EV Digest 6788
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New to the list, but intrigued w/ questions
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Jlg scissor lift hub motors
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor needed
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Preferred polarity for Airpax circuit breader
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Yeah where is my motor!
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Yeah where is my motor!
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Motor needed
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Yeah where is my motor!
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Yeah where is my motor!
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
Welcome to the EV List. Same as was posted, I ask that you read
the http://evdl.org faq.
So that we can help you we would like to know more of you and
your needs:
-Where are you located?
-What are your driving needs (not what you want but what you
need most of the time): how far do you commute and at what speed?
-Can you recharge at home or use public EV charging?
-How much money did you plan to spend? (define expensive)
-How knowledgeable are you are auto mechanics or electrical work?
As it has been posted, running an EV off a generator is more
costly (both $ and in pollution) than driving a small efficient
fuel vehicle (ICE).
In your original post (below) I will try to address your
questions:
-Yes used parts can be used
-As long as those parts are in good shape and not defective
-Running a small generator to only charge the battery pack is
called a serial hybrid design. As stated it is not a permanent
design solution as it would cost too much in fuel and in
pollution.
-Also a small generator is not enough to drive the wheels on
the road, it is only good to recharge the pack over several
hours (i.e.: while the EV is parked and you are at work
where there is no EV charging).
There will be no quick answer until you understand your EV
driving needs, and what will or will-not fit your EV
driving needs.
Once you have learned what your EV driving needs are, you
could look at the http://evdl.org EVDL Album for vehicles
that fit your needs.
An EV is an vehicle, thus it is going to cost money. Usually
an EV purchase is a commitment for a period of time to get
a return on yor money.
I might be if your regular commute is not that demanding,
and that a nice clean used EV is available at an affordable
cost. An used EV purchase means you would not have to 'make'
an EV as most people assume.
There are used EVs for Sale page links on the national EAA
web site http://eaaev.org
Please also use that site to know of EAA chapters or EV
organizations near you. You could network with them, and ride
in EVs. Half of learning EVs is to sit-n-ride in EVs to know
how they drive and feel.
Please post the answers to my above questions, and keep posting
your EV questions.
-
Hello - I never realized the amount of people involved in EV.
Anyway, I would love to try it but for me, for now, the costs
involved seem quite high.
-Can used parts be had for the conversion?
-[Is that a] Good idea/bad idea?
-[Could] a small generator] be run on board? This is not to run
the motor directly but to provide charge for distance.
-Perhaps less batteries for the trade off??
Information, sources etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Mike Cattaneo
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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--- Begin Message ---
You need to dust off your calculator and actually do the math.
At 50% capacity loss (10 times 5%) you will get 10,000 cycles (10
times 1,000.) This is direct quote from the engineers a A123 Systems.
I don't make this stuff up.
By the way, can you find another brand of battery that lists the
cycle life for 10 C discharge?
At 08:33 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
What that chart shows:
1C the loss is 5% at 25C after 1000 cycles
2C the loss is 10% at 45C
2C the loss is 20% at 60C
All I can really say is you are now Bill the Battery Salesman
to say expect 10,000 cycles for an EV.
Jack Murray
Bill Dube wrote:
As I mentioned in a post yesterday, (in answer to YOUR post) the
temperature is what really matters in the cycle life. The
high-current cycle tests makes the cells run at high temperatures,
and thus shorten cycle life.
If you look at the chart
http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/pdf/ANR26650M1_Datasheet_FEB2007-1.pdf
you will notice that the 25 C curve indicates a 5% capacity loss
after 1,000 cycles. (This is what you would expect in the typical
EV environment.)
Looking at the 60 C curve, you see that the capacity loss is about
25%. after 1,000 cycles. At the same current, but at 45 C, the
curve shows about 12% loss after 1,000 cycles.
EVs typically discharge batteries at 1C, sometimes less, sometimes
a bit more. Low internal resistance keeps the cell temperature at
30 C or below. Thus, in an EV, you can expect the cycle life of
about 10,000 cycles to 50% capacity.
Why don't you dig up the cycle life of an Optima at 10 C
discharge at 60 C? You can't find this chart because the battery
would be a puddle of smoking molten goo at this temperature.
Bill Dube'
At 06:49 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
So the chart that A123 publishes that shows 20% loss at 1000
cycles at 10C discharge is not correct?
Bill Dube wrote:
The cycle life on A123 Systems cells is actually much more than
1,000 cycles, if you rate it the same way other manufacturers'
do. The 1,000 rating is for just 5% loss of capacity. If you rate
it to 50% loss of capacity, (like lead-acid AGMs are rated) the
cycle life is 10,000 cycles.
I don't think Li-Ion FePo has a calender capacity loss like
conventional Li-Ion does. The chemistry is much more stable.
Bill Dube'
At 05:35 PM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
I'm manning a booth at the Maker Faire (San Mateo County Fairgrounds, May
19-20, http://www.makerfaire.com ) over the weekend and wanted to give a
hand-out regarding EVs. In addition to some white papers by
Tesla, I wanted
to put together two charts.
The first one, I was hoping to put gas price over time, vs
battery cost over
time. Does anyone know where I'd get data for battery
cost? Say, for NiMH
and LiIon, over the past 10 years or so?
The second one was inspired by
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
and it's a chart of battery specs, with an added emphasis on total cost of
the battery, per kilowatt-hour, over the lifetime of the battery.
Here it
is so far... does anyone have good info on what a modern NiCad would be to
use? Anyone had experience (and pricing) with Valence's U-Charge?
Also,
what's the realistic peak power out of a flooded lead-acid or hawker
Genesis? (I figure the racers on this list would know for real...)
Tech Density #Cycles Discharge Cost
Wh/kg W/kg (per month) $/kWh $/kW
$/LifeTimekWh
Est Range
Flooded lead-acid 47 600 20%? $85 $0.14
"AGM" lead-acid 35 412? 500 5%? $145 $12?
$0.29 ~60
NiCad 50? 2000? 100%? $300? $0.15
NiMH (Nilar) 55 385 4000 $960 $137
$0.24 ~110
LiIon (18650) 176 631 500 ??% $535 $149
$1.07 ~250
LiPho (A123) 110 3000 1000* $1300 $47
$1.30 ~180
Notes:
LiIon loses 5% of capacity per year, regardless of whether you use it. See
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article5-Page1.asp
NiCads have severe memory effects.
W/kg is max possible "peak" rate.
Wh/kg is "average" or "nominal" discharge rate.
Range is affected by how much extra packaging must surround the
battery, for
example extra temperature monitoring that affects 18650 cells.
18650 cells est. at $5 each
* - cycles claimed by A123
Sources:
http://www.nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33&languageID=1
NiMH based on Nilar 24V 9AHr=216WHr @3.9kg $208 each
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryTechnologyComparison.html
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
=> 56kWH, 200kW, 200 miles, 375V, 450kg (317kg batt weight est)
6,831 cells, 46.5g each at $5 each would be $34,150 for 56kWHr
http://libattery.ustc.edu.cn/english/introduction%203.htm
Flooded specs based on US Battery US185 spec 195AHr=2340WHr @49kg $200
AGM Specs based on Hawker G70EP 72AHr=864WHr @24.9kg $125
A123 specs based on 3.3V, 2.3Ah, 7.6WHr @70g $10.00 (dev kits
are $20 each
in much smaller quantity)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just happened to notice that a jlg scissors lift has one motor in each
front wheel hub
Called a "fairfield mfg co torque hub"
Couldn't read the specs but might be the basis for an interesting leight
weight trike design.
It had a 600 v rated high amp cable running to it.
Probably would need regearing though because these are set up for slow
speed high torque movement.
Each motor's size is about 8" -10" long and about 5 inches diameter.
Www.jlg.com was on its side. They might have more specs there.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Motor needed
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 19:48:00 -0400
thank you for the correction you are right. Hopefully the ICE will idle
most of the time and the electric will provide the extra power. If the
electric is tapped out then the ICE will provide even more. So it is not
necessary for the electric to be sized to provide all the power to
accelerate.
You really don't want the ICE to idle most of the time. An ICE engine is
more efficient ( or at least, less inefficient) at higher power outputs and
has very poor efficiency at low power outputs. In fact, it has zero
efficiency when idling, since it is using fuel and supplying no useful work.
When you don't need the ICE to supply power, turning it off is the best
thing to do.
Phil
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Re: Motor needed
Date: Thu May 17, 2007 4:01 pm
Size: 6K
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
I think the idea is to use the cheap efficient electricity to power
accelerations where ICE vehicles waste a fair amount. Stop and go city
driving is hard on an ICE that way. And that was what David stated **To
take city MPG from say 15 to 19 MPG.
**. I'll dissagree with his statement though that the electrics should run
most of the time and the ICE would kick in extra torque. I think thats
backwards. The electrics should provide the short bursts of high torque to
get a load moving and the ICE would run at an average load tuned to its
peak efficiency. This could feasably increase the city mileage from 15 mpg
to 19 mpg and I think this is the intent of the Netgain EMIS system.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Motor needed
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> So basically, you're starting the day with a full charge in 600
> lbs of
> batteries, which equates to how many gallons of gas? Less than 1
> gallon I
> believe. If you drive beyond the point that you've used up that
> energy
> (assuning you've saved that many gallons, except you're heavier
> now, so you
> might not actually save one whole gallon), you're dragging around
> around 800
> extra pounds. So beyond that point, it sounds like your mileage
> will be
> significantly worse. How far do you go before the extra weight
> costs you
> another gallon?
>
> I think the idea has promise if you know the daily usage is known
> to be
> enough to use the energy in the batteries (replacing some fuel
> consumption),
> but not much more, where they're dead weight. It sounds like that
> is
> NetGain's target user, like a UPS truck with very consistant use.
> But if
> you are sometimes driving 650 miles a day, and carrying an extra
> 800 lbs,
> are you really going to be saving anything in the long run?
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:54 PM
> Subject: RE: Motor needed
>
>
> > NetGain has developed an interface module to plug into the
> computer. So
> > we are not looking to power the truck by electric only. We are
> looking
> > to assist. To take city MPG from say 15 to 19 MPG.
> >
> > I would love to have full electric BUT if we want to sell a
> system it
> > needs to be affordable. From what I see a 13 inch motor is 2X
> the cost of
> > an 8. I was also planning on about 600 lbs of batteries due to
> cost and
> > space. I want to keep the full bed open and have plenty of
> hauling
> > capacity. So the ICE will always run and the electric will run
> as much as
> > possible while the ICE supplies the extra torque. The hope is
> the ICE
> > will just idle most of the time.
> >
> > So I am looking at an incremental MPG improvement not full
> electric drive.
> > The main reason is I could not find an electric motor set up
> that would
> > work without EXTENSIVE modifications to the truck like taking
> out the
> > motor. Again cost is a factor.
> >
> > That is why I have the 8" motor limitation as I do not want to
> go to the
> > trouble and expense of moving both the gas tank and muffler.
> While EV's
> > have many advantages I do use my truck frequently to drive 650
> miles a day
> > or haul mulch and building supplies. A pure electric will not
> meet the
> > needs. And if we are sucessful even a 25% improvement on some
> 10,000,000
> > (the number of drive by wire trucks on the road) would be like
> 2,500,000
> > EV's on the road. Not perfect but a good step forward.
> >
> >
> >
> > via Treo
> > David Hrivnak
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subj: RE: Motor needed
> > Date: Thu May 17, 2007 12:34 pm
> > Size: 2K
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >
> > I have been thinking about this type of setup with a current truck.
> > There are some things you need to think about:
> >
> > 1. If you are putting the motor between the transmission and the
> > carrier bearing you would be running the motor in direct drive.
> A full
> > size truck with the engine and transmission in it will be around
> 4,000> pounds. Then add about 1500 pounds for batteries (26
> batteries - 156
> > volt, 55 pounds each) and that is HUGE. Even 12 12V batteries
> (144V) is
> > 660 pounds. That I think is too much for even a 13" motor.
> >
> > 2. If you are thinking a Electric Assist, you will need some
> type of
> > control matrix to offer electric push during some of the
> acceleration> but not all. Without it the acceleration would be
> jerky. There is a
> > guy who converted a Neon to electric assist with a 2 cyl diesel
> and was
> > getting around 60 mpg. I think he has a website called 21
> ponies. He
> > did the electric motor with his finger on the stick shift. I
> don't know
> > how well that worked.
> >
> > I think you would want the largest motor possible. Anything smaller
> > would be very difficult to get the torque needed without ruining the
> > motor prematurely.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of David Hrivnak
> > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:22
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Motor needed
> >
> >
> > I am trying to locate an electric motor for an electric conversion
> > project and so far I have not had any luck. I need something
> that is
> > double shafted with the shaft that is at least 1.125" and
> ideally 1.170"
> > AND the motor is less than 8" in diameter.
> >
> > I know ADC and Netgain produce double shafted motors between 6.7
> and 8"
> > but the comm end is only .875" and with the torque that will go
> through> the shaft it will twist it right in half.
> >
> > The TransWarp 9 has the necessary shaft but I do not have the
> clearance> for such a large diameter motor. I have contacted 5
> motor shops with no
> > luck so far.
> >
> > I am working on a hybrid truck idea where the motor will go
> between the
> > transmission and the differential. It will need to handle
> nearly 1000
> > ft-lb of torque as the ICE motor will be left in and used. But
> we are
> > hoping the electric will be able to assist and improve gas mileage.
> > While not a true EV if we can improve gas mileage on the more than
> > 9,000,000 late model trucks and SUV's it will go a long way for
> cleaner> air and introduce electric concepts to thousands and if a
> success> millions.
> >
> > If any of you have leads on a motor manufacturer or motor shop
> whom may
> > be willing to build a prototype motor please let me know.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> >
> > David J. Hrivnak
> >
> > www.hrivnak.com
> >
> > Personal Account WWJD?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Jack> What that chart shows:
Jack> 1C the loss is 5% at 25C after 1000 cycles
Jack> 2C the loss is 10% at 45C
Jack> 2C the loss is 20% at 60C
Sorry to step in with a rather idiotic newbie question, but what does C
mean? I've been trying to suss it out of context for a couple days. Now
this table has me really confused. It seems to clearly mean "Celsius" in
the second use on each line, but I can't come up with any words in my
limited EVocabulary that make sense as the replacement for the first C... I
see no mention of any other C besides Celsius in the referenced A123Systems
data sheet.
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got an Airpax single pole breaker ( 250 amps, 160VDC, long delay trip)
breaker. Does anyone know if there is a preferred polarity? ( which
connection should be positive and which negative).
The connections are labeled " line" and "load" but that sounds it refers to
AC and not DC.
Thanks
Phil Marino
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Jim, you forgot old timey EV guy's motor!!! :^0
For those who don't know, Jim heard that I was restoring this 1911
Hupp-Yeats Electric from a bare bones rolling chassis. Well, the motor, a
1910 Westinghouse 48v, 4-pole series-wound Model V33F ("V" for "vehicle"),
12"diam heavy monster was discovered to be missing not only brushes, but the
entire brush assembly.
NO biggee, right?
Wrong...no records are available for these early Westinghouse DC EV motors
and no replacement brush housing plans are known to exist. Not only that,
but there's only ONE (1) other V33F motor that I've been able to find.
Fortunately, thanks to the good folks at the Reynolds-Alberta museum in
Canada, I have a great deal of photographs of their pristine 1912 Hupp-Yeats
"DeLuxe", including photos of the motor's brush assembly.
So, Jim's task is to cobble together a brush assembly based on these
photographs and brush sizes available 95years later. This is the oldest
motor he's had a chance to work on and he's pretty excited about it even
though it's not meant for the drag strip...
UPDATE on the 1911 Hupp-Yeats EV: Finally beyond the rust stage of the
project now, with nearly every piece of the chassis and much of the
differential housing disassembled and cleaned. As of tomorrow the frame
will be finish painted as will a number of other parts. The chassis will
again come back to its berth at "Shop People" in Portland for the slow
process of reassembly and new part fabrication. I'll have new pics posted
soon at the webpages: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1018
And just to show how important it can be to disassemble everything when
working on a relic of uncertain vintage, glass beading the frame and
suspension springs have revealed a number of clues:
* S/N "598" stamped on both rear axle hubs (suspected car ID#)
* "H-P 1911 Chrome Vanadium" stamped on rear 3/4 elliptic springs
* "Mar 1911" stamped on another pair of springs
* "374" stamped on the FRONT member of the frame (also possible car
ID#---discovered this # today prior to painting...)
These and other findings (e.g. the massive differential housing) have dated
this vehicle as a 1911 and the oldest known Hupp-Yeats to exist.
With the "374" number just discovered on the frame, the "598" number is now
in question as the car's ID...more than ever I need to correlate similar
stampings on the Canadian DeLuxe with their ID plate#...
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:50 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: Yeah where is my motor!
Hey all
I figuered I'd just send a blanket email to the list
and get EVeryone an update on their stuff. Kinda
checks to see if they read my stuff also 8^P
Lets see where to start...
Bill, Killacycles stuff will go out Monday, sorry best
I can do. I got some 30 mil Nomex that's Viagra stiff
and thick so I'm hoping it'll give trojon protection
8^o to the springs. BTW I'm hoping you were wanting
complete brushriggings and leads, cause that's what
you getting.
Chip, the shaft got keyed today and I'll get the motor
out to you next week where you should still have time
to put you fingerprints all over it, LMAO.
This year Wayland got me a nice 6.7" GE motor I'm
modding for Chip for the Power of DC. Hopefully all
you east ended guys will throw a couple bucks at it
and help Chip for all he does and maybe even win a
nice little motor to play with 8^)
Lawless, waiting on Keith for the shaft as well as
that additional info we talked about (kinda hand and
hand). I'll be sending the first two housing
assemblys to paint here soon and will shoot you some
pics soon. BTW grab some pics of that motor roast you
did as I'd love to get em up at the hall of flames 8^)
those and about 80 other pics I need to post 8^(
Willmon, I've been working with George Hamstra at
Netgain and have decided to go with the standard Warp9
brush set. The Transwarp9 and Warp9 have / had
different brushes and ring assemblys. They both ran
great and same speed but being Mike is gonna be racing
these as a pair I feel it'd be better to have matching
brush rigging so there can't be a weaker one.
Just to be clear I'm not even saying ones better than
the other, I just want matching, sorry if I'm a pain
in the butt George 8^o FWIW the new Transwarp aspect
is really awesome! Anyway Mike that's the poop, I do
have to clear my plate a bit but it won't take long to
put the bling you're looking for into these.
Eduardo, ADC told me the shafts where in stock, I
ordered 3 so I could shelf a couple, 0 showed up with
the order and the guys been on vacation all week so I
don't yet know if he forgot them or they weren't
"actually" in stock when they went to pull the order.
Makes me look like an idiot (really not that hard to
do) but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it
until I get them. Your "Damon" twin is all but done
and sits under a towel waiting, no more than a couple
hours from being finished.
Let's see who am I forgetting...
Oh yeah, Wayland. Well it's good to hear you got the
Zombie back up and terrorizing the streets of Portland
and no sweat adding a little extra work for me as you
pound the motor with just 15 springs. You know it is
almost an issue with you to break stuff isn't it!
Anyway it sound's like you're done playing around at
Vinneys garage so you better pull that motor this
weekend or well, I won't like you much anymore if you
don't so there!
BTW you sound so nice on the radio! Cheryl must have
made you take your medicine or something! I kept
saying to myself "why couldn't that guy have been the
one I drove to Joliet with?" LMAO! I just got around
to listening to it this morning and it was really
great. Thanks as always for the love. Actually you
were just hosing the love there almost to the point
the guy should have said "hey this is about you
numbnut"! Kudos to you John! Truly jazzed for you
and all the cool stuff you've got on your plate.
Damon, back away from my Siamese6, yeah I saw you
eyeballing it. It's actually in pieces so HA! The
arms a little out of balance so I'm gonna address that
and I'm kinda toying with using it myself. Anyway I
just wanted to say that I saw your post coveting my
motor, tisk, tisk. BTW hows that holely cheese motor
I butchered for you coming? 8^o
Anyway I just thought I'd kill a bunch of birds with
one email. Kinda throw something at the list and air
my underwear out on the bummers of being a small shop.
I'll keep you all posted as things go out and happy
racing!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Damon, back away from my Siamese6, yeah I saw you
eyeballing it. It's actually in pieces so HA! The
arms a little out of balance so I'm gonna address that
and I'm kinda toying with using it myself. Anyway I
just wanted to say that I saw your post coveting my
motor, tisk, tisk. BTW hows that holely cheese motor
I butchered for you coming? 8^o
Hey Jim
The motors great. Mike took it to school to show it off one day, but other
then that it has been sitting on my garage floor. I have spun it up on 12
volts a few times just for the sheer enjoyment:-) Right now the truck is
sitting over at my buddies shop. We pulled the bed and had the bottom and
top sandblasted to take care of all the rust. (If anyone in the PDX area
needs something big sandblasted, I know just the place. The guy only
charged me $150 for the whole inside of the bed and everything underneath,
the outside was fine.) Now the bed is all primered back up. Mike and I were
out wire brushing the frame today getting ready to do the POR 15 thing.
Because we still have a few more of the electrics to collect, it looks like
we are going to take care of the all the frame and body work first, then
make it nice and pretty so Mike can drive it around as a gasser for a while.
Once I have all the EV parts in hand, we will strip out the smelly stuff,
and do the transplant. Like most on this list my EV budget is always in
danger, so it may take a good chunk of the summer before I'm able to get
everything together. If the EV Gods smile favorably on me I might pull it
all together before the Wayland Invitational :-)
Keep pressing those shafts ...
damon
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey David
As you know we got some time into this and it'd be a
bummer to not see it through. First off let me clear
my plate here and get the racers up and running and
let me chew on this a bit. Being the slip yoke is
actually 1.170 and not 1.125 it screws up my plan to
use a standard inch sized bearing which is available
in the OD I need. Secondly something has to be done
to allow an extra probably in reality .040 (the bore
hole is a few thou over like 1.129 or there about.
The issue is two fold, with this long a shaft you can
warp it and or the comm's are pressed out trying to
get it in, neither good. Like I said I've continued
to ponder what it's gonna take to complete it (EVen
without ya ;P
It's not like any of this "can't" be done, it's more
of a "at what cost" so you don't vomit when you see
the invoice, LMAO. That and or feeling like I tripped
and fell on that shaft, if you know what I mean 8^o
In huge ways it's tougher to modify a motor than if it
were built that way to begin with being there are
those pre-existing parameters that must be dealt with.
I'll give you a write after I get some guys up and
discuss what options there are to get you up. I am
also sorry to hear the other options didn't pan out.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim would love to work with you. With your
> reputation I have confidence
> you will do it right.
>
> I see two options, 1) we go with a 1.125 shaft and I
> just find a way to
> couple on my end. We have some smart people and I
> think I can make a go
> of it. We have a Chemical plant with more than
> 10,000 motors just down
> the street and the Bristol race track just up the
> street.
>
> I could make up a shaft to your specifications
> splined at 1.170. For me
> this would be ideal. Just tell me now to make the
> shafts and I will get
> a few quotes here. I was going to join two
> transmission output shafts
> for about $300 and they would just need to grind
> down the proper bearing
> surfaces. The juncture where they are joined should
> be in the armature
> where strength is not quite as important.
>
> I have learned I will have to be patient. So far my
> other ideas have
> not panned out well but I HAVE NOT GIVEN-UP
>
> Thanks Jim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Motor needed
>
> Hey David, all
>
> First off I apologize for not having gotten back to
> you privately when you emailed me, in fact there are
> probably two dozen emails that I'd like to find time
> for.
>
> The basic jist on David's project is he needs a
> slender motor with dual big shafts. The Siamese7
> that
> Damon has talked about was started for David in
> fact.
> The issue is the 1 1/8" output shafts are in fact
> like
> .050 over that and the armature holes are just a tad
> to small to even attempt to press it. Being "both
> ends
> are bigger than the armature hole there is no way to
> get it in without boring the armatures which would
> be
> a nightmare trying to bore out.
>
> Anyway I've had much time to ponder this project and
> I
> really do lean toward a dual motor setup here as it
> would have 16 brushes compared to a single 9's eight
> and I really feel that'd help carry the current
> better. You'd also have the option of being able to
> wire them for series or parallel running in maybe
> one
> guy lives in SF and another in flatland, or maybe a
> city vs. highway setup. Because this motor / motors
> will be in-line with the driveine it's worst enemy
> will be the lack of RPM's as they will only be
> approaching good RPM's at upper speeds, again my
> reasoning for feeling a dual comm'ed setup would
> almost be needed.
>
> Here's the deal, the shell and guts sit right where
> they where when we talked last as I've been debating
> whether to do a Siamese7 or split them back up and
> just build two small but nice motors to sell.
>
> The problem for me is I'm not a shaft maker and for
> the racers I wouldn't want to use anyone but
> Dutchman's but on lets say these littler 6 and 7
> inch
> motors I need to find something a little more
> semi-production priced. Anyway I'll toss the ball
> back in your court and maybe to the list whether
> anyone would be willing to work up a shaft. I could
> supply an OEM shaft and drawing. Face it some want
> the premium and then there are the poor bastards
> like
> us who want it as cheap as possible 8^o Having that
> option would be a good thing where I could in fact
> do
> more of these.
> If there is anyone who'd like to take a crack at
> making me a shaft give me a write off list.
>
> Problem number two for this project is I got motors
> in
> for 4 of the top racers on my plate right now and
> well
> let's just say I'm very pressured for deadlines at
> the
> moment. I feel a little like "what about Bob" I'm
> baby stepping, I'm doing the work, I'm not a
> slacker,
> LMAO. In fact I did a Portland run today and picked
> just 1 up and said thank God, hehe.
>
> Anyway I wanted to get something in here for you and
> I
> know not really what you wanted to hear 8^(
> FWIW an 8" would give enough hole size but a single
> 8
> won't do the job and getting two 8's gets pricey.
> again sorry for the late write back.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Myles
I knew I should have included you, LMAO. Yours is a
unique project and one I get to have a little more
time with compared to the guys needing there stuff
now, kind of thing. Being I have to completely make a
new mount plate and decide the best holder option to
use. With that said being this is neither racer, nor,
daily, but in fact a piece of history much love and
pride will go into this motor. I just need to get
some alone time into it which I haven't had here
lately. In fact I believe this will be one of my
prouder builds being able to work on something that
only two maybe EVen exist (and one's in a museum)
Actually I got Waggoners motor and Mike Chancey hey
whenever you get to it as well as one for Marko.
There's also a Bradley GTE motor although it got hurt
really bad when the metal banding unsoldered and
turned it into a DC wire welder 8^o
Anyway didn't forget about you more of a different
class or next wave of project kinda thing, that and
I'm pretty tired and was being lazy
Cya
Jim
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim, you forgot old timey EV guy's motor!!! :^0
>
> For those who don't know, Jim heard that I was
> restoring this 1911
> Hupp-Yeats Electric from a bare bones rolling
> chassis. Well, the motor, a
> 1910 Westinghouse 48v, 4-pole series-wound Model
> V33F ("V" for "vehicle"),
> 12"diam heavy monster was discovered to be missing
> not only brushes, but the
> entire brush assembly.
> NO biggee, right?
> Wrong...no records are available for these early
> Westinghouse DC EV motors
> and no replacement brush housing plans are known to
> exist. Not only that,
> but there's only ONE (1) other V33F motor that I've
> been able to find.
> Fortunately, thanks to the good folks at the
> Reynolds-Alberta museum in
> Canada, I have a great deal of photographs of their
> pristine 1912 Hupp-Yeats
> "DeLuxe", including photos of the motor's brush
> assembly.
>
> So, Jim's task is to cobble together a brush
> assembly based on these
> photographs and brush sizes available 95years later.
> This is the oldest
> motor he's had a chance to work on and he's pretty
> excited about it even
> though it's not meant for the drag strip...
>
>
> UPDATE on the 1911 Hupp-Yeats EV: Finally beyond the
> rust stage of the
> project now, with nearly every piece of the chassis
> and much of the
> differential housing disassembled and cleaned. As
> of tomorrow the frame
> will be finish painted as will a number of other
> parts. The chassis will
> again come back to its berth at "Shop People" in
> Portland for the slow
> process of reassembly and new part fabrication.
> I'll have new pics posted
> soon at the webpages:
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1018
> And just to show how important it can be to
> disassemble everything when
> working on a relic of uncertain vintage, glass
> beading the frame and
> suspension springs have revealed a number of clues:
> * S/N "598" stamped on both rear axle hubs
> (suspected car ID#)
> * "H-P 1911 Chrome Vanadium" stamped on rear 3/4
> elliptic springs
> * "Mar 1911" stamped on another pair of springs
> * "374" stamped on the FRONT member of the frame
> (also possible car
> ID#---discovered this # today prior to painting...)
>
> These and other findings (e.g. the massive
> differential housing) have dated
> this vehicle as a 1911 and the oldest known
> Hupp-Yeats to exist.
> With the "374" number just discovered on the frame,
> the "598" number is now
> in question as the car's ID...more than ever I need
> to correlate similar
> stampings on the Canadian DeLuxe with their ID
> plate#...
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:50 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: Yeah where is my motor!
>
> Hey all
>
> I figuered I'd just send a blanket email to the list
> and get EVeryone an update on their stuff. Kinda
> checks to see if they read my stuff also 8^P
>
> Lets see where to start...
>
> Bill, Killacycles stuff will go out Monday, sorry
> best
> I can do. I got some 30 mil Nomex that's Viagra
> stiff
> and thick so I'm hoping it'll give trojon protection
> 8^o to the springs. BTW I'm hoping you were wanting
> complete brushriggings and leads, cause that's what
> you getting.
>
> Chip, the shaft got keyed today and I'll get the
> motor
> out to you next week where you should still have
> time
> to put you fingerprints all over it, LMAO.
> This year Wayland got me a nice 6.7" GE motor I'm
> modding for Chip for the Power of DC. Hopefully all
> you east ended guys will throw a couple bucks at it
> and help Chip for all he does and maybe even win a
> nice little motor to play with 8^)
>
> Lawless, waiting on Keith for the shaft as well as
> that additional info we talked about (kinda hand and
> hand). I'll be sending the first two housing
> assemblys to paint here soon and will shoot you some
> pics soon. BTW grab some pics of that motor roast
> you
> did as I'd love to get em up at the hall of flames
> 8^)
> those and about 80 other pics I need to post 8^(
>
> Willmon, I've been working with George Hamstra at
> Netgain and have decided to go with the standard
> Warp9
> brush set. The Transwarp9 and Warp9 have / had
> different brushes and ring assemblys. They both ran
> great and same speed but being Mike is gonna be
> racing
> these as a pair I feel it'd be better to have
> matching
> brush rigging so there can't be a weaker one.
> Just to be clear I'm not even saying ones better
> than
> the other, I just want matching, sorry if I'm a pain
> in the butt George 8^o FWIW the new Transwarp
> aspect
> is really awesome! Anyway Mike that's the poop, I
> do
> have to clear my plate a bit but it won't take long
> to
> put the bling you're looking for into these.
>
> Eduardo, ADC told me the shafts where in stock, I
> ordered 3 so I could shelf a couple, 0 showed up
> with
> the order and the guys been on vacation all week so
> I
> don't yet know if he forgot them or they weren't
> "actually" in stock when they went to pull the
> order.
> Makes me look like an idiot (really not that hard to
> do) but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it
> until I get them. Your "Damon" twin is all but done
> and sits under a towel waiting, no more than a
> couple
> hours from being finished.
>
> Let's see who am I forgetting...
> Oh yeah, Wayland. Well it's good to hear you got
> the
> Zombie back up and terrorizing the streets of
> Portland
> and no sweat adding a little extra work for me as
> you
> pound the motor with just 15 springs. You know it
> is
> almost an issue with you to break stuff isn't it!
> Anyway it sound's like you're done playing around at
> Vinneys garage so you better pull that motor this
> weekend or well, I won't like you much anymore if
> you
> don't so there!
>
> BTW you sound so nice on the radio! Cheryl must
> have
> made you take your medicine or something! I kept
> saying to myself "why couldn't that guy have been
> the
> one I drove to Joliet with?" LMAO! I just got
> around
> to listening to it this morning and it was really
> great. Thanks as always for the love. Actually you
> were just hosing the love there almost to the point
> the guy should have said "hey this is about you
> numbnut"! Kudos to you John! Truly jazzed for you
> and all the cool stuff you've got on your plate.
>
> Damon, back away from my Siamese6, yeah I saw you
> eyeballing it. It's actually in pieces so HA! The
> arms a little out of balance so I'm gonna address
> that
> and I'm kinda toying with using it myself. Anyway I
> just wanted to say that I saw your post coveting my
> motor, tisk, tisk. BTW hows that holely cheese
> motor
> I butchered for you coming? 8^o
>
> Anyway I just thought I'd kill a bunch of birds with
> one email. Kinda throw something at the list and air
> my underwear out on the bummers of being a small
> shop.
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> Jim Husted wrote:
>
> I figuered I'd just send a blanket email to the list
> and get EVeryone an update on their stuff. Kinda
> checks to see if they read my stuff also 8^P
Jim, read your stuff?? I'm having withdrawls. But I understand you gotta work
to make money too. Although with all the fun
you're having with racing motors and vintage electric restoration projects I
figure you must have a bunch of elves that keep your
day business running.
> ...BTW grab some pics of that motor roast you
> did as I'd love to get em up at the hall of flames 8^)
> those and about 80 other pics I need to post 8^(
Sounds like a job for the elves ;-P
> Willmon, I've been working with George Hamstra at
> Netgain and have decided to go with the standard Warp9
> brush set.
Hey, father knows best, eh? With all the other motors in the shop hopefully
you're not getting them used to being talked to too
much. You know, none of that touchy feely stuff. Don't tease them about their
shafts either. I don't need the WarP9 getting
spline envy!! I'd hate nothing more than to have to talk them through all the
hard times ahead, he he. Make 'em tough, and kick
'em out :-O
> ...I just want matching, sorry if I'm a pain
> in the butt George 8^o FWIW the new Transwarp aspect
> is really awesome!
If either you or George have any bumper stickers you want me to show off on the
car, send them on!!
> ...Anyway Mike that's the poop, I do
> have to clear my plate a bit but it won't take long to
> put the bling you're looking for into these.
No pressure Jim. I just ordered the 9" rear-end yesterday. You're not going to
let the Dutchman beat you are ya }:->
>
> Let's see who am I forgetting...
> Oh yeah, Wayland. Well it's good to hear you got the
> Zombie back up and terrorizing the streets of Portland
> and no sweat adding a little extra work for me as you
> pound the motor with just 15 springs. You know it is
> almost an issue with you to break stuff isn't it!
...and if you happen to be by Dutchmans', don't break my axle before I get a
chance to play with it. I bet you've already been by
Jim's shop slobbering all over the TransWarP9 :-O Jim, if he asks you if you'd
let him test out the motors, Just Say No. he he.
Oh yeah, John, what'er you doing for an E- brake???
> Anyway I just thought I'd kill a bunch of birds with
> one email. Kinda throw something at the list and air
> my underwear out on the bummers of being a small shop.
>
You like it or you wouldn't do it. Do you need some more coffee??
Did you eat all those Kenya AA+ Special Dark beans?
Kaladi's is featuring Ethiopian Yirgacheffe this month.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
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