EV Digest 6789
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Yeah where is my motor!
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Electric Vehicle Expo 2007 - Saturday May 26 in Ottawa, Canada
by Juergen Weichert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: [sfeva] Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Vehicle efficiency, wh/mile
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: belly pan plastic
by "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Solectra/Azure Dynamics DMOC445 AC controller
by "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Motor needed
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery chart for a hand-out...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric Vehicle Expo 2007 - Saturday May 26 in Ottawa, Canada
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Mystery Motor Help
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Power Stering and A/C
by "Guy Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: direct drive or transmission?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Power Stering and A/C
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Power Stering and A/C
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Mystery Motor Help
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) SepEx Regen Chopper - Help!
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim, that sounds like a pretty neat project to have the pleasure of working
on :-)
Myles wrote:
> > This is the oldest
> > motor he's had a chance to work on and he's pretty
> > excited about it even
> > though it's not meant for the drag strip...
> >
Sounds like its been a long time since you seen one of those motors, eh? Wasn't
that back before the first war? Just kidding. I
notice Myles' EV Album page says he's hoping for a little more speed than
stock. What are we talking advance brush rigging,
lighten the armature, add dilithium crystals....seriously though, this will no
doubt be one to remember.
Myles,
So how did you come by acquiring this jewel?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please join us for our annual "Electric Vehicle Expo 2007" next
Saturday, May 26 in Ottawa, Canada.
Details at http://www.evco.ca/EV_Expo/
Poster available for download at
http://www.evco.ca/EV_Expo/2007/poster%202007%20final.pdf
Thanks
Juergen
Juergen Weichert
President, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa
www.evco.ca
613-746-7685
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Jorg, if you sign up & modify the car you will be promptly tossed in
jail or sued by the manufacturer for damaging their vehicle. Turns out they
are for lease only. You are not the only person that is interested in
converting & I don't think Honda is interested in anyone getting a bargain
EV. Just by discussing what you will do will allow Honda or any other
manufacturer to make plans we might not like. Lets say making the system
talk only to their fuel cell brain for instance. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [sfeva] Honda Hydrogen Fuel Cell BOYCOTT?
> Lawrence -
>
> 1) Hydrogen-powered vehicles are better for national security than gas
> vehicles are, even if the hydrogen comes from nat gas. Why boycott a step
> in the right direction?
>
> 2) You and I and everyone on this list know that the biggest cost of
> electric propulsion comes not in the cost of the electricity, but in the
> cost of the depreciation of the batteries. So batteries, it turns out,
are
> also painfully inefficient when you factor in their periodic replacement
> cost.
>
> 3) Hydrogen-powered vehicles are much easier to convert to electric than
gas
> vehicles are. If anything, people here are more likely to buy extra
> hydrogen cars than boycott them. Seriously, can you imagine a better
> candidate for BEV conversion than a Honda FCV?
>
> 25K cost of HCV + 3K lead-acid batteries = 28K for a decent modern
electric
> car. Where do I sign?
>
> On 5/12/07, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Honda has plans to develop and sell a fuel cell car by 2010. It is the
> > accepted fact now that hydrogen is a poor energy carrier. All commercial
> > sources of hydrogen will come from fossil fuel. (Hydrogen from water
using
> > electricity is painfully inefficient but possible) That means zero
> > pollution
> > at the vehicle & more pollution at the source compared to battery
electric
> > vehicles. Should there be active protests against the fuel cell &
> > hydrogen.
> > I suspect the price of hydrogen will be either subsidised to keep it on
> > par
> > with other dino fuels or the real price will be charged. If it is
> > subsidised the real price will come later. If it is not there will be no
> > acceptance of the product. If Honda makes good on it's promise of a 25k
> > fuel
> > cell car what will we do. Buy it or protest? Lawrence Rhodes. BTW Why
> > not an energy efficiency "race". The car to finish the "race" using the
> > least amount of energy wins.............
> >
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah but it is doing a lot of useful work. As it powers the brakes, the
steering, the air conditioning and the 12V electronics. Yes I know there are
ways around each of those but that will all add cost, complexity and time.
Then in Kingsport we never have stop and go traffic. Yes we stop for stop
signs and red lights but it is rare, very rare that I would wait for more than
one cycle. I have an onboard computer and if I am doing 30 and take my foot
off the gas 40-50 MPG is very common.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Re: Motor needed
Date: Thu May 17, 2007 11:21 pm
Size: 8K
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Motor needed
>Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 19:48:00 -0400
>
>thank you for the correction you are right. Hopefully the ICE will idle
>most of the time and the electric will provide the extra power. If the
>electric is tapped out then the ICE will provide even more. So it is not
>necessary for the electric to be sized to provide all the power to
>accelerate.
You really don't want the ICE to idle most of the time. An ICE engine is
more efficient ( or at least, less inefficient) at higher power outputs and
has very poor efficiency at low power outputs. In fact, it has zero
efficiency when idling, since it is using fuel and supplying no useful work.
When you don't need the ICE to supply power, turning it off is the best
thing to do.
Phil
>
>
>via Treo
>David Hrivnak
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subj: Re: Motor needed
>Date: Thu May 17, 2007 4:01 pm
>Size: 6K
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
>I think the idea is to use the cheap efficient electricity to power
>accelerations where ICE vehicles waste a fair amount. Stop and go city
>driving is hard on an ICE that way. And that was what David stated **To
>take city MPG from say 15 to 19 MPG.
>**. I'll dissagree with his statement though that the electrics should run
>most of the time and the ICE would kick in extra torque. I think thats
>backwards. The electrics should provide the short bursts of high torque to
>get a load moving and the ICE would run at an average load tuned to its
>peak efficiency. This could feasably increase the city mileage from 15 mpg
>to 19 mpg and I think this is the intent of the Netgain EMIS system.
>
>Mike,
>Anchorage, Ak.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:29 am
>Subject: Re: Motor needed
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> > So basically, you're starting the day with a full charge in 600
> > lbs of
> > batteries, which equates to how many gallons of gas? Less than 1
> > gallon I
> > believe. If you drive beyond the point that you've used up that
> > energy
> > (assuning you've saved that many gallons, except you're heavier
> > now, so you
> > might not actually save one whole gallon), you're dragging around
> > around 800
> > extra pounds. So beyond that point, it sounds like your mileage
> > will be
> > significantly worse. How far do you go before the extra weight
> > costs you
> > another gallon?
> >
> > I think the idea has promise if you know the daily usage is known
> > to be
> > enough to use the energy in the batteries (replacing some fuel
> > consumption),
> > but not much more, where they're dead weight. It sounds like that
> > is
> > NetGain's target user, like a UPS truck with very consistant use.
> > But if
> > you are sometimes driving 650 miles a day, and carrying an extra
> > 800 lbs,
> > are you really going to be saving anything in the long run?
> >
> > Marty
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:54 PM
> > Subject: RE: Motor needed
> >
> >
> > > NetGain has developed an interface module to plug into the
> > computer. So
> > > we are not looking to power the truck by electric only. We are
> > looking
> > > to assist. To take city MPG from say 15 to 19 MPG.
> > >
> > > I would love to have full electric BUT if we want to sell a
> > system it
> > > needs to be affordable. From what I see a 13 inch motor is 2X
> > the cost of
> > > an 8. I was also planning on about 600 lbs of batteries due to
> > cost and
> > > space. I want to keep the full bed open and have plenty of
> > hauling
> > > capacity. So the ICE will always run and the electric will run
> > as much as
> > > possible while the ICE supplies the extra torque. The hope is
> > the ICE
> > > will just idle most of the time.
> > >
> > > So I am looking at an incremental MPG improvement not full
> > electric drive.
> > > The main reason is I could not find an electric motor set up
> > that would
> > > work without EXTENSIVE modifications to the truck like taking
> > out the
> > > motor. Again cost is a factor.
> > >
> > > That is why I have the 8" motor limitation as I do not want to
> > go to the
> > > trouble and expense of moving both the gas tank and muffler.
> > While EV's
> > > have many advantages I do use my truck frequently to drive 650
> > miles a day
> > > or haul mulch and building supplies. A pure electric will not
> > meet the
> > > needs. And if we are sucessful even a 25% improvement on some
> > 10,000,000
> > > (the number of drive by wire trucks on the road) would be like
> > 2,500,000
> > > EV's on the road. Not perfect but a good step forward.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > via Treo
> > > David Hrivnak
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Subj: RE: Motor needed
> > > Date: Thu May 17, 2007 12:34 pm
> > > Size: 2K
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > >
> > > I have been thinking about this type of setup with a current truck.
> > > There are some things you need to think about:
> > >
> > > 1. If you are putting the motor between the transmission and the
> > > carrier bearing you would be running the motor in direct drive.
> > A full
> > > size truck with the engine and transmission in it will be around
> > 4,000> pounds. Then add about 1500 pounds for batteries (26
> > batteries - 156
> > > volt, 55 pounds each) and that is HUGE. Even 12 12V batteries
> > (144V) is
> > > 660 pounds. That I think is too much for even a 13" motor.
> > >
> > > 2. If you are thinking a Electric Assist, you will need some
> > type of
> > > control matrix to offer electric push during some of the
> > acceleration> but not all. Without it the acceleration would be
> > jerky. There is a
> > > guy who converted a Neon to electric assist with a 2 cyl diesel
> > and was
> > > getting around 60 mpg. I think he has a website called 21
> > ponies. He
> > > did the electric motor with his finger on the stick shift. I
> > don't know
> > > how well that worked.
> > >
> > > I think you would want the largest motor possible. Anything smaller
> > > would be very difficult to get the torque needed without ruining the
> > > motor prematurely.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > > Behalf Of David Hrivnak
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:22
> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > Subject: Motor needed
> > >
> > >
> > > I am trying to locate an electric motor for an electric conversion
> > > project and so far I have not had any luck. I need something
> > that is
> > > double shafted with the shaft that is at least 1.125" and
> > ideally 1.170"
> > > AND the motor is less than 8" in diameter.
> > >
> > > I know ADC and Netgain produce double shafted motors between 6.7
> > and 8"
> > > but the comm end is only .875" and with the torque that will go
> > through> the shaft it will twist it right in half.
> > >
> > > The TransWarp 9 has the necessary shaft but I do not have the
> > clearance> for such a large diameter motor. I have contacted 5
> > motor shops with no
> > > luck so far.
> > >
> > > I am working on a hybrid truck idea where the motor will go
> > between the
> > > transmission and the differential. It will need to handle
> > nearly 1000
> > > ft-lb of torque as the ICE motor will be left in and used. But
> > we are
> > > hoping the electric will be able to assist and improve gas mileage.
> > > While not a true EV if we can improve gas mileage on the more than
> > > 9,000,000 late model trucks and SUV's it will go a long way for
> > cleaner> air and introduce electric concepts to thousands and if a
> > success> millions.
> > >
> > > If any of you have leads on a motor manufacturer or motor shop
> > whom may
> > > be willing to build a prototype motor please let me know.
> > >
> > > Thank you
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David J. Hrivnak
> > >
> > > www.hrivnak.com
> > >
> > > Personal Account WWJD?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/16/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ah yes, the "available in the near future" line. Sorry, but we've been
hearing that line for decades now. We'll have better/cheaper batteries
available "in the near future". We'll switch to a hydrogen economy "near
future". We'll have more efficient cheaper solar cells "near future".
Let us know when "near future" becomes "available now" then we'll get
excited, until then....<yawn>
I AM talking "now". Look up CIGS and/or cadmium telluride thin film
cells, a bunch of companies are ramping up production as we speak,
first quantities being on market. Just one example : FSLR .
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not start off with 6mm marine ply - much cheaper - then when you've
finished tweaking it and tried it out for a while, you can upgrade to
something more exotic and permanent... Just use the ply as a pattern and
trace around it to cut the finished article. MW
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Al
Sent: 16 May 2007 02:55
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: belly pan plastic
I would like to work on improving the aerodynamics of my truck. Of course I
want to keep weight to a minimum.
I am considering LDPE, HDPE, and "Lexan" in say 3/32 or 1/8 thickness. Lexan
is probably best at impact resistance. Not sure if low or high density poly
would be a good choice as it costs less than Lexan. Thanks for any comments.
Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben,
I think using the drive battery to keep you warm in the depths of an Alaskan
winter will put a serious dent in your range. Also your battery pack will
need to be kept warm too otherwise, again, the range will drop dramatically
- up to 50% operating at 0 degrees C instead of a nominal 20.
For just cabin heating, try a petrol or diesel fuelled air heater from
Webasto (in US http://www.webasto-us.com/home/en/homepage.html) or Espar
(http://www.espar.com). They come up, used, on Ebay regularly and cheaply -
$200 or so - but are v expensive new. They can be fitted with remote or
timed starting to warm your EV before you drive it. Upside, more range as
the heater is not using the battery. Downside, it's still burning fuel -
though I guess you could use bio-diesel if you're that much of a tree-hugger
(not saying that's a bad thing!).
A car/SUV sized unit (output about 5kW) uses about 0.5 litres of fuel per
hour so with a gallon tank it should last at least a week before needing
filling.
They also come in water heating versions so you can just plumb it in in
place of the ICE and the heater and controls etc won't see any difference.
If you used this set up, you could tap the hot water flow and put some wet
'Under Floor Heating' style warming arrangement under your insulated battery
pack(s) to keep it warm and toasty (well not so much toasty, perhaps).
Good luck. MW
>
> I do live in Alaska so over heating the motor is not as much a problem
> as say Florida or Southern California. Even though the water cooled
> system would be nice for heating the cabin.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree totally. I was talking with my friends and I was thinking it
might be possible to do it without the interface box if you have an
electronic speed sensor. If you use a curtis 400 amp controller with
your 8 inch motor, you could make an interface that gives electric
assist from 0 mph to say 40 mph. I was thinking that set up a circuit
that takes the pulses from the speed sensor to charge a capacitor. To
connect the speed sensor output to the capacitor a diode would have to
be in between so that the charging cap doesn't mess with the speed
sensor output. Then take the output of the capacitor to an OP-AMP
negative input. Put a poteniometer voltage divider on the positive
input to set a threshold. Then on the output of the OP-AMP set up a
transistor to drive a relay to shut off power to the CURTIS or to a
contactor when the threshold is met. Then you can adjust the threshold
to shut off the electric drive assist lets say in between 3rd and 4th
gear.
I think you would also need to use a gear ratio off of the 8" motor to
get the RPM of the 8" into the 2-3000 RPM range. Maybe a 1:1.5 ratio so
the motor would spin at one and a half the driveshaft speed.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 14:54
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Motor needed
NetGain has developed an interface module to plug into the computer. So
we are not looking to power the truck by electric only. We are looking
to assist. To take city MPG from say 15 to 19 MPG.
I would love to have full electric BUT if we want to sell a system it
needs to be affordable. From what I see a 13 inch motor is 2X the cost
of an 8. I was also planning on about 600 lbs of batteries due to cost
and space. I want to keep the full bed open and have plenty of hauling
capacity. So the ICE will always run and the electric will run as much
as possible while the ICE supplies the extra torque. The hope is the
ICE will just idle most of the time.
So I am looking at an incremental MPG improvement not full electric
drive. The main reason is I could not find an electric motor set up
that would work without EXTENSIVE modifications to the truck like taking
out the motor. Again cost is a factor.
That is why I have the 8" motor limitation as I do not want to go to the
trouble and expense of moving both the gas tank and muffler. While EV's
have many advantages I do use my truck frequently to drive 650 miles a
day or haul mulch and building supplies. A pure electric will not meet
the needs. And if we are sucessful even a 25% improvement on some
10,000,000 (the number of drive by wire trucks on the road) would be
like 2,500,000 EV's on the road. Not perfect but a good step forward.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: RE: Motor needed
Date: Thu May 17, 2007 12:34 pm
Size: 2K
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
I have been thinking about this type of setup with a current truck.
There are some things you need to think about:
1. If you are putting the motor between the transmission and the
carrier bearing you would be running the motor in direct drive. A full
size truck with the engine and transmission in it will be around 4,000
pounds. Then add about 1500 pounds for batteries (26 batteries - 156
volt, 55 pounds each) and that is HUGE. Even 12 12V batteries (144V) is
660 pounds. That I think is too much for even a 13" motor.
2. If you are thinking a Electric Assist, you will need some type of
control matrix to offer electric push during some of the acceleration
but not all. Without it the acceleration would be jerky. There is a
guy who converted a Neon to electric assist with a 2 cyl diesel and was
getting around 60 mpg. I think he has a website called 21 ponies. He
did the electric motor with his finger on the stick shift. I don't know
how well that worked.
I think you would want the largest motor possible. Anything smaller
would be very difficult to get the torque needed without ruining the
motor prematurely.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Hrivnak
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:22
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Motor needed
I am trying to locate an electric motor for an electric conversion
project and so far I have not had any luck. I need something that is
double shafted with the shaft that is at least 1.125" and ideally 1.170"
AND the motor is less than 8" in diameter.
I know ADC and Netgain produce double shafted motors between 6.7 and 8"
but the comm end is only .875" and with the torque that will go through
the shaft it will twist it right in half.
The TransWarp 9 has the necessary shaft but I do not have the clearance
for such a large diameter motor. I have contacted 5 motor shops with no
luck so far.
I am working on a hybrid truck idea where the motor will go between the
transmission and the differential. It will need to handle nearly 1000
ft-lb of torque as the ICE motor will be left in and used. But we are
hoping the electric will be able to assist and improve gas mileage.
While not a true EV if we can improve gas mileage on the more than
9,000,000 late model trucks and SUV's it will go a long way for cleaner
air and introduce electric concepts to thousands and if a success
millions.
If any of you have leads on a motor manufacturer or motor shop whom may
be willing to build a prototype motor please let me know.
Thank you
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have gotten so use to this that I didn't even notice the C occurs
twice in the sentence, maybe we should say
1C the loss is 5% at 25 degree C after 1000 cycles
the first C in this context refers to the capacity of the battery, but
watch where they put the number.
on a 100ah battery, 1C is 100A , C20 or C/20 is the amperage rating that
drains the battery in 20 hours or 5amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wouldn't it be nice if some kind soul could point the webcam
at the awards function and let us all see thru yahoo chat (webcam
option) .. for any help/how-to i can chip in
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juergen Weichert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:47 AM
Subject: Electric Vehicle Expo 2007 - Saturday May 26 in Ottawa, Canada
> Please join us for our annual "Electric Vehicle Expo 2007" next
> Saturday, May 26 in Ottawa, Canada.
>
> Details at http://www.evco.ca/EV_Expo/
>
> Poster available for download at
> http://www.evco.ca/EV_Expo/2007/poster%202007%20final.pdf
>
> Thanks
> Juergen
>
>
> Juergen Weichert
> President, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa
> www.evco.ca
> 613-746-7685
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007
4:46 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Not to pick bones, but that would be a single speed transmission.
Peter has brought this 'correction' up many times, and though I usually
find myself in agreement on most things with him, I have to disagree
this time.
Direct drive implies that you are /direct/ly driving the wheel with the
motor.
Perhaps in a purely engineering environment where everything is literal,
but not in the normal context of the automotive world (the world that
EVs are in) where direct drive 'means' that the motor(s) 'directly
drives' the rear end without the aid of a multispeed transmission or the
inclusion of a clutch or torque converter. The 'transmission' has always
meant the box between the drive motor and the rear end that provides
multiple gear ratios. Front drive combines the differential and the
multispeed transmission into one unit, hence the term 'transaxle'. On a
rear drive affair, remove the transmission between the motor and the
rear end, and you have direct drive right into the rear end.
Example (1)
When talking with the engineers from GM back in '96 about 'Sunnyside
Up', the land speed Impact (forerunner to the EV1), they too, referred
to the car as direct drive, since it had no selectable gear ratios. I
know, because I asked them how they got the thing up to 180+ mph when I
queried, "Did you install a 2 or 3 speed transaxle?" Their answer? "No,
it's still direct drive...we did change the reduction ratio to something
quite a bit taller though." They actually used the term 'direct-drive'.
The transaxle of the EV1 is a gear reduction system, not a transmission.
I will admit, that in EV1 literature they referred to the reduction
system as a single speed transmission, but even that was incorrect, as
it was technically a 'single speed transaxle' not a transmission. In a
rear wheel drive car though, no one would ever call the rear end a
'single speed transmission'...they call it a rear end, or 'final drive
ratio'.
Example (2)
I work in the forklift industry, where nearly every electric drive
system is called 'direct drive'. The 'drive unit' is never called a
'transmission', it's always called the 'drive unit', and in pretty much
all the tech info they refer to the electric motor as 'directly driving'
the drive wheel(s) through a gear reduction unit...they do not call it a
transmission...they do call it direct drive. In most all the tech
service manuals in the maintenance sections, they warn about jacking up
and securely blocking the truck because of the 'direct drive' and the
ability of an electric motor to accidentally get turned-on.
Example (3)
Car and Driver wrote the story on my car...I had nothing to do with it
other than pushing to get some of those who have helped with sponsorship
mentioned in the final copy. They are what most everyone would call
automotive experts. In the article they call my car 'direct drive'...
"Maximum rpm is about 7000, which thanks to a 4:11 final drive, is just
enough to get this direct-drive car down the quarter-mile."
If Car and Driver thinks a car without a transmission and with an
electric motor coupled directly to the rear end is 'direct-drive',
that's good enough for me.
See Ya.....John Wayland
...owner of both an EV with a flywheel, clutch, and 4 speed transmission
and an EV that's direct-drive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
I hope someone can identify this big motor / generator ? or at least a
manufacturer .
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=1120
Thanks, Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm new the the list and am ready to pull the trigger on a conversion, but
was wondering if anyone has incorporated power steering and A/C as part of
their conversion.
Thanks in advance!
Guy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
I agree with you. Even if there is a reducer between
the motor and rear end. If it is a single fixed ratio
drive, it is direct drive. If it is multiple ratio,
it is a transmission. That has been the customary
terminology for as long as I can remember.
Jeff
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> >Not to pick bones, but that would be a single speed
> transmission.
> >
> >
>
> Peter has brought this 'correction' up many times,
> and though I usually
> find myself in agreement on most things with him, I
> have to disagree
> this time.
>
> >Direct drive implies that you are /direct/ly
> driving the wheel with the
> >motor.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Perhaps in a purely engineering environment where
> everything is literal,
> but not in the normal context of the automotive
> world (the world that
> EVs are in) where direct drive 'means' that the
> motor(s) 'directly
> drives' the rear end without the aid of a multispeed
> transmission or the
> inclusion of a clutch or torque converter. The
> 'transmission' has always
> meant the box between the drive motor and the rear
> end that provides
> multiple gear ratios. Front drive combines the
> differential and the
> multispeed transmission into one unit, hence the
> term 'transaxle'. On a
> rear drive affair, remove the transmission between
> the motor and the
> rear end, and you have direct drive right into the
> rear end.
>
> Example (1)
>
> When talking with the engineers from GM back in '96
> about 'Sunnyside
> Up', the land speed Impact (forerunner to the EV1),
> they too, referred
> to the car as direct drive, since it had no
> selectable gear ratios. I
> know, because I asked them how they got the thing up
> to 180+ mph when I
> queried, "Did you install a 2 or 3 speed transaxle?"
> Their answer? "No,
> it's still direct drive...we did change the
> reduction ratio to something
> quite a bit taller though." They actually used the
> term 'direct-drive'.
>
> The transaxle of the EV1 is a gear reduction system,
> not a transmission.
> I will admit, that in EV1 literature they referred
> to the reduction
> system as a single speed transmission, but even that
> was incorrect, as
> it was technically a 'single speed transaxle' not a
> transmission. In a
> rear wheel drive car though, no one would ever call
> the rear end a
> 'single speed transmission'...they call it a rear
> end, or 'final drive
> ratio'.
>
> Example (2)
>
> I work in the forklift industry, where nearly every
> electric drive
> system is called 'direct drive'. The 'drive unit' is
> never called a
> 'transmission', it's always called the 'drive unit',
> and in pretty much
> all the tech info they refer to the electric motor
> as 'directly driving'
> the drive wheel(s) through a gear reduction
> unit...they do not call it a
> transmission...they do call it direct drive. In most
> all the tech
> service manuals in the maintenance sections, they
> warn about jacking up
> and securely blocking the truck because of the
> 'direct drive' and the
> ability of an electric motor to accidentally get
> turned-on.
>
> Example (3)
>
> Car and Driver wrote the story on my car...I had
> nothing to do with it
> other than pushing to get some of those who have
> helped with sponsorship
> mentioned in the final copy. They are what most
> everyone would call
> automotive experts. In the article they call my car
> 'direct drive'...
> "Maximum rpm is about 7000, which thanks to a 4:11
> final drive, is just
> enough to get this direct-drive car down the
> quarter-mile."
>
> If Car and Driver thinks a car without a
> transmission and with an
> electric motor coupled directly to the rear end is
> 'direct-drive',
> that's good enough for me.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
> ...owner of both an EV with a flywheel, clutch, and
> 4 speed transmission
> and an EV that's direct-drive.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Sick
sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wayne, at ev-blue.com has done this before...
He's got some really good pictures detailing how it might be done.
I wish I lived closer to his shop...
Anyway.
Running accessories 'requires' an electric drive motor with 2-half-shafts
(one to drive the trans, the other to drive accessories).
http://www.ev-blue.com/photos.html
This picture shows a 1-wire alternator for use for charging the 12-volt
battery, as well as an AC compressor.
http://www.ev-blue.com/98-S10/023.jpg
There has been a variety of discussion regarding power steering...
When the drive-motor isn't turning, no power steering.
When it is, you're moving, after which the front wheels are easier to turn
anyway.
(you do NOT want an unloaded series-electric motor turning, as it runs the
risk of 'running away' and 'blowing up').
Thus, you're probably looking at electric power steering, with some kind
of speed sensor to turn it on at low speeds (I have found its not really
needed above 15mph).
My conversion isn't done, once its complete (and I've gotten it to
actually go down the road) I'll add other stuff, such as AC and whatnot.
The original vehicle (in my case) had 'manual' steering, so I'll probably
stick with that.
"Guy Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
05/18/2007 11:19
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
cc
Subject
Power Stering and A/C
I'm new the the list and am ready to pull the trigger on a conversion, but
was wondering if anyone has incorporated power steering and A/C as part of
their conversion.
Thanks in advance!
Guy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Guy,
Yes, I have all that and more. See http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html
These pictures were taken back in 2002. The last mod was done in 2000.
Since then I added three electric drives for the accessories, a EVCan
electric power steering unit, a back up electric clutch that comes off the
pilot shaft of the motor to provide backup power to the accessory drive in
case the drive motors or the DC-DC converters go out and provides accessory
REGEN while the drive motors are off line.
A hot water electric heating system was added, Zilla and Zilla water cool
fill tank, a PFC-50 charger that raise out of back compartment on gas
struts, two more contactors, chassis boxes, more switches and instruments.
So you can barely see the components in this EV now.
I mounted the A/C unit, as well as a inverter-alternator, a vacuum pump and
two 3 hp drive motors a GMC accessory aluminum mounting plate that is
normally install on the front of a diesel engine. It has all the bracket
mounts to hold all the accessories including a GMC vacuum pump.
I mounted this accessory plate onto a large 1/2 inch thick aluminum plate
that is bolted to a 4 in. x 4 in. by 3/8 aluminum angle at the bottom which
is bolted down to the frame with two engine donuts mounts. Another support
plate is mounted 4 inches behind this which is only a foot high, and all is
bolt down to the frame in like manner.
The motor pilot shaft has a Dodge Dynaflex coupler on it is connected to a
drive shaft through two face mounted bearings on the two mounting plates.
This drive shaft is in the save position that a engine damper wheel and
pulley would be at.
You do not need a damper wheel, but I use the same diameter pulleys on all
the accessories as it would be on a engine. The pulleys I use are
industrial solid steel type, not the stamp sheet metal type. You could also
use a serpentine belt kit also.
I am do a mod now, while I remove the Dynaflex coupler and install a
electric clutch which will disconnect the motor from the accessory drive
unit when the accessory motors go off line, during a coast down long hills.
This provides safety for me, so the EV does not run away going down long
hills in the winter on icy hills. During this time, the alternator-inverter
provides 120 VAC 60 cycle 6kw to the on board battery charger, to provide
some REGEN to the batteries.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Power Stering and A/C
> I'm new the the list and am ready to pull the trigger on a conversion, but
> was wondering if anyone has incorporated power steering and A/C as part of
> their conversion.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Guy
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't identify it, but here's what you need to do with it.
Pulling tractor. Contactor armature control. Controller on the shunt
field. Lots and lots of agm batteries well placed for maximum traction.
Darin
BadFishRacing
Original Message:
-----------------
From: William Brinsmead [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:27:51 -0700
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Mystery Motor Help
Hi Folks,
I hope someone can identify this big motor / generator ? or at least a
manufacturer .
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=1120
Thanks, Bill
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even after reviewing all the Regen info I could find in both the archives and
the web in general I
was hoping someone could help clarify a couple of specific points on it. Keep
in mind I am talking
about a brushed DC SepEx motor.
_____________________________________________
| | | |
| 'Regen' | 'Go' | / \
--- Chopper / Freewheel _____ /Motor\
- / Diode / \ \ /
--- | | \ /
- | | |
| |__________________|__________|
| | |
| 'Regen' | |
| Freewheel? | 'Go' /
| Diode _____ Chopper /
| / \ |
| | |
| | |
______________|_____________________________|
Assuming that the choppers are PWM driven MOSFETs during 'motoring' current
will flow from the
battery through the motor and the 'Go' chopper when on and through the 'Go'
freewheel diode when
off. The battery voltage is always greater than the motor voltage in this
scenario so therefore
current flows in this direction. (I'm talking positive to negative,
conventional? flow) So up to
this point it's pretty clear to me.
However, when we leave the 'Go' chopper off (open) and I apply full field
current this is where it
gets fuzzy. What exactly is happening to the armature windings? They are now
rotating through the
fields' flux and therefore should be creating a voltage across the windings
correct? However,
because they are not hooked to anything there is no current flow. And because
there is no current
there is no 'back' torque or stopping power?
And the voltage that is produced is proportional to the RPM correct? Which for
this particular
motor would be full pack voltage at base speed, right? Or, if there was any
field weakening the
correspondingly lower voltage? In other words, with field weakening the RPMs
would need to rise to
match the RPMs that the motor would spin at full pack voltage with that
particular field strength?
So in order to get current to actually flow back into the battery I need a
greater voltage, and I
will only get that if the motor is rotating at greater than base speed right?
And below base speed
there is no way I could get any regen unless somehow I can boost the voltage.
This is where I need
some help. If we were to 'chop' the regen, as the regen mosfet is closed this
basically shorts the
motor windings allowing current to flow (ramp?) through the windings and the
regen mosfet. Then
when the mosfet is switched off, because of the inductance of the armature
windings the current
continues to flow as the field collapses. But is this voltage proportional to
the duty cycle and
actually higher than the battery pack voltage at some duty cycle less than 100%
and RPM below base
speed? Is this how you can get regen at lower speeds?
And if this is all true, then how can you control the voltage produced in the
off cycle? Do you
simply need to reduce the duty cycle or do you also need to adjust the field
current?
A final question, should I be worried about generating too high a voltage and
protect the
batteries and capicitors (omitted from the diagram) somehow with like a high
power zener (if there
is such a thing)?
I will have 108V nominal battery pack. Is there such a thing as a 135V or so
Zener? How much power
would it need to dissipate? Or, should I try to simply keep the voltage down
with the duty cycle?
Thanks for any help,
Chet Fields
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
