EV Digest 6756
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: PFC-20
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Doin' the math
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV's on Local Talk Radio
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVLN(Why is Taiwan not leading the world with EV technology?)
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: ExxonMobil's New Generation of Lithium-Ion Battery Separators
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Battery Help Re: Charging timer
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 21 DC motors (bulk) on Ebay
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to build
sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to build
sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor equations
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC-20
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Doin' the math
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Anderson Connector Amp/V Capacity?
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) I'll be in Germany in June, Bill Dube'
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 21 DC motors (bulk) on Ebay
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Motor equations
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Belleville washer details
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
19) RE: Motor equations
by "Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) More on NiMH
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) FS: never used PFC20 with buck enhancement
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Questions regarding an EV
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Belleville washer details
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor equations
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Touch only the pot screw/. It's brass.
touching anything else inside the charger.. like the fan drive FET about 1
inch down, The chips or resistors on the bottom of the controller PCB or the
top of the power pcb is going to short that circuit to the case that is AC
grounded.
It takes quite a bit of hunting around inside the charger to find these
points. This is NOT a common event, about 2 in 6 years of chargers.
The pot adjust slot is supposed to be centered in the blue pannel drilled
hole marked Volts trim.
I suggest you keep it there and bend it back if it gets bumped.
Of course if you have your charger installed so you have to stand on your
head in a rain storm every time you want to trim the votlage... Not messing
up the pot may be a tough thing to do.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: PFC-20
> On May 8, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Yup.. I just fixed one from RENO.. metal screw driver shorts the
> > Fan drive
> > to case... if case is grounded... Bad thing happen.
> >
> > They ate there fans and Fet drive... Power stage staid alive.
> > Yea it's pretty much a Rich Fix thing....
> >
> > I use a Spectrol plastic pot tuning screw driver. It don't short a
> > thing!
>
> Uh Rich!
>
> That is the first I've heard about this. I've been adjusting mine
> with a small screwdriver (real one, made of metal.)
>
> Please tell, what is it that I don't want to connect to what?
> Detailed points please. I've had no issues using my small screwdriver
> - my PFC-20 is safe and sound. The charger is connected to a grounded
> 120 vac plug but the buggy is not grounded (the charger is not yet
> inside the car.)
>
> Thanx,
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Hump,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Doin' the math
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 9:51:12 -0600
>I just got done with this conversation with a co-worker....
>
>It's funny the way we work things out.
>
>I have done (really rough) estimated total ownership costs.
>
>It's true, 6v GC batts are the cheapest.
By far they are both the cheapest and most range for
the weight of lead batts if you have 60+ mile range of them.
If going for only a 10-20 mile range, then because
you would be abusing the batteries, AGM's start looking good
but as it costs about the same as a 60 mile GC bat pack but
you only get 20 mile from the AGM pack. I know which ones
I'm going for!! Once you get in the 100 mile range, GC batts
are easiuly the best. And personally I'd rather put in a
little water occassionally instead of having to throw away
an AGM.
>
>But then "we" decide we don't want to deal with the hassle
>of maintenance required by flooded lead and we "KNOW" that
>lithium or nickel is more expensive than lead so we load
>our cars up with "maintenance free" Optima's or the like.
While AGM's MAY not need acid cleanup, easy with just
the spray of a hose, they need much more regulators, more
expensive charger, balancing work and not to mention the
extra cost, time this takes.
>
>Guess what!
You found out that for 1/2hr battery work/month ,you
got paid $25/hr in savings Vs an AGM!!! And one should check
even AGM's once a month!!
>
>Optimas are the MOST EXPENSIVE solution. Almost thrice the
>total cost of lithium; and that's if you do the 5 lifetime
>replacements yourself and put zero value on your time to do
>it.
Not sure about Lithiums yet as real data will need
yrs to find out in real life, but Ni-cads are easily less
expensive than AGM's, much longer range, with no drop in
power, cap with cold weather.
>
>
>Out to 150,000 miles or more "my" estimated cost goes; from
>least to most.... (fixed width font)
>
>Battery $ per mile
>
>GC's .08
>Lithium .09
>NiMH .10
>Orbital .11
>NiCad .21
>Optima .27
Not sure how Orbitals were less costly than Optimas?
They are about the same costs. Nor would I bet Li, NiMH be
that low in real life. Lab results are rarely reached in the
real world.
>
>
>What "we" really need is what Victor said years ago.... A
>paradigm shift, prepaying for energy. Accept the fact that
>your batteries are a very large portion of your energy cost
>, and not just a storage device. A large upfront cost will
>pay off in the long run. Much like solar, wind etc.
Or you can buy GC batts at a much less cost and be
cost effective now!!
But the best way to save on batteries is by having a
real EV low drag, lightweight glider to start with. By
having a 550-600 lb glider before batteries, you can get
over 100 mile range, low battery cost by needing a much
smaller batt pack, you can have an EV that's is cost
effective vs even an ICE. For them, GC battery cost is more
like $.04/mile
On AGM's supposedly longer range in conversions, while
it looks like floodeds have more usable amphrs, that only
true at very high amp drains. If one was to lower the drain
in amps, you would find out you still have the cap in the
floodeds, you just can't draw it out in high amp draws. But
by going slower or stopping for a while, you will find as
the charge comes back to the surface of the plates, you can
go farther than AGM's.
Even good real deep cycle 12v floodeds, if you are in
a low drag lightweight EV, they can do well in range. It's
when you have a too small pack, under 20-25% vehicle vs
battery weight, that they don't work well through abuse.
Jerry Dycus
>
>--
>Stay Charged!
>Hump
>I-5, Blossvale NY
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, May 9, 2007 1:37 pm, Marty Hewes wrote:
> You may want to mention that in cases like here in Illinois, over half of
> our electricity production is nuke, and therefore likely has a much
> reduced carbon footprint. Of course it may just open the door to a
> nuclear waste argument. Maybe I can claim that I'm driving an atomic car?
>
> Marty
If you want to play around with "what ifs", you can search for "PBS Carbon
Footprint". You can try out different states, and different ICE mileages.
(Offset, presumably, by bumping your kWh figure.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, May 10, 2007 10:56 am, bruce parmenter wrote:
> If you don't believe it's possible, take a look at Phoenix
> Motorcars electric trucks (www.phoenixmotorcars.com), the
> electric sports cars from Tesla and Venturi (www.teslamotors.com, and
> www.venturi.fr) and Zap scooters (www.zapworld.com).
Before Tony (and other journalists) tell us to look at "all the cars
available", they might try actually buying/using one. Vaporware isn't any
easier to live with, when it comes from head-in-the-clouds (or head
<elsewhere>) journalists.
...or maybe he is driving a Tesla???
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I never would have guessed they had any involvement
> in batteries... a petroleum link in the batteries?
Exxon is a huge multinational aggregate. It might be easier to list the
things in which they are NOT involved than those in which they ARE
involved. Plastic batteries, plastic grid plates, plastic valves,
plastic caps... all these things come from oil in some form or another.
Unless we build our EVs out of personally-harvested mud, straw, and spit
(I know some of you DRIVE Sparrows, but do they nest?), I imagine they
will have oil-related plastic, fabric, rubber, and etc. I'm not planning
on running knob-and-tube conductors in my EV, so I'm planning to be
quietly appreciative of the plastic insulation on the cables. :p
It is easy to crucify oil, Big Oil, and the automakers, but pretty hard
to live a life entirely without oil in some form or another.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't use Dip SW #2 because 150 minutes isn't enough time to complete a
charge cycle.
I am having this problem now that my batteries are just coming up shy of the
acceptance voltage and I'm having to watch the KillaWatt meter and manually
shut it off after 4-6 hours.
Its time to run my 6 week equalize charge but I can't even get the voltage up
to Acceptance. The batteries are not getting significantly hot by the time I
should be at Acceptance. Is there something other than Thermal Runnaway that
would prevent the battery voltages from rising to at least an acceptance level.
I refilled water for my 6 week interval. Battery temps are running 75*F to
90*F. My pack is twenty Crown CR-225's, 5 months old.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:22 am
Subject: Re: Charging timer
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Chirrs and EVlisters..
>
> Dip Switch #2 starts the timer on power up.. and there is no way
> to clear
> it.
> This feature has been in ALL PFC chargers since day one.
>
> Most don't use it, relying on the voltage peak to start the timer.
>
> What we will have on the next controller is a voltage peak with
> latch. This
> allows for just about any length of time, But once the voltage
> peak is met
> it will time out even if the voltage falls.
>
> And.. if you fail to set a charger....anybodies charger correctly
> you can
> start a thermal runaway event.
>
> If one starts as you said, before the voltage peak is met.. then
> you are
> going to have problems.
>
> To trap this you need a Power on timer, and a peak detect timer..
> and you
> have to program them so one catches the other.. and you should
> have a
> thermal feed back sensor in the battery pack... preferably on every
> battery... to trap a thermal event..
> Just like you have to do with Lions and NiMh packs. We have
> support for the
> need, But no demands....
>
> Funny how that goes...
>
> I specifically allow for restart events to clear the timer and
> also to have
> the charger hang in voltage peak hold for unlimited times..
> Because of
> demand for that feature.
>
> What works for one does not work for all. It's up to the user to
> ask or make
> sure of what feature they need.
> The installer is responsible for checking that the charger
> functions as
> required by the battery technology.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> m>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:14 AM
> Subject: Charging timer
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm getting my charging setup in order. My charger is an early
> PFC-20
> > Buck Enhanced. It was a surprise to some on the list awhile
> back that
> > the "start timer when acceptance voltage is reached" mode does *not*
> > necessarily turn off the charger. If your pack is in thermal
> runaway> (or even a mild "walkaway"), the voltage can drop below
> the acceptance
> > voltage and the timer disengages. The consequences can range from
> > annoying to spectacular.
> >
> > I think Rich changed it in later versions so once the timer
> comes on
> > it stays on. (Rich?) Of course even that doesn't help you if
> thermal> runaway starts before you reach acceptance voltage.
> >
> > I'm looking for a timer to put on the charger's AC side. The fact
> > that the charger runs on a variety of input voltages and draws a
> > maximum of 28 amps is severely limiting my options. The only thing
> > I've found so far is from McMaster-Carr:
> >
> > Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search on 7672K56.
> >
> > It's actually not a bad fit. It's reasonably compact,
> mechanical (so
> > it doesn't care what voltage is running through it), and has
> contacts> rated for 28 amps, the maximum I can pull. The price is
> a little
> > steep, but McM-C is hardly the place to shop for bargains.
> >
> > Does anyone have any other suggestions? I was kinda hoping
> there was
> > a tidy little industrial doohickey, maybe compact enough to be DIN
> > rail mounted, but so far no luck.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
160112447624
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as I know, the patent involes building the cells, not how you use
them. Selling the finished product my be an issue, or not.
But even if it is, it only matters if they go after you.
> 100 x 10 A D size cells in a string. Result is 120 V
> / 10 A. Polyswitch (Raychem / Tyco) rated 13 A
> continuous / 23 peak in line + diode and 1.0 A / ??
> Peak polyswitch going the other way for charge and
> cross flow of current between modules.
>
> 10 of these = 120 V / 100 A (real world) and would
> give my car a 65 - 75 mile range with about 1000
> charge / discharge cycles.
>
> The hooks are:
>
> 1. You need something to buffer the high surge
> currents - Hawker D cell modules parallel string of
> two But that's not cheap.
>
> 2. It's about $6500 in material cost alone and you
> need to rent / but a parallel resiatance welder - used
> $2.5 - 3 k. Rent - ??? Anyone have friends in the
> cellpack welding business.
>
>
> Not that I would do this, but its out there as an
> option if its still legal with the patent issues.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Hawker D-cells have both terminals on the same end of the battery.
Bill was using Bolder TMF cells.
> This sounds like the early Killacycle...looked like it was powered by pipe
> bombs...Bill Dube can elaborate, but I believe it used the old Hawker
> D-cell
> type sealed lead acid batteries.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael Barkley
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:51 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to build
> sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
>
>> 2. It's about $6500 in material cost alone and you
>> need to rent / but a parallel resiatance welder -
>> used
>> $2.5 - 3 k. Rent - ??? Anyone have friends in the
>> cellpack welding business.
>>
>
> Could the string of D'cells, be stacked on top of each
> other in a PVC pipe, with spring loaded endcaps to
> keep them securely connected? Maybe even lube the
> entire mass of batteries in the pipe with a non
> conducting compound (something similiar to what is in
> outdoor wire splices). That would keep the battery
> contacts from corroding, might even prevent any
> possible arcing. Heck, that compound would also help
> with heat sinking any generated heat to the PVC pipe.
> Sure would make it easy to replace a cell or two if
> some failed. Pack all the individual tubes into
> another larger PVC pipe or box to make the whole
> battery pack a solid unit.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What causes acceleration is Torque. The given power (HP) at any instant
is what is needed to overcome losses and plus the ammount needed change
your energy state.
You are right that at zero RPM you produce zero HP, but wrong about
torque. You can have huge ammounts of torque at zero RPM, this is what
breaks things.
Any drag racer will tell you; acceleration is about torque, specifically
wheel torque, and your ability to get said torque to the pavement
(traction).
Generally speaking you will be OFF the charts if you have a controller
with any decent current limit (at least the typical charts). Yes your
voltage will be below the voltage used in the charts, but your current
will be way higher than the charts go.
Look at the charts and try to find the point where the motor is drawing
1,000 amps.
The point where you come out of current limit is where you start to fall
back down onto the charts.
> So when you pull away from a stop at your chosen current limit, your
> torque
> is more or less constant, until you reach the voltage and RPM on the
> curve,
> but what accelerates you is HP (watts)?, which is relative to that torque
> and whatever RPM your drivetrain allows, right? So the only point you
> would
> actually get the HP on the curve is at the point the controller hits the
> voltage specified in the graph (where you reach the RPM on the graph)?
>
> I'm confused. I'm starting with the assumption that the more watts you
> can
> get to the wheels, the more acceleration you will experience. Seems
> logical, but the math fails me. I'm struggling with the idea that HP is
> directly related to watts (implied by the formula 1KW = Horsepower x
> 0.746),
> and HP is a product of torque and RPM (Torque x Engine speed) / 5,252 =
> Horsepower). It kinda sounds like at zero RPM, you'd have no HP, draw no
> watts (thus no current), produce no torque, and go nowhere. But we know
> that's not true. Do electric motors use a different formula where they
> can
> produce HP, and therefore apply wattage to the rear wheels at zero RPM?
> Someone please show me where I'm going off track, this is driving me nuts.
>
> TIA,
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> Hi Marty,
>
> The motor performance curves can be "calculated" or
> "tested". You describe pretty well how the tested
> curve is generated from test data taken on a
> dynamometer. The dyno will have a torque sensor of
> some type, so output power is calculated from the
> measured torque and RPM.
>
> If your controller limits battery current, then it
> will not be a "straight up and down line".
>
> The power out or horsepower shown on the curve is only
> for the voltage at which the curve was generated.
> When you are in current limit, the controller is
> reducing the voltage to the motor, so the horsepower
> and speed of the motor are less than shown on the
> curve. Once out of current limit and the controller
> is applying maximum voltage to the motor, you should
> follow the speed and power curve closely. As you
> accelerate, the RPM increases and current, torque and
> power decrease, as shown on the curve.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Speaking of these curves, correct me if I'm wrong,
>> before I do something
>> stupid and expensive.
>>
>> The way these curves are generated is?
>>
>> Apply the specified voltage to the motor while
>> Applying physical load until a given current is
>> reached at the specified
>> voltage
>> Measure Torque
>> Measure RPM
>> Calculate HP based on torque and RPM?
>> Or measure HP and RPM and calculate torque?
>> Calculate efficiency based on watts in and HP out?
>>
>> This appears to be abstract to use because in
>> practice, we tend to limit
>> current and let volts rise with RPM until we can't
>> achieve the chosen
>> current? So we're really operating in a straight up
>> and down line at
>> constant torque and increasing HP beneath our chosen
>> current point until we
>> hit the point where we're back EMF limited and the
>> current drops with
>> further RPM increase? So we will only see the HP
>> listed on the graph for a
>> moment as we hit pack voltage = motor voltage before
>> current drops?
>>
>> TIA,
>> Marty
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Peterson"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: Motor equations
>>
>>
>> > Yup, that helps me understand how the concepts
>> relate to the curves. Now
>> > all I have to do is figure out how to model the
>> curves. Many thanks.
>> > --Steve
>> >
>> > On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 08:32 -0700, Jeff Major
>> wrote:
>> >> Hi Steve,
>> >>
>> >> Good question.
>> >>
>> >> The plots you refer to are amps vs torque and RPM
>> vs
>> >> torque. So this makes it a combination of the
>> two
>> >> basic equations. Plus the fact that the torque
>> in the
>> >> equation is the *electromagnetic torque* and not
>> the
>> >> output torque. The plots use output torque which
>> >> accounts for losses (friction, windage and core).
>> >> These losses are significant at light loads on
>> the
>> >> series motor where RPM is high. This tends to
>> >> straighten out the amp vs torque curve, but it
>> still
>> >> bends down somewhat at light loads.
>> >>
>> >> Also, the Eg in the equation is the generated
>> voltage
>> >> or back EMF and not the applied voltage. So one
>> has
>> >> to account for the resistance and brush drop.
>> These
>> >> are low at light loads so affect the RPM vs
>> torque in
>> >> the opposite manner.
>> >>
>> >> Hopes that helps.
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Thanks, Jeff...
>> >> >
>> >> > Your explanation makes sense, but leaves me
>> with a
>> >> > new question:
>> >> >
>> >> > If Torque is proportional to Flux, and Flux
>> varies
>> >> > with the current, why
>> >> > is the ADC torque vs. amps curve darned near
>> linear
>> >> > while the rpm vs
>> >> > torque curves have a "deep" bend in them?
>> >> >
>> >> > --Steve
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:15 -0700, Jeff Major
>> wrote:
>> >> > > Steve,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > RPM = Ks * Eg / Flux
>> >> > >
>> >> > > where Ks = machine constant (including units
>> >> > > conversion), Eg = generated voltage.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Torque = Kt * Ia * Flux
>> >> > >
>> >> > > where Kt = machine constant (including units
>> >> > > conversion), Ia = armature current.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Although equations appear linear, the Flux is
>> not
>> >> > a
>> >> > > linear function of current for the series
>> motor
>> >> > due to
>> >> > > saturation, so the Torque vs RPM
>> characteristic is
>> >> > > curved.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Jeff
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> __________________________________________________
>> >> Do You Yahoo!?
>> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> protection around
>> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One could use an insulated screwdriver which should be available at any
good hardware store. You could improvise one by adding plastic sleeving
on the screw driver shank.
Better yet, have a set of insulated screwdrivers and other tools for use on
your EV and other electrical and electronic equipment.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: PFC-20
Touch only the pot screw/. It's brass.
touching anything else inside the charger.. like the fan drive FET about 1
inch down, The chips or resistors on the bottom of the controller PCB or
the
top of the power pcb is going to short that circuit to the case that is AC
grounded.
It takes quite a bit of hunting around inside the charger to find these
points. This is NOT a common event, about 2 in 6 years of chargers.
The pot adjust slot is supposed to be centered in the blue pannel drilled
hole marked Volts trim.
I suggest you keep it there and bend it back if it gets bumped.
Of course if you have your charger installed so you have to stand on your
head in a rain storm every time you want to trim the votlage... Not
messing
up the pot may be a tough thing to do.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: PFC-20
On May 8, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Yup.. I just fixed one from RENO.. metal screw driver shorts the
> Fan drive
> to case... if case is grounded... Bad thing happen.
>
> They ate there fans and Fet drive... Power stage staid alive.
> Yea it's pretty much a Rich Fix thing....
>
> I use a Spectrol plastic pot tuning screw driver. It don't short a
> thing!
Uh Rich!
That is the first I've heard about this. I've been adjusting mine
with a small screwdriver (real one, made of metal.)
Please tell, what is it that I don't want to connect to what?
Detailed points please. I've had no issues using my small screwdriver
- my PFC-20 is safe and sound. The charger is connected to a grounded
120 vac plug but the buggy is not grounded (the charger is not yet
inside the car.)
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> First it is a lofty goal, 50kwh/250wh/mile is 200 miles range. but with
>> over 5000lbs of lead on board you won't get 250wh/mile
>
> Well first of all, Its not 5000lbs, its less than 3000. :)
I believe he was refering to a pack that could DELIVER 50kw at EV power
rates.
The 20 hr rate on Lead-Acid batteries is USELESS for comparing batteries
at EV rates.
> Also, I was using the 20 Hour rate for both, so although I am sure the
> 1 hour rates will differ, I wanted to spend less than 5 hours doing
> the research and so I settled for rough numbers.
Yes significantly. At EV rates (typicalls 1-2 hrs) Lead-Acid batteries
typically deliver between 40% and 70% of the 20 hr rated capacity.
These particular batteries are probably around 50-60%.
LiIon/LiPol on the other hand deliver at or close to 100% of their 20 hr
rated capacity. Most are rated at 1hr discharges and simply divide that
by 20 for the 20 hr rate.
> that lighter = more range, but again that would have become very
> complex very quickly and I just wanted to do a quick consumer
> comparison.
Unfortunately, you skipped so many steps that the information is basically
wrong and of little to no value.
Sort of like a farmer calculating how much it would cost to grow different
crops by just comparing seed prices and ignoring the costs of watering,
fertilizing, tending and harvesting.
>
> I wasn't trying to do an exhaustive review.. just a ballpark
> estimation based on a few rough numbers. I don't think anyone will
> argue that Lithium is just not cheap enough yet to use in a conversion
> and have the price be anything near reasonable considering return!
True, but you could have just said that from the begining and left it at
that. Trying to justify a statement with false data, well it just makes
the statement look false.
> Also, the Lithium manufacturers need to come clean in the spec sheets
> about permanent capacity loss during use.
Hange around the list for a while and you'll learn about the three kinds
of liars:
Liars, Damn Liars, and Battery Salesmen.
> And Tim H., unless the new Lithium chems have gotten rid of that
> annoying 5% loss per year of permanent capacity, you'll lose 5% of
> your range every year no matter what you do, and you'll be below 80%
> before you do 100,000, let alone 150,000.
Except that many (most?) LiIon batteries are rated at their capacity after
x number of years. I.e. their ratings claim that after 4 (or 5) years
they will produce at LEAST X AH capacity.
Well, except for some of the Chinese manufacturers, which rate their cells
highly idealized rates, maybe something like the rate of the best cell
ever tested. Honesty and quality appear to be concepts that the Chinese
(as a whole) are slow to adopt.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking for a manual pack disconnect and have seen some use the
Anderson connectors but they only go to 350A continuous, except for
the SBE700 which is hard to find and most likely very expensive. So
how are people using the 350A connector when using the full power of
a Zilla 1K/ Warp with and a large pack voltage. Is this due to the
short term high-current demand? I would like to do this to
disconnect sections of the pack or a packaged box for servicing. Any
suggestions or experience for high demand but not racing use.
Thanks
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too late but some one seems to have gotten a deal-$390
plus shipping.
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 160112447624
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ...in practice, we tend to limit current and let volts rise
> with RPM until we can't achieve the chosen current? So we're
> really operating in a straight up and down line at constant
> torque and increasing HP beneath our chosen current point
> until we hit the point where we're back EMF limited and the
> current drops with further RPM increase?
Is this really the case -- do folks really run a light switch (FLOORED
or not)? If that's the case, then I definitely understand why Jerry
likes his contactor controllers so much!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Did anyone ever measure the electro-magnetic field level at the driver's
seat in a typical EV (car) for both rear and front mounted motors?
Thanks
--
Patrick Robin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Deanne,
Get belleville washers that are the same size as the diameter of the threaded
portion of the bolt or stud.
The inside and outside diameters are given but usually you can just order them
buy the screw size.
5/16" belleville washers are a little more than 1/2" outside diameter.
Stainless is nice, steel will work.
Tighten them by snugging them up and turning them down until you feel the
turning force jump up.
As you tighten the nut and compress the washer, the twisting force feels the
same.
You can feel the twisting force jump up just as you bottom out the washer. It's
less than a turn.
Actually, if you have a small torque wrench with a dial, you can see the torque
stay constant then jump up.
Nut bears against convex side of the belleville washer, concave side of
belleville washer bears against stainless steel flat washer that bears against
the lug.
The flat washer distributes the pressure from the rim of the belleville washer
evenly across the face of the softer metal of the lug or post.
Stainless flat washer works best and a regular steel belleville washer is fine.
Don't use regular lock washers and use the belleville washers with flat washers
so they can deflect and the rims don't dig in.
You still have to check the connections regularly.
The belleville washers give you a little more time to catch a connection
becoming loose.
Hope this helps,
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I want to put some Belleville washers on my batteries but being
> mechanically challenged, I have some questions. I know this is a
> simple thing but I don't want to melt a post again... I have Trojan
> T125's with the UT Universal Terminal. I checked the Fastenal website
> and there's lot of choices...
>
> 1. Do I get the same size as the nut on the battery post? (5/8")
> 2. Material: stainless steel, black steel, or something different?
> 3. How tight do I tighten them?
> 4. Does the convex side go against the nut or the battery?
>
> Also, the other day I heard split spring washers mentioned, these seem
> to be different to me. Which is better?
>
> thanks - De
> --
> "That car has some get-up-and go and it don't make no racket."
> -Richard Petty, after driving Shocker, Northhampton East HS's EV Grand
> Prix winner
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. A PWM controller with battery and motor current limits is not
equivalent to connecting the battery pack or some portion of it to the
motor like a light switch. The current to the motor is limited and the
voltage to the motor rises as RPMs increase by controlling the amount of
time the full battery pack voltage is connected to the motor. With a
contactor you get full battery voltage and uncontrolled current so for
starting the contactors only switch in a low voltage to limit the
current to the motor. As RPMs rise the contactors switch in more
voltage to keep the current and torque up. The throttle on a PWM
controller essentially controls the current limit up to the preset
limits.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Randy Burleson
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Motor equations
> ...in practice, we tend to limit current and let volts rise with RPM
> until we can't achieve the chosen current? So we're really operating
> in a straight up and down line at constant torque and increasing HP
> beneath our chosen current point until we hit the point where we're
> back EMF limited and the current drops with further RPM increase?
Is this really the case -- do folks really run a light switch (FLOORED
or not)? If that's the case, then I definitely understand why Jerry
likes his contactor controllers so much!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now on e-bay ...
200 Pcs D Size 14000mAh NiMH Rechargeable Batteries
Item number: 110110553501
$1000 for 200 pcs of 14 AH
Basically, $3700 for 735 cells.
105 * 7 = 735
120 V (actually a little higher, but the estra 5 per
string are for correct buffer with AGM), 98 AH.
So, it can be done, and that is less than the
equivilent $ for Optimas.
My car id 220 Wh / mile, so that would be a real world
53 mile range capable for 1000 charge / recharge
cycles. Thets at least 40 - 50k miles on the pack
.... Makes you think. Now how much would that cost
in Optimas ...
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got the PFC20 when I thought dealing with Pennsylvania motor vehicle
code was going to be simpler; turned into a pain.
So I have a new unused never installed buck-enhanced PFC20 for $1800; Let
me know if you're interested.
I also have 10 Mk2 (maybe Mk2b, I can check) regs, same deal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
> There may be someone local that may be able to do something in
> regards to it, need to go to a demo somewhere. I will take a
> look at that site in the hope of getting an idea on the plates.
Adaptor plates can be made by local machine shops. I had mine made by David
Probin from Prolec Engineering in Castle Hill.
> BTW I live in Western Sydney.
You might like to come along to a meeting of Sydney AEVA. See here for future
meeting details, and also links to some local suppliers:
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been wondering the same thing, so I'm glad you
asked. I want to use them for automotive posts though
so I'd imagine they'd end up being tiny.
I did have a chat once with some local EVers about
this issue. One had tons BB600 cells in a Chevy G-Van
with belleville washers on all the connecting bars(he
said the watering took more than a day)and what we
determined was you want the Belleville washer because
it keeps an even downward pressure on the connector no
matter what, and it can expand and contract with the
little bit of thermal expansion and contraction that
does occur. Also, it can allow the terminal to move a
little bit, which is going to happen no matter what.
Considerations, you need the center hole to fit your
nut obviously. The outer diameter you'd want to not be
too large that it doesn't make contact with the post.
You need to get stainless steel as well otherwise
they'll dissolve around the battery acid. Also, the
thickness of the washer is also determinant as to how
much pressure it applies.
So I understand the theory (anyone please correct me
if I'm wrong), I suppose the question is what spec
washer is the common one that is used for EV
application?
I was kind of thinking you'd have to maybe use two
flat washers on either side of the belleville with an
automotive post to get enough tension on it.
As far as how much to tighten them I'd go with
whatever Trojan says for tightness, I believe it's
something like 70 in/lbs, but thats off the top of my
head.
Later,
Rick
92 Saturn SC conversion
AZ Alt Fuel plate "ZEROGAS"
> > Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 13:49:48 -0400
> From: "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Belleville washer details
>
> I want to put some Belleville washers on my
> batteries but being
> mechanically challenged, I have some questions. I
> know this is a
> simple thing but I don't want to melt a post
> again... I have Trojan
> T125's with the UT Universal Terminal. I checked
> the Fastenal website
> and there's lot of choices...
>
> 1. Do I get the same size as the nut on the battery
> post? (5/8")
> 2. Material: stainless steel, black steel, or
> something different?
> 3. How tight do I tighten them?
> 4. Does the convex side go against the nut or the
> battery?
>
> Also, the other day I heard split spring washers
> mentioned, these seem
> to be different to me. Which is better?
>
> thanks - De
> --
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Randii,
That's not quite how I meant it, although with a fairly low power system,
that might be about it, and some low cost systems make due that way. What I
meant, for example, I suspect I'd try to limit my draw to 400 amps or less
for normal driving, so through first gear, I'd pretty much keep the
controller at 300 or 350 amps and let the speed climb until I slightly
passed the RPM curve on the charts at that current (for the sake of getting
decent acceleration without trashing the batteries), then shift to second
and do it again. It looks like constant current is better on the batteries
than trying to maintain constant acceleration, which would require a lot of
current at very low speeds. What I meant by operating in a straight line on
the chart was that I think that means I'd be running constant torque with
rising RPM, motor voltage, and horsepower until I hit the RPM line. If I
get around to drag racing this thing, and I can afford good enough
batteries, I'd probably put the Zilla at 900 amps and do pretty much the
same thing, if the tires stay hooked up. Either way I'm driving more or
less at a constant current, but not necessarily maximum. But I know where
you're coming from. I still wonder if I should have just used a 500 amp
controller and a bypass contactor. Do you really need incremental control
between 500 amps and 1000 amps? With a 4 barrel on an ICE, do you ever have
the secondaries half way open? On the other hand, if you can afford a
decent 500 amp controller, a 1K Zilla doesn't seem to cost that much more,
so I went that way.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: Motor equations
...in practice, we tend to limit current and let volts rise
with RPM until we can't achieve the chosen current? So we're
really operating in a straight up and down line at constant
torque and increasing HP beneath our chosen current point
until we hit the point where we're back EMF limited and the
current drops with further RPM increase?
Is this really the case -- do folks really run a light switch (FLOORED
or not)? If that's the case, then I definitely understand why Jerry
likes his contactor controllers so much!
Randii
--- End Message ---
