EV Digest 6826
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Ah counter - was Re: Starting business...
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Valence batteries (Was: Mustang Conversions)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: electric motorcycle project
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: electric motorcycle project
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Ah counter - was Re: Starting business...
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Welding aluminum, was electric motorcycle project
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV bumper sticker
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: electric motorcycle project
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) New with question
by Don Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV bumper sticker
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Alternator test question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Anyone know where I can get some persision zenirs or switching
transistors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Welding aluminum, was electric motorcycle project
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A fun EV encounter story
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A fun EV encounter story
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: electric motorcycle project
by Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Could one use the PANEL meters like these from this
company? Price is good, anywhere from $7.95 and up
for LED & LCD versions.
http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=108
If the link above is broken, go to: www.bgmicro.com
and look at METERS in the lefthand column. There are
several, both analog & digital to choose from and at
very good prices.
Mike, www.texomaev.com
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Damon
>
> You are looking for a inexpensive E-meter for your
> motorbike ?
> i think you will love this one :^)
>
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/drainbrain.htm
>
> Philippe
> Far far away
>
> ---------- Initial Header -----------
>
> >From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To : ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Cc :
> Date : Thu, 31 May 2007 04:54:22 +0000
> Subject : RE: Ah counter - was Re: Starting
> business...
>
> I know that it is a harsh environment, but what I am
> after is just an amp
> hour counter. I have hooked my $60 multimeter up to
> my shunt before and
> watched it while I was riding and it seemed to do a
> good job of reading the
> voltage across the shunt. It has a serial port, so
> it would be fairly
> straight forward to poll the data from the serial
> port and count the ahrs,
> but that is a rather bulky solution. It just seems
> like there are so many
> off the shelf solutions to read current that it
> shouldn't be that hard to
> add a device that accumulates the data over time and
> does a reasonable job
> of keeping track of it for you.
>
> With most shunts usually outputting less then a
> hundred millivolts I can see
> where getting a good read on the signal might be a
> problem, but why does an
> analog meter not have a problem. I can use the same
> shunt which is so
> difficult to build a digital counter for and hook
> any old ammeter up to it
> and get fairly reasonable results. It baffles me,
> but then again I have
> never tried it.
>
> damon
>
>
> >From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Ah counter - was Re: Starting business...
> >Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:01:02 -0700
> >
> >Damon, no, reading voltage on the shunt is not by
> itself too difficult.
> >
> >It is difficult to fight the noise, to condition
> the signal, make sure
> >there are no signal errors induced along wiring;
> you need to know
> >something of shielding, de-coupling, impedance
> matching and other
> >things to tame unwanted spikes without degradation
> of signal shape too
> >much. Not only know from the text books and app
> notes, but know from
> >frustration personally crawling under the vehicle 5
> times re-doing
> >something, working toward getting it right. Using
> real (sophisticated and
> >so expensive) tools.
> >
> >It is not technically difficult, but, say,
> challenging to present info
> >in a usable form it's easy to comprehend. (I
> realize, everyone's
> >opinion about "easy" is different). It is not too
> difficult to write
> >a code which integrates shunt current over time to
> get Ah readout.
> >
> >It is art of making it all work flawlessly in a
> real vehicle (e.g. not
> >to be a toy), unlike having it running on the bench
> off the lab power
> >supplies that is difficult. Making it visually
> pleasant, rigid (esp in a
> >motorcycle you may be thinking of, where it also
> have to be splash
> >proof). The output sure has to be bright enough. I
> have quite bright LED
> >display in EVision but it is still totally washed
> out under direct sun.
> >Best thing is to install unit in a cavity where
> it's always a "shadow",
> >ideally integrate in the instrument cluster. Tube
> visor over it helps
> >greatly too. LCD is good at bright sun but fragile
> and temp dependent,
> >LEDs are good in dark but may be limited (not
> graphic), VFDs are
> >perhaps indeed the best compromise as Lee noted;
> one the downside is
> >just only one color is available (for given
> display). Same about those
> >orange glowing plasma discharge tube displays.
> >
> >You probably know what my gadget, as it stands now
> (being beta tested)
> >looks like:
> http://www.metricmind.com/images/evision.jpg
> >
> >Next time around I'll give a VFDs serious thought.
> One off unit
> >is not a problem. The problem is steady supply of
> these
> >things and making sure manufacturer is not
> obsoleting them before
> >you come up with design you plan to produce and
> sell. This is
> >one of the differences between hobby and business
> as OEM.
> >
> >I've just gone through design process of e-meter
> replacement and it's
> >not as easy as it may seem, but I guess, all
> depends on what you expect.
> >I can tell you, by the time you're done with robust
> design, BRUSA
> >counter will appear cheap to you. Re-using (just
> buying) someone
> >else's well working hardware often makes more sense
> than coming up
> >with your own. All too often by looking at the task
> and existing
> >solution engineers think they can do it better
> (read, "I'm smarter than
> >them")
> >without analyzing what went into design and why
> solutions what they are,
> >which is a bit more than "why this C18 capacitor is
> there? Let's get
> >rid of it. We can get by without this D6 as well,
> body diode will
> >do...". Outcome - design failed and creator quietly
> realizes
> >there is much more to learn yet... This is not to
> discourage you trying,
> >it's the only way to make something better, it's
> just appreciating
> >what's already out there and worked out, and not to
> be ignorant of it.
> >Try not to look only at amount of dollars something
> cost. Appreciate
> >what went into creation of it. Good check is: if I
> were to create this
> >gadget, what would I charge for it? And get ready
> to pay the same if
> >someone else created equal gadget.
> >
> >--
> >Victor
> >'91 ACRX - something different
> >
> >damon henry wrote:
> >
> >>Getting an appropriate volt meter and ammeter are
> simple as they come
> >> off the shelf in all different shapes and sizes,
> but since I am
> >>using NiCads I really need an amp hour counter,
> and the only option
> >>besides an emeter that I am aware of are the
> expensive Brusa ones
> >>that Victor sales. How hard can it be to read the
> voltage off my
> >>shunt and and keep track of what is happening?
> >>
> >>thanks damon
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB
> with Windows Live Hotmail.
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ALICE C'EST ENCORE MIEUX
> AVEC CANAL+ LE BOUQUET ! ---------------
> Découvrez vite l'offre exclusive ALICEBOX et CANAL+
> LE BOUQUET, en cliquant ici http://alicebox.fr
> Soumis à conditions.
>
>
>
=== message truncated ===
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris> But I love my Valence lithium ion conversion and am never going
Chris> back!
Interesting. Are there any considerations when using these beasties instead
of PbA? I take it they ain't cheap... Dare I ask how much you paid for
your pack (+ BMS)?
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, I know it's a bit off topic, but I do need to make battery racks and add
motor and trans mounts to my frame, can't think of using any steel beyond
1/4 inch, probably more like 1/8". I'd like to be able to do aluminum and
maybe stainless. I've got a harbor freight nearby.
I'm pretty good with a torch on steel, but that throws a lot of extra heat.
I don't mind spending $250 to $300 for a moderate power welder. What is the
difference in cost of consumables between using a shielding gas and flux
wire? Is there a flux coated rod you can use with a TIG torch for
non-critical welds, or does it always need to use gas?
I'm looking at:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91811
or
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93793
Can all MIG units do aluminum?
Can flux wire only do aluminum?
None of the under $300 MIG units mention DC, do they all do it? Is it
unnecessary?
Is MIG easier than TIG, or just faster but less precise?
Flux wire, MIG, TIG or Arc? Pros and cons please?
Thanks in advance,
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "lyle sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: electric motorcycle project
Tim,
Before you begin though do a price check with a local
machinist to see which would be cheaper for you (and
easier in the long run) i.e. whether buying a welder
that you can use again (woohoo, another tool) or a
paid professional weld that you know will hold but not
look or weigh like you envisioned.
From my experience in welding, I started with one I
bought from Harbor Freight. It's a flux core wire
feed 110V welder that came with a face shield with
tinted welding glass. It was easy to use. In fact, I
was able to weld sheetmetal pans onto one of my VW
beetles and make a welding cart out of a shopping
cart. I thought it was simple after I got over my
initial fear. I just placed the tip where I wanted
and squeezed the trigger. Essentially, I did a couple
of tack welds to check fit and hold in place. Weld in
place and then checked the weld. And yeah, there was
lots of spatter until I got the hang of it.
Keep in mind some of the tools needed in addition to
the welder that may add to your costs:
BFH (Hammer) to check welds
Vice grips
Angle Grinder with available cutting wheel attachment
Depending on the type of stock, a pipe bender or angle
iron bender (this will cut down on adding unnecessary
weight from unnecesary welds)
I know you have been planning this for awhile now so I
offer good luck and have fun riding. OH, measure
twice (if not more) and cut once.
Lyle
--- Tim Gamber wrote:
Im planning on starting a motorcycle conversion this
fall if everything goes
well, nobody around me thinks it will work so it has
been a little
discouraging. I plan on using an open style
motorcycle frame kinda sporty
type with a 72 volt 450 amp controller a perm 132
motor and 6 batteries
around 35 amp/h in size. Im expecting about 30 KM
max range. Im still unsure
if i should use a big charger and regs or 6 smaller
individual chargers. I
do not have a welder so im obviously going to need
to get one and also a
little unsure about how much that will set me back.
I do not have very much
welding expirience at all and was just wondering how
difficult a project
like this might be? If everything goes well i hope
it will be able to do
about 110 km/h. Any encouraging words?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Wendell wrote:
with all the talk of solid bars vs. mesh straps... assuming that solid bars
would transfer power better, but don't deal with vibration as well as mesh
straps... has anyone considered building some flex into the solid bars?
i could explain what i mean, but a simple illustration is much better:
- http://www.kwyjibo.com/public/battery-bar.gif
would this work?
Yes, though even a single "bump" is usually adeaquate. Like this: _/\_
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
Another option along these lines, or not, but arguably better, is the
use of a stack of thin copper sheet material. Here's a mechanical
manual disconnect switch implemented from a stack of thin copper
sheets forming a VEE shape that mates with a VEE-shaped copper
target----lots of conductive surface with this strategy:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/dcam0143.jpg This image is from a
cca. 1912 Rauch & Lang electric car speed control arm (patented) that
I have.
Good photo! Yes, this style became quite common on older drum and rotary
controllers. I have a big 1940's rheostat that uses it as well.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's been a couple of decades now since my High School welding class, and I
really have not done any welding since, but at the time I was taught that
you can only do aluminum with TIG.
damon
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: electric motorcycle project
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 07:44:17 -0500
OK, I know it's a bit off topic, but I do need to make battery racks and
add motor and trans mounts to my frame, can't think of using any steel
beyond 1/4 inch, probably more like 1/8". I'd like to be able to do
aluminum and maybe stainless. I've got a harbor freight nearby.
I'm pretty good with a torch on steel, but that throws a lot of extra heat.
I don't mind spending $250 to $300 for a moderate power welder. What is
the difference in cost of consumables between using a shielding gas and
flux wire? Is there a flux coated rod you can use with a TIG torch for
non-critical welds, or does it always need to use gas?
I'm looking at:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91811
or
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93793
Can all MIG units do aluminum?
Can flux wire only do aluminum?
None of the under $300 MIG units mention DC, do they all do it? Is it
unnecessary?
Is MIG easier than TIG, or just faster but less precise?
Flux wire, MIG, TIG or Arc? Pros and cons please?
Thanks in advance,
Marty
----- Original Message ----- From: "lyle sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: electric motorcycle project
Tim,
Before you begin though do a price check with a local
machinist to see which would be cheaper for you (and
easier in the long run) i.e. whether buying a welder
that you can use again (woohoo, another tool) or a
paid professional weld that you know will hold but not
look or weigh like you envisioned.
From my experience in welding, I started with one I
bought from Harbor Freight. It's a flux core wire
feed 110V welder that came with a face shield with
tinted welding glass. It was easy to use. In fact, I
was able to weld sheetmetal pans onto one of my VW
beetles and make a welding cart out of a shopping
cart. I thought it was simple after I got over my
initial fear. I just placed the tip where I wanted
and squeezed the trigger. Essentially, I did a couple
of tack welds to check fit and hold in place. Weld in
place and then checked the weld. And yeah, there was
lots of spatter until I got the hang of it.
Keep in mind some of the tools needed in addition to
the welder that may add to your costs:
BFH (Hammer) to check welds
Vice grips
Angle Grinder with available cutting wheel attachment
Depending on the type of stock, a pipe bender or angle
iron bender (this will cut down on adding unnecessary
weight from unnecesary welds)
I know you have been planning this for awhile now so I
offer good luck and have fun riding. OH, measure
twice (if not more) and cut once.
Lyle
--- Tim Gamber wrote:
Im planning on starting a motorcycle conversion this
fall if everything goes
well, nobody around me thinks it will work so it has
been a little
discouraging. I plan on using an open style
motorcycle frame kinda sporty
type with a 72 volt 450 amp controller a perm 132
motor and 6 batteries
around 35 amp/h in size. Im expecting about 30 KM
max range. Im still unsure
if i should use a big charger and regs or 6 smaller
individual chargers. I
do not have a welder so im obviously going to need
to get one and also a
little unsure about how much that will set me back.
I do not have very much
welding expirience at all and was just wondering how
difficult a project
like this might be? If everything goes well i hope
it will be able to do
about 110 km/h. Any encouraging words?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One problem with these particular digital meters ( and most of them that are
this cheap) is that you must have a separate ground for the power source and
the measured voltage.
This makes them inconvenient - or unusable - for a lot of applications.
Phil
From: Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Ah counter - was Re: Starting business...
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 05:12:02 -0700 (PDT)
Could one use the PANEL meters like these from this
company? Price is good, anywhere from $7.95 and up
for LED & LCD versions.
http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=108
If the link above is broken, go to: www.bgmicro.com
and look at METERS in the lefthand column. There are
several, both analog & digital to choose from and at
very good prices.
Mike, www.texomaev.com
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Damon
>
> You are looking for a inexpensive E-meter for your
> motorbike ?
> i think you will love this one :^)
>
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/drainbrain.htm
>
> Philippe
> Far far away
>
> ---------- Initial Header -----------
>
> >From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To : ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Cc :
> Date : Thu, 31 May 2007 04:54:22 +0000
> Subject : RE: Ah counter - was Re: Starting
> business...
>
> I know that it is a harsh environment, but what I am
> after is just an amp
> hour counter. I have hooked my $60 multimeter up to
> my shunt before and
> watched it while I was riding and it seemed to do a
> good job of reading the
> voltage across the shunt. It has a serial port, so
> it would be fairly
> straight forward to poll the data from the serial
> port and count the ahrs,
> but that is a rather bulky solution. It just seems
> like there are so many
> off the shelf solutions to read current that it
> shouldn't be that hard to
> add a device that accumulates the data over time and
> does a reasonable job
> of keeping track of it for you.
>
> With most shunts usually outputting less then a
> hundred millivolts I can see
> where getting a good read on the signal might be a
> problem, but why does an
> analog meter not have a problem. I can use the same
> shunt which is so
> difficult to build a digital counter for and hook
> any old ammeter up to it
> and get fairly reasonable results. It baffles me,
> but then again I have
> never tried it.
>
> damon
>
>
> >From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Ah counter - was Re: Starting business...
> >Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 19:01:02 -0700
> >
> >Damon, no, reading voltage on the shunt is not by
> itself too difficult.
> >
> >It is difficult to fight the noise, to condition
> the signal, make sure
> >there are no signal errors induced along wiring;
> you need to know
> >something of shielding, de-coupling, impedance
> matching and other
> >things to tame unwanted spikes without degradation
> of signal shape too
> >much. Not only know from the text books and app
> notes, but know from
> >frustration personally crawling under the vehicle 5
> times re-doing
> >something, working toward getting it right. Using
> real (sophisticated and
> >so expensive) tools.
> >
> >It is not technically difficult, but, say,
> challenging to present info
> >in a usable form it's easy to comprehend. (I
> realize, everyone's
> >opinion about "easy" is different). It is not too
> difficult to write
> >a code which integrates shunt current over time to
> get Ah readout.
> >
> >It is art of making it all work flawlessly in a
> real vehicle (e.g. not
> >to be a toy), unlike having it running on the bench
> off the lab power
> >supplies that is difficult. Making it visually
> pleasant, rigid (esp in a
> >motorcycle you may be thinking of, where it also
> have to be splash
> >proof). The output sure has to be bright enough. I
> have quite bright LED
> >display in EVision but it is still totally washed
> out under direct sun.
> >Best thing is to install unit in a cavity where
> it's always a "shadow",
> >ideally integrate in the instrument cluster. Tube
> visor over it helps
> >greatly too. LCD is good at bright sun but fragile
> and temp dependent,
> >LEDs are good in dark but may be limited (not
> graphic), VFDs are
> >perhaps indeed the best compromise as Lee noted;
> one the downside is
> >just only one color is available (for given
> display). Same about those
> >orange glowing plasma discharge tube displays.
> >
> >You probably know what my gadget, as it stands now
> (being beta tested)
> >looks like:
> http://www.metricmind.com/images/evision.jpg
> >
> >Next time around I'll give a VFDs serious thought.
> One off unit
> >is not a problem. The problem is steady supply of
> these
> >things and making sure manufacturer is not
> obsoleting them before
> >you come up with design you plan to produce and
> sell. This is
> >one of the differences between hobby and business
> as OEM.
> >
> >I've just gone through design process of e-meter
> replacement and it's
> >not as easy as it may seem, but I guess, all
> depends on what you expect.
> >I can tell you, by the time you're done with robust
> design, BRUSA
> >counter will appear cheap to you. Re-using (just
> buying) someone
> >else's well working hardware often makes more sense
> than coming up
> >with your own. All too often by looking at the task
> and existing
> >solution engineers think they can do it better
> (read, "I'm smarter than
> >them")
> >without analyzing what went into design and why
> solutions what they are,
> >which is a bit more than "why this C18 capacitor is
> there? Let's get
> >rid of it. We can get by without this D6 as well,
> body diode will
> >do...". Outcome - design failed and creator quietly
> realizes
> >there is much more to learn yet... This is not to
> discourage you trying,
> >it's the only way to make something better, it's
> just appreciating
> >what's already out there and worked out, and not to
> be ignorant of it.
> >Try not to look only at amount of dollars something
> cost. Appreciate
> >what went into creation of it. Good check is: if I
> were to create this
> >gadget, what would I charge for it? And get ready
> to pay the same if
> >someone else created equal gadget.
> >
> >--
> >Victor
> >'91 ACRX - something different
> >
> >damon henry wrote:
> >
> >>Getting an appropriate volt meter and ammeter are
> simple as they come
> >> off the shelf in all different shapes and sizes,
> but since I am
> >>using NiCads I really need an amp hour counter,
> and the only option
> >>besides an emeter that I am aware of are the
> expensive Brusa ones
> >>that Victor sales. How hard can it be to read the
> voltage off my
> >>shunt and and keep track of what is happening?
> >>
> >>thanks damon
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB
> with Windows Live Hotmail.
>
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ALICE C'EST ENCORE MIEUX
> AVEC CANAL+ LE BOUQUET ! ---------------
> Découvrez vite l'offre exclusive ALICEBOX et CANAL+
> LE BOUQUET, en cliquant ici http://alicebox.fr
> Soumis à conditions.
>
>
>
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On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 13:00 +0000, damon henry wrote:
> It's been a couple of decades now since my High School welding class, and I
> really have not done any welding since, but at the time I was taught that
> you can only do aluminum with TIG.
Aluminum is best welded with squarewave TIG as far as I understand
(among those processes that a hobbyist can afford), but it can be done
with MIG. You'll need a spool gun though, because aluminum wire will
get jammed in a long MIG hose. A spool gun puts the spool right next to
the nozzle.
I picked up a ReadyWelder for less than $400 off of ebay -- it's
basically a battery-powered spool gun. Hook it up to a pair of
batteries and a gas bottle, and you've got more power than you could buy
with twice the money with a normal mains-powered unit (It produces about
250A at 24V, between 350 and 400A at 36V). I have yet to try it on
aluminum.
The way that squarewave TIG deals with the aluminum oxide layer (which
must be eliminated or it will greatly weaken the weld) is with the
reverse-polarity portion of the squarewave. This brings heat to the
surface of the workpiece (and also to the electrode) and helps to blast
away the oxide. I believe MIG welding uses reverse polarity all the
time so as to effectively melt the wire, so this may also be how
aluminum welding is possible with MIG. (Flux-core welding on steel, in
contrast, is done with "straight polarity").
One thing's evident from the reading I've done on the subject: aluminum
welding is very different from steel, and for most folks that means it's
*hard*. Best to do some study and practice before attempting a weld that
your life will depend on. :-)
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
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(-Phil-) wrote:
Actually, there is a little-known principle called the "skin effect".
It doesn't apply as much to DC, but keep in mind with a controller,
there can be much higher frequencies involved, so I always try to use
something with as much surface area as possible. Finely braided
copper welding cable not only has scads of small wires that increase
the surface area, but it's also very flexible and easy to work with.
The skin effect doesn't exist at DC (battery leads), and is normally
insignificant at the frequencies involved in electric vehicle motor drives.
I *highly* recommend you stay away from solid buss bars in a moving
vehicle. Note that at typical controller frequencies, you are wasting
copper if you go with solid conductors much thicker than a half cm.
Of course it's debatable whether the frequency pulses aren't smoothed
enough by electrolytic filters (on the input side) and inductance (on
both sides).
It's not a matter for debate. The battery current and motor current is
primarily DC (in a DC motor drive) with only a minor high frequency
component. In an AC drive, the motor current is primarily low frequency
AC (120 Hz or less).
Notice that all motor controllers use buss bars.
Solid buss bar interconnects are the norm for all inter-cell connections
in batteries, and for battery-to-battery connections when you can insure
the batteries can't move at all (such as industrial batteries in a
strong steel case).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Danny Miller wrote:
I was driving and saw a billboard for a brand of gasoline featuring a
happy cartoon gas pump.
It struck me as funny that there can be no "brands" of electricity for
marketing to differentiate their product.
Guess you'd do that with batteries. But with electricity as a fuel,
there's no "Cleans your brushes with Clean-Tron additives", "If your EV
has been getting sluggish, pep it up with new TXU SuperTron
electricity!", "Special wavelengths formulated for high mileage EVs!"
Hah! Marketeers can claim *anything* in their advertising. After all,
the gasoline we buy is a generic product; it's the same for all brands,
comes from the same refineries and is delivered in the same tanker
trucks. They still advertise it as if every brand is somehow unique.
Throw a bag of some mystery additive into a 10,000 gallon tank at the
gas station, and pretend that a few molecules of it actually get to your
gas tank.
Who's to say they won't put a 1 MHz 1 milliwatt oscillator on their
megawatt power plant and advertise it as a "special high frequency
additive", or put up one tiny windmill and claim "we use green electrons
from all-natural sources".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 07:44 -0500, Marty Hewes wrote:
> OK, I know it's a bit off topic, but I do need to make battery racks and add
> motor and trans mounts to my frame, can't think of using any steel beyond
> 1/4 inch, probably more like 1/8". I'd like to be able to do aluminum and
> maybe stainless. I've got a harbor freight nearby.
>
> I'm pretty good with a torch on steel, but that throws a lot of extra heat.
> I don't mind spending $250 to $300 for a moderate power welder. What is the
> difference in cost of consumables between using a shielding gas and flux
> wire? Is there a flux coated rod you can use with a TIG torch for
> non-critical welds, or does it always need to use gas?
>
> I'm looking at:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91811
> or
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=93793
>
Bear in mind that a DC-only TIG machine will *not* do aluminum. You need
the repeated swap between straight and reverse polarity (squarewave is
best, sinewave will work) to do aluminum with TIG, the former for
penetration, and the latter for oxide removal.
> Can all MIG units do aluminum?
>
> Can flux wire only do aluminum?
>
> None of the under $300 MIG units mention DC, do they all do it? Is it
> unnecessary?
As far as I know, all the affordable MIG units are DC only. Polarity is
typically switched by a jumper or switch inside the case.
> Is MIG easier than TIG, or just faster but less precise?
"Yes." MIG is vastly easier than TIG. It took me about 10 minutes to
make an effective weld with MIG. It took me about 8 months of
occasional practice before I was confident with my TIG welds (and they
were still ugly). TIG is extremely precise, but only when you've gotten
good at it. :-) I'm still not there yet, but every time I weld I pick
up a little insight into a better technique.
> Flux wire, MIG, TIG or Arc? Pros and cons please?
Flux-core is great for outdoor welding, or where there is a breeze that
would blow the shield gas away. MIG gives a better, cleaner weld if you
can do it in your garage with the fan off. Both of these are about as
easy to do, but with flux-core you'll have more slag and spatter to
clean off afterward.
TIG takes a lot of effort to learn but can produce beautiful welds (and
since you don't necessarily have to feed the filler metal, you can
"edit" welds more easily with TIG, I've found). You'll need two arms and
a foot on the pedal for it though, which makes TIG more of a sit-down,
workbench process than the others. Look on YouTube and you'll find at
least one video I've seen of a guy crawling around under a car with both
feet squeezing a TIG pedal. This is pretty cool, but I think it would
take a lot of practice. (Torch-mounted amp controls are available, but
are clumsy and difficult to use, the prevailing opinion seems to be).
Some people can do stick welding well, but I am terrible at it. I can
make a bead on a flat piece of metal, but I am not good at actually
sticking two pieces of metal together with it.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
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At 06:44 AM 5/31/2007, Lee Hart wrote:
Hah! Marketeers can claim *anything* in their advertising. After
all, the gasoline we buy is a generic product; it's the same for all
brands, comes from the same refineries and is delivered in the same
tanker trucks. They still advertise it as if every brand is somehow
unique. Throw a bag of some mystery additive into a 10,000 gallon
tank at the gas station, and pretend that a few molecules of it
actually get to your gas tank.
The additives are usually added to the tanker when the tanker arrives.
By a single guy.
Carrying the additives in a suitcase.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Frank John wrote:
I'm setting up a small test station to spin an external regulator
alternator at different speeds with varying field to measure output.
Will I hurt the alternator measuring open-circuit voltage or does
there need to be a load connected?
They can safely operate at no load, within reason. Things to watch out for:
- Don't apply high field current at high rpm. This commands it to
produce excessively high voltages which can kill the diodes.
- Don't suddenly remove the load when the unit is operating at high
current. The inductance of the field causes field current to fall
slowly, so you can get a huge voltage spike if the load is lost.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Michael T Kadie wrote:
Anyone know where I can get some precision zener diodes or switching
transistors?
Zener diodes are normally 5% or 10% accuracy, and come in EIA standard
sizes (3.3v, 3.6v, 3.9v). A 3.6v 5% part is 3.43-3.78v at 20ma; much
broader at other currents. That's what you get for 5 cents!
There are voltage reference diodes that are a bit better, but at much
higher prices. You won't find them at voltages under about 6v, or with
accuracies better than 1-2%.
At these low voltages, there are integrated circuits built to act like a
zener diode with much better performance. For example, a TL431 costs
about 25 cents, and is 2.5v +/-2%, and has a control pin that you can
bias with two 1% resistors to other voltage. A TL431 and two 1%
resistors gives you a 3.75v +/-3% accuracy, which will be stable over
temperature and currents from 1-150 ma.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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You can do aluminum welding with a MIG. You can pick up small spools of
aluminum wire and just change the gas that is use for steel to aluminum.
Another method you can use is use aluminum solder, which is a lower melting
type. Radiator shops use aluminum solder for aluminum radiators or building
up a aluminum radiator. They can weld on large thick aluminum mounting pads
on to the thin aluminum radiator with this stuff.
I seen a all aluminum race car that this guy use some TIG and some aluminum
solder for welding the frame rails and body panels. These welds look so
smooth, that they did not have to be sanded or finish off.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:29 AM
Subject: Welding aluminum, was electric motorcycle project
> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 13:00 +0000, damon henry wrote:
> > It's been a couple of decades now since my High School welding class,
> > and I
> > really have not done any welding since, but at the time I was taught
> > that
> > you can only do aluminum with TIG.
>
> Aluminum is best welded with squarewave TIG as far as I understand
> (among those processes that a hobbyist can afford), but it can be done
> with MIG. You'll need a spool gun though, because aluminum wire will
> get jammed in a long MIG hose. A spool gun puts the spool right next to
> the nozzle.
>
> I picked up a ReadyWelder for less than $400 off of ebay -- it's
> basically a battery-powered spool gun. Hook it up to a pair of
> batteries and a gas bottle, and you've got more power than you could buy
> with twice the money with a normal mains-powered unit (It produces about
> 250A at 24V, between 350 and 400A at 36V). I have yet to try it on
> aluminum.
>
> The way that squarewave TIG deals with the aluminum oxide layer (which
> must be eliminated or it will greatly weaken the weld) is with the
> reverse-polarity portion of the squarewave. This brings heat to the
> surface of the workpiece (and also to the electrode) and helps to blast
> away the oxide. I believe MIG welding uses reverse polarity all the
> time so as to effectively melt the wire, so this may also be how
> aluminum welding is possible with MIG. (Flux-core welding on steel, in
> contrast, is done with "straight polarity").
>
> One thing's evident from the reading I've done on the subject: aluminum
> welding is very different from steel, and for most folks that means it's
> *hard*. Best to do some study and practice before attempting a weld that
> your life will depend on. :-)
>
> --
> Christopher Robison
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
>
>
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Maybe you're the angel on his shoulder. LR.......
Your nice little motor is in the shop getting a coupler made.............
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> I really enjoy your stories Jim. I'm sure you will eventually hack an
> EV together for yourself <LMAO>.
>
> Paul "PITA" G. ;-)
Yep he should. I sent him a 48v controller & a 48v to 12v dc/dc converter.
At least two wheels..........Lawrence Rhodes....
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Hi Tim,
I think you're plan is pretty close. I have gut feeling you might be
expecting a bit much speed wise to get that kind of range.
I also agree with the welding comments posted. I never welded before
in my life and picked up a Lincoln wire feed welder. It does make
some ugly welds with lots of spatter but they seem to be holding.
(crosses fingers) I've designed several electric motorcycles (though
I've only built two so I'm not an expert) and one thing I try hard to
do is to not modify the frame. No real reason I guess but
hacking/welding a frame just seems wrong to me. So, I basically
build a sub-chassis to hold the electric goodies. A buddy of mine
has started building a bike and went the hack/weld on the frame
route. Because it's an aluminium frame he's having a local shop do
the welding. I took it for a test ride the other day and I have to
say the frame looks very professional. Factory like, maybe, even.
I never worried much about regulators because the nature of
motorcycles makes it easy to (re)move batteries. I just rotated the
batteries like one rotates wheels on a car.
Im planning on starting a motorcycle conversion this fall if
everything goes well, nobody around me thinks it will work so it has
been a little discouraging. I plan on using an open style motorcycle
frame kinda sporty type with a 72 volt 450 amp controller a perm 132
motor and 6 batteries around 35 amp/h in size. Im expecting about 30
KM max range. Im still unsure if i should use a big charger and regs
or 6 smaller individual chargers. I do not have a welder so im
obviously going to need to get one and also a little unsure about
how much that will set me back. I do not have very much welding
expirience at all and was just wondering how difficult a project
like this might be? If everything goes well i hope it will be able
to do about 110 km/h. Any encouraging words?
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Electric Motorcycle Listserv
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
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