EV Digest 6801
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: desulfating.... 2 at a time?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Traction and torque question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: desulfating.... 2 at a time?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Traction and torque question
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Big Ideas For A Small Planet
by Lowell Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Traction and torque question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 7 /11 motors both at my shop
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Low cost battery materials
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Low cost battery materials
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Big Ideas For a Small Planet
by Lowell Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Low cost battery materials
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Low cost battery materials
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Low cost battery materials
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Low cost battery materials
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: electric mower - corded or battery
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: electric mower - corded or battery
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Speaking of battery announcements ... What about Firefly
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sulfur builds up on floodies, if they aren't kept topped off with a
charge. The longer they sit (in a discharged state) - apparently
the sulfur acts like a fungus and 'grows' (crystalizes?) into the
plates.
This explanation is pretty far off base.
When you charge a lead-acid battery, lead sulfate in the plates gets
converted to lead oxide in the plates, and sulfuric acid in the liquid
electrolyte.
When you discharge it, the sulfuric acid leaves the liquid electrolyte
and converts the lead oxide to lead sulfate in the plates. This
"sulfation" is perfectly normal and necessary.
But if the lead sulfate sits around for a long time, or you make too
much of it by deeply discharging the battery, it gradually changes from
many small crystals to a few large ones. This makes it more difficult to
convert it all back into lead oxide and sulfuric acid. Typically, some
of the lead sulfate falls off the plates and winds up as sludge in the
bottom of the battery.
Battery "desulfators" are right in there with snake oil and magnetic
bracelets and other junk science cures. They don't do anything that
proper charging and maintenance won't do.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Does anyone know how to calculate (or estimate) the torque on
a wheel [axle] required to loose traction?
There are many variables (rubber quality, pavement type and
roughness, etc) but in general if I know the weight on that
wheel, how do I know if I'm going to loose traction?
I have selection of the motors including too powerful ones
and trying to avoid picking one which I can't take advantage of.
So I want to choose most powerful to be on the edge of loosing
traction (at low RPMs when it's still torque limited), but no
more powerful than that.
Any tips? Like will 200 ft/lb on a wheel with standard all
season thread of 195/70 R15 tire size break it on a dry
asphalt? 500 ft/lb?
Thanks,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If flooded batteries have built up enough sulphate on the plates, will it cause
it not to come up to its normal charge voltage? I
have been typically equalizing once a month but when this last equaliza came
due the pack never reached its regulation voltage.
All the batteries averaged pretty close to a 7.02V but would not go over. Now
it seems like the max voltage they get up to is
slowly going down. How can I get them back up to an equalize voltage?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 2:21 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: desulfating.... 2 at a time?
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Sulfur builds up on floodies, if they aren't kept topped off with a
> > charge. The longer they sit (in a discharged state) - apparently
> > the sulfur acts like a fungus and 'grows' (crystalizes?) into the
> > plates.
>
> This explanation is pretty far off base.
>
> When you charge a lead-acid battery, lead sulfate in the plates gets
> converted to lead oxide in the plates, and sulfuric acid in the liquid
> electrolyte.
>
> When you discharge it, the sulfuric acid leaves the liquid electrolyte
> and converts the lead oxide to lead sulfate in the plates. This
> "sulfation" is perfectly normal and necessary.
>
> But if the lead sulfate sits around for a long time, or you make too
> much of it by deeply discharging the battery, it gradually changes from
> many small crystals to a few large ones. This makes it more difficult to
> convert it all back into lead oxide and sulfuric acid. Typically, some
> of the lead sulfate falls off the plates and winds up as sludge in the
> bottom of the battery.
>
> Battery "desulfators" are right in there with snake oil and magnetic
> bracelets and other junk science cures. They don't do anything that
> proper charging and maintenance won't do.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
F = umg, a = ug, u ~ 1.0 (coefficient of friction)
My car weighs about 3600 lbs with me in it, and accelerates at 0.7 g with
really good tires and a brushed concrete surface. The force the tires had to
provide is 0.7 * 3600 lbs ~= 2500 lbs.
Since the tires are about 24 inches tall, the radius is 1 foot, so that is
about 2500 ft*lbs of torque the rear axle needs to provide.
Now let's work it the other way. The motor has about 300 ft*lbs of torque. 1st
gear and the rearend have an overall ratio of 10:1. 10*300 ft*lbs = 3000 ft*lbs
of rear axle torque, but minus about 15% driveline loss gives ~2500 ft.*lbs of
rear axle torque.
If you run a race tire, your coefficient of friction can go as high as about u
~ 1.5, so you want about 1.5 times the torque of the above case.
Remember, too, if you get bit by the racing bug there are tricks you can do to
greatly improve your traction, so you may want some more headroom than the
minimum you calculate (i.e. go for the bigger motor!).
----- Original Message ----
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 6:04:48 PM
Subject: Traction and torque question
Does anyone know how to calculate (or estimate) the torque on
a wheel [axle] required to loose traction?
There are many variables (rubber quality, pavement type and
roughness, etc) but in general if I know the weight on that
wheel, how do I know if I'm going to loose traction?
I have selection of the motors including too powerful ones
and trying to avoid picking one which I can't take advantage of.
So I want to choose most powerful to be on the edge of loosing
traction (at low RPMs when it's still torque limited), but no
more powerful than that.
Any tips? Like will 200 ft/lb on a wheel with standard all
season thread of 195/70 R15 tire size break it on a dry
asphalt? 500 ft/lb?
____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo!
oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
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--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor
To get a rough idea, you can start with a coefficient of friction of 1.0 (to
break the tire loose).
Torque at breakaway ( in ft-lbs) = vertical tire load ( lbs) X
coefficient of friction X tire radius ( ft)
With your particular tire the diameter is about 26 inches, so the radius is
about 1.1 feet. So,for example, if you had 1000 of load on a given tire,
the torque needed would be:
T = 1000 lbs X 1.0 X 1.1 ft = 1100 ft-lbs ( This is torque at the wheel
for EACH wheel)
For the axle torque, use the sum of the loads on both tires. Then divide by
the drive ration to get the motor torque required.
So, if your rear axle load was 2000 lbs, and your final drive ratio ( in
first gear) was 15:1, you would need:
T = 2000 lbs X 1.0 X 1.1 ft / 15 = 147 ft-lbs
This does not account for the rearward weight shift during acceleration,
which would increase the required torque for a rear wheel drive car, and
decrease the torque for a FWD car.
Any drag racing guys would probably have a better idea of what number to use
for a friction coefficient.
Phil
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Traction and torque question
Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:04:48 -0700
All,
Does anyone know how to calculate (or estimate) the torque on
a wheel [axle] required to loose traction?
There are many variables (rubber quality, pavement type and
roughness, etc) but in general if I know the weight on that
wheel, how do I know if I'm going to loose traction?
I have selection of the motors including too powerful ones
and trying to avoid picking one which I can't take advantage of.
So I want to choose most powerful to be on the edge of loosing
traction (at low RPMs when it's still torque limited), but no
more powerful than that.
Any tips? Like will 200 ft/lb on a wheel with standard all
season thread of 195/70 R15 tire size break it on a dry
asphalt? 500 ft/lb?
Thanks,
Victor
_________________________________________________________________
Catch suspicious messages before you open themwith Windows Live Hotmail.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Thought I'd throw a little time into an update on
stuff. I have most of Bill Dube's stuff ready to ship
and had come up with a nifty little Nomex guard that
would allow it to rotate with Bills new brush timing
setup. Well Wayland came by today so I got his
eyeballs on it 8^) all proud and stuff
Well he says.. all prissy like, if you want full
protection you need wings, you better trust me on
this. Now I'm not sure if he's been drinking Red Bull
or has begun that senior citizen slip 8^o but I've
learn to trust John's judgement so I re-made Bills
Nomex pieces. It allows the longer and bent Nomex
(wings) to sweep back along the whole holder body.
Really simple but I'm hoping effective, this 30 mil is
pretty stout.
John brought in the Siamese8 today and he's pretty
happy with himself I'll tell ya. Got the rear motor
armature pretty good. Ain't pretty from the outside
anyway 8^( As always Johns timing couldn't be better
LMAO. When did you say you needed that by John?
Maybe you ought to dry fit that big yellow beast motor
in just in case, LMAO!
Anyway John was running like 4 hours late so we didn't
have much time but we gave his newest trainie the
nickle tour. After retrieving my poor motor out of
Johns truck I put it over by Lawless' Siamese9 shell
and Mike Willmons Warp9's and you know it's a little
inky dinky sucker, LMAO.
It's like your so cute, look at you. But then again
that's what it does to my baby Siamese6. It's getting
hard to stand straight anymore at the shop cause my
brain thinks it's seeing double visions EVerywhere. I
haven't opened it up yet but I'll let everyone know
what I find when I can get to it.
Being I'll be doing a complete overhaul and upgrade on
it she'll be down a bit. In as much as I'm not happy
about it it's really long overdue as it's been a while
since I've seen it last. Comparing Johns leads to
Bills leads illustrates at least a little improvement
since my being dragged into this insanity, and I
believe the time spent will be well worth it.
Anyway I posted a couple new pics of the Nomex and
rings at the site so you all could have a look.
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/
Anyway kinda cool to have the 7/11 motors at the shop
at the same time. They been eyeballing each other all
day sizing each other up. Next time they meet we'll
see which can break their wall first 8^o Then again
there are bigger fish lurking in the dark just feet
away looking to make a mark LMAO. Pretty fun times
for an old DC motor guy 8^) Please be patient while I
give EVeryone their due time. Don't want nobody
feeling like I jipped them on the Jim time LMAO!
BTW Mike, when Wayland saw your motors today he asked
if you were using both of them? I said ya, he said
wow he's gonna be quick. I think you got him worried,
LMAO.
Anyway just two pics, not much but hope you enjoy
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________Building
a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to
get online.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I realize some here only want the highest performance.
But I would like to find the lowest cost materials for homemade
batteries.
The point has been made that lead is expensive.
All metals have some electrolytic properties even if perhaps not as good
as lead of the more advanced ones.
What else can a battery be made of?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I was a kid, I made a battery from a potato. The advantage on long
trips would be that you wouldn't have to stop for food- if you had a
water-cooled controller to boil them with.
Phil
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Low cost battery materials
Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:58:55 -0700
I realize some here only want the highest performance.
But I would like to find the lowest cost materials for homemade batteries.
The point has been made that lead is expensive.
All metals have some electrolytic properties even if perhaps not as good as
lead of the more advanced ones.
What else can a battery be made of?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
The Sundance Channel brought a film crew to the
Battery Beach Burnout
back in January. Tomorrow evening at 9:00 pm the
"Drive" episode of Big
Ideas For A Small Planet airs on the Sundance Channel.
I received a
copy of the show today. You can check out the show at:
http://www.sundancechannel.com/series/thegreen_bigideas
The show
depicts four "Ideas" about Electric Vehicles. I was
very fortunate to
have my students and myself filmed in a portion of the
show along with
Tesla Motors, Lexus Hybrids, and Myers Motors. We are
the fourth Idea
which represents conversions. Chelsea Sexton speaks
throughout the
episode. Chris Paine test drove the Tesla and talks
about buying one. My
students were filmed detuning our car from 240 volts
we drag race at to
156 volts we autocross at, then competing in the
Autocross portion of
the event. This reality TV stuff is actually a lot of
work, but I
enjoyed every minute. There are a couple of quotes I
would like to take back
but it's
hard to think as you talk with no rehearsing. I am
definitely no
Roderick Wilde or Otmar but hope I shed some light on
conversions.
The show airs several times in the next week. They
are all listed on
the website.
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--- Begin Message ---
HI- I don't recognize the # J-29, but if it is like the G-29 and the G-32
it will have 2 large terminals (about 3/8" ) and on a raised block on the
side
two more smaller ones (about 3/16"). If so the Alltrax controller will not
work
by it's self. The small terminals require between 24-36 volts independent of
the Altrax. for a quick test tap 36v off the main pack (10 gage wire),
through
a contactor opperated by the key switch, to the small terminals. Connect the
Altrax to the large terminals. This way the small gage field coils will be
energised
before the throttle pedal is depressed. They should not see more than 36
volts or
less than24volts.
If this field is not enegerised, the Altrax will go immediately into
current overload.
This system should be used only as a test, as long term use will unbalance
the
battery pack.
Rember to check rotation, reversing the leads on the small feild will
reverse rotation.
Father Time
> [Original Message]
> From: Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 5/21/2007 4:53:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
>
> Phil, thanks for your support in this matter - I have
> produced controller data for Alltrax by attempting to
> drive up on auto service ramps and logging the data.
>
> Alltrax came back, telling me that the controller was
> immediately going into current limit. If anyone wants
> that data, I'd be happy to send it to them. I believe
> it was pulling 400+ amps at the motor, and the 72vdc
> pack voltage was sagging down to around 66vdc. As
> long as I stop on level grade, the car takes off fine,
> and will climb inclined grades.
>
> Alltrax, hasn't offered a resolution, I asked about a
> controller bypass, (at say 24vdc) at least for the
> initial boost to get the car rolling, and then switch
> back to the controller, but haven't heard anything
> from them on that idea. Some of the seasoned EV'rs
> might know of a way to make something like that work.
>
>
>
>
> --- "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I for one think this kind of discussion is
> > interesting and definitely
> > on-topic. Having this kind of thing discussed and
> > in the archives will help
> > people in the future!
> >
> > Do you have any volt/amp readings from your setup?
> > When you are trying to
> > go up the incline it would be very informative to
> > read the controller
> > amps/volts. On the alltrax I believe all you need
> > is a laptop and a serial
> > cable (plus their software, which you can download)
> >
> > -Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EVDL.ORG EVDL.org" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 1:17 PM
> > Subject: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting
> > torque issue.
> >
> >
> > > Please, if anyone can help me with a solution, to
> > my
> > > torque problem from a deadstop, I sure would like
> > to,
> > > off list talk with you. I don't want to bother
> > the
> > > list with an ongoing discussion, as I know using
> > an
> > > aircraft generator as a motor, isn't the smartest
> > way
> > > to go (Dang you "MotherEarthFarce" for hooking me
> > with
> > > that 75mpg article) before I found this EV'r list.
> > >
> > > That disclaimer aside, here's my problem, I think:
> > > I'm using an Aircraft Generator J29 to be exact,
> > it's
> > > not a combo, starter/generator and therefore it
> > seems
> > > to be lacking in starting torque as a motor.
> > >
> > > Is there anyway to salvage my EV and still use
> > this
> > > motor somehow? It has plenty of pep and speed
> > once it
> > > gets going, but the EV will not go if it's on an
> > > incline using an AXE 7245 controller @ 72vdc. I
> > just
> > > purchased brand new batteries, and although it's
> > > better, the car will not overcome an incline from
> > a
> > > deadstop.
> > >
> > > Please, if you have any ideas - send them to me
> > off
> > > list, as I don't want to fill up email boxes of
> > the
> > > others that aren't interested in this issue.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance - Mike
> > >
> > > Michael Barkley
> > >
> > > www.texomaev.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> www.texomaev.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Batteries grids made from gold and titanium. I do not remember which one was
the positive or negative. These batteries are made by Gulf and Western for
standby power we install for a building that houses a computer system.
One battery is about 12 inches wide by 10 inches high and 15 feet long. It
had over 75 cells in it. It slid into a frame like a electronics rack panel
and plug into a buss bar system in the rear.
A battery pack for one of these systems may be stack 8 feet high and any
widths which some was about the width on the room which may been over 20
feet.
Golf and Western built a EV van with two of these 15 foot long batteries
that slid into a enclosure just below the van floor. They said they got
over 400 miles on a charge.
I ask them how much is one battery, and they said they are about $250,000.00
each. Its would be the only battery you will ever need. Maybe 50 years
from now, when gold gets up to over $5000.00 a oz, then you could recover
the cost.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Low cost battery materials
> I realize some here only want the highest performance.
> But I would like to find the lowest cost materials for homemade
> batteries.
> The point has been made that lead is expensive.
> All metals have some electrolytic properties even if perhaps not as good
> as lead of the more advanced ones.
> What else can a battery be made of?
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This discussion should be here on the list. Other people have had to deal
with this problem in the past and more will have it in the future.
I'm not familiar with the J29. How many terminals does it have. How many are
large (3/8 inch) and how many are small (< 1/4 inch)?
If it is a starter only, it should have one (grounded return), two
(ungrounded return) or four.(reversing) large terminals. If it has two small
terminals and two large terminals, it is a shunt motor or generator. If it
has three large terminals and one (or two) small terminals, then it is a
starter/generator.
Lack of starting torque is a symptom of inadequate current at stall. You may
be able to get around this problem with a modern controller if you install
an additional inductor in one of the motor wires. I don't know enough about
the Alltrax current limit timing and the inductance of the motor, I cannot
recommend a target inductor value.
I had some inductors made for this purpose. The owner claimed they went to
an old controller that allowed it to work with low inductance motors.
You may be able to build an appropriate inductor using a laminated or
powered iron core and some 2/0 wire. The core should be about 6 inches
across and be gapped. Keep adding turns until the controller pulls like you
want.
If it pulls weakly from a stop and accelerates briskly once you get moving,
you need more inductance. As you add turns, the controller will begin
pulling hard at a lower and lower speed as the inductance goes up.
If you find that adding more turns does nothing, then the core may be
saturating.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL.ORG EVDL.org" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 1:17 PM
Subject: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
> Please, if anyone can help me with a solution, to my
> torque problem from a deadstop, I sure would like to,
> off list talk with you. I don't want to bother the
> list with an ongoing discussion, as I know using an
> aircraft generator as a motor, isn't the smartest way
> to go (Dang you "MotherEarthFarce" for hooking me with
> that 75mpg article) before I found this EV'r list.
>
> That disclaimer aside, here's my problem, I think:
> I'm using an Aircraft Generator J29 to be exact, it's
> not a combo, starter/generator and therefore it seems
> to be lacking in starting torque as a motor.
>
> Is there anyway to salvage my EV and still use this
> motor somehow? It has plenty of pep and speed once it
> gets going, but the EV will not go if it's on an
> incline using an AXE 7245 controller @ 72vdc. I just
> purchased brand new batteries, and although it's
> better, the car will not overcome an incline from a
> deadstop.
>
> Please, if you have any ideas - send them to me off
> list, as I don't want to fill up email boxes of the
> others that aren't interested in this issue.
>
> Thanks in advance - Mike
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> www.texomaev.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting idea about recovering the cost through the gold investment
however I was thinking of perhaps cheaper cathodes and anodes.
Anyone else know some cheaper cathodes and anodes besides lead?
Perhaps even non metallic.
Anyone?
On Mon, 21 May 2007 9:17 pm, Roland Wiench wrote:
Batteries grids made from gold and titanium. I do not remember which
one was
the positive or negative. These batteries are made by Gulf and Western
for
standby power we install for a building that houses a computer system.
One battery is about 12 inches wide by 10 inches high and 15 feet long.
It
had over 75 cells in it. It slid into a frame like a electronics rack
panel
and plug into a buss bar system in the rear.
A battery pack for one of these systems may be stack 8 feet high and
any
widths which some was about the width on the room which may been over
20
feet.
Golf and Western built a EV van with two of these 15 foot long
batteries
that slid into a enclosure just below the van floor. They said they
got
over 400 miles on a charge.
I ask them how much is one battery, and they said they are about
$250,000.00
each. Its would be the only battery you will ever need. Maybe 50
years
from now, when gold gets up to over $5000.00 a oz, then you could
recover
the cost.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 7:58 PM
Subject: Low cost battery materials
I realize some here only want the highest performance.
But I would like to find the lowest cost materials for homemade
batteries.
The point has been made that lead is expensive.
All metals have some electrolytic properties even if perhaps not as
good
as lead of the more advanced ones.
What else can a battery be made of?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Firefly is doing lead over carbon foam.
----- Original Message ----
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 9:25:43 PM
Subject: Re: Low cost battery materials
Interesting idea about recovering the cost through the gold investment
however I was thinking of perhaps cheaper cathodes and anodes.
Anyone else know some cheaper cathodes and anodes besides lead?
Perhaps even non metallic.
Anyone?
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lead may be expensive but it's cheaper than most alternatives
in terms of a traction battery. The potato battery is pretty
irrelevant in terms of traction batteries. The spud is only
the electrolyte - pretty much any vegetable or fruit would
do the trick - or any commonly used 'normal' battery
electrolyte.
The copper and zinc that you slip in there are the
electrodes and are consumable. It's not efficient enough
for much more than a few tenths of a watt and a neat little
demo. But not particularly practical considering that the
energy you get out of that battery came from the metal
processing, and not mother nature's underground wonder
(the spud). Yes, you can run a watch, or maybe light an
LED.
In terms of batteries for traction applications, you need to
consider not only that they store a lot of energy, and you
get a lot of power out of them (even for a low-performance
vehicle, you're asking a lot of power), but also that they
need to have a reversible chemistry... in other words, you
need to be able to charge them up. That limits the metal
combinations to many of those already either in the lab or
production. A non-reversible battery just doesn't really
cut it for an EV IMHO.
Oh yea, spud = potato.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want to go cordless I imagine there are a few of them floating
around. I'd prefer that to converting a corded electric to cordless.
I agree - go cordless. I just bought a Ryobi from a local EV'er that
finds them at thrift stores, abandoned after the batteries die. For
$50-60, he replaced the batteries and it was good to go. We really
like the mower, it does the job and is pretty quiet - about like an
electric weedeater. I think I would go insane keeping the cord from
around trees and flower beds, and there's no doubt in my mind I would
mow the cord at some point...
--
"That car has some get-up-and go and it don't make no racket."
-Richard Petty, after driving Shocker, Northhampton East HS's EV Grand
Prix winner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
It is hard to see in the pictures. Is this a 4
terminal machine? Two large (armature)? Two smaller
(field)? How it wired to the controller? I might
have an idea about what's going on.
Jeff
--- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please, if anyone can help me with a solution, to my
> torque problem from a deadstop, I sure would like
> to,
> off list talk with you. I don't want to bother the
> list with an ongoing discussion, as I know using an
> aircraft generator as a motor, isn't the smartest
> way
> to go (Dang you "MotherEarthFarce" for hooking me
> with
> that 75mpg article) before I found this EV'r list.
>
> That disclaimer aside, here's my problem, I think:
> I'm using an Aircraft Generator J29 to be exact,
> it's
> not a combo, starter/generator and therefore it
> seems
> to be lacking in starting torque as a motor.
>
> Is there anyway to salvage my EV and still use this
> motor somehow? It has plenty of pep and speed once
> it
> gets going, but the EV will not go if it's on an
> incline using an AXE 7245 controller @ 72vdc. I just
> purchased brand new batteries, and although it's
> better, the car will not overcome an incline from a
> deadstop.
>
> Please, if you have any ideas - send them to me off
> list, as I don't want to fill up email boxes of the
> others that aren't interested in this issue.
>
> Thanks in advance - Mike
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> www.texomaev.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Sick
sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Corded, 4 years, 150ft of stench cord, haven't run it over yet. Well,
that's not entirely true. I did run it over once, BUT the blades won't pick
the
cord up out of the grass. That's good to know, but I'm not going to make
it a habit of running over my cord.
Ironically, I did cut it with the corded chainsaw. I looked down and said
"I better move that cord or I'm going to cut it". I was right. Sometimes I
don't like being right.
Why corded?
1. more efficient
2. cheaper initial purchase ($179 for 21" cut)
3. never replace batteries
4. lighter
5. unlimited run time
6. generally more powerful
I have to replace my corded mower this year. 25yrs old. Deck finally
rusted out. The new B&D's are plastic, I figure it will be my last push mower
purchase. Unless B&D has gone to crap quality on the mower's like they
have on the rest of their product line.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Deanne Mott
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:03 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: electric mower - corded or battery
>
>> If you want to go cordless I imagine there are a few of them floating
>> around. I'd prefer that to converting a corded electric to cordless.
>
> I agree - go cordless. I just bought a Ryobi from a local EV'er that
> finds them at thrift stores, abandoned after the batteries die. For
> $50-60, he replaced the batteries and it was good to go. We really
> like the mower, it does the job and is pretty quiet - about like an
> electric weedeater. I think I would go insane keeping the cord from
> around trees and flower beds, and there's no doubt in my mind I would
> mow the cord at some point...
> --
> "That car has some get-up-and go and it don't make no racket."
> -Richard Petty, after driving Shocker, Northhampton East HS's EV Grand
> Prix winner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
The second pic down shows what clearly looks to me to be a 4 terminal strip.
Two large terminals with two small terminals outside them, all in a line.
In another pic I see a (red?) wire on one of the small term's but can't tell
where it's going.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:35 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator starting torque issue.
>
>
> Mike,
>
> It is hard to see in the pictures. Is this a 4
> terminal machine? Two large (armature)? Two smaller
> (field)? How it wired to the controller? I might
> have an idea about what's going on.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Please, if anyone can help me with a solution, to my
>> torque problem from a deadstop, I sure would like
>> to,
>> off list talk with you. I don't want to bother the
>> list with an ongoing discussion, as I know using an
>> aircraft generator as a motor, isn't the smartest
>> way
>> to go (Dang you "MotherEarthFarce" for hooking me
>> with
>> that 75mpg article) before I found this EV'r list.
>>
>> That disclaimer aside, here's my problem, I think:
>> I'm using an Aircraft Generator J29 to be exact,
>> it's
>> not a combo, starter/generator and therefore it
>> seems
>> to be lacking in starting torque as a motor.
>>
>> Is there anyway to salvage my EV and still use this
>> motor somehow? It has plenty of pep and speed once
>> it
>> gets going, but the EV will not go if it's on an
>> incline using an AXE 7245 controller @ 72vdc. I just
>> purchased brand new batteries, and although it's
>> better, the car will not overcome an incline from a
>> deadstop.
>>
>> Please, if you have any ideas - send them to me off
>> list, as I don't want to fill up email boxes of the
>> others that aren't interested in this issue.
>>
>> Thanks in advance - Mike
>>
>> Michael Barkley
>>
>> www.texomaev.com
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
> Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, he is a Thundersky reseller. :)
Folks have had problems with Thundersky cells (although that was the
original, not teh LFP, chemistry). Folks have also had serious
business issues dealing with Chinese battery companies. That is to
say, they have lied quite a bit about their battery's specs, QA and
consistency. The LFP series here, for example, they claim can go over
3000 cycles. I -seriously- doubt that. In fact, the claim on teh
reseller site is only 1000 cycles, the manufacturers claim is 2000 -
3000 cycles. So it is likely that they are, on average, nowhere near
that.
--T
On 5/21/07, Guy Stockwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any comments on these guys?
http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery.htm?gclid=CJfE-JDknIwCFQGPWAod
wm8k5w
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 10:29 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Speaking of battery announcements ... What about Firefly
I looked through their site briefly but didn't see some basic info,
Wh/kg, wh/liter,w/kg, cycle life/C rate, (not to mention price and
Availability.)
Maybe it is not obvious, Do you have that info? (lots of adjitives, I
need some specs.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea, Tim,
That's what it looks like to me. I think Father Time
hit the nail on the head. If he has the machine wired
as a shunt motor, both field and aramture coming off
the controller, then in current limit he may have too
low voltage for the field. A weak field at stall on a
shunt motor will give you crappy torque. And on the
other hand, at high voltage, he'll probably burn those
field coils. If this is the case, he should
separately excite.
Jeff
--- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> The second pic down shows what clearly looks to me
> to be a 4 terminal strip. Two large terminals with
> two small terminals outside them, all in a line.
>
> In another pic I see a (red?) wire on one of the
> small term's but can't tell where it's going.
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jeff Major
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:35 AM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Please help, Aircraft Generator
> starting torque issue.
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > It is hard to see in the pictures. Is this a 4
> > terminal machine? Two large (armature)? Two
> smaller
> > (field)? How it wired to the controller? I might
> > have an idea about what's going on.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > --- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Please, if anyone can help me with a solution, to
> my
> >> torque problem from a deadstop, I sure would like
> >> to,
> >> off list talk with you. I don't want to bother
> the
> >> list with an ongoing discussion, as I know using
> an
> >> aircraft generator as a motor, isn't the smartest
> >> way
> >> to go (Dang you "MotherEarthFarce" for hooking me
> >> with
> >> that 75mpg article) before I found this EV'r
> list.
> >>
> >> That disclaimer aside, here's my problem, I
> think:
> >> I'm using an Aircraft Generator J29 to be exact,
> >> it's
> >> not a combo, starter/generator and therefore it
> >> seems
> >> to be lacking in starting torque as a motor.
> >>
> >> Is there anyway to salvage my EV and still use
> this
> >> motor somehow? It has plenty of pep and speed
> once
> >> it
> >> gets going, but the EV will not go if it's on an
> >> incline using an AXE 7245 controller @ 72vdc. I
> just
> >> purchased brand new batteries, and although it's
> >> better, the car will not overcome an incline from
> a
> >> deadstop.
> >>
> >> Please, if you have any ideas - send them to me
> off
> >> list, as I don't want to fill up email boxes of
> the
> >> others that aren't interested in this issue.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance - Mike
> >>
> >> Michael Barkley
> >>
> >> www.texomaev.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > ________Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
> > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
> > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Need
a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
