EV Digest 6747
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: PFC-20
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: motor wiring
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PFC-20
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Why I got the batteries that I did
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve, Million Lb Jettas
by "Tim Medeck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) estimating power using battery internal resistance values
by "David Lucente" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: motor wiring
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: was Comercial Contactor Controller, now drawings
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) re: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: estimating power using battery internal resistance values
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: estimating power using battery internal resistance values
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: motor wiring
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: estimating power using battery internal resistance values
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) More Tweety (NmG) fun...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: motor wiring
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: flywheel balancing, motors an' Stuff
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: PFC-20
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: estimating power using battery internal resistance values
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: More Tweety (NmG) fun...
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey I am proud of that 1500 Mcd 525 Nm GREEN LED !!
They cost a bunch !!!
I can't see the slots on the PHEV mod chargers without using a thumb to
block off the LED while dialing in all 4 pots.
There is NO doubt that you can see the AC ON status if the charger is
powered up..
Right????
That's why it so bright...direct sunlight readable....
Or is it I like light sabers... and this is a trial install.
Er....Get the plastic Pot screw driver....
Better yet I got a bunch from Rod at EVParts years ago... somebody has them
in volume.. I need to by a case and ship at least one with every charger...
You don't see me at a Race without one of my Spectrol pot drivers!!! They
also make good hand toys while I am off in Lala land...
madman..
I LIKE BRIGHT LEDs...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: PFC-20
> Bob Wrote: "Rich put a [EMAIL PROTECTED] Knob on that!!!! "
>
> I'll second that. I had to grind down a 'micro' screwdriver to just get
it into the hole and hoped the sharp edges wouldn't destroy anything, and it
still rubs the edges of the hole, so it's hard to tell if it is in the slot
or not. and you can't look into the hole unless you block off the blinding
LED's next to it with one hand. You could light a whole room with those for
sure!
>
> Bob, if the pot floats, something has come loose (when did it develop this
much float?). Mine is pretty rigidly mounted, impossible to slip the blade
around it. It's doesn't sound too bad, but it probably does need to be sent
back for repair.
>
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2007 11:09:20 AM
> Subject: PFC-20
>
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Have been running the Jetta , now for a couple of weaks, now. And have
started weeding out the minor(like Part Time lighting) Crappy badd-eries,
ect but I THINK I may have busted the charger. Ya know, you PFC drivers,
that little hols adjustment pot, on the left of the little plastic cover
plate?You get a tiny screwdriver and TRY to find the mini-pot?Christ! Rich
put a GODAMN Knob on that!!!! So you don't have to fish around TRYING to
find it! I got a small "Zorch' trying to find it! Fan speeded up a bit and
NOTHING , volts wise comes out! The pot seems to be adrift enough, it
"ducks" away when you try to screwdriver it, as it is. Sigh! Guess I gotta
pull the unit and open it up to see if the pot is detached from the circuit
bored?
>
> Anybody ELSE done this? Before I have to ship it back as DOA?
>
> Back to a Bad Boy, again.
>
> Bob
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
> * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> * (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
> * Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
> * If your postings display this message your mail program *
> * is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim,
I have seen a few Elec Trak traction motors which were
compound wound. They used field weakening as part of
speed control. So the snowthrower motor may be just a
traction motor wired for single speed. Just a guess.
Never saw one. Can you take resistance measurements
between field terminals? Might provide a clue.
By the way, convention is to use S1 and S2 for series
field terminals and F1 and F2 for shunt field
terminals. And a reversible compound motor would have
5 terminals (minimum), A1, A2 ,S1 ,S2 and F.
Jeff
--- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have a GE motor. 5BC58J****
>
> It is the snowthrower motor from an Elec-trak. I was
> under the impression that this was strictly a series
> wound motor but the way it is wired has me confused.
> Before I tear it apart, I'll ask.....
>
> It has the 4 bolts in pairs 180deg from each other,
> down by the commutator end. Easy enough, right. They
> are not labelled, I am assuming the two most back
> are the Arm bolts and the two inward are the Field
> bolts. (standard series motor configuration). There
> is a fifth bolt up by the drive end.
>
> A1 and F1 are strapped together, A2 and F2 are
> strapped together. The battery is connected to one
> of the A/F bolts and the fifth bolt. Reversing
> polarity does NOT reverse drive direction. Removing
> one of the A/F straps and connecting the battery to
> an A and an F does nothing.
>
> The A's and F's are my designations, based on the
> series motors I've seen... there are no labels on
> this motor.
>
> Any ideas as to what I have.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob.. not gonna be any down time here... I will turn it in minutes... not
months...
My promise...
I will set it for 150 volts...
And send you a pot screwdriver...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: PFC-20
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: PFC-20
>
>
> > Maybe something more along the lines of this?
> >
> >
http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/layout.asp?product%5Fid=318X805
> > Thanks Ryan for the link!
>
> But why do I hafta? Dumb design, to begin with! The "Floating" pot,
too.
> This issue I had before. Rich are ya listing? Put a simple shaft extender
> and KNOB on the panel, to keep us fumble finger guyz OUT of the Green
> Box!!My biggest beef with a superb charger. All I want to do is set the
high
> est voltage that I want the charger to go to, then shut off. Haven't tried
> to decipher the timing feature, yet.EVen if it doesn't shut down, just
float
> the voltage about 150 volts for a 120 volt car.I havent had a chance to
take
> it apart to TRY to fix it. Don't like to mess with it almost as much as
the
> damn down time shipping it Out West again.
>
> End of Rant
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> IMO, lacking more affordable battery tech., EVs should
> be purpose built to their intended use.
**applause**
Exactly right, IMHO. Identify *YOUR* requirements and build to them. Be
open to input, but always validate that input against *YOUR*
requirements.
Do that, and you'll have a vehicle that works for *YOU*.
> I think it's senseless and expensive to design in as
> much range as possible if your specific needs are well
> under 50% of that.
Now designing for production... that's another set of challenges. That's
a solution space where you have to care about other folks' requirements.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are their genaric
sorta master cylinders, that you can just buy and retrofit? I would think
you would need to ge quite a bit smaller? to get the increased effort
without too much pedal travel? Lets say, the Jetta was a 18MM piston, would
it do with a 14MM to get more "Push" at the brake cylinders? Would LOVE to
get rid of the whole Vacuum brake thing!I'm running the old Rabbit vacuum
brake pump and the brakes are lousy! Got to push SO hard. Maybe I have a
leak?It's only a few hundred lbs more than the Rabbit, but STILL a Led
Sled!
Any thoughts, guyz?
Bob
Hi Bob,
Wilwood helped me figure out what master cylinder and wheel cylinders to use
on my Renault conversion. The master cylinder assembly was only 58 bucks.
Some fabrication will be needed though, I'm sure.
They also sell a nice, adjustable proportioning valve for around $42.00.
Just turn the knob to change the bias up to 57 percent.
My two pumps worth,
Tim Medeck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I was wondering if battery voltage drop under a certain load can be
easily calculated (I'm a novice in electronics) Can I just use V=IR
where R is the internal resistance of the battery, and I is my max
controller amps? For example, the resistance of a T-105 (taken from
the Hemp EV calculator page) is .004. So if I draw 500 amps, voltage
drop is 500*.004 = 2 volts? Then since I would be using 20 batteries,
that would be 40 volts total drop. Then to go a step further, 120
volts nominal - 40 volts drop = 80 volts * 500 amps = 40 kW max power?
I'm not sure if it's as simple as that, but I put together a little
spreadsheet using these calculations, and the difference in total
power for different batteries with the same starting voltage and max
current is pretty dramatic:
120 volts / 500 Amps
battery V int.R Vdrop #bats watts HP
--------- -- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----
T-105 6 0.0040 2.000 20 40000 53.6
T-125 6 0.0038 1.900 20 41000 55.0
T-145 6 0.0036 1.800 20 42000 56.3
T-875 8 0.0080 4.000 15 30000 40.2
Opti D750 12 0.0028 1.400 10 53000 71.0
Conc 12105 12 0.0038 1.900 10 50500 67.7
HawkCycBC 12 0.0015 0.750 10 56250 75.4
ExideOrb 12 0.0028 1.400 10 53000 71.0
UB121100 12 0.0040 2.000 10 50000 67.0
Can someone set me straight?
Thanks
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If we're still talking about Toyotas, look to the four-wheeling market.
If you go full float:
http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfoscomm/catalog/index.php?cPath=27&osCs
id=dfeed7daaa28fe5cef415acdd23c832c
...if that URL is too long, click in from the front page:
www.frontrangeoffroadfab.com
Randii
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:02 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Brake Rear Pressure Porportioning Valve
ed wrote:
> Are there aftermarket kits to convert drum rear-ends to disk
> (+min-drum, for emergency brakes)?
Depends on the vehicle if there is an aftermarket kit for four wheel
disc brakes or not:
http://www.ssbrakes.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jeff,
I'll concede that I screwed the F1-S1 thing..
I also have an ET drive motor sitting on the bench with this motor. They are
different.
The traction motor only has two high power terminals. It is wired internally in
series. It also has two field connections, I've seen two types used, one used
fast-on connectors and the other used a 4 pin molex, oddly enough it is the
identical 4 plug molex as used in todays PC's for powering the harddrives,
which makes finding spares connectors real easy. So obviously the shunt field
in the traction motors are designed for low current.
All 5 bolts on the snowthrower motor are copper 3/8" bolts. I believe 3/8",
they may be 5/16".
I had assumed if it were a compound motor then removing one of the straps and
connecting power there would power the motor. But it did nothing. I'll try
again this evening, I wasn't exactly using "best practices" when doing these
tests, maybe had a bad connection. I also expected that reversing the polarity
would cause it to run backwards. But, if it is a weak shunt, comparatively then
maybe it wouldn't reverse but instead simply weaken.
I'm not at home at the moment... I'll do some more testing when I get there.
Thanks,
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:59 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: motor wiring
>
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I have seen a few Elec Trak traction motors which were
> compound wound. They used field weakening as part of
> speed control. So the snowthrower motor may be just a
> traction motor wired for single speed. Just a guess.
> Never saw one. Can you take resistance measurements
> between field terminals? Might provide a clue.
>
> By the way, convention is to use S1 and S2 for series
> field terminals and F1 and F2 for shunt field
> terminals. And a reversible compound motor would have
> 5 terminals (minimum), A1, A2 ,S1 ,S2 and F.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a GE motor. 5BC58J****
>>
>> It is the snowthrower motor from an Elec-trak. I was
>> under the impression that this was strictly a series
>> wound motor but the way it is wired has me confused.
>> Before I tear it apart, I'll ask.....
>>
>> It has the 4 bolts in pairs 180deg from each other,
>> down by the commutator end. Easy enough, right. They
>> are not labelled, I am assuming the two most back
>> are the Arm bolts and the two inward are the Field
>> bolts. (standard series motor configuration). There
>> is a fifth bolt up by the drive end.
>>
>> A1 and F1 are strapped together, A2 and F2 are
>> strapped together. The battery is connected to one
>> of the A/F bolts and the fifth bolt. Reversing
>> polarity does NOT reverse drive direction. Removing
>> one of the A/F straps and connecting the battery to
>> an A and an F does nothing.
>>
>> The A's and F's are my designations, based on the
>> series motors I've seen... there are no labels on
>> this motor.
>>
>> Any ideas as to what I have.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stay Charged!
>> Hump
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
Problem: the list needs a way to make and share simple drawings, so
that Mr H can draw one and Ms Y can edit it, and everybody can read
it. Is this solved already?
Not really. I use ASCII to document schematics because the EVDL does not
allow attachments, and everyone can read ASCII (if they set their
display to a fixed width font).
I was just looking at a complex ascii diagram when I saw your comment,
Lee. There's a bunch of different CAD formats to draw in, but I was
thinking that Powerpoint or OpenOffice are available to all, and OO
can read and write Powerpoint *.ppt files. If Powerpoint (or some
better choice see below...) is good enough (I don't like it, but its
common) that would at least allow folks to draw a picture and share it.
ASCII schematics are ugly, but quick and easy to draw. If it takes me 5
minutes to draw a schematic by hand, its only 10 minutes with ASCII --
but half an hour with a Powerpoint or OpenOffice drawing program.
There are *dozens* of special-purpose programs to draw schematics. If
you spend enough time to master them, they can be reasonably quick. They
also have the big advantage that they are "live", i.e. it knows about
wires and connections and pinouts -- you can drag parts around and they
stay connected, or get pre-drawn parts from their libraries, and do
circuit simulations or PCB layouts from them. The big drawback is that
they all use proprietary formats; if you "publish" in one of these
formats, virtually nobody else can read it.
The other problem is archival. EVDL posts are archived. You can look at
one of my bad old ASCII schematics posted 10 years ago, and it looks the
same today. But if I had used a graphics program, the odds of you being
able to read it today are almost zero. What was a hot new program then
is out of business and obsolete today. Likewise, the formats that
today's OpenOffice produces will be unreadable ancient history in 10 years.
I'd be happy to send some Paypal bux to fund a trip to Kinko's for
scanning, and I'm sure everyone else would too. Even better would be
editable drawings though. Interested?
I didn't know Kinko's did scanning. I'll have to look into it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
childreypa wrote:
I need a Contactor 101 lesson real quick... aren't [contactors] just
a heavy duty relay with a coil and all.
Yes, pretty much. Technically a "relay" has a single pair of contacts,
one fixed, and one on a movable arm that hinges or flexes to make them
touch. They are simple and cheap, and widely used for lower-power switching.
A "contactor" technically has two pairs of contacts. Two are fixed, and
the other two are on a loose movable shorting jumper that is moved by
the coil. Since nothing has to bend or flex, and there are two contacts
in series, contactors are better suited for high voltage, high current
switching.
In practice, people use the terms "relay" and "contactor" almost
interchangeably. They generally use "contactor" to mean big ones, and
"relay" to mean little ones.
And the drum contactor controllers that have been brought up are more
like elaborate switches
Right. It is mechanically operated, rather than by an electromagnet. It
also has an arbitrarily large number of contacts.
One major drawback to the contactor controllers is all the wires.
Seems to me a decent contactor controller would quadruple your wires.
Possibly; it all depends on where you physically mount things. If the
batteries, contactors, and motors are scattered all over the car, there
are going to be a lot of wires. But when they are grouped closely
together, the wiring isn't so bad. Notice that the schematics give you
hints as to what things should be close to minimize wiring.
Could a remote switch be done?
Of course. A drum controller needs all the wires routed to one place. A
contactor controller can be spread out, with contactors close to the
batteries are needed.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
"If you have 60-70% of your batteries on the rear
wheels then remove the rear porportioning valve for
better braking."
I assume you mean unloaded? It seems like 60-70%
loaded in the rear would cause your car to be
unstable, wanting to flip around.
I believe that most car designs target 50%/50%
front/rear when loaded for optimum traction when
accelerating, braking and cornering. Light, 4-seat
front wheel drive gasoline cars will have much higher
front axle weight when unloaded since most of the
payload weight is added to the rear axle. Not sure
about trucks, but I can tell you that 1000 pounds of
spent floodies in the back of my Dad's gasoline Ranger
the other day did not drive very straight.
David Dymaxion wrote:
"Better yet, get an adjustable racing braking
proportioning valve."
This is certainly the best solution for any car with
modified axle weights. I got one when I upgraded from
front drum to disk and couldn't get a stock
replacement part, and didn't want a 40 year old used
one. I dialed it in until the pressure to stop the
car felt the least -- 6.5 out of 10 turns towards more
rear brake pressure; not sure what that proportion is.
Weight distribution is stock + ~35 lbs per axle on
paper; I need to weigh each axle some day to verify
but I tried to weigh everything coming off and going
on. But I still have to do the skid test to make sure
both axles lock up at the same time.
But at least for cars I suggest maintaining loaded EV
axle weights to stock and then keeping the original
proportion.
Chris Jones
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately no. At high rates the battery's chemistry is affected in
a nonlinear manner.
The battery's response is strongly affected by charge state and
temperature. A cold battery in a partial state of charge will have an
output voltage which "sags" under high current loads much more
dramatically than a warm, full one.
Danny
David Lucente wrote:
Hello,
I was wondering if battery voltage drop under a certain load can be
easily calculated (I'm a novice in electronics) Can I just use V=IR
where R is the internal resistance of the battery, and I is my max
controller amps? For example, the resistance of a T-105 (taken from
the Hemp EV calculator page) is .004. So if I draw 500 amps, voltage
drop is 500*.004 = 2 volts? Then since I would be using 20 batteries,
that would be 40 volts total drop. Then to go a step further, 120
volts nominal - 40 volts drop = 80 volts * 500 amps = 40 kW max power?
I'm not sure if it's as simple as that, but I put together a little
spreadsheet using these calculations, and the difference in total
power for different batteries with the same starting voltage and max
current is pretty dramatic:
120 volts / 500 Amps
battery V int.R Vdrop #bats watts HP
--------- -- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----
T-105 6 0.0040 2.000 20 40000 53.6
T-125 6 0.0038 1.900 20 41000 55.0
T-145 6 0.0036 1.800 20 42000 56.3
T-875 8 0.0080 4.000 15 30000 40.2
Opti D750 12 0.0028 1.400 10 53000 71.0
Conc 12105 12 0.0038 1.900 10 50500 67.7
HawkCycBC 12 0.0015 0.750 10 56250 75.4
ExideOrb 12 0.0028 1.400 10 53000 71.0
UB121100 12 0.0040 2.000 10 50000 67.0
Can someone set me straight?
Thanks
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Lucente wrote:
I was wondering if battery voltage drop under a certain load can be
easily calculated... Can I just use V=IR where R is the internal
resistance of the battery, and I is my max controller amps?
In theory, yes. But the quoted resistances for various batteries varies
*drastically*. It changes with state of charge, with temperature, with
age of the battery, and many other factors.
The resistance also changes dynamically, from moment to moment. When you
apply a heavy load current, the internal resistance will be quite low at
first, but rise rapidly with time.
This is what makes it so difficult to model the behavior of a real battery.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
Reversing polarity on a compound motor does not cause
field weakening and it rotates the same way. These GE
motors were a strange bunch, in my mind. Two pole
with compensating windings down the ploe face. Needed
for commutation over wide field range, I guess.
Shunt fields would be in the 20 to 50 ohm range,
guessing, so 1 or 2 amps. Series field way less than
an ohm.
Jeff
--- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks Jeff,
>
> I'll concede that I screwed the F1-S1 thing..
>
> I also have an ET drive motor sitting on the bench
> with this motor. They are different.
>
> The traction motor only has two high power
> terminals. It is wired internally in series. It also
> has two field connections, I've seen two types used,
> one used fast-on connectors and the other used a 4
> pin molex, oddly enough it is the identical 4 plug
> molex as used in todays PC's for powering the
> harddrives, which makes finding spares connectors
> real easy. So obviously the shunt field in the
> traction motors are designed for low current.
>
> All 5 bolts on the snowthrower motor are copper 3/8"
> bolts. I believe 3/8", they may be 5/16".
>
> I had assumed if it were a compound motor then
> removing one of the straps and connecting power
> there would power the motor. But it did nothing.
> I'll try again this evening, I wasn't exactly using
> "best practices" when doing these tests, maybe had a
> bad connection. I also expected that reversing the
> polarity would cause it to run backwards. But, if it
> is a weak shunt, comparatively then maybe it
> wouldn't reverse but instead simply weaken.
>
> I'm not at home at the moment... I'll do some more
> testing when I get there.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jeff Major
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 1:59 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: motor wiring
> >
> >
> > Hi Tim,
> >
> > I have seen a few Elec Trak traction motors which
> were
> > compound wound. They used field weakening as part
> of
> > speed control. So the snowthrower motor may be
> just a
> > traction motor wired for single speed. Just a
> guess.
> > Never saw one. Can you take resistance
> measurements
> > between field terminals? Might provide a clue.
> >
> > By the way, convention is to use S1 and S2 for
> series
> > field terminals and F1 and F2 for shunt field
> > terminals. And a reversible compound motor would
> have
> > 5 terminals (minimum), A1, A2 ,S1 ,S2 and F.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I have a GE motor. 5BC58J****
> >>
> >> It is the snowthrower motor from an Elec-trak. I
> was
> >> under the impression that this was strictly a
> series
> >> wound motor but the way it is wired has me
> confused.
> >> Before I tear it apart, I'll ask.....
> >>
> >> It has the 4 bolts in pairs 180deg from each
> other,
> >> down by the commutator end. Easy enough, right.
> They
> >> are not labelled, I am assuming the two most back
> >> are the Arm bolts and the two inward are the
> Field
> >> bolts. (standard series motor configuration).
> There
> >> is a fifth bolt up by the drive end.
> >>
> >> A1 and F1 are strapped together, A2 and F2 are
> >> strapped together. The battery is connected to
> one
> >> of the A/F bolts and the fifth bolt. Reversing
> >> polarity does NOT reverse drive direction.
> Removing
> >> one of the A/F straps and connecting the battery
> to
> >> an A and an F does nothing.
> >>
> >> The A's and F's are my designations, based on the
> >> series motors I've seen... there are no labels on
> >> this motor.
> >>
> >> Any ideas as to what I have.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Stay Charged!
> >> Hump
> >>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
The only way I have been able to determine this is
load testing and the resultant back calculated
internal resistance is always higher than the
manufacturer's spec. I suggest if you are going to
buy a bunch of batteries, get one first and test it.
Jeff
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunately no. At high rates the battery's
> chemistry is affected in
> a nonlinear manner.
> The battery's response is strongly affected by
> charge state and
> temperature. A cold battery in a partial state of
> charge will have an
> output voltage which "sags" under high current loads
> much more
> dramatically than a warm, full one.
>
> Danny
>
> David Lucente wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > I was wondering if battery voltage drop under a
> certain load can be
> > easily calculated (I'm a novice in electronics)
> Can I just use V=IR
> > where R is the internal resistance of the battery,
> and I is my max
> > controller amps? For example, the resistance of a
> T-105 (taken from
> > the Hemp EV calculator page) is .004. So if I
> draw 500 amps, voltage
> > drop is 500*.004 = 2 volts? Then since I would be
> using 20 batteries,
> > that would be 40 volts total drop. Then to go a
> step further, 120
> > volts nominal - 40 volts drop = 80 volts * 500
> amps = 40 kW max power?
> > I'm not sure if it's as simple as that, but I put
> together a little
> > spreadsheet using these calculations, and the
> difference in total
> > power for different batteries with the same
> starting voltage and max
> > current is pretty dramatic:
> >
> > 120 volts / 500 Amps
> >
> > battery V int.R Vdrop #bats watts HP
> > --------- -- ------ ----- ----- -----
> ----
> > T-105 6 0.0040 2.000 20 40000
> 53.6
> > T-125 6 0.0038 1.900 20 41000
> 55.0
> > T-145 6 0.0036 1.800 20 42000
> 56.3
> > T-875 8 0.0080 4.000 15 30000
> 40.2
> > Opti D750 12 0.0028 1.400 10 53000
> 71.0
> > Conc 12105 12 0.0038 1.900 10 50500
> 67.7
> > HawkCycBC 12 0.0015 0.750 10 56250
> 75.4
> > ExideOrb 12 0.0028 1.400 10 53000
> 71.0
> > UB121100 12 0.0040 2.000 10 50000
> 67.0
> >
> >
> > Can someone set me straight?
> >
> > Thanks
> > David
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Tweety now has over 1500 miles on its odometer. That is averaging
about 500 miles per month that is not going on the Ford Explorer. And…
Tweety is far more fun than the Explorer!
A common scenario seems to keep happening. Someone notices Tweety at a
traffic light and bursts out laughing. The light turns green and their
laughter changes to wide eyed, drop jawed amazement as they watch
Tweety’s brake lights come on at the next light before they hardly get
started. Yesterday, a guy pulls next to me at the light, still with
astonishment all over his face, and says, “Damn, how fast will that
thing go?!” I said,”Hey that was only first gear”.
Then, at an intersection to the IH35 service road, the same thing
happened. A car with a guy and some kids burst out laughing. Only
this time, there were a few cars in front of me. The light changes and
the car with all the laughing took off down the service road towards
the ramp. Finally I got around the “slow” traffic and blasted past the
laughing car going up hill towards the ramp. As I passed, they all did
a double take and then the same classic wide eyes and open mouths.
Another followed me into a parking lot and asked, “How can it run like
that if it’s electric?” I told him that it runs like that BECAUSE it
is electric.
I have been into hot rods all my life, but, I don’t remember ever
having this much fun! And it's not even my car! This is just when
Heidi lets me drive it!
EV grin… Now that’s an understatement!
Ken
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--- Begin Message ---
Your first and second sentences go well together.
I am quite familiar with the GE drive motor. It IS a compound wound motor, the
series field is wired internally, and reversing the shunt field DOES reverse
the direction of rotation. Reversing the field also weakens the series field.
The reason it does this is because the shunt field is much larger than the
series field. I'm thinking the other motor may be the same thing but with a
large series field and a smaller shunt field.
I realize that in these motors the use of the term "shunt field" is probably
not accurate. Should I call it the compensation windings? If the comp is larger
than the series, is it still a comp?
I'm assuming my usage of "larger" or "smaller" in term of the fields are meant
to indicate "amp turns" ratings.
Thanks Jeff,
Stay Charged!
(still learning) Hump
> Subject: RE: motor wiring
>
>
> Tim,
>
> Reversing polarity on a compound motor does not cause
> field weakening and it rotates the same way. These GE
> motors were a strange bunch, in my mind. Two pole
> with compensating windings down the ploe face. Needed
> for commutation over wide field range, I guess.
>
> Shunt fields would be in the 20 to 50 ohm range,
> guessing, so 1 or 2 amps. Series field way less than
> an ohm.
>
> Jeff
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The proportioning valve is also used to counter weight transfer.
When you break the accelleration moves the contact point of the CG with the
ground. This increases the weight on the front axle which allows more
braking on the front axle. This also reduces the chance of the rear
locking-up with front still creating large braking force creating a tendency
for the ends to swap. All this is good but...
If you are rolling backwards then the front is inclined to lock-up and not
much breaking gets down on the rear. As a driver if the handbrake is on the
rear then now is a good time to use it.
Note: While ABS will prevent the lock-up, if the ABS just unloads all
braking then all it does is reduce braking effort available (There are lots
of systems out there like this). For the ABS to be efective in increasing
braking it must seperatly control atleast front and rear, the latest units
do individual wheels so the problem reduces to just effort at the pedal.
My 5 cents worth (New Zealand doesn't have 2c anymore)
Randall Prentice
> "If you have 60-70% of your batteries on the rear
> wheels then remove the rear porportioning valve for
> better braking."
>
> I assume you mean unloaded? It seems like 60-70%
> loaded in the rear would cause your car to be
> unstable, wanting to flip around.
>
> I believe that most car designs target 50%/50%
> front/rear when loaded for optimum traction when
> accelerating, braking and cornering. Light, 4-seat
> front wheel drive gasoline cars will have much higher
> front axle weight when unloaded since most of the
> payload weight is added to the rear axle. Not sure
> about trucks, but I can tell you that 1000 pounds of
> spent floodies in the back of my Dad's gasoline Ranger
> the other day did not drive very straight.
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> "Better yet, get an adjustable racing braking
> proportioning valve."
>
> This is certainly the best solution for any car with
> modified axle weights. I got one when I upgraded from
> front drum to disk and couldn't get a stock
> replacement part, and didn't want a 40 year old used
> one. I dialed it in until the pressure to stop the
> car felt the least -- 6.5 out of 10 turns towards more
> rear brake pressure; not sure what that proportion is.
> Weight distribution is stock + ~35 lbs per axle on
> paper; I need to weigh each axle some day to verify
> but I tried to weigh everything coming off and going
> on. But I still have to do the skid test to make sure
> both axles lock up at the same time.
>
> But at least for cars I suggest maintaining loaded EV
> axle weights to stock and then keeping the original
> proportion.
>
> Chris Jones
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>controller?I suppose if I coulda taken the bearings apart and looked?I
>wonder if the Prius People have taken this one to mind? It;'s my WHEEL
Brushless motors don't really have much of a problem with this.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
what about just bringing it out towards the face plate a little more. Not
quite enought to turn it with a fingernail, but enough you can see the slot
looking down at it from a 45 degree angle?
How about having a toggle switch and two set points, "Normal" and "Equalize".
Then you could leave the pots buried way down in there and hard to get at.
Really the only time I need to routinely change the voltage is during the
monthly equalize.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 10:05 am
Subject: Re: PFC-20
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Bob.. not gonna be any down time here... I will turn it in
> minutes... not
> months...
> My promise...
>
> I will set it for 150 volts...
> And send you a pot screwdriver...
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 5:59 AM
> Subject: Re: PFC-20
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: PFC-20
> >
> >
> > > Maybe something more along the lines of this?
> > >
> > >
> http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/layout.asp?product%5Fid=318X805
> > > Thanks Ryan for the link!
> >
> > But why do I hafta? Dumb design, to begin with! The
> "Floating" pot,
> too.
> > This issue I had before. Rich are ya listing? Put a simple shaft
> extender> and KNOB on the panel, to keep us fumble finger guyz OUT
> of the Green
> > Box!!My biggest beef with a superb charger. All I want to do is
> set the
> high
> > est voltage that I want the charger to go to, then shut off.
> Haven't tried
> > to decipher the timing feature, yet.EVen if it doesn't shut
> down, just
> float
> > the voltage about 150 volts for a 120 volt car.I havent had a
> chance to
> take
> > it apart to TRY to fix it. Don't like to mess with it almost as
> much as
> the
> > damn down time shipping it Out West again.
> >
> > End of Rant
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, there are electronics that can measure battery impedance real
time from no load to full load. I have only seen these when I worked
at Lockheed Martin about 8 years ago. The instrument applies an AC
signal across the battery and measures the current of the AC signal.
Much the same way as an ohm meter, but, since the signal is AC it is
independent of the DC or load on the battery. It is a great instrument
that is used heavily at that shop. I don't remember who the manufacture
was. Never seen one since then.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 8 May 2007 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: estimating power using battery internal resistance values
David Lucente wrote:
I was wondering if battery voltage drop under a certain load can be
easily calculated... Can I just use V=IR where R is the internal
resistance of the battery, and I is my max controller amps?
In theory, yes. But the quoted resistances for various batteries varies
*drastically*. It changes with state of charge, with temperature, with
age of the battery, and many other factors.
The resistance also changes dynamically, from moment to moment. When
you apply a heavy load current, the internal resistance will be quite
low at first, but rise rapidly with time.
This is what makes it so difficult to model the behavior of a real
battery.
-- Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Put a kevlar belt on and turn the zilla up, then you will see fast.
My friends Jelly Bean Sparrow was faster than my Cooper S at redline.
On May 8, 2007, at 11:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tweety now has over 1500 miles on its odometer. That is averaging
about 500 miles per month that is not going on the Ford Explorer.
And… Tweety is far more fun than the Explorer!
A common scenario seems to keep happening. Someone notices Tweety
at a traffic light and bursts out laughing. The light turns green
and their laughter changes to wide eyed, drop jawed amazement as
they watch Tweety’s brake lights come on at the next light before
they hardly get started. Yesterday, a guy pulls next to me at the
light, still with astonishment all over his face, and says, “Damn,
how fast will that thing go?!” I said,”Hey that was only first
gear”.
Then, at an intersection to the IH35 service road, the same thing
happened. A car with a guy and some kids burst out laughing. Only
this time, there were a few cars in front of me. The light changes
and the car with all the laughing took off down the service road
towards the ramp. Finally I got around the “slow” traffic and
blasted past the laughing car going up hill towards the ramp. As I
passed, they all did a double take and then the same classic wide
eyes and open mouths.
Another followed me into a parking lot and asked, “How can it run
like that if it’s electric?” I told him that it runs like that
BECAUSE it is electric.
I have been into hot rods all my life, but, I don’t remember ever
having this much fun! And it's not even my car! This is just when
Heidi lets me drive it!
EV grin… Now that’s an understatement!
Ken
______________________________________________________________________
__
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free from AOL at AOL.com.
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