EV Digest 6796
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A123 Automotive Propulsion Battery
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Stock rims vs. aftermarket; also slotted rotors?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Semi-electronic controllers?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) How regen works (was: SepEx Regen Chopper)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charging Stations
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Charging Stations
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Calling Rich Rudman
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New Pack and RudmenRegs
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Stock rims vs. aftermarket; also slotted rotors?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Charging Stations
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry jeff, the entire sight is flash. Sounds like it is time for you
to upgrade your computer ;)
Those batteries sound pretty sweet. Now we just need to get our hands
on some ;)
I emailed them... for what that's worth.
Tehben
On May 19, 2007, at 7:27 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Grumble. Another flash only, not even a simple backup link that works,
STUPID buggy, Bandwidth hogging Flash. Web designers who are sure they
know what I want, Line em up and shoot em as far as I am concerned.
Can you post me a link just pass the darn flash stuff so I can see the
content. (Flash is "blocked" on this 64bit OS)
My biggest fear is that you will have to be a Major car company to get
your hands on one and will have to agree not to divulge, sell, etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, May 19, 2007 10:44 pm, Bob Bath wrote:
> I'm wondering about the difference in braking with a
> nice set of wheels. I've had stock Civic 13" rims
> forever. If I get a set of 14" rims, any weight
> savings (not that I need it) will be off-set by
> heavier tires, and greater rolling resistance, I'd
> imagine; a few more amps from a dead-stop getting it
> all moving. Has anyone else done this type of switch
> _with an EV and has actual anecdotal findings_?
While I unfortunately do not yet have any sort of EV experience with
larger wheels, I've put them on my Integra after my stock wheels were
stolen and the difference is undeniable. My upsize was a bit more severe
than yours, from 15 to 18 inches. The new wheels are very minimal (7
fairly thin spokes) and a little lighter than stock but the mass being
moved away from the hub definitely gives them more inertia. Acceleration
is noticeably slower. Cornering is very much improved, and of course much
larger brakes will now fit.
> Related issue is that I'd be doing this to get some
> more air to my rotors, as well as improve the
> cosmetics a bit. What are LISTers experience with
> stopping distance, or am I better off to do
> cross-drilled, slotted rotors?
>
> I've read both ends of the spectrum: that it's the
> greatest thing since sliced bread, and that it's snake
> oil that does _nothing_ for stopping power.
>
My understanding is that slots and especially crossdrilling do indeed
improve braking performance, for all the reasons you've probably read --
allowing expanding vapors to escape from between the pad and the rotor.
However, they've fallen out of favor due to the cracking they can cause
under severe use. I purchased drilled and slotted Wilwoods for my truck,
and had I known the full story I probably would have stuck with plain
rotors. These days I think drilled rotors are mainly the choice for those
who want that look.
Just the same, I don't think I'll be using them heavily enough to care. If
you get drilled rotors you may want to check that they have a smooth
rounded chamfer at each hole, to reduce stress.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The LEV200 contactors are pretty quiet, I can't hear them click when
driving the Fiero, tire and trans noise is louder.
Lee Hart wrote:
Tom Gocze wrote:
How about a contactor/rectactor type controller that used some form of
electronic switching, not PWM, but just an electronic on off switch?
Sure; this has been done. Many controllers are hybrids; they have a PWM
controller, plus contactors for on/off and forward/reverse switching.
Very high power motor controllers use IGBTs or SCRs for their switches,
but wire them to switch the motor and/or supply voltage into various
series/parallel combinations much as you would a contactor controller.
Seems like most of the distress that people have with contactor
controllers is the noise.
Of course, switches and contactors don't have to make any noise. There
are lots of silent ones. Mercury switches, rotary switches, knife
switches, and slide switches are pretty quiet. But for most
applications, customers don't care if it makes noise, and "clack/clunk"
based contactors are cheaper; so that's what gets sold.
Or as Jerry Dycus said, you can put them in a soundproof box.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you use a switch (chopper) to "short" the armature momentarily, then the
current that was flowing there has no where to go all the sudden, and begins
to build up as a magnetic field in the armature. This is essentially
"storing" the energy as inductance. Then the switch opens, and the magnetic
field collapses, it's lines of force cutting back across the windings (just
the opposite of what was happening an instant ago.) It induces a high
voltage in the coils and that turns the freewheeling diode on and dumps the
now (much higher voltage) into the battery bank. The switching is done very
fast, so the magnetic field never reaches saturation.
This is the same principle used in a "boost converter" but rather than using
a separate inductor, we just use the rather large (and very handy) one
that's in the motor.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "tt2tjw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: SepEx Regen Chopper - Help!
Chet
Citroen sepex controllers are arranged like this,
__________
| | |
/ /\ |
_______| | ---- +
| | | - -
motor / /\ |
| | | |
-----------------
"Go" chopper on the high side. "Regen" chopper on the low side
As far as I understand you don't need the regen chopper untill you are
below full field full voltage RPM, above that ROM current will flow
through the free wheel diode into the battery.
Like you I still don't understand how regen occurs at low RPM, I have been
told it is dependent on the inductance of the armature, I haven't had time
to read up about inductance but will let you know if I do,.... or
hopefully someone more knowledgeable will reply first.
Personally I'm not that bothered about regen at low RPM but I'm not sure
if there will be a problem for the motor if it isn't implemented.
I have a manual which describes the principle but not the finer details of
my controller, its in French, I am emailing it to you.
I can also send some pictures of the internals of the controller, if that
will help you, but not immediately.
go well,
Tom Ward.
Chet Fields wrote:
Even after reviewing all the Regen info I could find in both the archives
and the web in general I
was hoping someone could help clarify a couple of specific points on it.
Keep in mind I am talking
about a brushed DC SepEx motor.
_____________________________________________
| | | |
| 'Regen' | 'Go' | / \
--- Chopper / Freewheel _____ /Motor\
- / Diode / \ \ /
--- | | \ /
- | | |
| |__________________|__________|
| | | | 'Regen' |
| | Freewheel? | 'Go' / | Diode _____
Chopper /
| / \ | | |
| | | |
______________|_____________________________|
Assuming that the choppers are PWM driven MOSFETs during 'motoring'
current will flow from the
battery through the motor and the 'Go' chopper when on and through the
'Go' freewheel diode when
off. The battery voltage is always greater than the motor voltage in this
scenario so therefore
current flows in this direction. (I'm talking positive to negative,
conventional? flow) So up to
this point it's pretty clear to me.
However, when we leave the 'Go' chopper off (open) and I apply full field
current this is where it
gets fuzzy. What exactly is happening to the armature windings? They are
now rotating through the
fields' flux and therefore should be creating a voltage across the
windings correct? However,
because they are not hooked to anything there is no current flow. And
because there is no current
there is no 'back' torque or stopping power?
And the voltage that is produced is proportional to the RPM correct?
Which for this particular
motor would be full pack voltage at base speed, right? Or, if there was
any field weakening the
correspondingly lower voltage? In other words, with field weakening the
RPMs would need to rise to
match the RPMs that the motor would spin at full pack voltage with that
particular field strength?
So in order to get current to actually flow back into the battery I need
a greater voltage, and I
will only get that if the motor is rotating at greater than base speed
right? And below base speed
there is no way I could get any regen unless somehow I can boost the
voltage. This is where I need
some help. If we were to 'chop' the regen, as the regen mosfet is closed
this basically shorts the
motor windings allowing current to flow (ramp?) through the windings and
the regen mosfet. Then
when the mosfet is switched off, because of the inductance of the
armature windings the current
continues to flow as the field collapses. But is this voltage
proportional to the duty cycle and
actually higher than the battery pack voltage at some duty cycle less
than 100% and RPM below base
speed? Is this how you can get regen at lower speeds?
And if this is all true, then how can you control the voltage produced in
the off cycle? Do you
simply need to reduce the duty cycle or do you also need to adjust the
field current?
A final question, should I be worried about generating too high a voltage
and protect the
batteries and capicitors (omitted from the diagram) somehow with like a
high power zener (if there
is such a thing)?
I will have 108V nominal battery pack. Is there such a thing as a 135V or
so Zener? How much power
would it need to dissipate? Or, should I try to simply keep the voltage
down with the duty cycle?
Thanks for any help,
Chet Fields
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I designed an off-hours fueling station for a Biodiesel collective here in
Berkeley. They wanted to be able to fuel 24/7. This is similar to your
problem, but with more plumbing! =)
I would never design an EV charging system that couldn't plug into a
standard 15/20a 120v outlet. They are everywhere. If I did have a
high-current 240v charge outlet at home, I'd still like the option of
plugging in wherever I may find 120v. With most charger designs moving to
PFC correction and Switch-mode design, adding dual-voltage is not much extra
to design in.
Hoping that most chargers are designed with this philosophy in mind, at the
very least, I'd put a 120v 20a dedicated circuit at each station. For most
EV's, the commute would be nicely offset by ~8 hours of charging at 2.4kw.
Then the next step, if you can't get the university to just eat that minor
electrical cost, is to install a small station similar to my design for the
Biodiesel pump. It consisted of a mag-stripe reader, a pump relay, a
flowmeter and a small single board computer with a wifi connection. It
would read the magnetic stripe now present on most drivers licenses, but
could easily use any credential with a mag-stripe. Credit card, Employee
ID, credit card, EV charging card, etc.
In place of the flow meter, you put an ammeter. You pull up in your EV,
plug in, swipe your card and the relay closes. It then watches the power
consumed and debits your account. In my system, the small single board
computer was simply a repurposed $40 wireless router. It runs linux and
communicates via WiFi to a central Linux server with a MySQL database.
It's connected to the internet and has a web-interface that lets you check
your balance and add funds, etc.
The hardware is cheap enough that it could also be used simply to "survey" a
free EV charging station to determine how much real usage it's getting and
what the long-term costs will be in electricity.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: Charging Stations
Sort of a general set of questions for the collective:
At the university where I teach -- Thompson Rivers
University in Kamloops, BC -- our Environmental
Sustainability Committee is tackling some issues
like recycling, xeriscape and sustainable energy.
One of the topics I've injected into the
conversation is the idea of providing charging
stations on campus for people who use EVs.
We have a local dealer for some brand of little
electric scooter who sells a fair number of them
to people who ride them to campus, and there
is interest in the community for various kinds of
EVs from purpose-built to conversions.
Since I live 40 km from campus, one of my criteria
for using an EV is having access to electrons.
Off the top of my head, I think having outlets
available for both 220 and 110 would be ideal.
I'm not sure of the details, but having charging
drops installed at the bases of the lights in the
parking lots sounds fairly logical. We have an
electrical trades program on campus that would
no doubt get involved to do wiring, and other
trades that could be asked to build station
infrastructure.
Questions:
1. If 220 is in place (at the lamp posts, say), is
it useful to have both 220 and 110 available, or
do most onboard chargers simply need 110?
2. What current capacity per vehicle? The onboard
charger for the S-10 conversion (CanEV) that I'm
looking at needs a 15A circuit.
3. How to pay for power? I can see that at some
point there would be enough people charging to
noticeably affect the university's hydro bill. What
kinds of options are other people using -- pay a
flat rate of a few dollars per month based on usage,
incorporate a metering device?
I can see being able to pull into a parking space,
unreel my 110 cord, and stick a toonie in the meter
to give me six hours of charge or so. That might
be problematic if I used the vehicle during the day
to run errands or go to lunch and couldn't get the
same spot when I returned, so I could also see
either a flat yearly fee or a monthly payroll deduction
to pay for charging.
Or, being a professor, I suppose I could install a
wind turbine on the front of my lectern and charge
my EV while boring my students to tears. :)=)}
What kinds of charging stations are installed at other
places -- or are we really breaking new ground here?
Chuck
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail, with safety bar colour coding, helps identify
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bigger is better.
Almost everybody can use 15 amps of 120.
But Want to fill your SUV through a straw???
Big guys want 50 amps of 240. It's as big as we can find in the normal house
hold.
It's a standard for RV and Welder outlets. It's as old as Dirt.
So.. You HAVE to have 15 amps of 120. 30 amps of 240 is a nice jump and 50
amps of 240 is a Dream.
Infrastructure... I gave a talk about it at the AVI summit in Wenatchee
Tuesday morning.
Anyone that really wants to get some oil off the market and get some miles
on the grid.. will need a lot more than 1800 watts. Nice for toys and show
off Plug ins. But to really be useful more than once a day.. you need 30
Plus amps of 240. 6 to 8 hour charge cycles are almost useless.. Except for
those perfect Hollywood EV runs..
The plug in Dogma is 15 amps and 120VAC "Normal" house hold current. That
limits your return on your EV/Plug in investment to maybe twice a day. If
you are lucky. This is just not enough to make much difference in your miles
traveled to your cost of fuel. You get to "Save" a half gallon of Gasoline a
day...that's it....Spend 80 cents to save $1.75 cents of fuel.
I run about 5 to 10 short cycles a day on the Green Car Co's Green machine
that is equipped with my PiPrius kit.. Drive charge Drive.! This tank of
Gas has been over Stevens pass, and back ...4061 Ft pass in the Cascades..
at 65 miles a hour and the tank average is 59.1 mpg.. The average while I
was running East bound was at 47.5 MPG, I used a full charge going West
bound... ran out about 1/2 mile from the summit but clocked a 52.5 mpg
average.. while I still had charge support. Since then.. I am back to errand
running mode and the Tank Average is climbing still. But I am about to run
out. I hope to log 60 Mpg as a tank average, With a serious mountain pass
between Full and Empty.
For some reason the Prius can only take on about 6.4 gallons of gas.. there
is some issue with the in tank Bladder... I was hoping to have a 1000 mile
tank of gas to brag about.. no dice....
Yet! I got 8.4 gallons in the last fill up and the dash was blinking "Danger
low fuel", I don't like walking away from a customer's car with a empty gas
can... Kinda bad Jue Jue...
I don't know how many charge events I have used on this tank it's up in the
3 to 4 Dozen. Supporting the Lead Acid Mantra.. "If it's not moving it's
plugged in". I bet I have better than 100 cycles of every sort from long
strokes to 1/2 Kw runs to the shop.
Point here is.. with 30s amp of 240... you can get many miles of support a
day.. and you are getting many more miles off the oil tap.. and many more
from the grid.
Put simply 30 amps of 240 is 4 times the tool 15a of 120v is, and 50a of
240 is 6.67 times the force multiplier. You get more for the same hardware.
The Bigger the better. The more the merrier.
Bill.. any one have real cycle life numbers of a A123 pack doing Plug in
Hybrid service?
10,000 cycles with little or no issues from the pack?
I sure hope they work this good.. It's what we are being sold and expect.
But in the mean time.. I am getting 100s of cycle from Lead Acid.. at a cost
of $180 a kilowatt hour. And this is in about a 2 week's time.
We will get 1000s of real cycles from Lead.... We expect 10 times that for
Lions...
But Lion comes at $2000 a Kwhr... More than that if you use the best there
is and that's A123.
All the Lion powered Plug in PHEVs I know of have 1800 watt chargers.. and
this severely limits the usefulness of the idea.
The Chelan county convention center in Wenatchee has a series of Plug in
ports in the back parking lot... in the Tree lined islands.. the have a 50
amp 240 VAC 1450, and 30 amp 120 and a pair of 15 amp 120s all in a cute
little Gray box..there are 4 of them. I suppose this is for Rv and motor
homes that need to stay for a convention. But.. in the parking lot it's one
of the best EV plug in centers that I have seen.
They could use a little sprucing up....They look long forgotten.. I can tell
you that the Green Machine and the White Bird Drank happily off them what at
the AVI summit.
I suggest that you install this kind of Charge port .
The new building at the Wenatchee Valley college also has or will have many
15 amp 120 VAC outlets for light EVs and scooters and a couple of 30 amp
240s.
If you know where to look behind the Auto center shops is a 50 amp 240
1450.. specifically for charging White Bird and other Plug in EVs.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: Charging Stations
> Sort of a general set of questions for the collective:
>
> At the university where I teach -- Thompson Rivers
> University in Kamloops, BC -- our Environmental
> Sustainability Committee is tackling some issues
> like recycling, xeriscape and sustainable energy.
>
> One of the topics I've injected into the
> conversation is the idea of providing charging
> stations on campus for people who use EVs.
>
> We have a local dealer for some brand of little
> electric scooter who sells a fair number of them
> to people who ride them to campus, and there
> is interest in the community for various kinds of
> EVs from purpose-built to conversions.
>
> Since I live 40 km from campus, one of my criteria
> for using an EV is having access to electrons.
>
> Off the top of my head, I think having outlets
> available for both 220 and 110 would be ideal.
> I'm not sure of the details, but having charging
> drops installed at the bases of the lights in the
> parking lots sounds fairly logical. We have an
> electrical trades program on campus that would
> no doubt get involved to do wiring, and other
> trades that could be asked to build station
> infrastructure.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. If 220 is in place (at the lamp posts, say), is
> it useful to have both 220 and 110 available, or
> do most onboard chargers simply need 110?
>
> 2. What current capacity per vehicle? The onboard
> charger for the S-10 conversion (CanEV) that I'm
> looking at needs a 15A circuit.
>
> 3. How to pay for power? I can see that at some
> point there would be enough people charging to
> noticeably affect the university's hydro bill. What
> kinds of options are other people using -- pay a
> flat rate of a few dollars per month based on usage,
> incorporate a metering device?
>
> I can see being able to pull into a parking space,
> unreel my 110 cord, and stick a toonie in the meter
> to give me six hours of charge or so. That might
> be problematic if I used the vehicle during the day
> to run errands or go to lunch and couldn't get the
> same spot when I returned, so I could also see
> either a flat yearly fee or a monthly payroll deduction
> to pay for charging.
>
> Or, being a professor, I suppose I could install a
> wind turbine on the front of my lectern and charge
> my EV while boring my students to tears. :)=)}
>
> What kinds of charging stations are installed at other
> places -- or are we really breaking new ground here?
>
> Chuck
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live Hotmail, with safety bar colour coding, helps identify
> suspicious mail before it takes your daughter out on a date. Upgrade today
> for a better look. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA152
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello!
What's up ?
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Dempsey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Calling Rich Rudman
> Anyone know if Rich is away from the desk for a while? I emailed him and
have heard nothing.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
Games.
> http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has to be a temp switch. The analog input idea was just too sloppy.
Find a 120 to 140 Deg F Snap disc type temp switch. Plug into the RT2
header.
Short the header.. the charger goes to zero power in about 2.5 seconds.
First keep in mind that the header is Refed to the Charger's negative
Battery buss. To ground you have AC.... line voltage.. so Don't short the
sensor to chassis.
I use RTV silicone or any glue that hold the sensor to the battery.. Top of
the cells... on the flat side or in the grove of the Cell rolls. This gets
the sensor as close to the lead as possible.
I have never had a thermal runaway with AGM batteries. Clearly you hope the
battery you have the sensor on, is the one that is in trouble.
Covering your Butt for all thermal possibilities becomes a wiring and
statistical nightmare.
Setting your peak voltage down so the possibilities of a thermal runaway are
remote.. is also a really good idea.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:25 PM
Subject: New Pack and RudmenRegs
> I am putting in a new pack of orbitals and was wanting to put the
> regulators other than on top of the batteries. How do I use the external
> temperature probe? mounts to post or goop to side of battery? Is it a
> Thermocouple or an RTD or a thermister.?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be great! Can you bring it to the Wayland Invite 3?
Your 12.49 is an awesome time. Bill's numbers aside, yours is the most
impressive bike run on the chart.
Let's line em up !
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
HI- Congratulations on your great speeds and times. It sounds like
after Wed. I'll have to try to talk Winners Automotive into dusting off
"Dragon Rose" and get back to the track.
I don't think many people realize how difficult going from 90 mph to
100mph electricly is.
it took me 7 years.
Good luck wed. Father Time
[Original Message]
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Date: 5/19/2007 5:50:43 PM
Subject: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
On what was supposed to be a nice sunny day in Thompson Ohio The
Lawless Industries AGNS bike and crew were looking for 4-5 good runs
and a shot at both the NEDRA 144 volt motorcycle record and the 100
MPH
club. Well unexpected rain put a damper on the fire but not until 2
runs were in the books. Run # 1 flashed on the board as a 12.92 @
102
MPH. AGNS is in the club! An hr. later we got a chance to back it
up.
Run #2 showed the 12 old Hawkers were starting to come alive.
12.67 @
106 MPH. I believe that since these are more than 1% apart that the
slower time of 12.92 will stand as the new NEDRA record. We started
having visions of the 11's and 110+. We saw the rain coming but since
the batteries were getting into their temperature comfort zone we
went
ahead and charged ole AGNS till she couldn't take any more. It
wasn't
meant to be. The rain came and we departed for a victory dinner,
leaving behind a whole group of folks scratching their heads over how
a
silent little minibike can stay darn near a tricked up Hayabusa for
half a track and keeps gets quicker and quicker every single run.
Next
stop 125 MPH Club. I cannot explain how much darn fun this little
bike
has become.
Dear Mr. Rudman, per your comments of a few days ago... AGNS will be
at
the track on Wednesday with sights on the 168 volt record of 12.49 @
100 MPH. Prepare to eat your hat.
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd actually highly recommend going for some light
weight wheels after I did so with my 92 Saturn
conversion. I replaced the stock alloy wheels with
Kosei K1-TS wheels in the same 15" size, though they
are an inch wider at 7". The 15" only weights 12.6
lbs! I weighed the stock alloys and I saved 8lbs per
wheel of rotating mass. The Goodyear Integrity tires
(at least somewhat LRR) actually now weight 1 lb more
than the wheels do!
Here's the wheel:
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/WheelCloseUpServlet?target=wheelCloseUp&wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
http://tinyurl.com/2z6572
The 14" version weights in at 10lbs I think. If you
put in your vehicle information you can look at it
with their different wheels and they do actually list
weights for their lighter wheels in that window. With
14's you do have a good selection of LRR tires you
could use as well. Considering your current tire size
I'd go for a set of Bridgestone Potenza RE92
175/65R14's which is the older Prius tire, they have
an extra load rated version of this tire and it is
LRR. It would be just a hair taller than your existing
tire, but I think it would be ~1% off overall
diameter.
With my Saturn I already had the Goodyear Integrities
on my stock wheels (185/65R15), and I have no
scientific data for this, but you know how your car is
and how it drives. Well with a pack of 12 flooded 12
volt batteries (144 volt) it took about 200 amps to
accelerate with traffic here in Phoenix. Going to the
light weight Kosei wheels it dropped it to about 150
amps to accelerate with traffic! It made all the
noticeable difference in the world. The only
efficiency improvement I made that was better than the
wheels was getting a 0 toe in alignment, and it should
be noted I had a good 3/8" toe out going on before so
that wasn't helping. Cruising amps stayed about the
same, maybe a tad less. The other benefit too is you
get less noticeable costing momentum. Lets be honest
with a DC EV in traffic you can coast a long way and
unless you are perfect at judging traffic patterns
you'll waste a good bit of energy to braking. I much
prefer spending less energy to get rolling and then
not have to waste as much to braking when someone
makes a turn in front of you. This wasn't hugely
significant, you still have all that lead pushing you
along, but it was noticeable and something I liked.
As far as brakes my understanding is cross drilled and
slotted is really more for looks than anything, and
there is very little real world improvement in
performance. The theory is you have more surface area
for cooling. I've never actually had cross drilled or
slotted rotors so I can't contest to any personal
experience; however, I am putting a much larger
battery pack in my Saturn here in the coming months so
I'm already in the process of planning some brake
upgrades. My Saturn had a factory option for rear disk
brakes, so I'm going to go junkyarding to see if I can
find the necessary brackets and stuff to do this, then
hopefully some larger front disks.
Later,
Rick
92 Saturn SC Conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"
Glendale, AZ
> > Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 20:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Stock rims vs. aftermarket; also slotted
> rotors?
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> I'm wondering about the difference in braking with a
> nice set of wheels. I've had stock Civic 13" rims
> forever. If I get a set of 14" rims, any weight
> savings (not that I need it) will be off-set by
> heavier tires, and greater rolling resistance, I'd
> imagine; a few more amps from a dead-stop getting it
> all moving. Has anyone else done this type of
> switch
> _with an EV and has actual anecdotal findings_?
> Related issue is that I'd be doing this to get
> some
> more air to my rotors, as well as improve the
> cosmetics a bit. What are LISTers experience with
> stopping distance, or am I better off to do
> cross-drilled, slotted rotors?
>
> I've read both ends of the spectrum: that it's the
> greatest thing since sliced bread, and that it's
> snake
> oil that does _nothing_ for stopping power.
>
> Would be eager to here some perspectives.
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came
> out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas
> for your kids?
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Take
the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,
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--- Begin Message ---
Let's look at it this way, the cost of putting in 20a 120v is far less than
240v of any amperage. In order to convince more EV charge stations to be
put in by employers and municipalities, it's a trade-off that has merit.
Personally, for a work parking lot, I'd rather have 2 spaces with 120v/20a
than one 240v/50a.
If my employer said no to 240v/50a, then I'd then ask for 120v/20a. Harder
to say no to. Hell, might even already have one or 2 of those wired up
already!
When you park at work, you are there all day, for 5 days in a row. Many
EV'ers get an EV specifically just to do the work commute every weekday, so
if you can have free charging at work, then it's an awesome incentive for
more of us to go EV! With $4/gal the commute is going to get pricey!
If you skip the lunch break, that's 8 hours! 19.2kwh is substantial when
it's free!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Charging Stations
Bigger is better.
Almost everybody can use 15 amps of 120.
But Want to fill your SUV through a straw???
Big guys want 50 amps of 240. It's as big as we can find in the normal
house
hold.
It's a standard for RV and Welder outlets. It's as old as Dirt.
So.. You HAVE to have 15 amps of 120. 30 amps of 240 is a nice jump and 50
amps of 240 is a Dream.
Infrastructure... I gave a talk about it at the AVI summit in Wenatchee
Tuesday morning.
Anyone that really wants to get some oil off the market and get some miles
on the grid.. will need a lot more than 1800 watts. Nice for toys and
show
off Plug ins. But to really be useful more than once a day.. you need 30
Plus amps of 240. 6 to 8 hour charge cycles are almost useless.. Except
for
those perfect Hollywood EV runs..
The plug in Dogma is 15 amps and 120VAC "Normal" house hold current. That
limits your return on your EV/Plug in investment to maybe twice a day. If
you are lucky. This is just not enough to make much difference in your
miles
traveled to your cost of fuel. You get to "Save" a half gallon of Gasoline
a
day...that's it....Spend 80 cents to save $1.75 cents of fuel.
I run about 5 to 10 short cycles a day on the Green Car Co's Green
machine
that is equipped with my PiPrius kit.. Drive charge Drive.! This tank
of
Gas has been over Stevens pass, and back ...4061 Ft pass in the Cascades..
at 65 miles a hour and the tank average is 59.1 mpg.. The average while I
was running East bound was at 47.5 MPG, I used a full charge going West
bound... ran out about 1/2 mile from the summit but clocked a 52.5 mpg
average.. while I still had charge support. Since then.. I am back to
errand
running mode and the Tank Average is climbing still. But I am about to run
out. I hope to log 60 Mpg as a tank average, With a serious mountain pass
between Full and Empty.
For some reason the Prius can only take on about 6.4 gallons of gas..
there
is some issue with the in tank Bladder... I was hoping to have a 1000 mile
tank of gas to brag about.. no dice....
Yet! I got 8.4 gallons in the last fill up and the dash was blinking
"Danger
low fuel", I don't like walking away from a customer's car with a empty
gas
can... Kinda bad Jue Jue...
I don't know how many charge events I have used on this tank it's up in
the
3 to 4 Dozen. Supporting the Lead Acid Mantra.. "If it's not moving it's
plugged in". I bet I have better than 100 cycles of every sort from long
strokes to 1/2 Kw runs to the shop.
Point here is.. with 30s amp of 240... you can get many miles of support a
day.. and you are getting many more miles off the oil tap.. and many more
from the grid.
Put simply 30 amps of 240 is 4 times the tool 15a of 120v is, and 50a of
240 is 6.67 times the force multiplier. You get more for the same
hardware.
The Bigger the better. The more the merrier.
Bill.. any one have real cycle life numbers of a A123 pack doing Plug in
Hybrid service?
10,000 cycles with little or no issues from the pack?
I sure hope they work this good.. It's what we are being sold and expect.
But in the mean time.. I am getting 100s of cycle from Lead Acid.. at a
cost
of $180 a kilowatt hour. And this is in about a 2 week's time.
We will get 1000s of real cycles from Lead.... We expect 10 times that for
Lions...
But Lion comes at $2000 a Kwhr... More than that if you use the best there
is and that's A123.
All the Lion powered Plug in PHEVs I know of have 1800 watt chargers.. and
this severely limits the usefulness of the idea.
The Chelan county convention center in Wenatchee has a series of Plug in
ports in the back parking lot... in the Tree lined islands.. the have a
50
amp 240 VAC 1450, and 30 amp 120 and a pair of 15 amp 120s all in a cute
little Gray box..there are 4 of them. I suppose this is for Rv and motor
homes that need to stay for a convention. But.. in the parking lot it's
one
of the best EV plug in centers that I have seen.
They could use a little sprucing up....They look long forgotten.. I can
tell
you that the Green Machine and the White Bird Drank happily off them what
at
the AVI summit.
I suggest that you install this kind of Charge port .
The new building at the Wenatchee Valley college also has or will have
many
15 amp 120 VAC outlets for light EVs and scooters and a couple of 30 amp
240s.
If you know where to look behind the Auto center shops is a 50 amp 240
1450.. specifically for charging White Bird and other Plug in EVs.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: Charging Stations
Sort of a general set of questions for the collective:
At the university where I teach -- Thompson Rivers
University in Kamloops, BC -- our Environmental
Sustainability Committee is tackling some issues
like recycling, xeriscape and sustainable energy.
One of the topics I've injected into the
conversation is the idea of providing charging
stations on campus for people who use EVs.
We have a local dealer for some brand of little
electric scooter who sells a fair number of them
to people who ride them to campus, and there
is interest in the community for various kinds of
EVs from purpose-built to conversions.
Since I live 40 km from campus, one of my criteria
for using an EV is having access to electrons.
Off the top of my head, I think having outlets
available for both 220 and 110 would be ideal.
I'm not sure of the details, but having charging
drops installed at the bases of the lights in the
parking lots sounds fairly logical. We have an
electrical trades program on campus that would
no doubt get involved to do wiring, and other
trades that could be asked to build station
infrastructure.
Questions:
1. If 220 is in place (at the lamp posts, say), is
it useful to have both 220 and 110 available, or
do most onboard chargers simply need 110?
2. What current capacity per vehicle? The onboard
charger for the S-10 conversion (CanEV) that I'm
looking at needs a 15A circuit.
3. How to pay for power? I can see that at some
point there would be enough people charging to
noticeably affect the university's hydro bill. What
kinds of options are other people using -- pay a
flat rate of a few dollars per month based on usage,
incorporate a metering device?
I can see being able to pull into a parking space,
unreel my 110 cord, and stick a toonie in the meter
to give me six hours of charge or so. That might
be problematic if I used the vehicle during the day
to run errands or go to lunch and couldn't get the
same spot when I returned, so I could also see
either a flat yearly fee or a monthly payroll deduction
to pay for charging.
Or, being a professor, I suppose I could install a
wind turbine on the front of my lectern and charge
my EV while boring my students to tears. :)=)}
What kinds of charging stations are installed at other
places -- or are we really breaking new ground here?
Chuck
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Hotmail, with safety bar colour coding, helps identify
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn,
Sit still for a second. How can I catch you if you're jumping all over the
place. Are you going to step down to my level for a heads up match at DC?
Wheelie bars got completed last night. If they work as good as they look,
you're in trouble. Heck, even bring on two strings of hawkers.
I'll shoot for my pack being a toasty 120degreesF, but I usually don't have
time to get it that high. It seems to take a while for them to warm evenly.
See you 6am before the big race and I can show you the rest of my tricks.
Heck, some might even work.
Darin
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 8:48 PM
Subject: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
On what was supposed to be a nice sunny day in Thompson Ohio The Lawless
Industries AGNS bike and crew were looking for 4-5 good runs and a shot at
both the NEDRA 144 volt motorcycle record and the 100 MPH club. Well
unexpected rain put a damper on the fire but not until 2 runs were in the
books. Run # 1 flashed on the board as a 12.92 @ 102 MPH. AGNS is in the
club! An hr. later we got a chance to back it up. Run #2 showed the 12
old Hawkers were starting to come alive. 12.67 @ 106 MPH. I believe that
since these are more than 1% apart that the slower time of 12.92 will
stand as the new NEDRA record. We started having visions of the 11's and
110+. We saw the rain coming but since the batteries were getting into
their temperature comfort zone we went ahead and charged ole AGNS till she
couldn't take any more. It wasn't meant to be. The rain came and we
departed for a victory dinner, leaving behind a whole group of folks
scratching their heads over how a silent little minibike can stay darn
near a tricked up Hayabusa for half a track and keeps gets quicker and
quicker every single run. Next stop 125 MPH Club. I cannot explain how
much darn fun this little bike has become.
Dear Mr. Rudman, per your comments of a few days ago... AGNS will be at
the track on Wednesday with sights on the 168 volt record of 12.49 @ 100
MPH. Prepare to eat your hat.
Shawn Lawless
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't believe a contactor controller can be much efficient than PWM. Yes,
at full throttle, the loss is less, but most of the time we are pushing less
than full. Also, just getting up to full throttle is a problem, as it will
be less smooth, and we have more resistive losses to deal with the higher
inrush currents.
Dumping a motor to full on through a contactor causes more heating in the
batteries, cables, and motor windings. If you use a resistor to soften the
start, then that's obvious loss!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
Frank John wrote:
Would a contactor controller be more efficient with a PM motor
because you can directly control motor voltage? Wouldn't a regular
PWM controller do this automatically?
A contactor controller can be more efficient than a PWM controller; but
the improvemement is slight. To get a few percent improvement in
efficiency, you give up smooth stepless control.
Here are typical voltage drops for the different kinds of switches you can
use for a controller:
0.025v connector, terminal, etc.
0.05v switch, contactor, fuse, etc.
0.5v schottky diode, MOSFET transistor
1v silicon diode, bipolar transistor
1.5v SCR, darlington transistor
3v IGBT transistor
For example, a CitiCar contactor controller has 3 contactors in series for
any given speed step, plus about 10 connections; (0.05 x 3) + (10 x
0.025v) = 0.4v. It has a 48v pack, so the efficiency is about
(48v-0.4v)/48v = 99%.
A Curtis PWM controller has a MOSFET and a diode; 0.5v + 1v = 1.5v. For a
PWM controller, double this voltage drop to account for switching losses;
1.5v x 2 = 3v. In a 48v Citicar, efficiency is about (48v-3v)/48v = 94%.
A 4-quadrant reversing/regen controller with an IGBT would have 1 IGBT and
1 diode in series; (3v + 1v) x 2 = 8v drop, and an efficiency of
(48v-8v)/48v = 83%. Now you see why we don't use IGBTs in low voltage
controllers.
As pack voltage goes up, controller losses become a smaller part of the
total. The IGBT controller with a 400v pack is (300v-8v)/300v = 97%
efficient. Now you know why IGBT controllers are usually built for high
voltage packs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
