EV Digest 6824
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) How to search archives
by Charles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Mustang Conversions (Was: How to search archives)
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Room to Share at Power of DC
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Portland, Oregon: EVents in October '07 ?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Portland, Oregon: EVents in October '07 ?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Another new member consulting list - now, DC-DC 's
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) drag bike project on ebay
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Starting business...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Tour de Sol replacement June 9 and 10 in New Jersey
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: How to search archives
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Electric bike story in the L.A. Times
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV bumper sticker
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ron Freund)
23) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV bumper sticker
by 58 Ghia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) FW: Best Conversion Vehicle
by "Guy Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Almost !#it myself when I got this email!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: EV bumper sticker
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roy LeMeur wrote:
Folks...
I have to agree with Bill's take on this one instead of John's as to
solid as opposed to flexible buss bars.
To remind everyone, here's some of what I said:
>....yes, flexible cables and or flat conductive braided straps are the
safest way to go for Phil's above stated reasons.
>In general, flexible cables are the best way of inter-connecting EV
batteries.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are a couple of Mustang conversions from the EV Album:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/733
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/98
--- Charles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The question I have is fairly basic and could probably be answered fairly
> quickly. I have a 68
> Mustang that I wanted to convert to electric. I want to convert this
> particular car because I
> love the styling, owned it for so long and want to continue to enjoy it, yet
> not pollute and
> consume gas in horrible manner that this car does. This car is not a daily
> driver but a fun
> weekend car, so I would not require long driving times, but would want the
> car to still be able
> to accelerate quickly and handle decently.
>
> My research is leading me to believe that this car is not going to be a
> suitable platform for
> the conversion. Weight is going to be a problem very quickly as the car
> starts off fairly heavy
> (around 3000 lbs). The unibody construction and limited places for batteries
> also will create
> problems.
>
> I have only found one instance on the internet where this has been tried and
> it was well over
> ten years ago. I have not been able to find out the fate of this particular
> car and if it was a
> miserable failure. Anyone know of a conversion of this sort? Is this just a
> bad plan
> altogether?
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I expect to be at the Power of DC for both days, am willing to share
my room at the Hampton Inn (complete with expenses!) Friday and
Saturday nights if anyone is so inclined. My contact info: (614)
488-4254, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks,
Dave Erb
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to be in the Portland, Oregon area for a wedding October
12-13, and will be spending some time visiting in the area.
So... any EV type events already known within a week or so of those
dates (ie between ~ Oct 3 & Oct 23)(ish) that I should plan around?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that solid bars
would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as mesh
straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
- http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
would this work?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michael,
Yea, got the right idea. You'd probably just need one
hump. And laminate if cross section causes it to be
too stiff. I've posted this before. Have used it
many times.
http://www.erico.com/products/FlexibarN.asp
Works great.
Jeff
--- Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps...
> assuming that solid bars
> would transfer power better, but don't deal with
> vibration as well as mesh
> straps... has anyone considered building some flex
> into the solid bars?
>
> i could explain what i mean, but a simple
> illustration is much better:
>
> - http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
>
> would this work?
>
> m.
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Get
the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another option along these lines, or not, but arguably better, is the use of
a stack of thin copper sheet material. Here's a mechanical manual
disconnect switch implemented from a stack of thin copper sheets forming a
VEE shape that mates with a VEE-shaped copper target----lots of conductive
surface with this strategy: http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/dcam0143.jpg
This image is from a cca. 1912 Rauch & Lang electric car speed control arm
(patented) that I have.
It truly is a unique manual contact arrangement and interconnect approach
that I have not seen anyone replicate, either for a manual disconnect or
simply as a potentially flexible interconnect approach between batteries or
other components.
The downside is of course that with flex there is risk of breakage as well
as greater surface area available for corrosion.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Wendell
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:45 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that solid bars
would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as mesh
straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
- http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
would this work?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Michael,
That would work if its soft drawn copper. We sometimes use hard drawn
copper wire in our electrical work, which is use for suspension work, and
will not sag.
As for plating this copper, the silver plating is a good conductor which has
13 electrons in the valance orbit, but it will increase in resistance
because it will tarnish. The contact point which would be lead against the
silver the silver lead a tarnish spot on the connector.
I found this out with standard cadmium plated battery connectors. The
connector plating was being remove by the bi-metal contact.
I now use a gold plate battery clamps, for the last 4 years, which is as
bright as the day I install it. Acid fumes does not effect these clamps and
very little shrink back.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
>
> with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that solid
> bars
> would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as mesh
> straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
>
> i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
>
> - http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
>
> would this work?
>
> m.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's towards the end of the drag racing season, so weather permitting, and
if White Zombie is still in one piece, you may be able to catch WZ out at
PIR.
damon
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Portland, Oregon: EVents in October '07 ?
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 11:17:45 -0400
I'm going to be in the Portland, Oregon area for a wedding October 12-13,
and will be spending some time visiting in the area.
So... any EV type events already known within a week or so of those dates
(ie between ~ Oct 3 & Oct 23)(ish) that I should plan around?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 30 May 2007 06:22:40 -0700, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I guess I'm missing something, b/c I'm after the
breaker, but before the main contactor, and only did
the pre-charge the first time I hooked up.
The input capacitors on the DC/DC lose their charge when you turn the
breaker off. When the breaker gets turned back on there will be a large
inrush current and a little spark & "snap" in the breaker. The spark is
hard on the breaker, and the high inrush current is bad for the
capacitors. It's similar to a contactor connecting/disconnecting a Curtis
controller to a traction pack.
Unlike the Curtis controller, your DC/DC isn't disconnected every time you
stop/start your car. You may never see a problem, or you may get "lucky"
with an early failure of the breaker or DC/DC.
Ideally the DC/DC is connected to the pack through a precharge resistor.
When the voltage across the resistor falls to an acceptable level (12
volts? 10% of pack voltage?) a relay shorts across the resistor,
effectively removing it from the circuit. You would also have to make sure
the DC/DC enable line is turned OFF until the relay is closed.
Lots of precharge discussion in the archives. Look for "precharge",
"precharge resistor", "light bulb", etc.
-Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, now we're talkin'!
Good to see they've got an ampacity chart for their options also:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/panelboard/flexibar-ulampacity.pdf
-MT
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Major
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:19 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
Hi Michael,
Yea, got the right idea. You'd probably just need one
hump. And laminate if cross section causes it to be
too stiff. I've posted this before. Have used it
many times.
http://www.erico.com/products/FlexibarN.asp
Works great.
Jeff
--- Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps...
> assuming that solid bars
> would transfer power better, but don't deal with
> vibration as well as mesh
> straps... has anyone considered building some flex
> into the solid bars?
>
> i could explain what i mean, but a simple
> illustration is much better:
>
> - http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
>
> would this work?
>
> m.
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did some "do-it-yourselves" with the cut copper tubing sections and
welding cable. I made a little jig to crimp them with a hydraulic press. I
used flux and a solder pot to only solder the first 3/4" or so of the tube
once crimped. The solder wicked up to about an inch, but the flare in the
tube was past that. I made a simpler jig out of wood to hold them on the
drill press for drilling the terminal holes. It didn't work as well as I
would have liked, but I had holes. I then took 2 pieces of heat shrink per
end and built a nice color-coded strain relief. Finally, I took them to the
grinding wheel to round the big square ends off.
I soldered them mainly because I was worried that exposure to the elements
would create higher resistance as time went on. I don't believe the solder
affected the mechanical strength adversely because of my technique. The
heat shrink also only helped, plus made the ends look almost "factory". I
was very impressed what I could do with simple tools!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
Marty Hewes wrote:
Does anybody solder the terminals on the end of their cables, or are they
all just crimped?
I haven't done much work with large cables but I know for smaller ones you
should either solder or crimp but not both. Crimps were designed so there
is no hard point in the cable. If you crimp and then solder you'll leave
a hard point where the cable is likely to break. I'm not saying not to
solder, just don't use both. I personally prefer crimps but you have to
make sure you use the right tool for the right job.
Colin.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, there is a little-known principle called the "skin effect". It
doesn't apply as much to DC, but keep in mind with a controller, there can
be much higher frequencies involved, so I always try to use something with
as much surface area as possible. Finely braided copper welding cable not
only has scads of small wires that increase the surface area, but it's also
very flexible and easy to work with.
Again, I *highly* recommend you stay away from solid buss bars in a moving
vehicle.
Here is some information on skin effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
Note that at typical controller frequencies, you are wasting copper if you
go with solid conductors much thicker than a half cm. Of course it's
debatable whether the frequency pulses aren't smoothed enough by
electrolytic filters (on the input side) and inductance (on both sides).
Either way, it's still nicer to be flexible!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that solid
bars
would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as mesh
straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
- http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
would this work?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use the 4 x 16 x 0.8 size, tinned. A lot of 300 amp
loads for 6 minutes. Even peaks of 700 amps for 10
seconds. Have never had a problem and have never
noticed evidence of heat. Is difficult to drill. I
use a hole punch. With that size, sheet metal
equipment works.
Jeff
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah, now we're talkin'!
> Good to see they've got an ampacity chart for their
> options also:
>
http://www.erico.com/public/library/panelboard/flexibar-ulampacity.pdf
> -MT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Major
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:19 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for
> bussbars ?
>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Yea, got the right idea. You'd probably just need
> one
> hump. And laminate if cross section causes it to be
> too stiff. I've posted this before. Have used it
> many times.
>
> http://www.erico.com/products/FlexibarN.asp
>
> Works great.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --- Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps...
>
> > assuming that solid bars
> > would transfer power better, but don't deal with
> > vibration as well as mesh
> > straps... has anyone considered building some flex
> > into the solid bars?
> >
> > i could explain what i mean, but a simple
> > illustration is much better:
> >
> > - http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
> >
> > would this work?
> >
> > m.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ________Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new
> email wherever you're
> surfing.
>
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Need
a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just saw an electric drag bike "project" in Texas in case anyone wants
electricity between their legs:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Project-Electric-Drag-Motorcycle-Electric-Veh
icle-EV_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46093QQihZ011QQitemZ320118255445QQrdZ1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
The case is not important to me, as I will have different mounting
requirements in different vehicles. My main display requirement is that
it is readible while driving in full day light. Translation... it needs
to be large enough and bright enough. When this type of device has been
discussed in the past it has also been pointed out that cars have some
challanging temperature extremes which may adversely effect some display
types. My emeter has a very acceptable LED segment display.
The old E-meter / Link-10 LED display is big enough, but rather dim. It
is not readable if sunlight falls directly on its face.
Newer "high brightness" LEDs are now available that can rectify this.
They aren't going to redesign the product to use them, though whoever
does a clone of it might. :-)
Cruising Equipment built a predecessor to the E-Meter (the KWH-meter)
that used an LCD display. It used less power, but had other display
problems. The digits were smaller, and hard to read. The contrast was
low, particularly if you couldn't view it straight-on. It was almost
unreadable in Minnesota winters (-20 deg.F) or in a hot car in the
summer (+120 deg.F). Good LCDs can do the job, but not the garden
variety cheap ones that everyone wants to use.
VFD (vacuum fluorescent displays) probably have the best overall
readability at high/low temperature and from dark/full sun. They are
widely used in cars, though out of fashion for the "high tech" look.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
News from Mike Bianchi:
--------
Lee,
Would you post this to the EV list? I have actively trying to get
reconnected
and find I cannot.
Subject: Tour de Sol replacement June 9 and 10 in New Jersey
There was no Tour de Sol this year, but if you are in New Jersey June 9
and/or
10 you can see Battery and Hybrid electric vehicles on display and in
competition.
from http://www.eevc.info/
21st Century Automotive Challenge
The Tour to the Shore
A day-long rally to the scenic Jersey shore
Saturday June 9, 2007
Burlington County Institute of Technology
695 Woodlane Road
Westampton, NJ 08060
In three divisions:
* Gasoline Vehicles
* Diesel/Biodiesel Vehicles
* Gasoline-Electric Hybrids
With awards including:
* Best performance in each division
* Best fuel economy in each division
* Overall best fuel economy
* Grand winner
Saturday evening will conclude with a catered Awards Ceremony & Dinner,
featuring a talk entitled
"Where do we go from here?"
by Nancy Hazard,
former director of the NESEA American Tour de Sol
The Battery Electric Vehicle Competition
* Acceleration Trials
see the zero-to-sixty power of electricity
* Autocross Event
feel a ride unhampered by the combustion engine
* Technology Exhibition
talk to the experts and entrepeneurs about their green experience
Other planned events
* River to the Shore Electric Vehicle Rally
* Tour de Sol Electric Bicycle, Neighborhood Vehicle & "Prototype"
Category
* Electric Wheel Chair & Single-Seat Three Wheel Electric Scooter
Competition
June 9 at the Westampton Campus of Burlington Country Institute of
Technology
BCIT) in Westampton, NJ, approximately 3-4 miles from exit 5 on the New
Jersey
Turnpike.
Burlington County Institute of Technology
695 Woodlane Road
Westampton, NJ 08060
Burlington Country Earth Fair June 10
Winning cars from the previous day, as well as "prototype" vehicles
and their
owners will be there to talk with visitors.
* Mini-Farmer's Market
* Sustainable Living Tent
* Guided Nature Walks
* Artisan Crafts
* Rock Climbing Wall
* Puppet Shows
* Live Music!
* Ice cream & cotton candy!
SPONSORS:
Eastern Electric Vehicle Club
Mid Atlantic Renewable Energy Association (MAREA)
North East Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA)
Details at
http://www.eevc.info/
-- Mike Bianchi Foveal Systems 973 822-2085 call to arrange Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
http://www.FovealMounts.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Current info for the list, including archives, is always available at
http://www.evdl.org/
Accept no substitutes. ;-)
I apologize; the FAQ that's sent when you subscribe is abysmally outdated.
We're in the process of moving over to Mailman as a list processor and it
didn't seem worthwhile to update the old version when it will probably be
dispensed with in a few weeks.
The Mustang you may be thinking of was converted in the mid-90s, IIRC. I'm
pretty sure I remember that John Wayland was involved with the project in
some way, so I expect he'll respond when he sees your message.
There are very few vehicles that are impossible to convert. Some are easier
than others, of course; some will meet your personal needs and desires
better than others. One of these is simple enjoyment. I think most of us will
agree that it's important to convert something you like!
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Solar power to juice the motor bike"
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/wheel/la-hy-throttleside30may30,1,1943382.story
"Plug into the future" (lithium battery)
http://www.latimes.com/la-hy-throttle30may30,1,7777880.story
John in Sylmar, CA PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't apply strongly for several reasons.
One, the DC system should have capacitors smoothing the input which
minimizes the AC current on the line to the battery.
Two, if this is a DC system, the output voltage may change but the
inductance of the motor should leave the output current fairly constant
whether the transistor is on or off. Skin effect is not based on a
change in voltage- only current. In an AC system things are a bit
different.
Also understand that skin effect is generally not reduced by stranded
(mesh) or layered conductors if they're not insulated from one another
like Litz wire does. Take the stack of thin flat bars in that company's
flex cable. The mechanical break is irrelevant, the electrical
connection is still there and the current will move to the outside
surface area of the whole bar, not the individual bars. Really the key
is a conductor with a wider cross section. A greater outside surface
area may not help in itself in some cases, for example a "sunburst"
cross section may be worse that a plain tube of the same outer size. It
depends on the ratio of feature spacing to the skin depth for that
frequency.
Danny
(-Phil-) wrote:
Actually, there is a little-known principle called the "skin effect".
It doesn't apply as much to DC, but keep in mind with a controller,
there can be much higher frequencies involved, so I always try to use
something with as much surface area as possible. Finely braided
copper welding cable not only has scads of small wires that increase
the surface area, but it's also very flexible and easy to work with.
Again, I *highly* recommend you stay away from solid buss bars in a
moving vehicle.
Here is some information on skin effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
Note that at typical controller frequencies, you are wasting copper if
you go with solid conductors much thicker than a half cm. Of course
it's debatable whether the frequency pulses aren't smoothed enough by
electrolytic filters (on the input side) and inductance (on both sides).
Either way, it's still nicer to be flexible!
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Wendell"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that
solid bars
would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as
mesh
straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
- http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
would this work?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello EV'ers
Pardon the blatent commercial plug that follows.
After a long lapse, the artistic work of Chip Gribben has
been recreated for all of you to enjoy. His late 2002
early 2003 vintage bumper sticker (in Red, White and Blue)
bearing the words 'Powered by American Electrons' has been
reproduced and is available for sale.
See: http://cafepress.com/pluginamerica/
Just in time for upcoming July 4th parades, order yours now
and you'll support PIA's mission! They've saved more than
just a few EV's from the crusher!
Ron Freund
EAA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I agree, it's not going to do much for DC, but it *does* do a lot for
flexibility. The surface area is increased by fine stranded wire, even if
the interior strands are passing current amongst themselves. The outer
surface area is easily doubled with fine strands. It definitely doesn't
hurt with DC, and in fact might help the ~20khz ripple a bit, and reduce the
thermal loss in the controller filter capacitors.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
Doesn't apply strongly for several reasons.
One, the DC system should have capacitors smoothing the input which
minimizes the AC current on the line to the battery.
Two, if this is a DC system, the output voltage may change but the
inductance of the motor should leave the output current fairly constant
whether the transistor is on or off. Skin effect is not based on a
change in voltage- only current. In an AC system things are a bit
different.
Also understand that skin effect is generally not reduced by stranded
(mesh) or layered conductors if they're not insulated from one another
like Litz wire does. Take the stack of thin flat bars in that company's
flex cable. The mechanical break is irrelevant, the electrical connection
is still there and the current will move to the outside surface area of
the whole bar, not the individual bars. Really the key is a conductor
with a wider cross section. A greater outside surface area may not help
in itself in some cases, for example a "sunburst" cross section may be
worse that a plain tube of the same outer size. It depends on the ratio
of feature spacing to the skin depth for that frequency.
Danny
(-Phil-) wrote:
Actually, there is a little-known principle called the "skin effect". It
doesn't apply as much to DC, but keep in mind with a controller, there
can be much higher frequencies involved, so I always try to use something
with as much surface area as possible. Finely braided copper welding
cable not only has scads of small wires that increase the surface area,
but it's also very flexible and easy to work with.
Again, I *highly* recommend you stay away from solid buss bars in a
moving vehicle.
Here is some information on skin effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
Note that at typical controller frequencies, you are wasting copper if
you go with solid conductors much thicker than a half cm. Of course it's
debatable whether the frequency pulses aren't smoothed enough by
electrolytic filters (on the input side) and inductance (on both sides).
Either way, it's still nicer to be flexible!
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Wendell"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that solid
bars
would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as
mesh
straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
- http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
would this work?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
What's your actual range? I am looking at '95 525i that has a cw of 3483 lbs
and a GVWR of 4497lbs. Likely will have a 144 volt DC system, but am
considering a AC system. Any suggestions?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:08 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Best Conversion Vehicle
Pick something you really like and are passionate about. Some of the other
posts mentioned usefulness of the vehicle, but that is relative to your
needs, whether they be range, utility, performance, etc. Keep in mind that
converting a very common vehicle might be quick if there are already kits
available, but then you will have an EV that millions of other cars look
just like going down the street. So there is no "right" car or truck to
convert, even though some of the folks here will tell you otherwise. Some
are easier or cheaper than others to do. On that point I will agree. I
decided when I started my project 2 years ago (nearing completion now), that
I was going to have either a BMW or Saab with the features I wanted. I
could have gotten two Hondas, a Ford Taurus (free), and a 76 Beetle for less
than my 900, but I wouldn't have nearly as "lustful" a relationship as I do
now with my EV.
Finally, more than anything else you have to believe in your project, take
your time and be ready to do stuff over it doesn't work out.
Just my two cents worth
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Whitley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:30 PM
Subject: Best Conversion Vehicle
>
> I have been lurking for awhile and I too am considering an electric
> vehicle. If the 914 is not the best convert then what is? I am not a
> mechanic, so a kit sounds good to me!!!! Dan Whitley
>
>
>
>
> I used to own a 914 and they are great fun however there is one serious
> consideration to think about with them.
>
> Remember unless the goal is a science experiment you probably want a
> USEABLE electric car in the end. That means some storage space and maybe
> more than two seats.
>
> Alfter all is said and done you want a car that is functional. The only
> saving grace for a gas powered 914 which has NO back or space at all
> behind the front seats is the front and rear trunk (because the engine is
> right behind the seats so you have both a big front and back trunk)
> but when you add batteries in those trunks you no longer have that space.
>
> If you want an electric go cart for fun then a 914 is a great electric
> car.
>
> If you want a functional car that you can even put a few grocery bags in
> then an electric 914 is useless.
>
> It will have NO storage space. And only one other seat.
>
> It will seriously have NO Storage space. People really don't understand
> it until they use one for a while. There are NO nooks and crannies behind
> the seat - just a sheer firewall.
> Something to keep in mind.
>
> You would hate to spend all the time and money to make an electric only
> to realize you don't have a very day to day functional vehicle when you
> are finished.
>
> You won't save gas or the environement if it is a car you really won't
> drive.
>
> On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:05 am, Michael Wendell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> I was just looking at the www.electroautomotive.com site
>>>
>>
>> that link is http://www.electroauto.com
>>
>>
>>> ...and their AC kit is around 15k with batteries. After all
>>> the talk of what's available I'm begining to think that is a
>>> bargain. If you are a miser it will go 150 miles on the flat.
>>>
>>
>> i'm a lurker, still in the dreaming stage with this, but i didn't
>> realize
>> their kits had that kind of range. i'm hoping to have the time to
>> seriously
>> begin tinkering this fall.
>>
>> the 914 seems to be a somewhat popular conversion, and electro's kit may
>> have something to do with that.
>>
>> while i like the 914, i've been wondering if the boxster might be a
>> better,
>> more modern equivalent. what does the list think, too heavy? i've seen
>> beat
>> up boxsters selling for reasonable prices on ebay, and i'd imagine that
>> parting out the ICE equipment would yield a nice payback.
>>
>> thanks, i'll go back to lurking.
>>
>> m.
>>
>> Michael Wendell
>> Web/Graphics Guy
>> Speedgoat Bicycles
>>
>> 724.238.7181
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW, I feel SOOO lucky, lets hope this is REAL! I got this email in response
to a Craig'slist add looking for VW Rabbit!!!!
I have a 1982 VW Rabbit that was converted from gas to electric in a high
school. The students painted it with a nice red and silver scheme they
designed themselves and put in heavy duty springs to allow for the weight
of the batteries. It was an engineering class, so they had to do the math
and calculate how strong the new springs needed to be. The engine, clutch,
radiator, fuel system, exhaust were removed. It looks very clean except
there are 2 hubcaps missing from the mags and the interior headliner is
badly worn.
We took out the 120v electric motor, other electric car parts, and
batteries. We'll use them to build another electric vehicle, possibly a
boat. I was going to scrap the car, but it just looks so nice I hesitated.
Transaxle is still in it. If you want it you can have it for $150. I don't
have title right now but can get it because it was my brother's car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was driving and saw a billboard for a brand of gasoline featuring a
happy cartoon gas pump.
It struck me as funny that there can be no "brands" of electricity for
marketing to differentiate their product.
Guess you'd do that with batteries. But with electricity as a fuel,
there's no "Cleans your brushes with Clean-Tron additives", "If your EV
has been getting sluggish, pep it up with new TXU SuperTron
electricity!", "Special wavelengths formulated for high mileage EVs!"
Danny
Ron Freund wrote:
Hello EV'ers
Pardon the blatent commercial plug that follows.
After a long lapse, the artistic work of Chip Gribben has
been recreated for all of you to enjoy. His late 2002
early 2003 vintage bumper sticker (in Red, White and Blue)
bearing the words 'Powered by American Electrons' has been
reproduced and is available for sale.
See: http://cafepress.com/pluginamerica/
Just in time for upcoming July 4th parades, order yours now
and you'll support PIA's mission! They've saved more than
just a few EV's from the crusher!
Ron Freund
EAA
--- End Message ---
