It's only a few hundred lbs more than the Rabbit, but STILL a Led Sled!
Any thoughts, guyz?
My 3300 lbs worth
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Don't underestimate the value of a business! Everything in a business
is worth something. It's mainly the customers that make it worth
anything.
True, however for 2.1 Million, we're talking about a business that is
essentially claiming that it can generate over 210k a year in profits
(10 years being a standard metric for purchased businesses) without
significant additional investment, including only operating expenses
and other fixed and one time costs.
That isn't including interest on the loan either. Even if you are
using your own money to buy, you should be loaning it to yourself
under terms, otherwise you will be losing money due to inflation and
market fluctuations.
So, more like 300k per year in pure profits, after expenses including
your salary. And no additional investment is included in this.
I'm not confident you can do 300k reliably for 10 years, over and
above all expenses and wages/taxes/etc. on this business. Let alone
needing to advertise, modernize, set up R&D, and so on.
So thats why I think it is overpriced :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kip> I've yet to get my EV on the road, but I'm leaning heavily toward
Kip> the same idea of keeping cost and weight down for a range that
Kip> leaves me perhaps 5-10 more miles than I need to 80% DOD over my 5
Kip> mile commute. Based on the typical 800lbs/gal of gas estimate, I
Kip> should have that and more with just 500lbs of lead acid, and have
Kip> plenty of performance for the flat land upon which it will be
Kip> driven. As such, the suspension of my car can be kept stock with a
Kip> curb weight barely 100-200lbs over stock.
Hmmm... What's your planned EV platform (donor car, motor, battery config,
etc)?
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want one!!
Looks like a pretty sweet car. It is all electric according to the
video and the website.
Did you know that in the remake of The Italian Job they had to use
electric mini's in the subway scene.
"...Three electric MINIs were also made for use in some subway scenes
in the 2003 movie The Italian Job to satisfy the subway authorities
concerns over possible carbon monoxide poisoning."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINI_(BMW)
Here is a Hybrid Mini with 4 in-hub motors.
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html
Checkout there hub motors.
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/wheelmotors.html
Tehben
On May 8, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Mark Dutko wrote:
Yes but- The electronics may kill you unless you are a BMW tech,
the entire car communications are linked and even taking a battery
cable off can mess the car up. I had on 05' and the dealer admitted
the electronics were a nightmare. Removing simple parts requires a
dealer visit to reset the computer. Unless you have worked
extensively on modern electronics I would let someone else do the
project. I was tempted to do mine but I sold it instead. If I
could buy a really good conversion with 50 mile range and the same
handling I would be very very tempted if the price were under $45K.
It's a fun car!
On May 8, 2007, at 8:54 AM, joe wrote:
Thanks, Mark - I was coming to somewhat the same conclusion. I
don't mind a challenge, but to get 30+ miles out of a light pack
in this car seems to me to be a little too much to expect with
lead-acid batteries. If he is willing to pay for LI-ions, maybe it
is doable?
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dutko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
Converting a modern cooper would be a challenge, the electronic
systems on the car are all computer controlled and tied to each
other and very complex, the curb weight is high relative to the
space for batteries. Simple tinkering with this car can result
in blowing a main body ecu. FYI Remember it's a modern BMW not a
honda or toyota.
On May 8, 2007, at 6:54 AM, joe wrote:
Are these pure electric or hybrid? I'm asking because I've been
asked to convert a Mini Cooper to pure electric. I'm trying to
ascertain whether it is practical for the range desired.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:45 PM
Subject: Electric Mini Cooper Videos
There is a part about 3/4 through the video where she gets on the
throttle that's pretty neat:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=51
The motor sounds good, plus an under hood shot:
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/multimedia.php?typeID=V&vidID=50
--- End Message ---
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Too bad we can't just get gliders without all the electronics installed :)
--T
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* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
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----- Original Message -----
From: "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: flywheel balancing, motors an' Stuff
> Bob, If you are using a solid state converter, and depending on
grounding,
> AC currents can conduct through the bearings and cause pitting. These are
> high frequency currents that are coupled via stray capacitance from the
> armature windings into the armature laminations, and then to the nearest
> return path which can be the bearings. There are several solutions:
> insulated bearings, no kidding. Also, running a carbon brush ring on the
> motor shaft.
> Hi Geo.
Now THAT'S one I wouldn't of thought of! Electric Lokies have a carbon
brush setup, some of them, which presses on the end of the nice clean
machined axles, for current passing thing. Hah! With hundreds of tons
pressing down, law of gravity in effect til further notice, you woulda
thought that this wouldn't be an issue??So If I were running a contractor
controller?I suppose if I coulda taken the bearings apart and looked?I
wonder if the Prius People have taken this one to mind? It;'s my WHEEL
bearings that I think are going on that!?
> Another possibility is that when shipping your car across country to a
race
> track in Portland, without the motor turning, the bearings pound and
vibrate
> in place. All lubrication is displaced, and galling and pitting results.
> I never took the car THAT far! Onl;y Joliet Illinois, flat towing it in
neutral, which DID lead to it's demise when the RS Pin fell overboard coming
home!Soooo Guyz; Check your towing shit often, and carefully, on the way to
Power of DC. Be safe! Not sorry, like me!
> One more item on flywheels: Some engines have crankshafts that
> are "externally" balanced. This means that the flywheel or harmonic
> balancer are lopsided on purpose to offset crankshaft mass. Ford V8's
come
> to mind. So, it would be very important for an EV application to check
this.
>
> Old Ford Flatheads?
Seeya
Bob
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian,
I have this same question on where to get the Optima deep cycle
batteries at a good price. In California I see Costco and AutoZone in
the range you mentioned of $170 to $200 for the D34 deep cycle model. I
have the starting Optima in two gas vehicles and like them, and a deep
cycle Optima in a trailer.
Do you know of a chain store that sells Optimas at a good price? Do you
shop around local stores for a sale? I imagine it may help to be
purchasing a larger lot of batteries and ask for a discount.
I may decide to use two or three Optima deep cycle batteries in the
travel trailer, and just use those for testing. If I get the electric
motorcycle built, I could use those batteries in it, and then just
borrow them about three times a year for trips in the trailer.
In the two to five year old range there are a lot of children on our
street. The "Powerwheels" type of ride on electric toys have taken
over. It looked like an electric vehicle show in the cul-de-sac last
night. There was everything from 6 volts all the way up to 12 volts.
Most with 4 wheels, but one unit had three wheels. These little ones
must be in on some new ideas, or part of some discussion list that
supports technology, new, old, efficient, safe as they all were
supporting contactor type controllers. They had switches for slow or
fast, switches for forward or reverse, some switches that seemed to us
older bystanders to only make a motor, horn, or funny noise, but must
have been for some purpose we did not understand of resetting something,
or adjusting the power curve, or balancing batteries, or reading amps,
or battery life. They may be taking over. If a two year old runs 6
volts, and a 4 year old is tapping 12 volts, does that mean that by the
time they are 20 they will be running a 60 volt Vespa to college to
afford a 120 volt "Volt" mini-van by age 40?
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Fox
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:51 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
John,
I am looking for Optima D34M blue top or D34 yellow top batteries and
I keep getting prices in the $170-200 range. Can you point me to the
right place to find 4 Optimas for $130 each?
Brian
On 5/8/07, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Steve Powers wrote:
(snip)
>
> >I see it like this Optimas are $170 / ea and they are
> >only 50 Ah. Sure they can put out 800 - 1000 CCA, but
> >my controller is only 550 A. My new batteries have
> >650 CCA. So acceleration performance is no different.
> >
> >
>
> With just a little searching, you can find Optimas for considerably
less
> than that, closer to $125-$130 each. Locally here in the Portland
metro
> area, you can get the bigger group 31 Optimas for $175 each. As to the
> ahr rating, they're also 55 ahr, not 50...50 is what the Exide Orbital
> is rated at. Continuing on....there's a HUGE difference between 800
cca
> and 650....HUGE! In EV terms, this means considerably less voltage sag
> under load, which translates into a higher voltage pack while
> accelerating at a given current, which translates into BIG
improvements
> in acceleration and hill-climbing power.
>
(snip)
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Why I got the batteries that I did
<snip>
> Purchased from the right dealer in bulk, Optima YTs (Group 34) should be
> about $99-$110 each. The Group 31 are much more expensive, at about
> $160/each.
>
Mark, WHERE can you buy yellow tops for these prices?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/8/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Don't underestimate the value of a business! Everything in a business
> is worth something. It's mainly the customers that make it worth
> anything.
True, however for 2.1 Million, we're talking about a business that is
essentially claiming that it can generate over 210k a year in profits
(10 years being a standard metric for purchased businesses) without
significant additional investment, including only operating expenses
and other fixed and one time costs.
That isn't including interest on the loan either. Even if you are
using your own money to buy, you should be loaning it to yourself
under terms, otherwise you will be losing money due to inflation and
market fluctuations.
So, more like 300k per year in pure profits, after expenses including
your salary. And no additional investment is included in this.
I'm not confident you can do 300k reliably for 10 years, over and
above all expenses and wages/taxes/etc. on this business. Let alone
needing to advertise, modernize, set up R&D, and so on.
So thats why I think it is overpriced :)
All good points. I suppose they should try to provide more information
if they really want it to sell.
--
Martin Klingensmith
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--- Begin Message ---
Yup.. I just fixed one from RENO.. metal screw driver shorts the Fan drive
to case... if case is grounded... Bad thing happen.
They ate there fans and Fet drive... Power stage staid alive.
Yea it's pretty much a Rich Fix thing....
I use a Spectrol plastic pot tuning screw driver. It don't short a thing!
The pot is SUPPOSED to be hard to tune... so prying fingers don't dial in
400 volts by a mistake.
Amps is a feature, Volts trim is a garded setpoint that could cause real
trouble if messed with.
Sorry I still don't want to change that.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:09 AM
Subject: PFC-20
Hi EVerybody;
Have been running the Jetta , now for a couple of weaks, now. And have
started weeding out the minor(like Part Time lighting) Crappy badd-eries,
ect but I THINK I may have busted the charger. Ya know, you PFC drivers,
that little hols adjustment pot, on the left of the little plastic cover
plate?You get a tiny screwdriver and TRY to find the mini-pot?Christ! Rich
put a GODAMN Knob on that!!!! So you don't have to fish around TRYING to
find it! I got a small "Zorch' trying to find it! Fan speeded up a bit and
NOTHING , volts wise comes out! The pot seems to be adrift enough, it
"ducks" away when you try to screwdriver it, as it is. Sigh! Guess I gotta
pull the unit and open it up to see if the pot is detached from the circuit
bored?
Anybody ELSE done this? Before I have to ship it back as DOA?
Back to a Bad Boy, again.
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Alan Brinkman wrote:
Do you know of a chain store that sells Optimas at a good price? Do you
shop around local stores for a sale? I imagine it may help to be
purchasing a larger lot of batteries and ask for a discount.
For the best price in batteries you need to avoid the chain stores, and
you may have to travel out of your way. A chain store won't usually
budge on price much if at all. Smaller battery retailers can budge a
little, but they still have to pay their upmarket and make a profit.
A few years back when I was searching around Austin (a midsized city)
Optima YTs were about $160 retail from a discount store. The local
Batteries Plus store had them for the same price, but if I purchased a
bunch the manager will drop the price to about $139. I called every
battery place in town, and stumbled on an Interstate All-Battery retail
store in South Austin. None of the other Interstate stores could drop
the price below about $130 or so, but this one quoted me $110 each.
Turns out that this store is both a storefront, and the wholesale dealer
to the other Interstate stores in the area. So his quote was what the
other dealers were paying wholesale.
Spreading out, I found I could get YT's from his wholesaler in Dallas
for $99/each, when I was purchasing 20. (Most of these operations won't
even talk to you unless you're ordering a bunch..)
I purchased from the local Interstate wholesaler...(didn't feel like
making two trips to Dallas to save $200)
Same thing happened when I tried to buy Exide Orbitals.. nobody in town
could do them for less than about $150 each. Talked to the sales guy at
the factory in San Antonio and he could sell me a pallet (50 or so?) for
$89/each... with 10% discounts on that price for every 5 thousand (IIRC)
I sold per month. He'd even deliver the pallet. I didn't need a full
pallet, so I politely asked the sales guy who his best dealer was. I
called them (about 40 minutes South of Austin), asked for the manager,
and, knowing that the manager was getting the batteries for less than
$89, I managed to talk him down to $99.
(Now, I don't consider myself a particularly good haggler, by any
measure. I didn't do so well on my last car purchase)
It appears the battery world is all about distributors, and discounts.
The higher up the food chain you go, the higher volume he's doing, the
higher the discounts and the less profits you are paying to middlemen.
Each level up there are higher minimums to get people's attention. You
might have to go out of the way, a lot fo the cost in batteries is
shipping. Often you can strike a deal for less if you pick them up,
distributors are used to delivering, or drop shipping from the factory.
Once you are out of retail, there is plenty of room to negotiate, but
generally only the manager can do so. End of the month is the best time,
since some guys are reaching to make it to the next highest discount
level or boost their sales figures.
Most of this industrial stuff is about relationships. If you've got a
local EV group, drop the name or a business card when you do business
with someone. Let the other members of the group know you did, and
encourage them to do the same. If they are interested, let them know
what you are working on, and give them a ride in the finished product.
The salesman at our local wholesale fastener store remembers my face,
and thinks I'm one of his best customers. I'm not. I come in a lot, but
typically only buy a handful of parts. Worse, half the time he give
them to me, since I want so few. Even after I pointed that out to him,
he still does it. ;-) (BTW, the fastener place is a huge resource... so
many car parts are metric, and the big box stores carry a tiny selection
of metric parts. A single fastener can cost more than a box at the
wholesaler.)
The same with the machinist's I use. They have better and more
profitable things to do than help me, but my project is interesting, and
I usually bring a box of Krispy Cream donuts. While they are stuffing
donuts, they will usually go over my drawings and help make revisions to
simplify the work (and the cost) or occasionally do simple work for no
cost. (Like pressing bearings, or bandsawing out the profile of my
adapter.) They also like that I am flexible about my timeline, so they
can set the work aside if a rush job comes in.
Ask John Wayland, a lot of the quality of his work comes from knowing
the right people. I have an mp3 file around here somewhere of him on
the phone with UPS trying to get tires delivered in time for a race. He
just keeps politely pushing, never taking no for an answer, and sweetly
begging the rep to help him. Its a great example.... Maybe he'll let me
post it to his website.
Mark Farver
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