EV Digest 6784
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Shave My Adapter?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: direct drive or transmission?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by Jem Yelkovan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: direct drive or transmission?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zivan DC/DC (plus 12V AMP draws!)
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) New Member info (was RE: direct drive or transmission?)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT!!! Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: direct drive or transmission?
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New Member info (was RE: direct drive or transmission?)
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Who can fix Curtis Controller?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Motor needed
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor needed
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New Member info (was RE: direct drive or transmission?)
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) O.T. Water-fueled engine appears on the horizon
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: belly pan plastic
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Discover Batteries
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
True, but you can use the smaller VW flywheel with the VW clutch as long
as you get a clutch that matches the splined shaft from the tranny. I
believe, but I'm not sure, that the 200mm VW clutches have the same spline
as the 215 Porsche clutch.
> Not sure about the thickness, but the center mounting bolts are
> completely different, unless you have a VW Type 4 taper hub. The main
> difference between the 914 clutch and a (Type 1) VW clutch is the
> diameter, the 914 has a 215mm clutch that only fits the 914 flywheel,
> Type 1 VW's maxed out at 200mm. To use the 914 clutch you will need the
> 914 flywheel and the proper taper lock hub to fit it.
>
> You probably already have a working clutch once you slide the taper lock
> hub to put the flywheel closer to the throwout bearing. You want to end
> up with a little free play at the clutch shaft in the forward direction
> as possible. I'm assuming you have a hub that can slide of course...
>
> Mike Scott in SJ, CA Got Juice?
>
> Mark Hanson wrote:
>> Thanks Peter & Roland,
>>
>> Thanks for your help. I'll look at Rolland's suggestions of what he did
>> which I appear to have the similar problem. A Porsche guy is selling me
>> a 914 clutch setup for $420 (and frame stiffener for $320 for the floppy
>> frame) so that should keep me busy next week welding again & changing
>> the clutch. He thought the Porsche clutch plate/disk & throuwout
>> bearing were thicker than the VW bug and that's why it's not
>> disengaging. The clutch cable was initially adjusted but the arm
>> bottoms out on the case. I tried washers behind the throw-out arm to
>> move it a bit closer but ran out of travel. The VW flywheel may have to
>> be changed to a Porsche flywheel if the Porsche is thicker but I dunno
>> and the engine was left in Knoxville (I'm in Roanoke, VA).
>
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to pick bones, but that would be a single speed transmission.
Direct drive implies that you are /direct/ly driving the wheel with the
motor.
> Thanks Peter. I should have added that since I have to use an
> intermediate
> shaft if I go with direct drive that I will definitely be optimizing the
> ratio.
>
> Dustin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:20 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: direct drive or transmission?
>
> At 60 mph, the wheels on your vehicle will be turning at less than 1,000
> RPM. That is way to slow for your proposed motor. You will need at least
> a single speed transmission. A multispeed will improve your performance
> and efficiency.
>
> Direct drive requires motors specially built to operate at low RPM.
>
>>
>> Well, as long as I'm on a posting roll today...
>>
>> Can I solicit some comments about whether I should opt for direct drive
>> or
>> a transmission in my EV project?
>>
>> These are the known parameters so far:
>> 1) Z1k controller (the 348v version) (purchased and awaiting assembly)
>> 2) 15 to 20 Optimas, ideally 180v but I may opt for two strings of 120v.
>> 3) Loaded weight is 2100-2200lbs including 20 optimas and driver, aprox.
>> 4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration. Online EV computers
>> estimate 220 watt hours per mile but I think that is much more than
>> needed. I have not decided my final purpose, but it would be nice to be
>> able to use it for my daily commute in addition to and EV events.
>> 5) Vehicle is a streamlined 3 wheel vortex (see www.vortexplans.com).
>> The
>> Vortex has one wide wheel in back and two up front.
>> 6) Initially planning on using a Netgain Warp 9. I have checked the
>> performance charts available on Netgain's site and talked to a
>> representative.
>>
>> One EVer recently suggested I use two smaller motors. I would like to
>> be
>> able to climb hills and still get up to 70mph on the highway, so it's
>> been
>> my thinking to use a small transmission, possibly either a Harley or an
>> MR2 tranmssions (welded on one side).
>>
>> Any knowledgable comments about whether to use multiple motors (and what
>> kind) or multiple gears would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dustin
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually you need 100% to 200% more TORQUE to go with a single ratio drive.
You basically need to supply the same wheel torque in (what would
effectively be 3rd or 4th gear) as a typical conversion would have in say
2nd gear.
> I'm in a similar boat - 2200lbs vehicle, 1000A speed controller, and
> was also planning on a Warp9 if keeping the transmission, but am now
> considering options for direct drive. Not having gears seems far more
> elegant!
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone), but it seems to me like generally
> you need about 50% more power for direct drive conversions, and need
> to run at the equivalent of 4th gear (final drive ratio of about
> 3.5:1), so you've got enough torque down low without running out of
> revs up high. Most series DC motors peg out at a little over 5Krpm.
>
> Right now I'm considering siamesing (a new verb for you) two ADC
> 6.7s, since it'd have comparable power to a WarP 11 and *hopefully*
> still fit down the gearbox tunnel of the MX5. I think a 6.7"-block-of-
> wood test is in order.
>
> -Ian
>
> On 17/05/2007, at 3:50 AM, Dustin Stern wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, as long as I'm on a posting roll today...
>>
>> Can I solicit some comments about whether I should opt for direct
>> drive or a transmission in my EV project?
>>
>> These are the known parameters so far:
>> 1) Z1k controller (the 348v version) (purchased and awaiting assembly)
>> 2) 15 to 20 Optimas, ideally 180v but I may opt for two strings of
>> 120v.
>> 3) Loaded weight is 2100-2200lbs including 20 optimas and driver,
>> aprox.
>> 4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration. Online EV
>> computers estimate 220 watt hours per mile but I think that is much
>> more than needed. I have not decided my final purpose, but it
>> would be nice to be able to use it for my daily commute in addition
>> to and EV events.
>> 5) Vehicle is a streamlined 3 wheel vortex (see
>> www.vortexplans.com). The Vortex has one wide wheel in back and
>> two up front.
>> 6) Initially planning on using a Netgain Warp 9. I have checked
>> the performance charts available on Netgain's site and talked to a
>> representative.
>>
>> One EVer recently suggested I use two smaller motors. I would like
>> to be able to climb hills and still get up to 70mph on the highway,
>> so it's been my thinking to use a small transmission, possibly
>> either a Harley or an MR2 tranmssions (welded on one side).
>>
>> Any knowledgable comments about whether to use multiple motors (and
>> what kind) or multiple gears would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dustin
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am a new member and a beginner. COuld you please
tell me what some good resources are, whether web or
books, where I can learn from to start converting a
car to EV ? THank you all and I am very excited to be
a part of this group.
Jem
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually you need 100% to 200% more TORQUE to go
> with a single ratio drive.
>
> You basically need to supply the same wheel torque
> in (what would
> effectively be 3rd or 4th gear) as a typical
> conversion would have in say
> 2nd gear.
>
> > I'm in a similar boat - 2200lbs vehicle, 1000A
> speed controller, and
> > was also planning on a Warp9 if keeping the
> transmission, but am now
> > considering options for direct drive. Not having
> gears seems far more
> > elegant!
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone), but it seems to
> me like generally
> > you need about 50% more power for direct drive
> conversions, and need
> > to run at the equivalent of 4th gear (final drive
> ratio of about
> > 3.5:1), so you've got enough torque down low
> without running out of
> > revs up high. Most series DC motors peg out at a
> little over 5Krpm.
> >
> > Right now I'm considering siamesing (a new verb
> for you) two ADC
> > 6.7s, since it'd have comparable power to a WarP
> 11 and *hopefully*
> > still fit down the gearbox tunnel of the MX5. I
> think a 6.7"-block-of-
> > wood test is in order.
> >
> > -Ian
> >
> > On 17/05/2007, at 3:50 AM, Dustin Stern wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Well, as long as I'm on a posting roll today...
> >>
> >> Can I solicit some comments about whether I
> should opt for direct
> >> drive or a transmission in my EV project?
> >>
> >> These are the known parameters so far:
> >> 1) Z1k controller (the 348v version) (purchased
> and awaiting assembly)
> >> 2) 15 to 20 Optimas, ideally 180v but I may opt
> for two strings of
> >> 120v.
> >> 3) Loaded weight is 2100-2200lbs including 20
> optimas and driver,
> >> aprox.
> >> 4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration.
> Online EV
> >> computers estimate 220 watt hours per mile but I
> think that is much
> >> more than needed. I have not decided my final
> purpose, but it
> >> would be nice to be able to use it for my daily
> commute in addition
> >> to and EV events.
> >> 5) Vehicle is a streamlined 3 wheel vortex (see
> >> www.vortexplans.com). The Vortex has one wide
> wheel in back and
> >> two up front.
> >> 6) Initially planning on using a Netgain Warp 9.
> I have checked
> >> the performance charts available on Netgain's
> site and talked to a
> >> representative.
> >>
> >> One EVer recently suggested I use two smaller
> motors. I would like
> >> to be able to climb hills and still get up to
> 70mph on the highway,
> >> so it's been my thinking to use a small
> transmission, possibly
> >> either a Harley or an MR2 tranmssions (welded on
> one side).
> >>
> >> Any knowledgable comments about whether to use
> multiple motors (and
> >> what kind) or multiple gears would be
> appreciated.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >> Dustin
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> 4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration. Online EV computers
> estimate 220 watt hours per mile but I think that is much more than
> needed.
What are you converting? Typical EV conversions use approx 250-300 WH/mile.
Unless you are building a very aerodynamic vehicle, or are planning on
only driving at 35 mph or slower, you are probably going to average at
least 220 WH/mile.
Note: Watt Hour is a unit of ENERGY, not power. I'm not sure if you were
clear on that.
FWIW a study about 20 years ago indicated that the average small car
requires approx 10 hp to maintain a steady 50 mph on flat terrain with no
wind (how often do you find that?)
Power required goes up as the square of the speed. Double the speed,
quadruple the power.
Accounting for electric and mechanical losses 10 hp at the wheels equals
approx 10,000 watts.
So maintaining a steady 50 mph on level ground with no wind requires
approx 200 WH per mile. Since you probably won't find flat ground with no
wind, your actual power requirements will be a bit different. Climbing
hills, even shallow slopes, makes you power requirements go up
dramatically.
Unless you have regen, all the extra energy you put into accelerating the
vehicle from a stop to say 50 mph, is wasted energy. This also makes you
power requirements go up. If you have regen you can recover between
10%-50% of this energy, the extra energy used for acceleration.
The 200 WH/mile mentioned above CAN NOT BE RECOVERED
All of this adds up to the fact that you typically need MORE than
220WH/Mile. So I'm curious as to why you think 220WH/mile is "much more
than is needed".
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The point to using two motors is to get extra torque, from the same
controller, by wiring the motors in series while getting the same top
speed by wiring them in parallel.
If you reduce voltage, with the same controller, you will reduce power.
This is unavoidable, power = volts * amps. Less volts = less power.
So can you get away with less voltage? Yes, if you are willing to accept
less power, or if you are switching to a higher current controller, or
switching to two controllers.
When going with a single ratio reduction you need to perhaps double the
current that the controller can handle and switch to a larger motor, or
dual motors, to handle the higher heat build up from running higher
current. The higher current also means higher I2R losses, so this means
you will typically get lower efficiency.
> in discussing 2 motors vs 1 - does anyone know how to calculate
> voltage required in a 2 motor application? can you get away with less
> voltage, since each motor is theoritcally only driving a portion of
> the vehicle?
> i saw Ian's comment that he believed you already need to add 50% for
> direct drive. but then do you (roughly) halve that amount across 2
> motors?
> thanks
> chad
>
> On 5/16/07, Eidson, Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Recent postings indicate that you need a minimum of twice the capacity
>> of your targeted range with AGM batteries to have a decent pack life so
>> you probably need more like 30 batteries or a 110 watt-hours per mile.
>> I guess the transmission will depend on how long steep your hills the
>> hills you need to climb and where they are in your commute. Direct
>> drive to me means that there is a fixed gear ratio between the motor and
>> wheel as apposed to a hub drive where the motor and wheel hub are at a
>> 1:1 ratio. I would figure the drive ratio to have your top speed at
>> something less than the max motor RPM for a sagged battery pack voltage.
>> With a Warp9, AGM batteries and your sized and shape vehicle
>> acceleration will not be a problem with a Zilla 1K. Top speed will be
>> determined by the power required for your vehicle at speed and battery
>> pack voltage at that current draw. If you have steep hills a
>> transmission to increase the gear ratio may help by reducing the current
>> required to climb the hill which helps the battery capacity and motor
>> heating at a loss of efficiency and addition of weight and complexity
>> for the drive train. I opted for a direct drive of 4.75:1 using a
>> jackshaft with a primary belt and secondary chain for my 800 lbs of
>> motorcycle and passenger with 6 65ah AGMs driving an ADC L91-4003 thru a
>> Zilla 1K. I have a 15 mile round trip on level ground with a few starts
>> and stops and a 50 MPH top commute speed. I hope to have pretty good
>> acceleration and a top speed of 65MPH. I'm not sure if my 72 volt pack
>> will get me up to 65 with that ratio. I guess I will find out when the
>> Zilla 1K eventually get here some time this month.......me
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Dustin Stern
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:51 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: direct drive or transmission?
>>
>>
>> Well, as long as I'm on a posting roll today...
>>
>> Can I solicit some comments about whether I should opt for direct drive
>> or a transmission in my EV project?
>>
>> These are the known parameters so far:
>> 1) Z1k controller (the 348v version) (purchased and awaiting assembly)
>> 2) 15 to 20 Optimas, ideally 180v but I may opt for two strings of 120v.
>> 3) Loaded weight is 2100-2200lbs including 20 optimas and driver, aprox.
>>
>> 4) Targeting 40+ range and powerful acceleration. Online EV computers
>> estimate 220 watt hours per mile but I think that is much more than
>> needed. I have not decided my final purpose, but it would be nice to be
>> able to use it for my daily commute in addition to and EV events.
>> 5) Vehicle is a streamlined 3 wheel vortex (see www.vortexplans.com).
>> The Vortex has one wide wheel in back and two up front.
>> 6) Initially planning on using a Netgain Warp 9. I have checked the
>> performance charts available on Netgain's site and talked to a
>> representative.
>>
>> One EVer recently suggested I use two smaller motors. I would like to
>> be able to climb hills and still get up to 70mph on the highway, so it's
>> been my thinking to use a small transmission, possibly either a Harley
>> or an MR2 tranmssions (welded on one side).
>>
>> Any knowledgable comments about whether to use multiple motors (and what
>> kind) or multiple gears would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Dustin
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:21:24 -0700, "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Anyone have experience with the Zivan NG1 DC/DC ?
Looks like a beefy unit, 55amp continuous!
I've got one in my 114V VW Cabriolet. It works OK at my pack voltage.
Performance suffers below 110VDC input or when loaded to over 20A. I
wouldn't use it with a battery pack that drops below 120VDC.
The NG1 DC/DC is rated for 108-168VDC input. I wonder if the actual rating
is 108-168VAC input. My headlights dim when I hit the accelerator and my
pack sags below 110V - my 12V system drops from 13.3V to 12V, so the SLI
battery is helping out quite a bit at this point. At 100VDC input, the 12V
system will eventually drop below 11V.
I measured the DC/DC output to see just how much power I was using. The
results surprised me! Driving with headlights on uses ~18A (~240W). More
amp draws are listed below.
If the SLI battery is low, a DC/DC provides only a trickle charge. 13.8V -
11V = 2.8V, so any cabling resistance will drastically reduce charging
current.
PLUSES
======
Lotsa amps!
3-4 second turn-on delay lets me read my SLI battery voltage before it's
boosted to 14V
Has worked well with the (big) $25 KTA switching relay (DPDT, 192VDC, 20A)
6 AWG wires on 12V output
Output voltage drops from 14.1V (no load) to 12V (full load)
-Provides a smooth transition from DC/DC to SLI battery on the 12V
system
MINUSES
=======
It's an AC battery charger that happens to run from 108V-168V DC input
-AC rectifier on input
-internal fuse is not DC rated
Output voltage drops from 14.1V (no load) to 12V (full load)
-lights dim, fans slow down when heavily loaded
Doesn't perform well with less than 120V input
Housing is not waterproof (open vents for fan)
CURRENT MEASUREMENTS
====================
These are current measurements taken on my car with a FULLY CHARGED PACK
(~120VDC). Turn signal/marker/brake lights are LED bulbs. 50mv/50A shunt
used to measure current. 12V Westach gauge used to "eyeball" system
voltage.
Key ON - 6.8A (blower fan, water pump for Zilla)
Vacuum pump (MES-DEA from Metric Mind) - 1A
Parking Lights (LED) - 1.1A
Headlights (LO) - 9.2A
Headlights (HI) - 10.5A
Headlights (HI/LO) - 18.2A
Fan (speed 1) - 2.2A
Fan (speed 2) - 6A
Fan (speed 3) - 12A
Fan (speed 4) - 18.2A
Rear defroster - 7.6A
Typical load (fan speed 2, radio on, headlights on HI) - 27A @ 13V (395W)
Output voltage vs current (voltage is approximate)
0A - 14V
7A - 13.75V
16A - 13.5V
21A - 13.3V
30A - 13V
51A - 12.75V
-Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> Jem Yelkovan wrote:
>
> I am a new member and a beginner. COuld you please
> tell me what some good resources are, whether web or
> books, where I can learn from to start converting a
> car to EV
Right here my friend, right here!
A book worth buying to get some details is Mike Brown's "Convert It"
You can find it and all sorts of parts at his site
http://www.electroauto.com/info/books.shtml
Also try following the many links posted at places like:
http://www.eaaev.org/ (consider joining this association for a nice News Letter)
www.austinev.org
www.seattleeva.org
www.floridaeaa.org
www.oeva.org
http://www.evadc.org/
www.pluginamerica.com
www.durhamelectricvehicles.com
http://evco.ca/
www.veva.bc.ca
www.alaskaEVA.org
www.phoenixeaa.com
www.teva2.com
http://calcars.org/
www.eaacc.org
www.ebeaa.org
www.konoctieaa.org
www.nbeaa.org
www.evaosd.com
www.sfeva.org
http://geocities.com/sjeaa/
www.eaasv.org
http://geocities.com/vceaa/
www.evclubsouth.org
www.fveaa.org
http://maeaa.org/
http://neeaa.org/
www.pveaa.org
http://mn.eaaev.org/
www.lveva.org
www.rtpnet.org/teaa
www.rtpnet.org/teaa
www.eevc.info
www.aceaa.org
www.heaa.org
http://geocities.com/nteaa
www.saltflats.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's even worse, power required goes up as the cube of the speed. Doubling the
speed means you need 8 times the power. (It's the force that goes as speed
squared, not power.)
F ~ v^2; P = F*v; P ~ v^3.
----- Quoted Anonymously ----
...Power required goes up as the square of the speed. Double the speed,
quadruple the power. ...
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will send an off-list rebuke with details.
Suggest to read "The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy"
Off-Topic, thread closed now.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jorg Brown
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [sfeva] Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
Lawrence -
1) Hydrogen-powered vehicles are better for national security than gas
vehicles are, even if the hydrogen comes from nat gas. Why boycott a step
in the right direction?
2) You and I and everyone on this list know that the biggest cost of
electric propulsion comes not in the cost of the electricity, but in the
cost of the depreciation of the batteries. So batteries, it turns out, are
also painfully inefficient when you factor in their periodic replacement
cost.
3) Hydrogen-powered vehicles are much easier to convert to electric than gas
vehicles are. If anything, people here are more likely to buy extra
hydrogen cars than boycott them. Seriously, can you imagine a better
candidate for BEV conversion than a Honda FCV?
25K cost of HCV + 3K lead-acid batteries = 28K for a decent modern electric
car. Where do I sign?
On 5/12/07, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Honda has plans to develop and sell a fuel cell car by 2010. It is
> the accepted fact now that hydrogen is a poor energy carrier. All
> commercial sources of hydrogen will come from fossil fuel. (Hydrogen
> from water using electricity is painfully inefficient but possible)
> That means zero pollution at the vehicle & more pollution at the
> source compared to battery electric vehicles. Should there be active
> protests against the fuel cell & hydrogen.
> I suspect the price of hydrogen will be either subsidised to keep it
> on par with other dino fuels or the real price will be charged. If it
> is subsidised the real price will come later. If it is not there will
> be no acceptance of the product. If Honda makes good on it's promise
> of a 25k fuel cell car what will we do. Buy it or protest? Lawrence
> Rhodes. BTW Why not an energy efficiency "race". The car to finish the
> "race" using the least amount of energy wins.............
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dooh! I always get that wrong. I should have said the energy per mile
goes up as the square of the speed.
> It's even worse, power required goes up as the cube of the speed. Doubling
> the speed means you need 8 times the power. (It's the force that goes as
> speed squared, not power.)
>
> F ~ v^2; P = F*v; P ~ v^3.
>
> ----- Quoted Anonymously ----
> ...Power required goes up as the square of the speed. Double the speed,
> quadruple the power. ...
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
> http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
Peter VanDerWal writes:
> ...Power required goes up as the square of the speed. Double
> the speed, quadruple the power. ...
David Dymaxion writes:
> It's even worse, power required goes up as the cube of the
> speed. Doubling the speed means you need 8 times the power.
> (It's the force that goes as speed squared, not power.)
>
> F ~ v^2; P = F*v; P ~ v^3.
That's true for aero drag, but the rolling resistance force is (first order
approximated to be) independent of speed, so the power required to overcome it
is linear with speed, so we get a total first order equation like:
P = Kf * V + Ka * V^3
As the rolling resistance dominates for much of the lower part of the likely
street speed range for a typical EV (ie. Kf >> Ka), the relationship is not
cubed -- perhaps Peter was indicating that a square relationship is a loose
approximation (ie. an over-estimate of ratios at low speeds, an under-estimate
at high speeds, with the boundary between low/high dependant on the vehicle
aero + rolling characteristics).
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My picks of the bunch:
http://www.evconvert.com
Jerry Halstead's site, has really good weblogs of his two conversions.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
Just lots and lots of information about doing a conversion.
http://www.evalbum.com
Details of heaps of "grassroots" EVs around the world.
On 17/05/2007, at 3:12 PM, Mike Willmon wrote:
-----Original Message-----
Jem Yelkovan wrote:
I am a new member and a beginner. COuld you please
tell me what some good resources are, whether web or
books, where I can learn from to start converting a
car to EV
Right here my friend, right here!
A book worth buying to get some details is Mike Brown's "Convert It"
You can find it and all sorts of parts at his site http://
www.electroauto.com/info/books.shtml
Also try following the many links posted at places like:
http://www.eaaev.org/ (consider joining this association for a nice
News Letter)
www.austinev.org
www.seattleeva.org
www.floridaeaa.org
www.oeva.org
http://www.evadc.org/
www.pluginamerica.com
www.durhamelectricvehicles.com
http://evco.ca/
www.veva.bc.ca
www.alaskaEVA.org
www.phoenixeaa.com
www.teva2.com
http://calcars.org/
www.eaacc.org
www.ebeaa.org
www.konoctieaa.org
www.nbeaa.org
www.evaosd.com
www.sfeva.org
http://geocities.com/sjeaa/
www.eaasv.org
http://geocities.com/vceaa/
www.evclubsouth.org
www.fveaa.org
http://maeaa.org/
http://neeaa.org/
www.pveaa.org
http://mn.eaaev.org/
www.lveva.org
www.rtpnet.org/teaa
www.rtpnet.org/teaa
www.eevc.info
www.aceaa.org
www.heaa.org
http://geocities.com/nteaa
www.saltflats.com
--- End Message ---
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to locate an electric motor for an electric conversion
project and so far I have not had any luck. I need something that is
double shafted with the shaft that is at least 1.125" and ideally 1.170"
AND the motor is less than 8" in diameter.
I know ADC and Netgain produce double shafted motors between 6.7 and 8"
but the comm end is only .875" and with the torque that will go through
the shaft it will twist it right in half.
The TransWarp 9 has the necessary shaft but I do not have the clearance
for such a large diameter motor. I have contacted 5 motor shops with no
luck so far.
I am working on a hybrid truck idea where the motor will go between the
transmission and the differential. It will need to handle nearly 1000
ft-lb of torque as the ICE motor will be left in and used. But we are
hoping the electric will be able to assist and improve gas mileage.
While not a true EV if we can improve gas mileage on the more than
9,000,000 late model trucks and SUV's it will go a long way for cleaner
air and introduce electric concepts to thousands and if a success
millions.
If any of you have leads on a motor manufacturer or motor shop whom may
be willing to build a prototype motor please let me know.
Thank you
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, May 17, 2007 6:21 am, David Hrivnak wrote:
>
>
> I am working on a hybrid truck idea where the motor will go between the
> transmission and the differential. It will need to handle nearly 1000
> ft-lb of torque as the ICE motor will be left in and used. But we are
> hoping the electric will be able to assist and improve gas mileage.
> While not a true EV if we can improve gas mileage on the more than
> 9,000,000 late model trucks and SUV's it will go a long way for cleaner
> air and introduce electric concepts to thousands and if a success
> millions.
I think this is exactly what Netgain has done, with their EMIS system. It
integrates with the vehicle via OBD2:
http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS.html
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is also the www.evdl.org with lots of
information as well.
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Jem Yelkovan wrote:
> >
> > I am a new member and a beginner. COuld you please
> > tell me what some good resources are, whether web
> or
> > books, where I can learn from to start converting
> a
> > car to EV
>
>
> Right here my friend, right here!
> A book worth buying to get some details is Mike
> Brown's "Convert It"
> You can find it and all sorts of parts at his site
> http://www.electroauto.com/info/books.shtml
>
> Also try following the many links posted at places
> like:
> http://www.eaaev.org/ (consider joining this
> association for a nice News Letter)
> www.austinev.org
> www.seattleeva.org
> www.floridaeaa.org
> www.oeva.org
> http://www.evadc.org/
> www.pluginamerica.com
> www.durhamelectricvehicles.com
> http://evco.ca/
> www.veva.bc.ca
> www.alaskaEVA.org
> www.phoenixeaa.com
> www.teva2.com
> http://calcars.org/
> www.eaacc.org
> www.ebeaa.org
> www.konoctieaa.org
> www.nbeaa.org
> www.evaosd.com
> www.sfeva.org
> http://geocities.com/sjeaa/
> www.eaasv.org
> http://geocities.com/vceaa/
> www.evclubsouth.org
> www.fveaa.org
> http://maeaa.org/
> http://neeaa.org/
> www.pveaa.org
> http://mn.eaaev.org/
> www.lveva.org
> www.rtpnet.org/teaa
> www.rtpnet.org/teaa
> www.eevc.info
> www.aceaa.org
> www.heaa.org
> http://geocities.com/nteaa
> www.saltflats.com
>
>
>
>
>
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the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch, my side hurts. I thought it was april 1st again.
The reason aluminum recycling is so profitable and prevelant is that the
amount of energy it takes to get the oxide into a metal form. Aluminum
is not found in metallic form in the environment (at least not until man
put it there)
Id like to see the whole equation including the energy it takes to
reformulate the aluminum.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One last topic to consider.
non-flamable: aluminum,stainless
flammable: all plastics
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Carpenter wanted to know if any List participants had experience with
Discover batteries. Michaela Merz also expressed interest.
Mick says: My company, www.abrahamsolar.com, has been a satisfied customer
for Discover batteries since 2004. Having installed and observed several
sets in action, I feel that the product is excellent. I have not observed
any of these in high rate applications such as electric transport--alternate
energy systems usually place less strenuous demands on their batteries.
I believe the Duffy electric boat company has switched to Discover instead
of the Trojan 6VAGM. I know of one electric vehicle mfr. that is now testing
the Discover product in their application, but I am not at liberty to
disclose that company name.
One thing I dislike about Discover batteries is that they are made in
communist China. I always prefer to buy products that are made in the free
world when possible. In addition to the golf cart type AGM unit mentioned by
Tom, Discover also has an AGM product in a 6 volt floor scrubber sized
battery which is unique in the industry so far as I know. Since I now
distribute a version of the BattEQ(TM) automatic balancer which can balance
down to 6 volt increments in a lead acid pack, I lean towards 6 volt
monoblocs whenever I'm involved in battery system design, so the Discover
floor scrubber AGM product is ideal for that. The models mentioned above
have dual redundant terminals which I prefer when installing. I use the fat
"Ford barrels" with appropriate clamp style cable lugs for the high amp
connections, and the threaded stud terminals are still available for
connecting the balancer wires. The threaded studs are 8mm and I find that a
lug for 5/16" stud size won't fit so I have to use a lug for 3/8" stud size/
AGM's have previously cost about double compared to a "wet" counterpart, and
the cost gap has worsened somewhat of late. The Discover importer attempts
to absorb cost changes throughout the year while holding the line on the
selling price, and then they revise prices each January. The price jump this
last January was a bit of a shocker. Interested parties may contact me off
list for low markup price quotes but I suggest that seat belts be fastened
to minimize price whiplash. Those who want "cheap batteries" should look at
other brands. If a Discover price quote is obtained late in the year, prompt
action is advised to avoid a price disappointment on January 1.
Tom Carpenter had spoken with a Trojan distributor who claimed that "as long
as you were...just using (Discover golf cart type AGM's) at 500 amps or less
you did not have to use batt regulators on them."
Mick says: With every set of Discover AGM's that I have installed, I have
also installed the BattEQ automatic balancer which I also distribute. In
every case as soon as the balancer was turned on, it began pumping small
amounts of energy from channel to channel to achieve microbalance on these
brand new and supposedly identical batteries. That's not a criticism against
Discover, but just a confirmation that every battery string is slightly out
of whack even when brand new. Life being what it is, I feel that "slightly
out of whack" conditions never fix themselves and would only worsen with
time.
Especially given the higher cost of AGM's, I would not suggest gambling on
the above mentioned advice to skip the balancing solution. If AGM batteries
plus equalizers is a budget breaker, perhaps a fall back to wet batteries
should be considered in order to leave room in the budget for a quality
balancing solution.
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
