EV Digest 6797
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Semi-electronic controllers?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Speaking of battery announcements ... What about Firefly
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charging Stations
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) RE: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Charging Stations
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) This Tuesday, May 22, meeting of the Denver (Colorado) Electric
Vehicle Council
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Charging Stations
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Stock rims vs. aftermarket; also slotted rotors?
by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) busy shop
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Semi-electronic controllers?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) a not too successful test run
by steve ollerton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electropolitan smokes tire, misses record
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Also, all Curtis controllers I've looked at, don't have diodes in the path,
just the MOSFETs. MOSFETs typically don't have a .5v loss! The Diodes
are the freewheeling diodes, and not in the battery to motor forward current
path.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Reality check, Re: Permanent magnet motor question
Frank John wrote:
Would a contactor controller be more efficient with a PM motor
because you can directly control motor voltage? Wouldn't a regular
PWM controller do this automatically?
A contactor controller can be more efficient than a PWM controller; but
the improvemement is slight. To get a few percent improvement in
efficiency, you give up smooth stepless control.
Here are typical voltage drops for the different kinds of switches you can
use for a controller:
0.025v connector, terminal, etc.
0.05v switch, contactor, fuse, etc.
0.5v schottky diode, MOSFET transistor
1v silicon diode, bipolar transistor
1.5v SCR, darlington transistor
3v IGBT transistor
For example, a CitiCar contactor controller has 3 contactors in series for
any given speed step, plus about 10 connections; (0.05 x 3) + (10 x
0.025v) = 0.4v. It has a 48v pack, so the efficiency is about
(48v-0.4v)/48v = 99%.
A Curtis PWM controller has a MOSFET and a diode; 0.5v + 1v = 1.5v. For a
PWM controller, double this voltage drop to account for switching losses;
1.5v x 2 = 3v. In a 48v Citicar, efficiency is about (48v-3v)/48v = 94%.
A 4-quadrant reversing/regen controller with an IGBT would have 1 IGBT and
1 diode in series; (3v + 1v) x 2 = 8v drop, and an efficiency of
(48v-8v)/48v = 83%. Now you see why we don't use IGBTs in low voltage
controllers.
As pack voltage goes up, controller losses become a smaller part of the
total. The IGBT controller with a 400v pack is (300v-8v)/300v = 97%
efficient. Now you know why IGBT controllers are usually built for high
voltage packs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also disagree, MOSFETs can be used on high power, just not efficiently at
high voltage. To get a high breakdown MOSFET, you are looking at higher on
resistance, so much so, that it begins to approach the loss you'd see in a
IGBT design. Typically it makes more sense to use IGBTs for high VOLTAGE
and MOSFETs for lower. Power has nothing to do with it. You just want more
of each for more amps!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: Semi-electronic controllers?
Tom Gocze wrote:
How about a contactor/rectactor type controller that used some form of
electronic switching, not PWM, but just an electronic on off switch?
Sure; this has been done. Many controllers are hybrids; they have a PWM
controller, plus contactors for on/off and forward/reverse switching.
Very high power motor controllers use IGBTs or SCRs for their switches,
but wire them to switch the motor and/or supply voltage into various
series/parallel combinations much as you would a contactor controller.
Seems like most of the distress that people have with contactor
controllers is the noise.
Of course, switches and contactors don't have to make any noise. There are
lots of silent ones. Mercury switches, rotary switches, knife switches,
and slide switches are pretty quiet. But for most applications, customers
don't care if it makes noise, and "clack/clunk" based contactors are
cheaper; so that's what gets sold.
Or as Jerry Dycus said, you can put them in a soundproof box.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What hat?
Madman
Boy you sure have time and bucks to go racing all of a sudden.
> Dear Mr. Rudman, per your comments of a few days ago... AGNS will be at
> the track on Wednesday with sights on the 168 volt record of 12.49 @
> 100 MPH. Prepare to eat your hat.
>
> Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a lot of hype on those batteries also. They
say 2 years out on their website. But, Crown (think
Crown fork lift trucks) will be making some. I wonder
if there is any way we can get some. Maybe buy a big
forklift battery and dismantle it to get the battery
modules out ... Maybe, just maybe, we can FINALLY get
our hands on some decent batteries without spending
$15-20k per pack.
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________Building
a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to
get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually it's about the same to install a 20 amp 240.. the recpeticals are
very much the same.
I don't have 8 hours to wait for... I have as little time as it takes.
50 amps of 240 is the BEST we can get... It's nice to have one around with a
field for 120-15s
For the big guys and for the fast movers.
Your math is good.. always is.. But I find the 15 amps of 120 is a massive
waste of my time.
You basicly limit your Plug in to paltry improvments in miles a day on the
grid.
Why limit??
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Charging Stations
> Let's look at it this way, the cost of putting in 20a 120v is far less
than
> 240v of any amperage. In order to convince more EV charge stations to be
> put in by employers and municipalities, it's a trade-off that has merit.
>
> Personally, for a work parking lot, I'd rather have 2 spaces with 120v/20a
> than one 240v/50a.
>
> If my employer said no to 240v/50a, then I'd then ask for 120v/20a.
Harder
> to say no to. Hell, might even already have one or 2 of those wired up
> already!
>
> When you park at work, you are there all day, for 5 days in a row. Many
> EV'ers get an EV specifically just to do the work commute every weekday,
so
> if you can have free charging at work, then it's an awesome incentive for
> more of us to go EV! With $4/gal the commute is going to get pricey!
>
> If you skip the lunch break, that's 8 hours! 19.2kwh is substantial when
> it's free!
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Charging Stations
>
>
> > Bigger is better.
> >
> > Almost everybody can use 15 amps of 120.
> >
> > But Want to fill your SUV through a straw???
> >
> > Big guys want 50 amps of 240. It's as big as we can find in the normal
> > house
> > hold.
> > It's a standard for RV and Welder outlets. It's as old as Dirt.
> >
> > So.. You HAVE to have 15 amps of 120. 30 amps of 240 is a nice jump and
50
> > amps of 240 is a Dream.
> >
> > Infrastructure... I gave a talk about it at the AVI summit in Wenatchee
> > Tuesday morning.
> >
> > Anyone that really wants to get some oil off the market and get some
miles
> > on the grid.. will need a lot more than 1800 watts. Nice for toys and
> > show
> > off Plug ins. But to really be useful more than once a day.. you need 30
> > Plus amps of 240. 6 to 8 hour charge cycles are almost useless.. Except
> > for
> > those perfect Hollywood EV runs..
> >
> > The plug in Dogma is 15 amps and 120VAC "Normal" house hold current.
That
> > limits your return on your EV/Plug in investment to maybe twice a day.
If
> > you are lucky. This is just not enough to make much difference in your
> > miles
> > traveled to your cost of fuel. You get to "Save" a half gallon of
Gasoline
> > a
> > day...that's it....Spend 80 cents to save $1.75 cents of fuel.
> >
> > I run about 5 to 10 short cycles a day on the Green Car Co's Green
> > machine
> > that is equipped with my PiPrius kit.. Drive charge Drive.! This tank
> > of
> > Gas has been over Stevens pass, and back ...4061 Ft pass in the
Cascades..
> > at 65 miles a hour and the tank average is 59.1 mpg.. The average while
I
> > was running East bound was at 47.5 MPG, I used a full charge going West
> > bound... ran out about 1/2 mile from the summit but clocked a 52.5 mpg
> > average.. while I still had charge support. Since then.. I am back to
> > errand
> > running mode and the Tank Average is climbing still. But I am about to
run
> > out. I hope to log 60 Mpg as a tank average, With a serious mountain
pass
> > between Full and Empty.
> > For some reason the Prius can only take on about 6.4 gallons of gas..
> > there
> > is some issue with the in tank Bladder... I was hoping to have a 1000
mile
> > tank of gas to brag about.. no dice....
> > Yet! I got 8.4 gallons in the last fill up and the dash was blinking
> > "Danger
> > low fuel", I don't like walking away from a customer's car with a empty
> > gas
> > can... Kinda bad Jue Jue...
> >
> >
> > I don't know how many charge events I have used on this tank it's up in
> > the
> > 3 to 4 Dozen. Supporting the Lead Acid Mantra.. "If it's not moving
it's
> > plugged in". I bet I have better than 100 cycles of every sort from
long
> > strokes to 1/2 Kw runs to the shop.
> >
> > Point here is.. with 30s amp of 240... you can get many miles of support
a
> > day.. and you are getting many more miles off the oil tap.. and many
more
> > from the grid.
> > Put simply 30 amps of 240 is 4 times the tool 15a of 120v is, and 50a
of
> > 240 is 6.67 times the force multiplier. You get more for the same
> > hardware.
> >
> > The Bigger the better. The more the merrier.
> >
> > Bill.. any one have real cycle life numbers of a A123 pack doing Plug
in
> > Hybrid service?
> > 10,000 cycles with little or no issues from the pack?
> > I sure hope they work this good.. It's what we are being sold and
expect.
> >
> > But in the mean time.. I am getting 100s of cycle from Lead Acid.. at a
> > cost
> > of $180 a kilowatt hour. And this is in about a 2 week's time.
> >
> > We will get 1000s of real cycles from Lead.... We expect 10 times that
for
> > Lions...
> > But Lion comes at $2000 a Kwhr... More than that if you use the best
there
> > is and that's A123.
> >
> > All the Lion powered Plug in PHEVs I know of have 1800 watt chargers..
and
> > this severely limits the usefulness of the idea.
> >
> > The Chelan county convention center in Wenatchee has a series of Plug in
> > ports in the back parking lot... in the Tree lined islands.. the have a
> > 50
> > amp 240 VAC 1450, and 30 amp 120 and a pair of 15 amp 120s all in a cute
> > little Gray box..there are 4 of them. I suppose this is for Rv and motor
> > homes that need to stay for a convention. But.. in the parking lot it's
> > one
> > of the best EV plug in centers that I have seen.
> >
> > They could use a little sprucing up....They look long forgotten.. I can
> > tell
> > you that the Green Machine and the White Bird Drank happily off them
what
> > at
> > the AVI summit.
> >
> > I suggest that you install this kind of Charge port .
> > The new building at the Wenatchee Valley college also has or will have
> > many
> > 15 amp 120 VAC outlets for light EVs and scooters and a couple of 30 amp
> > 240s.
> > If you know where to look behind the Auto center shops is a 50 amp 240
> > 1450.. specifically for charging White Bird and other Plug in EVs.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:53 AM
> > Subject: Charging Stations
> >
> >
> >> Sort of a general set of questions for the collective:
> >>
> >> At the university where I teach -- Thompson Rivers
> >> University in Kamloops, BC -- our Environmental
> >> Sustainability Committee is tackling some issues
> >> like recycling, xeriscape and sustainable energy.
> >>
> >> One of the topics I've injected into the
> >> conversation is the idea of providing charging
> >> stations on campus for people who use EVs.
> >>
> >> We have a local dealer for some brand of little
> >> electric scooter who sells a fair number of them
> >> to people who ride them to campus, and there
> >> is interest in the community for various kinds of
> >> EVs from purpose-built to conversions.
> >>
> >> Since I live 40 km from campus, one of my criteria
> >> for using an EV is having access to electrons.
> >>
> >> Off the top of my head, I think having outlets
> >> available for both 220 and 110 would be ideal.
> >> I'm not sure of the details, but having charging
> >> drops installed at the bases of the lights in the
> >> parking lots sounds fairly logical. We have an
> >> electrical trades program on campus that would
> >> no doubt get involved to do wiring, and other
> >> trades that could be asked to build station
> >> infrastructure.
> >>
> >> Questions:
> >>
> >> 1. If 220 is in place (at the lamp posts, say), is
> >> it useful to have both 220 and 110 available, or
> >> do most onboard chargers simply need 110?
> >>
> >> 2. What current capacity per vehicle? The onboard
> >> charger for the S-10 conversion (CanEV) that I'm
> >> looking at needs a 15A circuit.
> >>
> >> 3. How to pay for power? I can see that at some
> >> point there would be enough people charging to
> >> noticeably affect the university's hydro bill. What
> >> kinds of options are other people using -- pay a
> >> flat rate of a few dollars per month based on usage,
> >> incorporate a metering device?
> >>
> >> I can see being able to pull into a parking space,
> >> unreel my 110 cord, and stick a toonie in the meter
> >> to give me six hours of charge or so. That might
> >> be problematic if I used the vehicle during the day
> >> to run errands or go to lunch and couldn't get the
> >> same spot when I returned, so I could also see
> >> either a flat yearly fee or a monthly payroll deduction
> >> to pay for charging.
> >>
> >> Or, being a professor, I suppose I could install a
> >> wind turbine on the front of my lectern and charge
> >> my EV while boring my students to tears. :)=)}
> >>
> >> What kinds of charging stations are installed at other
> >> places -- or are we really breaking new ground here?
> >>
> >> Chuck
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Windows Live Hotmail, with safety bar colour coding, helps identify
> >> suspicious mail before it takes your daughter out on a date. Upgrade
> >> today
> >> for a better look. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA152
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AGNS Hawker Batteries - Leftovers from OJ2
AGNS Zilla Controller - On loan from Juiced Up
AGNS Perm motors - I can't sell them or use them in my customer's
vehicles in good faith if I don't test then to the limit. (R&D budget).
AGNS Chassis - Scrap steel from around the shop and the front end from
an old KTM 65 dirt bike.
AGNS Rear Wheel & Tire - Leftover spare from OJ2
Spanking an ICE crotch rocket at his own game in the near future -
Priceless !!!
Just call it time well wasted....
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 20 May 2007 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
What hat?
Madman
Boy you sure have time and bucks to go racing all of a sudden.
Dear Mr. Rudman, per your comments of a few days ago... AGNS will be
at
the track on Wednesday with sights on the 168 volt record of 12.49 @
100 MPH. Prepare to eat your hat.
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:10 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
Thanks John,
Those Hawkers do Rock hard. Denis said they were still pulling at 1/4
mile. The numbers back him up. He gained 25 MPH the second 1/8. I
just got in some new v28's but haven't felt the urgency to switch back
to Lithium just yet. AGNS is going to need every one of them in the
future if she is going to breath any harder on the back of Bill's neck.
I'm going to start heating up the bats artificially. What do you
think is the perfect temp for absolute max output?
There is no doubt traditional trains of thought are being challenged
every time we go to the track. In a few short hrs yesterday we had
probably 20-25 folks make the trip over to our setup and inquire or
comment on just how we were going so fast with no noise. Performance
talks. Speaking of that, the attention that Bill has garnered with his
Killacycle is working nationwide. It seems every biker that asks about
our bike has a story about some guy out west running low 8's at 150+.
If they know about it in rural Ohio, they've got to know about it at
almost every track in the country.
I haven't been out that way since my trip to Bob Boyd's 5 years ago.
It's about time for another.
Shawn
Hi Shawn;
If you need a 150 pound driver out in this area, I'm available. I just
passed my FAA flying physical and will be back flying as soon as I get a
biannual flight review. I have been watching your progress up through
the NEDRA ranks with high glee and wish I lived closer to you so I could
hang around the shop with you.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
Hello to All,
Congrats...again, to Shawn!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Run # 1 flashed on the board as a 12.92 @ 102 MPH. AGNS is in the >
club! An hr. later we got a chance to back it up. Run #2 showed the >
12 old Hawkers were starting to come alive. 12.67 @ 106 MPH.
We all know that lithium is the holy grail, but boy those Hawkers sure
do rock!
>From Roy:
>Hey Plasma Boy! Are you listening? This little bike is coming closer
to your MPHs and ETs. (@144V)
Yes, and I couldn't be any happier! The more EVers we have out on the
track blowing minds and changing perceptions, the better!
Shawn, you should load up some of your go-fast EVs and come out West
and play at either the Wayland Invitational III or the NEDRA Nationals
in August!
See Ya....John Wayland
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman writes:
>
> Anyone that really wants to get some oil off the market and get some miles
> on the grid.. will need a lot more than 1800 watts. Nice for toys and show
> off Plug ins. But to really be useful more than once a day.. you need 30
> Plus amps of 240. 6 to 8 hour charge cycles are almost useless.. Except for
> those perfect Hollywood EV runs..
Rich,
I have to disagree here. I've been commuting 35 miles a day during the
week for over a year now (17 miles each way to/from work), recharging
from simple 120v 20amp outlets at home and at work. Even with the charger
turned down to 5-7 amps, the Prizm is fully charged before I leave work
at the end of the day. If I had access to 240v 40 amp outlets, the Prizm
would be recharged faster, but it would be pointless because it would
just be sitting there fully charged for a longer period of time.
Simple 120v outlets would work for most people that just go to work and
stay there for a 'full day'. Granted, there are some people that have
many trips during a day, so they need higher rate charging. But I'd bet
that most people don't have such a busy driving schedule...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Denver Electric Vehicle Council News
Next meeting: Tuesday May 22, 2007
Time: 7:30 PM
DEVC's May meeting will be at HybridsPlus (http://www.hybrids-plus.com) and
hosted by HybridsPlus President Carl Lawrence.
Location: The HybridsPlus office is located at 2845 Valmont Rd. in Boulder.
This meeting will be designed around conversions. We also hope to have NOBO
Motors and Slipstream.
DEVC at the Boulder Creek Festival
We will again have a space at the Boulder Creek Festival. This year our
location will be the same as last year-a very busy corner.
Location: NW Corner of Arapahoe and 13th-downtown Boulder!
Place: Boulder Creek Festival May 26-28, 2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most 120v circuits these days are 20a not 15a. I think there may even be
some verbage in the NEC that precludes 15a branch circuits now.
With a 20a GFCI outlet being about $10 and a 20a single pole breaker being
as cheap as they come for any type of breaker, it's substantially cheaper
just for those components alone. Let alone the copper wire needed for the
feeder!
A 50a outlet (non GFCI) is much more expensive, and the 50a dual-pole GFCI
breaker (required) is very pricey!
Also now for 3 EV parking spaces, you need 6 panel slots. With 120v 20a,
you only need 3.
I'd say the cost of putting in a 240v 50a is about $500 in parts and labor
compared to about $150 for a 120v/20a.
Again, in an ideal world, every parking space on the planet has 50kw of free
power, or better yet screw the EV and just use the matter transporter.
Saves time! =)
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Charging Stations
Actually it's about the same to install a 20 amp 240.. the recpeticals are
very much the same.
I don't have 8 hours to wait for... I have as little time as it takes.
50 amps of 240 is the BEST we can get... It's nice to have one around with
a
field for 120-15s
For the big guys and for the fast movers.
Your math is good.. always is.. But I find the 15 amps of 120 is a massive
waste of my time.
You basicly limit your Plug in to paltry improvments in miles a day on
the
grid.
Why limit??
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Charging Stations
Let's look at it this way, the cost of putting in 20a 120v is far less
than
240v of any amperage. In order to convince more EV charge stations to be
put in by employers and municipalities, it's a trade-off that has merit.
Personally, for a work parking lot, I'd rather have 2 spaces with
120v/20a
than one 240v/50a.
If my employer said no to 240v/50a, then I'd then ask for 120v/20a.
Harder
to say no to. Hell, might even already have one or 2 of those wired up
already!
When you park at work, you are there all day, for 5 days in a row. Many
EV'ers get an EV specifically just to do the work commute every weekday,
so
if you can have free charging at work, then it's an awesome incentive for
more of us to go EV! With $4/gal the commute is going to get pricey!
If you skip the lunch break, that's 8 hours! 19.2kwh is substantial
when
it's free!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Charging Stations
> Bigger is better.
>
> Almost everybody can use 15 amps of 120.
>
> But Want to fill your SUV through a straw???
>
> Big guys want 50 amps of 240. It's as big as we can find in the normal
> house
> hold.
> It's a standard for RV and Welder outlets. It's as old as Dirt.
>
> So.. You HAVE to have 15 amps of 120. 30 amps of 240 is a nice jump and
50
> amps of 240 is a Dream.
>
> Infrastructure... I gave a talk about it at the AVI summit in Wenatchee
> Tuesday morning.
>
> Anyone that really wants to get some oil off the market and get some
miles
> on the grid.. will need a lot more than 1800 watts. Nice for toys and
> show
> off Plug ins. But to really be useful more than once a day.. you need
> 30
> Plus amps of 240. 6 to 8 hour charge cycles are almost useless.. Except
> for
> those perfect Hollywood EV runs..
>
> The plug in Dogma is 15 amps and 120VAC "Normal" house hold current.
That
> limits your return on your EV/Plug in investment to maybe twice a day.
If
> you are lucky. This is just not enough to make much difference in your
> miles
> traveled to your cost of fuel. You get to "Save" a half gallon of
Gasoline
> a
> day...that's it....Spend 80 cents to save $1.75 cents of fuel.
>
> I run about 5 to 10 short cycles a day on the Green Car Co's Green
> machine
> that is equipped with my PiPrius kit.. Drive charge Drive.! This
> tank
> of
> Gas has been over Stevens pass, and back ...4061 Ft pass in the
Cascades..
> at 65 miles a hour and the tank average is 59.1 mpg.. The average while
I
> was running East bound was at 47.5 MPG, I used a full charge going
> West
> bound... ran out about 1/2 mile from the summit but clocked a 52.5 mpg
> average.. while I still had charge support. Since then.. I am back to
> errand
> running mode and the Tank Average is climbing still. But I am about to
run
> out. I hope to log 60 Mpg as a tank average, With a serious mountain
pass
> between Full and Empty.
> For some reason the Prius can only take on about 6.4 gallons of gas..
> there
> is some issue with the in tank Bladder... I was hoping to have a 1000
mile
> tank of gas to brag about.. no dice....
> Yet! I got 8.4 gallons in the last fill up and the dash was blinking
> "Danger
> low fuel", I don't like walking away from a customer's car with a empty
> gas
> can... Kinda bad Jue Jue...
>
>
> I don't know how many charge events I have used on this tank it's up
> in
> the
> 3 to 4 Dozen. Supporting the Lead Acid Mantra.. "If it's not moving
it's
> plugged in". I bet I have better than 100 cycles of every sort from
long
> strokes to 1/2 Kw runs to the shop.
>
> Point here is.. with 30s amp of 240... you can get many miles of
> support
a
> day.. and you are getting many more miles off the oil tap.. and many
more
> from the grid.
> Put simply 30 amps of 240 is 4 times the tool 15a of 120v is, and 50a
of
> 240 is 6.67 times the force multiplier. You get more for the same
> hardware.
>
> The Bigger the better. The more the merrier.
>
> Bill.. any one have real cycle life numbers of a A123 pack doing Plug
in
> Hybrid service?
> 10,000 cycles with little or no issues from the pack?
> I sure hope they work this good.. It's what we are being sold and
expect.
>
> But in the mean time.. I am getting 100s of cycle from Lead Acid.. at a
> cost
> of $180 a kilowatt hour. And this is in about a 2 week's time.
>
> We will get 1000s of real cycles from Lead.... We expect 10 times that
for
> Lions...
> But Lion comes at $2000 a Kwhr... More than that if you use the best
there
> is and that's A123.
>
> All the Lion powered Plug in PHEVs I know of have 1800 watt chargers..
and
> this severely limits the usefulness of the idea.
>
> The Chelan county convention center in Wenatchee has a series of Plug
> in
> ports in the back parking lot... in the Tree lined islands.. the have
> a
> 50
> amp 240 VAC 1450, and 30 amp 120 and a pair of 15 amp 120s all in a
> cute
> little Gray box..there are 4 of them. I suppose this is for Rv and
> motor
> homes that need to stay for a convention. But.. in the parking lot it's
> one
> of the best EV plug in centers that I have seen.
>
> They could use a little sprucing up....They look long forgotten.. I can
> tell
> you that the Green Machine and the White Bird Drank happily off them
what
> at
> the AVI summit.
>
> I suggest that you install this kind of Charge port .
> The new building at the Wenatchee Valley college also has or will have
> many
> 15 amp 120 VAC outlets for light EVs and scooters and a couple of 30
> amp
> 240s.
> If you know where to look behind the Auto center shops is a 50 amp 240
> 1450.. specifically for charging White Bird and other Plug in EVs.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:53 AM
> Subject: Charging Stations
>
>
>> Sort of a general set of questions for the collective:
>>
>> At the university where I teach -- Thompson Rivers
>> University in Kamloops, BC -- our Environmental
>> Sustainability Committee is tackling some issues
>> like recycling, xeriscape and sustainable energy.
>>
>> One of the topics I've injected into the
>> conversation is the idea of providing charging
>> stations on campus for people who use EVs.
>>
>> We have a local dealer for some brand of little
>> electric scooter who sells a fair number of them
>> to people who ride them to campus, and there
>> is interest in the community for various kinds of
>> EVs from purpose-built to conversions.
>>
>> Since I live 40 km from campus, one of my criteria
>> for using an EV is having access to electrons.
>>
>> Off the top of my head, I think having outlets
>> available for both 220 and 110 would be ideal.
>> I'm not sure of the details, but having charging
>> drops installed at the bases of the lights in the
>> parking lots sounds fairly logical. We have an
>> electrical trades program on campus that would
>> no doubt get involved to do wiring, and other
>> trades that could be asked to build station
>> infrastructure.
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> 1. If 220 is in place (at the lamp posts, say), is
>> it useful to have both 220 and 110 available, or
>> do most onboard chargers simply need 110?
>>
>> 2. What current capacity per vehicle? The onboard
>> charger for the S-10 conversion (CanEV) that I'm
>> looking at needs a 15A circuit.
>>
>> 3. How to pay for power? I can see that at some
>> point there would be enough people charging to
>> noticeably affect the university's hydro bill. What
>> kinds of options are other people using -- pay a
>> flat rate of a few dollars per month based on usage,
>> incorporate a metering device?
>>
>> I can see being able to pull into a parking space,
>> unreel my 110 cord, and stick a toonie in the meter
>> to give me six hours of charge or so. That might
>> be problematic if I used the vehicle during the day
>> to run errands or go to lunch and couldn't get the
>> same spot when I returned, so I could also see
>> either a flat yearly fee or a monthly payroll deduction
>> to pay for charging.
>>
>> Or, being a professor, I suppose I could install a
>> wind turbine on the front of my lectern and charge
>> my EV while boring my students to tears. :)=)}
>>
>> What kinds of charging stations are installed at other
>> places -- or are we really breaking new ground here?
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Windows Live Hotmail, with safety bar colour coding, helps identify
>> suspicious mail before it takes your daughter out on a date. Upgrade
>> today
>> for a better look. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA152
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mr Boyd,
You are welcome to race my vehicles any time. Anyone who can buzz a
beach at 50 ft and 300 MPH + can certainly handle anything I build.
I'll get my medical current and we'll go do some flying. Is that
fabulous Hudson Hornet still out there?
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 20 May 2007 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:10 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
Thanks John,
Those Hawkers do Rock hard. Denis said they were still pulling at 1/4
mile. The numbers back him up. He gained 25 MPH the second 1/8. I
just got in some new v28's but haven't felt the urgency to switch back
to Lithium just yet. AGNS is going to need every one of them in the
future if she is going to breath any harder on the back of Bill's neck.
I'm going to start heating up the bats artificially. What do you
think is the perfect temp for absolute max output?
There is no doubt traditional trains of thought are being challenged
every time we go to the track. In a few short hrs yesterday we had
probably 20-25 folks make the trip over to our setup and inquire or
comment on just how we were going so fast with no noise. Performance
talks. Speaking of that, the attention that Bill has garnered with his
Killacycle is working nationwide. It seems every biker that asks about
our bike has a story about some guy out west running low 8's at 150+.
If they know about it in rural Ohio, they've got to know about it at
almost every track in the country.
I haven't been out that way since my trip to Bob Boyd's 5 years ago.
It's about time for another.
Shawn
Hi Shawn;
If you need a 150 pound driver out in this area, I'm available. I just
passed my FAA flying physical and will be back flying as soon as I get a
biannual flight review. I have been watching your progress up through
the NEDRA ranks with high glee and wish I lived closer to you so I could
hang around the shop with you.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: AGNS Joins 100 MPH Club-Sets New NEDRA record
Hello to All,
Congrats...again, to Shawn!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Run # 1 flashed on the board as a 12.92 @ 102 MPH. AGNS is in the >
club! An hr. later we got a chance to back it up. Run #2 showed the >
12 old Hawkers were starting to come alive. 12.67 @ 106 MPH.
We all know that lithium is the holy grail, but boy those Hawkers sure
do rock!
From Roy:
Hey Plasma Boy! Are you listening? This little bike is coming closer
to your MPHs and ETs. (@144V)
Yes, and I couldn't be any happier! The more EVers we have out on the
track blowing minds and changing perceptions, the better!
Shawn, you should load up some of your go-fast EVs and come out West
and play at either the Wayland Invitational III or the NEDRA Nationals
in August!
See Ya....John Wayland
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What larger alloy rims will allow you to do is put bigger breaks on
the car. The civic is a pretty easy car to increase the breaking
power of.
Check out www.fastbrakes.com
I got a couple kits from them. I currently have 11" rotors on the
front of my CRX using the calipers from my integra GSR. My integra
has the calipers from an Accord V6 (or integra type-R).
I'm going to hopefully be removing the brake booster on the CRX so
that I can do away with the vacuum pump.
-Jeremy
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--- Begin Message ---
> How about a contactor/rectactor type controller that used some form
> of electronic switching, not PWM, but just an electronic on off switch?
But that is all that a PWM controller IS, just a big on/off switch. It
just varies the ammount of time on vs off to controll the speed.
> I am not knowledgeable about solid state switches nor scrs, but is
> there not a solid state version that would do this quietly?
>
> Seems like most of the distress that people have with contactor
> controllers is the noise. I, for one, like the lurch that you get on
> that last hit into "high" voltage.
> I have had great results using resistors for that slow speed running,
> and think that a three level control would minimize the time that one
> ran with a resistor
> for those of you who don't need the heat! (Snowed in parts of Maine
> last night!!!)
>
> Hope to get more stuff on the Contactor Controller page this weekend.
>
> Tom in Maine
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks
Just had an interesting evening testing my electric mini. We took it for
its longest test run to date.
I have a twin Lynch motor running through a Reliant diff (rear wheel
drive.) 128Volt Li ion batts with Lynch protectors. Curtis 1281C controller.
All seemed to be going well until we noticed a spark or 2 under the car
after about 2 miles driving. The motor has a thermocouple attached which
was reading 50C so we carried on. The motor is mounted under the car.
After another mile or so there was a very horrible mincing sound and we
decided to stop. There was lots of smoke too!!
Looking back on the road there were lots of little metal pieces and I
feared the worst. Interestingly the motor was still running but making a
horrible noise.
We towed it back to base and removed the motor. The rear half of the
motor is completely screwed. It appears all these little pieces of metal
have come from it. All the fins look chewed up. The front half looks OK
and possibly explains why the motor was still working.
Any ideas what may have happened? Have I cooked half my motor? May
there have been some problem with it.
Other info that may be useful. This car has only ever done short runs of
less than a mile before. This was by far its longest run. We have never
had any problem with the motor before - always been OK on short runs.
What do I do now? - apart from speak to Lynch motor co. of course. Any
help appreciated.
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
I think you can do a posi, but not a spool.
If you have ever attempted to drive a car with a spool on the street,
it is obvious that a spool is essentially "unstreetable." They
sometimes simply refuse to turn a corner. Thus, they are not allowed
in the street class. This makes sense if you think about it.
You can't change the rear end housing because the big emphasis in the
new rules for the SC class is on the appearance of the car. Thus, you
must find a posi that will fit inside the stock housing.
Of course, this is just the opinion of a fellow racer with absolutely
no bearing on what the official ruling(s) will be.
Bill Dube'
At 07:05 PM 5/19/2007, you wrote:
Flying the EV flag together with AGNS at Thompson raceway today the
Electropolitan managed to squeeze in 2 runs before the rain came.
New NEDRA member Lori Lawless drove both runs with the new lighter
car with hopes of regaining the 96 volt SC NEDRA record (13.00
secs). It didn't happen. On run # 1 the green light came on, and
as I watched from the driver's side the car just sat there. I
thought something had broke until I saw the blue smoke rolling out
from the right rear wheelwell. After a couple of seconds the tire
finally bit and she was on her way to a 14.2 in the 1/8th. On run 2
I dropped the air pressure and decided that I would ride along as a
passenger to help weight the right side. It helped but not enough
as we sat smoking tire (not tires) on the line and finally got
rolling to a 13.76 in the 1/8th. I really wanted to bump the
voltage to 192 and take one more run to see what that big motor
would do with some real voltage but the rain came.
It doesn't look like the SC rules allow us to do much to the rear
end like a posi or spool but the least we can do is some new tires
for Power of DC. What a shame to have that kind of torque and
nowhere to put it.
Shawn Lawless
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--- Begin Message ---
Great going!
Getting the batteries up to temperature and keeping them at the right
temperature turned out to be a serious headache for the KillaCycle,
so I can relate. The primary motivation for building a new pack was
to install heaters to heat the pack and hold it at the optimal
temperature while we twiddled our thumbs waiting for the next run
down the track. (Thanks Steve Wilson for the heaters, by the way.)
It is fun to see you boost the voltage and as a direct result, boost
the performance.
What sort of 60 ft times are you getting? Are you using series/parallel?
Again, fantastic job!
Bill Dube'
At 05:48 PM 5/19/2007, you wrote:
On what was supposed to be a nice sunny day in Thompson Ohio The
Lawless Industries AGNS bike and crew were looking for 4-5 good runs
and a shot at both the NEDRA 144 volt motorcycle record and the 100
MPH club. Well unexpected rain put a damper on the fire but not
until 2 runs were in the books. Run # 1 flashed on the board as a
12.92 @ 102 MPH. AGNS is in the club! An hr. later we got a chance
to back it up. Run #2 showed the 12 old Hawkers were starting to
come alive. 12.67 @ 106 MPH. I believe that since these are more
than 1% apart that the slower time of 12.92 will stand as the new
NEDRA record. We started having visions of the 11's and 110+. We
saw the rain coming but since the batteries were getting into their
temperature comfort zone we went ahead and charged ole AGNS till she
couldn't take any more. It wasn't meant to be. The rain came and we
departed for a victory dinner, leaving behind a whole group of folks
scratching their heads over how a silent little minibike can stay
darn near a tricked up Hayabusa for half a track and keeps gets
quicker and quicker every single run. Next stop 125 MPH Club. I
cannot explain how much darn fun this little bike has become.
Dear Mr. Rudman, per your comments of a few days ago... AGNS will be
at the track on Wednesday with sights on the 168 volt record of
12.49 @ 100 MPH. Prepare to eat your hat.
Shawn Lawless
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