EV Digest 6787
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Battery chart for a hand-out...
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re ;;Motor wated
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Second contactor location?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Front End Cover -- was Insulated battery box. - and Akron, OH EV club?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Insulated battery box.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor needed
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Re ;;Motor wanted
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Motor needed
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Yeah where is my motor!
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Motor needed
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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thank you for the correction you are right. Hopefully the ICE will idle most
of the time and the electric will provide the extra power. If the electric is
tapped out then the ICE will provide even more. So it is not necessary for the
electric to be sized to provide all the power to accelerate.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Re: Motor needed
Date: Thu May 17, 2007 4:01 pm
Size: 6K
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
I think the idea is to use the cheap efficient electricity to power
accelerations where ICE vehicles waste a fair amount. Stop and go city driving
is hard on an ICE that way. And that was what David stated **To take city MPG
from say 15 to 19 MPG.
**. I'll dissagree with his statement though that the electrics should run
most of the time and the ICE would kick in extra torque. I think thats
backwards. The electrics should provide the short bursts of high torque to get
a load moving and the ICE would run at an average load tuned to its peak
efficiency. This could feasably increase the city mileage from 15 mpg to 19
mpg and I think this is the intent of the Netgain EMIS system.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Motor needed
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> So basically, you're starting the day with a full charge in 600
> lbs of
> batteries, which equates to how many gallons of gas? Less than 1
> gallon I
> believe. If you drive beyond the point that you've used up that
> energy
> (assuning you've saved that many gallons, except you're heavier
> now, so you
> might not actually save one whole gallon), you're dragging around
> around 800
> extra pounds. So beyond that point, it sounds like your mileage
> will be
> significantly worse. How far do you go before the extra weight
> costs you
> another gallon?
>
> I think the idea has promise if you know the daily usage is known
> to be
> enough to use the energy in the batteries (replacing some fuel
> consumption),
> but not much more, where they're dead weight. It sounds like that
> is
> NetGain's target user, like a UPS truck with very consistant use.
> But if
> you are sometimes driving 650 miles a day, and carrying an extra
> 800 lbs,
> are you really going to be saving anything in the long run?
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:54 PM
> Subject: RE: Motor needed
>
>
> > NetGain has developed an interface module to plug into the
> computer. So
> > we are not looking to power the truck by electric only. We are
> looking
> > to assist. To take city MPG from say 15 to 19 MPG.
> >
> > I would love to have full electric BUT if we want to sell a
> system it
> > needs to be affordable. From what I see a 13 inch motor is 2X
> the cost of
> > an 8. I was also planning on about 600 lbs of batteries due to
> cost and
> > space. I want to keep the full bed open and have plenty of
> hauling
> > capacity. So the ICE will always run and the electric will run
> as much as
> > possible while the ICE supplies the extra torque. The hope is
> the ICE
> > will just idle most of the time.
> >
> > So I am looking at an incremental MPG improvement not full
> electric drive.
> > The main reason is I could not find an electric motor set up
> that would
> > work without EXTENSIVE modifications to the truck like taking
> out the
> > motor. Again cost is a factor.
> >
> > That is why I have the 8" motor limitation as I do not want to
> go to the
> > trouble and expense of moving both the gas tank and muffler.
> While EV's
> > have many advantages I do use my truck frequently to drive 650
> miles a day
> > or haul mulch and building supplies. A pure electric will not
> meet the
> > needs. And if we are sucessful even a 25% improvement on some
> 10,000,000
> > (the number of drive by wire trucks on the road) would be like
> 2,500,000
> > EV's on the road. Not perfect but a good step forward.
> >
> >
> >
> > via Treo
> > David Hrivnak
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subj: RE: Motor needed
> > Date: Thu May 17, 2007 12:34 pm
> > Size: 2K
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >
> > I have been thinking about this type of setup with a current truck.
> > There are some things you need to think about:
> >
> > 1. If you are putting the motor between the transmission and the
> > carrier bearing you would be running the motor in direct drive.
> A full
> > size truck with the engine and transmission in it will be around
> 4,000> pounds. Then add about 1500 pounds for batteries (26
> batteries - 156
> > volt, 55 pounds each) and that is HUGE. Even 12 12V batteries
> (144V) is
> > 660 pounds. That I think is too much for even a 13" motor.
> >
> > 2. If you are thinking a Electric Assist, you will need some
> type of
> > control matrix to offer electric push during some of the
> acceleration> but not all. Without it the acceleration would be
> jerky. There is a
> > guy who converted a Neon to electric assist with a 2 cyl diesel
> and was
> > getting around 60 mpg. I think he has a website called 21
> ponies. He
> > did the electric motor with his finger on the stick shift. I
> don't know
> > how well that worked.
> >
> > I think you would want the largest motor possible. Anything smaller
> > would be very difficult to get the torque needed without ruining the
> > motor prematurely.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of David Hrivnak
> > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:22
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Motor needed
> >
> >
> > I am trying to locate an electric motor for an electric conversion
> > project and so far I have not had any luck. I need something
> that is
> > double shafted with the shaft that is at least 1.125" and
> ideally 1.170"
> > AND the motor is less than 8" in diameter.
> >
> > I know ADC and Netgain produce double shafted motors between 6.7
> and 8"
> > but the comm end is only .875" and with the torque that will go
> through> the shaft it will twist it right in half.
> >
> > The TransWarp 9 has the necessary shaft but I do not have the
> clearance> for such a large diameter motor. I have contacted 5
> motor shops with no
> > luck so far.
> >
> > I am working on a hybrid truck idea where the motor will go
> between the
> > transmission and the differential. It will need to handle
> nearly 1000
> > ft-lb of torque as the ICE motor will be left in and used. But
> we are
> > hoping the electric will be able to assist and improve gas mileage.
> > While not a true EV if we can improve gas mileage on the more than
> > 9,000,000 late model trucks and SUV's it will go a long way for
> cleaner> air and introduce electric concepts to thousands and if a
> success> millions.
> >
> > If any of you have leads on a motor manufacturer or motor shop
> whom may
> > be willing to build a prototype motor please let me know.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> >
> > David J. Hrivnak
> >
> > www.hrivnak.com
> >
> > Personal Account WWJD?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar told me that the usual method is to put them both into the positive leg.
It's worked for me. If you have some reason you want the controller totally
disconnected from the pack during charging, it may be a good idea to put one in
each.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:51:45 PM
Subject: Second contactor location?
I'm using two SW200 contactors with my Zilla 1k. Both will be in the
same location one as the main and the second switching the entire
pack off with the ignition key. Is there a preference to put the pack
contactor on the positive or negative side. IE, example #1- pack
contactor then main contactor in series before Zilla. Example two
main contactor as usual before Zilla then the pack contactor on the
NEGATIVE side of the Zilla between the pack and the ZIlla.
Thanks,
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The cycle life on A123 Systems cells is actually much more than 1,000
cycles, if you rate it the same way other manufacturers' do. The
1,000 rating is for just 5% loss of capacity. If you rate it to 50%
loss of capacity, (like lead-acid AGMs are rated) the cycle life is
10,000 cycles.
I don't think Li-Ion FePo has a calender capacity loss like
conventional Li-Ion does. The chemistry is much more stable.
Bill Dube'
At 05:35 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
I'm manning a booth at the Maker Faire (San Mateo County Fairgrounds, May
19-20, http://www.makerfaire.com ) over the weekend and wanted to give a
hand-out regarding EVs. In addition to some white papers by Tesla, I wanted
to put together two charts.
The first one, I was hoping to put gas price over time, vs battery cost over
time. Does anyone know where I'd get data for battery cost? Say, for NiMH
and LiIon, over the past 10 years or so?
The second one was inspired by
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
and it's a chart of battery specs, with an added emphasis on total cost of
the battery, per kilowatt-hour, over the lifetime of the battery. Here it
is so far... does anyone have good info on what a modern NiCad would be to
use? Anyone had experience (and pricing) with Valence's U-Charge? Also,
what's the realistic peak power out of a flooded lead-acid or hawker
Genesis? (I figure the racers on this list would know for real...)
Tech Density #Cycles Discharge Cost
Wh/kg W/kg (per month) $/kWh $/kW $/LifeTimekWh
Est Range
Flooded lead-acid 47 600 20%? $85 $0.14
"AGM" lead-acid 35 412? 500 5%? $145 $12?
$0.29 ~60
NiCad 50? 2000? 100%? $300? $0.15
NiMH (Nilar) 55 385 4000 $960 $137
$0.24 ~110
LiIon (18650) 176 631 500 ??% $535 $149
$1.07 ~250
LiPho (A123) 110 3000 1000* $1300 $47
$1.30 ~180
Notes:
LiIon loses 5% of capacity per year, regardless of whether you use it. See
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article5-Page1.asp
NiCads have severe memory effects.
W/kg is max possible "peak" rate.
Wh/kg is "average" or "nominal" discharge rate.
Range is affected by how much extra packaging must surround the battery, for
example extra temperature monitoring that affects 18650 cells.
18650 cells est. at $5 each
* - cycles claimed by A123
Sources:
http://www.nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33&languageID=1
NiMH based on Nilar 24V 9AHr=216WHr @3.9kg $208 each
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
=> 56kWH, 200kW, 200 miles, 375V, 450kg (317kg batt weight est)
6,831 cells, 46.5g each at $5 each would be $34,150 for 56kWHr
http://libattery.ustc.edu.cn/english/introduction%203.htm
Flooded specs based on US Battery US185 spec 195AHr=2340WHr @49kg $200
AGM Specs based on Hawker G70EP 72AHr=864WHr @24.9kg $125
A123 specs based on 3.3V, 2.3Ah, 7.6WHr @70g $10.00 (dev kits are $20 each
in much smaller quantity)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
Nice conversion!
I just checked out the EValbum and never realized
you live over in Wooster.
I live in the Portage Lakes area (south of Akron).
FYI. We're trying to form an EV group for the area and
Dana Myers (the guy who bought the Sparrow AKA NMG)
brother said we could possibly have a meeting at the
Myers Motors facility.
I'll let you know if this happens, Seth (Dana's
brother) is kind of busy like the rest of us and we
haven't committed to any dates. Perhaps more interest
would get things going. David Roden, who is the list
administrator lives about 4 miles south of me and
might also participate.
OK guys, what are we waiting for?
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That looks nice! My existing grill is a little
> cracked. I could perform that same operation and it
> would stop the rack from running and make the truck
> look spiffy too. Thanks for the idea.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: Front End Cover -- was Insulated
> battery box.
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> > On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 13:16 -0700, Grigg. John
> wrote:
> > > Rich, I was checking out your truck photos and I
> like that cover you
> > > have in place of the front grill on your truck.
> Where did you
> > get it?
> > > --- John
> >
> > I took the stock plastic grill, put duct tape over
> the backside of the
> > openings, squirted expandable foam into the
> openings, shaved off the
> > overage, and then bondoed over the top. It kind
> of had an alien
> > look to
> > it at first so I had that "ELECTRIC" sign made.
> >
> > Rich,
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1130
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of us use polypropylene, but you say
"non-combustible". Hopefully you aren't going to be
operating them near a flame or in such a way that they
would make an unsafe EV...?
Port Plastics, if you're on the W. coast.
peace,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am making battery boxes and want to insulate them
> with rigid
> noncombustible material about an inch thick. What
> will be a good material
> and where is the best place to get it? Thanks for
> all responses
> JJ
>
> >
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________Pinpoint
customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So the chart that A123 publishes that shows 20% loss at 1000 cycles at
10C discharge is not correct?
Bill Dube wrote:
The cycle life on A123 Systems cells is actually much more than 1,000
cycles, if you rate it the same way other manufacturers' do. The 1,000
rating is for just 5% loss of capacity. If you rate it to 50% loss of
capacity, (like lead-acid AGMs are rated) the cycle life is 10,000 cycles.
I don't think Li-Ion FePo has a calender capacity loss like conventional
Li-Ion does. The chemistry is much more stable.
Bill Dube'
At 05:35 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
I'm manning a booth at the Maker Faire (San Mateo County Fairgrounds, May
19-20, http://www.makerfaire.com ) over the weekend and wanted to give a
hand-out regarding EVs. In addition to some white papers by Tesla, I
wanted
to put together two charts.
The first one, I was hoping to put gas price over time, vs battery
cost over
time. Does anyone know where I'd get data for battery cost? Say, for
NiMH
and LiIon, over the past 10 years or so?
The second one was inspired by
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
and it's a chart of battery specs, with an added emphasis on total
cost of
the battery, per kilowatt-hour, over the lifetime of the battery.
Here it
is so far... does anyone have good info on what a modern NiCad would
be to
use? Anyone had experience (and pricing) with Valence's U-Charge? Also,
what's the realistic peak power out of a flooded lead-acid or hawker
Genesis? (I figure the racers on this list would know for real...)
Tech Density #Cycles Discharge Cost
Wh/kg W/kg (per month) $/kWh $/kW
$/LifeTimekWh
Est Range
Flooded lead-acid 47 600 20%? $85 $0.14
"AGM" lead-acid 35 412? 500 5%? $145 $12?
$0.29 ~60
NiCad 50? 2000? 100%? $300? $0.15
NiMH (Nilar) 55 385 4000 $960 $137
$0.24 ~110
LiIon (18650) 176 631 500 ??% $535 $149
$1.07 ~250
LiPho (A123) 110 3000 1000* $1300 $47
$1.30 ~180
Notes:
LiIon loses 5% of capacity per year, regardless of whether you use it.
See
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article5-Page1.asp
NiCads have severe memory effects.
W/kg is max possible "peak" rate.
Wh/kg is "average" or "nominal" discharge rate.
Range is affected by how much extra packaging must surround the
battery, for
example extra temperature monitoring that affects 18650 cells.
18650 cells est. at $5 each
* - cycles claimed by A123
Sources:
http://www.nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33&languageID=1
NiMH based on Nilar 24V 9AHr=216WHr @3.9kg $208 each
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
=> 56kWH, 200kW, 200 miles, 375V, 450kg (317kg batt weight est)
6,831 cells, 46.5g each at $5 each would be $34,150 for 56kWHr
http://libattery.ustc.edu.cn/english/introduction%203.htm
Flooded specs based on US Battery US185 spec 195AHr=2340WHr @49kg $200
AGM Specs based on Hawker G70EP 72AHr=864WHr @24.9kg $125
A123 specs based on 3.3V, 2.3Ah, 7.6WHr @70g $10.00 (dev kits are $20
each
in much smaller quantity)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey David, all
First off I apologize for not having gotten back to
you privately when you emailed me, in fact there are
probably two dozen emails that I'd like to find time
for.
The basic jist on David's project is he needs a
slender motor with dual big shafts. The Siamese7 that
Damon has talked about was started for David in fact.
The issue is the 1 1/8" output shafts are in fact like
.050 over that and the armature holes are just a tad
to small to even attempt to press it. Being "both ends
are bigger than the armature hole there is no way to
get it in without boring the armatures which would be
a nightmare trying to bore out.
Anyway I've had much time to ponder this project and I
really do lean toward a dual motor setup here as it
would have 16 brushes compared to a single 9's eight
and I really feel that'd help carry the current
better. You'd also have the option of being able to
wire them for series or parallel running in maybe one
guy lives in SF and another in flatland, or maybe a
city vs. highway setup. Because this motor / motors
will be in-line with the driveine it's worst enemy
will be the lack of RPM's as they will only be
approaching good RPM's at upper speeds, again my
reasoning for feeling a dual comm'ed setup would
almost be needed.
Here's the deal, the shell and guts sit right where
they where when we talked last as I've been debating
whether to do a Siamese7 or split them back up and
just build two small but nice motors to sell.
The problem for me is I'm not a shaft maker and for
the racers I wouldn't want to use anyone but
Dutchman's but on lets say these littler 6 and 7 inch
motors I need to find something a little more
semi-production priced. Anyway I'll toss the ball
back in your court and maybe to the list whether
anyone would be willing to work up a shaft. I could
supply an OEM shaft and drawing. Face it some want
the premium and then there are the poor bastards like
us who want it as cheap as possible 8^o Having that
option would be a good thing where I could in fact do
more of these.
If there is anyone who'd like to take a crack at
making me a shaft give me a write off list.
Problem number two for this project is I got motors in
for 4 of the top racers on my plate right now and well
let's just say I'm very pressured for deadlines at the
moment. I feel a little like "what about Bob" I'm
baby stepping, I'm doing the work, I'm not a slacker,
LMAO. In fact I did a Portland run today and picked
just 1 up and said thank God, hehe.
Anyway I wanted to get something in here for you and I
know not really what you wanted to hear 8^(
FWIW an 8" would give enough hole size but a single 8
won't do the job and getting two 8's gets pricey.
again sorry for the late write back.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo!
oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I mentioned in a post yesterday, (in answer to YOUR post) the
temperature is what really matters in the cycle life. The
high-current cycle tests makes the cells run at high temperatures,
and thus shorten cycle life.
If you look at the chart
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf
you will notice that the 25 C curve indicates a 5% capacity loss
after 1,000 cycles. (This is what you would expect in the typical EV
environment.)
Looking at the 60 C curve, you see that the capacity loss is about
25%. after 1,000 cycles. At the same current, but at 45 C, the curve
shows about 12% loss after 1,000 cycles.
EVs typically discharge batteries at 1C, sometimes less, sometimes a
bit more. Low internal resistance keeps the cell temperature at 30 C
or below. Thus, in an EV, you can expect the cycle life of about
10,000 cycles to 50% capacity.
Why don't you dig up the cycle life of an Optima at 10 C
discharge at 60 C? You can't find this chart because the battery
would be a puddle of smoking molten goo at this temperature.
Bill Dube'
At 06:49 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
So the chart that A123 publishes that shows 20% loss at 1000 cycles
at 10C discharge is not correct?
Bill Dube wrote:
The cycle life on A123 Systems cells is actually much more than
1,000 cycles, if you rate it the same way other manufacturers' do.
The 1,000 rating is for just 5% loss of capacity. If you rate it to
50% loss of capacity, (like lead-acid AGMs are rated) the cycle
life is 10,000 cycles.
I don't think Li-Ion FePo has a calender capacity loss like
conventional Li-Ion does. The chemistry is much more stable.
Bill Dube'
At 05:35 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
I'm manning a booth at the Maker Faire (San Mateo County Fairgrounds, May
19-20, http://www.makerfaire.com ) over the weekend and wanted to give a
hand-out regarding EVs. In addition to some white papers by Tesla, I wanted
to put together two charts.
The first one, I was hoping to put gas price over time, vs battery cost over
time. Does anyone know where I'd get data for battery cost? Say, for NiMH
and LiIon, over the past 10 years or so?
The second one was inspired by
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
and it's a chart of battery specs, with an added emphasis on total cost of
the battery, per kilowatt-hour, over the lifetime of the battery.
Here it
is so far... does anyone have good info on what a modern NiCad would be to
use? Anyone had experience (and pricing) with Valence's U-Charge? Also,
what's the realistic peak power out of a flooded lead-acid or hawker
Genesis? (I figure the racers on this list would know for real...)
Tech Density #Cycles Discharge Cost
Wh/kg W/kg (per month) $/kWh $/kW $/LifeTimekWh
Est Range
Flooded lead-acid 47 600 20%? $85 $0.14
"AGM" lead-acid 35 412? 500 5%? $145 $12?
$0.29 ~60
NiCad 50? 2000? 100%? $300? $0.15
NiMH (Nilar) 55 385 4000 $960 $137
$0.24 ~110
LiIon (18650) 176 631 500 ??% $535 $149
$1.07 ~250
LiPho (A123) 110 3000 1000* $1300 $47
$1.30 ~180
Notes:
LiIon loses 5% of capacity per year, regardless of whether you use it. See
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article5-Page1.asp
NiCads have severe memory effects.
W/kg is max possible "peak" rate.
Wh/kg is "average" or "nominal" discharge rate.
Range is affected by how much extra packaging must surround the battery, for
example extra temperature monitoring that affects 18650 cells.
18650 cells est. at $5 each
* - cycles claimed by A123
Sources:
http://www.nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33&languageID=1
NiMH based on Nilar 24V 9AHr=216WHr @3.9kg $208 each
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
=> 56kWH, 200kW, 200 miles, 375V, 450kg (317kg batt weight est)
6,831 cells, 46.5g each at $5 each would be $34,150 for 56kWHr
http://libattery.ustc.edu.cn/english/introduction%203.htm
Flooded specs based on US Battery US185 spec 195AHr=2340WHr @49kg $200
AGM Specs based on Hawker G70EP 72AHr=864WHr @24.9kg $125
A123 specs based on 3.3V, 2.3Ah, 7.6WHr @70g $10.00 (dev kits are $20 each
in much smaller quantity)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please let me know if you come across a skinner cousin as I am limited
to 8" I am afraid unless I do some major frame realignment. The car is
too good for that.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sharon G Alexander
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:44 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re ;;Motor wated
a few years ago, maybe the 70s, Clark Equipt. Co, had a fork lift with
a 13 in motor with twin shafts, both at 1 &/1/2 in size, the rear was
for a drum brake that was cable opperated, off the dash, How do I know
this???? cus I had to spend all day changing the worn out brakes on
the damn forklift, when I was working on them.. Miserable job to do..I
have one of them, sitting collection dust. some day it will go in a EV.
wayne..
www.ev-blue.com site by go-wheels.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe George says it is a custom built 8" motor. At one point he
offered to sell it to me and I just may take him up on that offer as it
is the only thing I have found so far.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Motor needed
On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 09:53 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I agree and am working with NetGain but the current NetGain motor is
9" and while that works in a UPS van there is not enough clearance in
pickups or SUV's.
Then, this constitutes a [confusing] change in the product since I saw
it in Chicago last year. The original vehicle on which EMIS was
developed was a Chevy Blazer.
I don't quite remember what motor they were using, but I'm thinking it
was a Warp8, adapted for efficiency at the driveshaft's lower RPM.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What that chart shows:
1C the loss is 5% at 25C after 1000 cycles
2C the loss is 10% at 45C
2C the loss is 20% at 60C
All I can really say is you are now Bill the Battery Salesman
to say expect 10,000 cycles for an EV.
Jack Murray
Bill Dube wrote:
As I mentioned in a post yesterday, (in answer to YOUR post) the
temperature is what really matters in the cycle life. The high-current
cycle tests makes the cells run at high temperatures, and thus shorten
cycle life.
If you look at the chart
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf
you will notice that the 25 C curve indicates a 5% capacity loss after
1,000 cycles. (This is what you would expect in the typical EV
environment.)
Looking at the 60 C curve, you see that the capacity loss is about 25%.
after 1,000 cycles. At the same current, but at 45 C, the curve shows
about 12% loss after 1,000 cycles.
EVs typically discharge batteries at 1C, sometimes less, sometimes a bit
more. Low internal resistance keeps the cell temperature at 30 C or
below. Thus, in an EV, you can expect the cycle life of about 10,000
cycles to 50% capacity.
Why don't you dig up the cycle life of an Optima at 10 C
discharge at 60 C? You can't find this chart because the battery would
be a puddle of smoking molten goo at this temperature.
Bill Dube'
At 06:49 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
So the chart that A123 publishes that shows 20% loss at 1000 cycles at
10C discharge is not correct?
Bill Dube wrote:
The cycle life on A123 Systems cells is actually much more than 1,000
cycles, if you rate it the same way other manufacturers' do. The
1,000 rating is for just 5% loss of capacity. If you rate it to 50%
loss of capacity, (like lead-acid AGMs are rated) the cycle life is
10,000 cycles.
I don't think Li-Ion FePo has a calender capacity loss like
conventional Li-Ion does. The chemistry is much more stable.
Bill Dube'
At 05:35 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
I'm manning a booth at the Maker Faire (San Mateo County
Fairgrounds, May
19-20, http://www.makerfaire.com ) over the weekend and wanted to
give a
hand-out regarding EVs. In addition to some white papers by Tesla,
I wanted
to put together two charts.
The first one, I was hoping to put gas price over time, vs battery
cost over
time. Does anyone know where I'd get data for battery cost? Say,
for NiMH
and LiIon, over the past 10 years or so?
The second one was inspired by
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
and it's a chart of battery specs, with an added emphasis on total
cost of
the battery, per kilowatt-hour, over the lifetime of the battery.
Here it
is so far... does anyone have good info on what a modern NiCad would
be to
use? Anyone had experience (and pricing) with Valence's U-Charge?
Also,
what's the realistic peak power out of a flooded lead-acid or hawker
Genesis? (I figure the racers on this list would know for real...)
Tech Density #Cycles Discharge Cost
Wh/kg W/kg (per month) $/kWh $/kW
$/LifeTimekWh
Est Range
Flooded lead-acid 47 600 20%? $85 $0.14
"AGM" lead-acid 35 412? 500 5%? $145 $12?
$0.29 ~60
NiCad 50? 2000? 100%? $300? $0.15
NiMH (Nilar) 55 385 4000 $960 $137
$0.24 ~110
LiIon (18650) 176 631 500 ??% $535 $149
$1.07 ~250
LiPho (A123) 110 3000 1000* $1300 $47
$1.30 ~180
Notes:
LiIon loses 5% of capacity per year, regardless of whether you use
it. See
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article5-Page1.asp
NiCads have severe memory effects.
W/kg is max possible "peak" rate.
Wh/kg is "average" or "nominal" discharge rate.
Range is affected by how much extra packaging must surround the
battery, for
example extra temperature monitoring that affects 18650 cells.
18650 cells est. at $5 each
* - cycles claimed by A123
Sources:
http://www.nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33&languageID=1
NiMH based on Nilar 24V 9AHr=216WHr @3.9kg $208 each
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
=> 56kWH, 200kW, 200 miles, 375V, 450kg (317kg batt weight est)
6,831 cells, 46.5g each at $5 each would be $34,150 for 56kWHr
http://libattery.ustc.edu.cn/english/introduction%203.htm
Flooded specs based on US Battery US185 spec 195AHr=2340WHr @49kg $200
AGM Specs based on Hawker G70EP 72AHr=864WHr @24.9kg $125
A123 specs based on 3.3V, 2.3Ah, 7.6WHr @70g $10.00 (dev kits are
$20 each
in much smaller quantity)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I figuered I'd just send a blanket email to the list
and get EVeryone an update on their stuff. Kinda
checks to see if they read my stuff also 8^P
Lets see where to start...
Bill, Killacycles stuff will go out Monday, sorry best
I can do. I got some 30 mil Nomex that's Viagra stiff
and thick so I'm hoping it'll give trojon protection
8^o to the springs. BTW I'm hoping you were wanting
complete brushriggings and leads, cause that's what
you getting.
Chip, the shaft got keyed today and I'll get the motor
out to you next week where you should still have time
to put you fingerprints all over it, LMAO.
This year Wayland got me a nice 6.7" GE motor I'm
modding for Chip for the Power of DC. Hopefully all
you east ended guys will throw a couple bucks at it
and help Chip for all he does and maybe even win a
nice little motor to play with 8^)
Lawless, waiting on Keith for the shaft as well as
that additional info we talked about (kinda hand and
hand). I'll be sending the first two housing
assemblys to paint here soon and will shoot you some
pics soon. BTW grab some pics of that motor roast you
did as I'd love to get em up at the hall of flames 8^)
those and about 80 other pics I need to post 8^(
Willmon, I've been working with George Hamstra at
Netgain and have decided to go with the standard Warp9
brush set. The Transwarp9 and Warp9 have / had
different brushes and ring assemblys. They both ran
great and same speed but being Mike is gonna be racing
these as a pair I feel it'd be better to have matching
brush rigging so there can't be a weaker one.
Just to be clear I'm not even saying ones better than
the other, I just want matching, sorry if I'm a pain
in the butt George 8^o FWIW the new Transwarp aspect
is really awesome! Anyway Mike that's the poop, I do
have to clear my plate a bit but it won't take long to
put the bling you're looking for into these.
Eduardo, ADC told me the shafts where in stock, I
ordered 3 so I could shelf a couple, 0 showed up with
the order and the guys been on vacation all week so I
don't yet know if he forgot them or they weren't
"actually" in stock when they went to pull the order.
Makes me look like an idiot (really not that hard to
do) but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it
until I get them. Your "Damon" twin is all but done
and sits under a towel waiting, no more than a couple
hours from being finished.
Let's see who am I forgetting...
Oh yeah, Wayland. Well it's good to hear you got the
Zombie back up and terrorizing the streets of Portland
and no sweat adding a little extra work for me as you
pound the motor with just 15 springs. You know it is
almost an issue with you to break stuff isn't it!
Anyway it sound's like you're done playing around at
Vinneys garage so you better pull that motor this
weekend or well, I won't like you much anymore if you
don't so there!
BTW you sound so nice on the radio! Cheryl must have
made you take your medicine or something! I kept
saying to myself "why couldn't that guy have been the
one I drove to Joliet with?" LMAO! I just got around
to listening to it this morning and it was really
great. Thanks as always for the love. Actually you
were just hosing the love there almost to the point
the guy should have said "hey this is about you
numbnut"! Kudos to you John! Truly jazzed for you
and all the cool stuff you've got on your plate.
Damon, back away from my Siamese6, yeah I saw you
eyeballing it. It's actually in pieces so HA! The
arms a little out of balance so I'm gonna address that
and I'm kinda toying with using it myself. Anyway I
just wanted to say that I saw your post coveting my
motor, tisk, tisk. BTW hows that holely cheese motor
I butchered for you coming? 8^o
Anyway I just thought I'd kill a bunch of birds with
one email. Kinda throw something at the list and air
my underwear out on the bummers of being a small shop.
I'll keep you all posted as things go out and happy
racing!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________Get
the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware
protection.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim would love to work with you. With your reputation I have confidence
you will do it right.
I see two options, 1) we go with a 1.125 shaft and I just find a way to
couple on my end. We have some smart people and I think I can make a go
of it. We have a Chemical plant with more than 10,000 motors just down
the street and the Bristol race track just up the street.
I could make up a shaft to your specifications splined at 1.170. For me
this would be ideal. Just tell me now to make the shafts and I will get
a few quotes here. I was going to join two transmission output shafts
for about $300 and they would just need to grind down the proper bearing
surfaces. The juncture where they are joined should be in the armature
where strength is not quite as important.
I have learned I will have to be patient. So far my other ideas have
not panned out well but I HAVE NOT GIVEN-UP
Thanks Jim.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:14 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Motor needed
Hey David, all
First off I apologize for not having gotten back to
you privately when you emailed me, in fact there are
probably two dozen emails that I'd like to find time
for.
The basic jist on David's project is he needs a
slender motor with dual big shafts. The Siamese7 that
Damon has talked about was started for David in fact.
The issue is the 1 1/8" output shafts are in fact like
.050 over that and the armature holes are just a tad
to small to even attempt to press it. Being "both ends
are bigger than the armature hole there is no way to
get it in without boring the armatures which would be
a nightmare trying to bore out.
Anyway I've had much time to ponder this project and I
really do lean toward a dual motor setup here as it
would have 16 brushes compared to a single 9's eight
and I really feel that'd help carry the current
better. You'd also have the option of being able to
wire them for series or parallel running in maybe one
guy lives in SF and another in flatland, or maybe a
city vs. highway setup. Because this motor / motors
will be in-line with the driveine it's worst enemy
will be the lack of RPM's as they will only be
approaching good RPM's at upper speeds, again my
reasoning for feeling a dual comm'ed setup would
almost be needed.
Here's the deal, the shell and guts sit right where
they where when we talked last as I've been debating
whether to do a Siamese7 or split them back up and
just build two small but nice motors to sell.
The problem for me is I'm not a shaft maker and for
the racers I wouldn't want to use anyone but
Dutchman's but on lets say these littler 6 and 7 inch
motors I need to find something a little more
semi-production priced. Anyway I'll toss the ball
back in your court and maybe to the list whether
anyone would be willing to work up a shaft. I could
supply an OEM shaft and drawing. Face it some want
the premium and then there are the poor bastards like
us who want it as cheap as possible 8^o Having that
option would be a good thing where I could in fact do
more of these.
If there is anyone who'd like to take a crack at
making me a shaft give me a write off list.
Problem number two for this project is I got motors in
for 4 of the top racers on my plate right now and well
let's just say I'm very pressured for deadlines at the
moment. I feel a little like "what about Bob" I'm
baby stepping, I'm doing the work, I'm not a slacker,
LMAO. In fact I did a Portland run today and picked
just 1 up and said thank God, hehe.
Anyway I wanted to get something in here for you and I
know not really what you wanted to hear 8^(
FWIW an 8" would give enough hole size but a single 8
won't do the job and getting two 8's gets pricey.
again sorry for the late write back.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- End Message ---
