EV Digest 6776
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Solar boat completes Atlantic crossing - Green Machines -
MSNBC.com
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Solar powered craft
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AGNS has new motors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Charging timer
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Solar boat completes Atlantic crossing - Green Machines -
MSNBC.com
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Shave My Adapter?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: LTC - Lithium Technology Corp. Lithium batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Permanent magnet motor question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Not to diss this guy, but had he a clipper ship, or just a good SAIL
> boat, cat, if you will, he woulda been here MONTHS ago. Or I believe a 12
> day sailing record STILL stands, not sure if it was a clipper or fancy
> Catamaran? I think ROWING guyz have made better time?
A British four-man crew set a world record for rowing across the Atlantic,
crossing the ocean in 39 days to win the Atlantic Rowing Race on Sunday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/rowing/4576918.stm
Peyron and his crew took four days eight hours and 23 minutes 54 seconds
to sail from New York to Cornwall.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/sailing/5156492.stm
...but the point was he could do it at all. (Kontiki sailed it quicker.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you fit 3kW of panels on a boat that small?
On Mon, May 14, 2007 6:08 pm, GWMobile wrote:
> Fwded
>
>
> Subject: Gravitational Propulsion, Re: Group Update, Solar Powered
> Craft, Security concerns.
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:16:22 -0000
>
>
> This is just to announce that the solar powered craft mentioned in the
> below post has made the journey and actually proved the great potential of
> use of solar power in ocean going vessels, Here is a link to a news story
> about the voyage;
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18571845/
>
>
> Also if you go to the link below about the craft there are new updates
> that bring all up to speed on this story. This is a proof of concept that
> points in many directions, on Earth, and hopefully on into space as well,
> as the conversion of electrical energy into propulsive force in space is
> demonstrated. Wonderful. The Sun shines on us all. The best things in life
> are free...
>
> Mystery B-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The battery current draw for a drag race can be roughly modeled as a
ramp with plateau.
If you do the calculations, you will very quickly discover that good
quality AGM lead-acid batteries, like Hawker Genisys batteries, are
far better than any capacitor on the market for drag racing. They are
also a lot less expensive. It is all about W/kg and W-hrs/kg. You
need some of both.
Do the calculation and you will see for yourself. The caps (of all
types and brands) just don't have the specific energy needed to get
to the end of the track. Only very few (if any in reality) have as
much specific power as A123 Systems cells (~4,000 W/kg when heated).
Bill Dube'
At 02:12 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
Why would the controller be stepping down the voltage when you are
launching at full-throttle?
It is just at this point that the battery voltage sags trying to
deliver all its amps, and when the caps will provide the boost in
volts and amps.
I agree that the caps must have low resistance, there are many
high-capacity caps that are not designed for high-current and have
high resistance. I didn't look at the audio caps, but the 400F Ness
caps I mentioned have only 3.8Mohm.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Marty Hewes wrote:
How about for street use, with a string of caps in parallel with
GC batteries? It might just be a way to get 1K amps for the first
few seconds without toasting the batteries?
The idea has merit, but I don't think this particular combination
would work very well.
When you first start out, the battery current won't be anything
close to 1000 amps; it will be 100-200 at most. That's because the
controller is stepping the voltage down, and thus current up, into
the initially stopped motor. Even a Zilla producing 2000 motor amps
won't draw over 200 battery amps initially. Golf cart batteries
don't have any problem supplying this kind of current; so the
capacitors provide no benefit.
As the motor speeds up, its voltage rises, so the battery current
goes up (assuming the controller is in current limit). The battery
current *gradually* rises, which is not a good situation for having
the capacitors supply it. So, the batteries will still supply most of it.
For the capacitors to provide a strong benefit, you would need to
use exceptionally low-resistance capacitors with exceptionally
high-resistance batteries. For instance, the capacitors would help
when the golf cart batteries are almost dead, because their
internal resistance will be so much higher.
Or, you could use a separate controller or DC/DC converter for the
batteries and capacitors. This way you can control which one
supplies the current. The one for the batteries would have to allow
for the large voltage change versus state of charge for the capacitors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:12:34 -0700
Why would the controller be stepping down the voltage when you are
launching at full-throttle?
That's because ( as Lee said) the motor voltage is very low. Since the
motor is stopped ( or turning very slowly) the back EMF is very low, so even
a low voltage at the motor terminals results in very high current ( and,
very high torque).
The controller keeps the motor voltage low so as to stay within its current
limit.
Phil Marino
It is just at this point that the battery voltage sags trying to deliver
all its amps, and when the caps will provide the boost in volts and amps.
I agree that the caps must have low resistance, there are many
high-capacity caps that are not designed for high-current and have high
resistance. I didn't look at the audio caps, but the 400F Ness caps I
mentioned have only 3.8Mohm.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Marty Hewes wrote:
How about for street use, with a string of caps in parallel with GC
batteries? It might just be a way to get 1K amps for the first few
seconds without toasting the batteries?
The idea has merit, but I don't think this particular combination would
work very well.
When you first start out, the battery current won't be anything close to
1000 amps; it will be 100-200 at most. That's because the controller is
stepping the voltage down, and thus current up, into the initially stopped
motor. Even a Zilla producing 2000 motor amps won't draw over 200 battery
amps initially. Golf cart batteries don't have any problem supplying this
kind of current; so the capacitors provide no benefit.
As the motor speeds up, its voltage rises, so the battery current goes up
(assuming the controller is in current limit). The battery current
*gradually* rises, which is not a good situation for having the capacitors
supply it. So, the batteries will still supply most of it.
For the capacitors to provide a strong benefit, you would need to use
exceptionally low-resistance capacitors with exceptionally high-resistance
batteries. For instance, the capacitors would help when the golf cart
batteries are almost dead, because their internal resistance will be so
much higher.
Or, you could use a separate controller or DC/DC converter for the
batteries and capacitors. This way you can control which one supplies the
current. The one for the batteries would have to allow for the large
voltage change versus state of charge for the capacitors.
_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? Youll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"to stay within its current limit", so why do you build a dragster that
has a current limit and needs to be throttled down.
You should then use multiple motors to multiply the current.
Basically what I hear you and Bill saying is that we are optimizing our
drag cars to use batteries, when in fact you can go faster if you
optimize them to use caps. Now caps are of course relatively very
expensive, but on the other hand, they should last 10-100 times longer
than the abused expensive batteries currently being used.
One thing about power, is that at the end of a 1/4 mile any power left
in the batteries has been wasted. Unless you are draining 100% of them
during the run, there is room for improvement.
Jack Murray
Phil Marino wrote:
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:12:34 -0700
Why would the controller be stepping down the voltage when you are
launching at full-throttle?
That's because ( as Lee said) the motor voltage is very low. Since the
motor is stopped ( or turning very slowly) the back EMF is very low, so
even a low voltage at the motor terminals results in very high current (
and, very high torque).
The controller keeps the motor voltage low so as to stay within its
current limit.
Phil Marino
It is just at this point that the battery voltage sags trying to
deliver all its amps, and when the caps will provide the boost in
volts and amps.
I agree that the caps must have low resistance, there are many
high-capacity caps that are not designed for high-current and have
high resistance. I didn't look at the audio caps, but the 400F Ness
caps I mentioned have only 3.8Mohm.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Marty Hewes wrote:
How about for street use, with a string of caps in parallel with GC
batteries? It might just be a way to get 1K amps for the first few
seconds without toasting the batteries?
The idea has merit, but I don't think this particular combination
would work very well.
When you first start out, the battery current won't be anything close
to 1000 amps; it will be 100-200 at most. That's because the
controller is stepping the voltage down, and thus current up, into
the initially stopped motor. Even a Zilla producing 2000 motor amps
won't draw over 200 battery amps initially. Golf cart batteries don't
have any problem supplying this kind of current; so the capacitors
provide no benefit.
As the motor speeds up, its voltage rises, so the battery current
goes up (assuming the controller is in current limit). The battery
current *gradually* rises, which is not a good situation for having
the capacitors supply it. So, the batteries will still supply most of
it.
For the capacitors to provide a strong benefit, you would need to use
exceptionally low-resistance capacitors with exceptionally
high-resistance batteries. For instance, the capacitors would help
when the golf cart batteries are almost dead, because their internal
resistance will be so much higher.
Or, you could use a separate controller or DC/DC converter for the
batteries and capacitors. This way you can control which one supplies
the current. The one for the batteries would have to allow for the
large voltage change versus state of charge for the capacitors.
_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live
Hotmail.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There appear to be some basic misconceptions about drag racing here.
There is a traction limit. It is easy to get to the traction limit at
launch. If you go beyond the traction limit, the tire spins and you
get LESS acceleration. Thus, you need to control current (torque)
quite carefully during the launch.
As you go down the strip, your ideal would be to hold
constant current (max possible torque matching the available
traction) for as long as you are able to do so. At some point, you
reach the maximum HP (volts times amps) that the battery pack can
produce. You then do your best to stay at (or near) the maximum HP
output of the battery pack.
You do the series/parallel switch to extend the dynamic
range of the controller. If you had a higher-voltage input for the
controller, you would arrange the battery pack for that higher
voltage and just stay in series. Conversely, if you had a larger
current limit for the controller, you would just start out in
parallel and dump twice the current out of the controller, half going
to each motor. A series/parallel contactor is lighter (and cheaper)
than a second controller.
The series/parallel switch gives you more area under the HP
curve. It gives you two max HP peaks instead of just one.
Bill Dube'
At 03:20 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
"to stay within its current limit", so why do you build a dragster
that has a current limit and needs to be throttled down.
You should then use multiple motors to multiply the current.
Basically what I hear you and Bill saying is that we are optimizing
our drag cars to use batteries, when in fact you can go faster if
you optimize them to use caps. Now caps are of course relatively
very expensive, but on the other hand, they should last 10-100 times
longer than the abused expensive batteries currently being used.
One thing about power, is that at the end of a 1/4 mile any power
left in the batteries has been wasted. Unless you are draining 100%
of them during the run, there is room for improvement.
Jack Murray
Phil Marino wrote:
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:12:34 -0700
Why would the controller be stepping down the voltage when you are
launching at full-throttle?
That's because ( as Lee said) the motor voltage is very low. Since
the motor is stopped ( or turning very slowly) the back EMF is very
low, so even a low voltage at the motor terminals results in very
high current ( and, very high torque).
The controller keeps the motor voltage low so as to stay within its
current limit.
Phil Marino
It is just at this point that the battery voltage sags trying to
deliver all its amps, and when the caps will provide the boost in
volts and amps.
I agree that the caps must have low resistance, there are many
high-capacity caps that are not designed for high-current and have
high resistance. I didn't look at the audio caps, but the 400F
Ness caps I mentioned have only 3.8Mohm.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Marty Hewes wrote:
How about for street use, with a string of caps in parallel with
GC batteries? It might just be a way to get 1K amps for the
first few seconds without toasting the batteries?
The idea has merit, but I don't think this particular combination
would work very well.
When you first start out, the battery current won't be anything
close to 1000 amps; it will be 100-200 at most. That's because
the controller is stepping the voltage down, and thus current up,
into the initially stopped motor. Even a Zilla producing 2000
motor amps won't draw over 200 battery amps initially. Golf cart
batteries don't have any problem supplying this kind of current;
so the capacitors provide no benefit.
As the motor speeds up, its voltage rises, so the battery current
goes up (assuming the controller is in current limit). The
battery current *gradually* rises, which is not a good situation
for having the capacitors supply it. So, the batteries will still
supply most of it.
For the capacitors to provide a strong benefit, you would need to
use exceptionally low-resistance capacitors with exceptionally
high-resistance batteries. For instance, the capacitors would
help when the golf cart batteries are almost dead, because their
internal resistance will be so much higher.
Or, you could use a separate controller or DC/DC converter for
the batteries and capacitors. This way you can control which one
supplies the current. The one for the batteries would have to
allow for the large voltage change versus state of charge for the capacitors.
_________________________________________________________________
Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You'll love Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The way I see it is that the current to the motor needs to be controlled
for traction and to distribute the energy over the length of the run so
that there is enough voltage left at the top end to generate HP need to
keep accelerating. If you were to dump the caps directly on the motor
most likely something will break if not traction, the driveline and
there will be nothing left at the top end. me
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
"to stay within its current limit", so why do you build a dragster that
has a current limit and needs to be throttled down.
You should then use multiple motors to multiply the current.
Basically what I hear you and Bill saying is that we are optimizing our
drag cars to use batteries, when in fact you can go faster if you
optimize them to use caps. Now caps are of course relatively very
expensive, but on the other hand, they should last 10-100 times longer
than the abused expensive batteries currently being used.
One thing about power, is that at the end of a 1/4 mile any power left
in the batteries has been wasted. Unless you are draining 100% of them
during the run, there is room for improvement.
Jack Murray
Phil Marino wrote:
>
>
>
>> From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
>> Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:12:34 -0700
>>
>> Why would the controller be stepping down the voltage when you are
>> launching at full-throttle?
>
>
> That's because ( as Lee said) the motor voltage is very low. Since
> the motor is stopped ( or turning very slowly) the back EMF is very
> low, so even a low voltage at the motor terminals results in very high
> current ( and, very high torque).
>
> The controller keeps the motor voltage low so as to stay within its
> current limit.
>
> Phil Marino
>
>
>> It is just at this point that the battery voltage sags trying to
>> deliver all its amps, and when the caps will provide the boost in
>> volts and amps.
>>
>> I agree that the caps must have low resistance, there are many
>> high-capacity caps that are not designed for high-current and have
>> high resistance. I didn't look at the audio caps, but the 400F Ness
>> caps I mentioned have only 3.8Mohm.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>>> Marty Hewes wrote:
>>>
>>>> How about for street use, with a string of caps in parallel with GC
>>>> batteries? It might just be a way to get 1K amps for the first few
>>>> seconds without toasting the batteries?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea has merit, but I don't think this particular combination
>>> would work very well.
>>>
>>> When you first start out, the battery current won't be anything
>>> close to 1000 amps; it will be 100-200 at most. That's because the
>>> controller is stepping the voltage down, and thus current up, into
>>> the initially stopped motor. Even a Zilla producing 2000 motor amps
>>> won't draw over 200 battery amps initially. Golf cart batteries
>>> don't have any problem supplying this kind of current; so the
>>> capacitors provide no benefit.
>>>
>>> As the motor speeds up, its voltage rises, so the battery current
>>> goes up (assuming the controller is in current limit). The battery
>>> current *gradually* rises, which is not a good situation for having
>>> the capacitors supply it. So, the batteries will still supply most
>>> of it.
>>>
>>> For the capacitors to provide a strong benefit, you would need to
>>> use exceptionally low-resistance capacitors with exceptionally
>>> high-resistance batteries. For instance, the capacitors would help
>>> when the golf cart batteries are almost dead, because their internal
>>> resistance will be so much higher.
>>>
>>> Or, you could use a separate controller or DC/DC converter for the
>>> batteries and capacitors. This way you can control which one
>>> supplies the current. The one for the batteries would have to allow
>>> for the large voltage change versus state of charge for the
capacitors.
>>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You'll love Windows Live
> Hotmail.
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mi
> gration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not sure about the magnets. Peak amps were down but peak volts were up
when the grilling occurred. Regardless, it is much better to have a
flame out on 2 motors instead of 8 or 12. Will 180 bat volts fry the
Perms? I haven't decided yet where to set max power tomorrow. I think
the Electropolitan is headed out with us to Thompson to try and reclaim
the 96 volt SC record. Bill, I'll be sure to use use my Listerine but
get used to my breath on your neck. AGNS is coming.........
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: AGNS has new motors
I think Rod Hower hit the nail on the head with the reversed magnets.
Demagnetization/reversal is the limitation for PM motors. You go over
the max current and the magnets roll over and die. Then there is no
back-EMF to hold off the current in the armature. When you are
paralleling motors on one controller output, this is a serious issue.
The motor with the weakest magnets hogs the current, wounding the
magnets even more, causing it to hog more current.....
You can get more out of series-wound motors because there are no
magnets to reverse. You can hump in outrageous amounts of current and
the torque just keeps going up.
Again, your times are impressive. As you know, the only way to post
records is to push the system 100%. The engineering calculations get
you a ball park value, but you must go out and find exactly where that
100% actually is in each component. To really know where 100% is, you
sometimes must go to 101%. :-)
I can feel your breath on my neck. Bump up the voltage and come and
get me. :-)
Bill Dube'
At 08:21 PM 5/14/2007, you wrote:
Rod,
Both motors were toast last Wednesday night. Very, very, burnt toast.
We'll turn down the knob on the toaster this week and see if we can
brown them just right.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: AGNS has new motors
That link did not come up for me, but I found these
from the part number you listed,
http://www.perm-motor.de/pm_pdf/pmg_132_d.pdf
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/ki-pmg132-hp.htm
http://www.enigmaindustries.com/PMG_132/PMG_132.htm
The last link provides the most info for me.
It is similar to an Etek motor with higher torque
constant.
When I read your post last week about fireballing I
assumed that you de-magnetized the motor (when the
magnets are pushed to the limit the magnet has lower
or minimal strength and the resulting motor winding
looks like a short circuit). Hopefully this didn't
take place with your motor, maybe you could let us
know if the original is still alive? I'm guessing
this has high power Neodymium magnets that are
difficult to demag except for guys like you and
Wayland.
Good luck on the Wednesday run!!!
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Rod,
The motors we are using came from Germany. Part #
PMG132.
www.perm-motors.de. They are very well built and
rather beautiful
inside.
They are lower in torque and don't have the same
speed and shaft
adjustability as the Lemco's but I am very impressed
with them.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon, 14 May 2007 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: AGNS has new motors
Hello Shawn,
I may have missed the post, do you have any more
details on the 'Perm motors' you're using on this
bike?
Thanks,
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Lawless AGNS bike is almost back together and
> ready for a shot at
> the 144 volt NEDRA motorcycle record on Wednesday
> night.
> Looks like it's back to typical Cleveland weather
,
> (mid 50's and a
> chance of rain forecast). New Perm motors are in
> place. I tuned them
> on the test bench this morning slightly different
> than before. I'll
> try not to get so greedy with the motor voltage
this
> time. We're
> making some charging changes as well. Hopefully
all
> of this leads to
> the "as yet to be obtained" 100 mph run and a bit
> closer to the 12's. I
> was looking at the NEDRA motorcycle records today
> and it just struck me
> how impressive one of them is. In 2004 Duane
Gergich
> ran a 12.49 at
> 100.7 mph. on 156 volts! That is not only darn
quick
> for any bike but
> is second overall to the Killacycle at less than
> half the voltage! I
> think we have our work cut out for us on that one.
>
> Shawn Lawless
>
________________________________________________________________________
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=0
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "SW3-3 will start the timer when the Regbus tells the charger to back
> off on current."
>
Excellent. Does anyone know where to find a spec on Regbus?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They weren't racing.
Duh.
On Tue, 15 May 2007 1:53 pm, Michael wrote:
Not to diss this guy, but had he a clipper ship, or just a good SAIL
boat, cat, if you will, he woulda been here MONTHS ago. Or I believe
a 12
day sailing record STILL stands, not sure if it was a clipper or fancy
Catamaran? I think ROWING guyz have made better time?
A British four-man crew set a world record for rowing across the
Atlantic,
crossing the ocean in 39 days to win the Atlantic Rowing Race on
Sunday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/rowing/4576918.stm
Peyron and his crew took four days eight hours and 23 minutes 54
seconds
to sail from New York to Cornwall.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/sailing/5156492.stm
...but the point was he could do it at all. (Kontiki sailed it
quicker.)
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume you've adjusted the clutch cable? During the normal course of
events the cable gets adjusted every year or so to account for wear in the
clutch and simply installing a new clutch without re-adjusting the cable
will result in the problem you're having.
If you have adjusted tried that already, do you still have the old ICE?
If so, put the flywheel back on it and measure the offset from the
flywheel face to the bell housing and compare to the adapter plate.
The bug and 914 engines are identical as far as mounting is concerned, in
fact the 914 actually used a slightly tweeked VW engine.
However, there were numerous different VW flywheel diameters, as well as
at least two different transmission shaft sizes, but this only effects
clutch plate selection.
> Howdy,
>
> My E-Porsche 914 (1974') clutch doesn't release and I was wondering if the
> VW bug adapter I bought is too thick and by how much OR if the bug clutch
> disc & pressure plate are the wrong dimensions (thickness) for the
> Porsche.
> Does anyone, Mike Brown etc know the dimensional differences between the
> bug
> & Porsche clutch from that era? ( It appears the throwout bearing isn't
> traveling all the way before the arm bottoms out on the exit casing).
> It's
> like clutchless shifting right now (crunchy between gears).
>
> Also I was curious about what brake pads have the best cooefficient of
> friction. There's a lot of BS in the brake pad world. I was told that
> organic Mintex pads were better than metalic but don't see any friction
> rating numbers just various "heavy duty", "titanium" and other meaningless
> claims. Iv'e done this brake pad change thing before and it usually is
> just
> an exercise in futility. I did find from my shop manual that my poor
> braking is probably due to the rusty discs and they should be turned which
> I'm doing today. I have the 17mm master cylinder instead of the 19mm for
> less braking effort but I could probably use the bigger rear pistons that
> were used on the heavier 6-cyl version. I removed the rear pressure
> regulator like Otmar did which usually helps.
>
> Have a renewabler energy day,
> Stop by the June 3-7 WindExpo in LA,
> Mark E. Hanson
> Roanoke, VA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Catch suspicious messages before you open themwith Windows Live Hotmail.
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>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, if you had unlimited energy in zero weight batteries, then you'd want
to stay right on the brink of breaking loose the whole way. In practice, I
think it would require a continuously variable transmission to keep the RPM
under control to get anywhere close to that point. But is there such a
thing as a battery pack that can dump that much wattage anyway? Certainly
caps alone would be dropping their voltage much faster than the equivelent
voltage in batteries, since there is no flat spot in the discharge curve, so
you'd have to be actually pulling the RPM down with reduced gear reduction
as the cap voltage dropped? Either that or you need a trick
controller/inverter that can put out more voltage than it sees from the
caps, which I believe is the equivelent of an electrical CVT.
I think if the available energy is limited, you want to expend it as early
as possible within the bounds of traction. Who cares if you're only
coasting at the end, at 100+ MPH :). The sooner you can put wattage to the
pavement, the higher your average speed will be, and the sooner you'll get
there. This seems to be pretty common in EV racing, looking at the 1/8 mile
speed and the 1/4 mile speed, it looks like most of the accelerating is done
pretty early, before back EMF kills you, which I would think would happen
earlier with caps.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
The way I see it is that the current to the motor needs to be controlled
for traction and to distribute the energy over the length of the run so
that there is enough voltage left at the top end to generate HP need to
keep accelerating. If you were to dump the caps directly on the motor
most likely something will break if not traction, the driveline and
there will be nothing left at the top end. me
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack, if I understand you right, you're saying you should use caps, and run
out of power at the end. I believe running out of power at the end is
easier with batteries because of the shape of the discharge curve. Wouldn't
that mean (with caps) that just before the end you're generating tremendous
wattage with essentially no voltage since caps discharge linearly? If you
could find caps that could supply that much current (since the voltage is
continuously dropping) without self destructing, it'd take a really
interesting controller design (to increase voltage) or transmission design
(to keep RPM down) to pull it off, no?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
"to stay within its current limit", so why do you build a dragster that
has a current limit and needs to be throttled down.
You should then use multiple motors to multiply the current.
Basically what I hear you and Bill saying is that we are optimizing our
drag cars to use batteries, when in fact you can go faster if you
optimize them to use caps. Now caps are of course relatively very
expensive, but on the other hand, they should last 10-100 times longer
than the abused expensive batteries currently being used.
One thing about power, is that at the end of a 1/4 mile any power left
in the batteries has been wasted. Unless you are draining 100% of them
during the run, there is room for improvement.
Jack Murray
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's intersting that they claim to have been working on large format
Lithium Ion cells for more than twenty years.
Considering that Lithium Ion cells (of any size) have only been
commercially available for 16 years.
I can't figure out if they just make reference to Prof Goodenough in
passing or if he works for them. If it's the latter, then their claims
might have some merit, otherwise it sounds like typical marketing speak.
> Hmm I notice their recommended discharge rate (on which they base their
> cycle life) is a rather impressive 0.2c....wow.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tehben Dean
> Sent: 15 May 2007 00:56
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: LTC - Lithium Technology Corp. Lithium batteries
>
> I don't know how this compares to other lithium batteries but If you
> got 90 of their 120 Ah HE-852050 3.6v cells you would have a 324v
> 120ah 500lb battery pack!!
> http://www.lithiumtech.com/StandardCells.html
>
> Tehben
>
>
> 5/14/2007
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>
> Next Generation Battery Technology Makes Hybrid and Electric Vehicles
> a Reality
>
> Lithium Technology Corporation offers the Largest Lithium Iron
> Phosphate Cells in World
>
>
> PLYMOUTH MEETING, PA, May 14, 2007 � The battery power solution for
> advanced automotives has arrived. Lithium Technology Corporation
> ("LTC") (OTC: LTHU) announced today its new product line of lithium
> iron phosphate (LiFePO4) cells, the largest cells of their kind in
> the world. This is the answer the automotive industry has been
> searching for.
>
> "The technology we can offer the automotive industry today is
> unmatched by any other battery power solution on the market,"
> commented Dr. Klaus Brandt, executive vice president of LTC and
> managing director of LTC subsidiary GAIA Akkumulatorenwerke (GAIA).
> "Others have been estimating up to a year to deliver the technology
> we are proud to make available today. We have proven the superiority
> of our technology in the past, and with the iron phosphate product we
> have raised the bar even further."
>
> LTC, a global provider of large lithium-ion rechargeable power
> solutions has focused solely on the development and production of
> large format lithium-ion batteries for more than twenty years. Unlike
> others, our advanced cells use LiFePO4 licensed technology, developed
> by Prof. John Goodenough with the University of Texas and supplied by
> Phostech; this chemistry coupled with the company's innovative end-to-
> end manufacturing processes and proprietary design, packaging and
> assembly techniques, allow LTC to provide high performance cells
> unmatched by any other product.
>
> "Batteries made of LTC's cells can provide 3000 charging cycles,
> which would be able to do 150,000 miles to 80% capacity for a 100 km
> or 60 mile all electric range plug in hybrid, which no other
> technology can claim," said Dr. Andrew Frank, Professor, Mechanical
> and Aeronautical Engineering at the University of California, Davis .
> "The new cells from LTC provide improved safety with the iron
> phosphate chemistry while delivering the impeccable performance they
> are known for, which is what the auto makers have been in search of;
> this is a Company that is seriously committed to making hybrid, plug-
> in hybrid and electric vehicles an affordable reality for the consumer."
>
> LTC�s large format technology allows for the development of safer
> battery systems with a significantly lower number of cells. The
> weight of the battery is decreased while performance and safety
> monitoring capabilities are increased. The battery management system
> (BMS) is more precise monitoring fewer cells, keeping them in balance
> for best performance and preventing damage to the battery due to over
> voltage, under voltage, over temperature and short circuit.
>
> The Company�s new product line offers cells ranging from 6 Ah to 35
> Ah. Further statistics will be discussed at an expo of LTC�s breadth
> of power solution on May 23rd in New York City.
> http://www.lithiumtech.com/pr51407.htm
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is no wattage when there is no voltage.......
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Jack, if I understand you right, you're saying you should use caps, and
run out of power at the end. I believe running out of power at the end
is easier with batteries because of the shape of the discharge curve.
Wouldn't that mean (with caps) that just before the end you're
generating tremendous wattage with essentially no voltage since caps
discharge linearly? If you could find caps that could supply that much
current (since the voltage is continuously dropping) without self
destructing, it'd take a really interesting controller design (to
increase voltage) or transmission design (to keep RPM down) to pull it
off, no?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
"to stay within its current limit", so why do you build a dragster that
has a current limit and needs to be throttled down.
You should then use multiple motors to multiply the current.
Basically what I hear you and Bill saying is that we are optimizing our
drag cars to use batteries, when in fact you can go faster if you
optimize them to use caps. Now caps are of course relatively very
expensive, but on the other hand, they should last 10-100 times longer
than the abused expensive batteries currently being used.
One thing about power, is that at the end of a 1/4 mile any power left
in the batteries has been wasted. Unless you are draining 100% of them
during the run, there is room for improvement.
Jack Murray
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can someone explain if there's any functional difference with a PM motor
(compared with a DC series motor) from a user's standpoint? I see
angular-velocity
and torque constants listed but don't know if I understand how
these are manifested in an application. Is RPM limited and will the motor try
to achieve that speed even under load? I like the light weight and the
potential for regen appeals to me for another m-cycle project I'm thinking
about.
TIA for explanations on how these things work.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The way I see it is that the current to the motor needs to be controlled
for traction and to distribute the energy over the length of the run so
that there is enough voltage left at the top end to generate HP need to
....
And also to prevent the brushes and wiring from turning into a pile
of melted copper and smoke.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
umm, bill I've been drag racing since the 70's, and just sold my 506ci
stroker motor low-12 second street-driven drag car a few months ago.
So you are saying you can't go faster because you can't use the
additional power? That is funny... So the ProStock motorcycles that run
7's (or is it 6's now) can't use more power and are traction
limited????? Maybe you need a better chassis, or bigger tires.
But speaking of caps, for a motorcycle you are really limited on space,
so caps might not be possible given their very low volume-to-power factor.
Jack
Bill Dube wrote:
There appear to be some basic misconceptions about drag racing here.
There is a traction limit. It is easy to get to the traction limit at
launch. If you go beyond the traction limit, the tire spins and you get
LESS acceleration. Thus, you need to control current (torque) quite
carefully during the launch.
As you go down the strip, your ideal would be to hold constant
current (max possible torque matching the available traction) for as
long as you are able to do so. At some point, you reach the maximum HP
(volts times amps) that the battery pack can produce. You then do your
best to stay at (or near) the maximum HP output of the battery pack.
You do the series/parallel switch to extend the dynamic range of
the controller. If you had a higher-voltage input for the controller,
you would arrange the battery pack for that higher voltage and just stay
in series. Conversely, if you had a larger current limit for the
controller, you would just start out in parallel and dump twice the
current out of the controller, half going to each motor. A
series/parallel contactor is lighter (and cheaper) than a second
controller.
The series/parallel switch gives you more area under the HP
curve. It gives you two max HP peaks instead of just one.
Bill Dube'
At 03:20 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote:
"to stay within its current limit", so why do you build a dragster
that has a current limit and needs to be throttled down.
You should then use multiple motors to multiply the current.
Basically what I hear you and Bill saying is that we are optimizing
our drag cars to use batteries, when in fact you can go faster if you
optimize them to use caps. Now caps are of course relatively very
expensive, but on the other hand, they should last 10-100 times longer
than the abused expensive batteries currently being used.
One thing about power, is that at the end of a 1/4 mile any power left
in the batteries has been wasted. Unless you are draining 100% of
them during the run, there is room for improvement.
Jack Murray
Phil Marino wrote:
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Using Audio Capacitors for Dragsters
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:12:34 -0700
Why would the controller be stepping down the voltage when you are
launching at full-throttle?
That's because ( as Lee said) the motor voltage is very low. Since
the motor is stopped ( or turning very slowly) the back EMF is very
low, so even a low voltage at the motor terminals results in very
high current ( and, very high torque).
The controller keeps the motor voltage low so as to stay within its
current limit.
Phil Marino
It is just at this point that the battery voltage sags trying to
deliver all its amps, and when the caps will provide the boost in
volts and amps.
I agree that the caps must have low resistance, there are many
high-capacity caps that are not designed for high-current and have
high resistance. I didn't look at the audio caps, but the 400F Ness
caps I mentioned have only 3.8Mohm.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Marty Hewes wrote:
How about for street use, with a string of caps in parallel with
GC batteries? It might just be a way to get 1K amps for the first
few seconds without toasting the batteries?
The idea has merit, but I don't think this particular combination
would work very well.
When you first start out, the battery current won't be anything
close to 1000 amps; it will be 100-200 at most. That's because the
controller is stepping the voltage down, and thus current up, into
the initially stopped motor. Even a Zilla producing 2000 motor amps
won't draw over 200 battery amps initially. Golf cart batteries
don't have any problem supplying this kind of current; so the
capacitors provide no benefit.
As the motor speeds up, its voltage rises, so the battery current
goes up (assuming the controller is in current limit). The battery
current *gradually* rises, which is not a good situation for having
the capacitors supply it. So, the batteries will still supply most
of it.
For the capacitors to provide a strong benefit, you would need to
use exceptionally low-resistance capacitors with exceptionally
high-resistance batteries. For instance, the capacitors would help
when the golf cart batteries are almost dead, because their
internal resistance will be so much higher.
Or, you could use a separate controller or DC/DC converter for the
batteries and capacitors. This way you can control which one
supplies the current. The one for the batteries would have to allow
for the large voltage change versus state of charge for the
capacitors.
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