EV Digest 6862
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Thundersky Real World Experience
by "brougham Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Triangle wave generator
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Sunrise?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV count
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Troll Removal Survey
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: forget about acceleration... what about range?
by "Steven Arlint" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Troll Removal Survey
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Woohoo! just finished homemade capacitive discharge spot battery
tab welder
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Count
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Standards (was Re: An indesent proposition
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Thundersky Real World Experience
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: An indesent proposition
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Zilla 2k 300v Anyone?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: EV count CT heard From.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Once again Lee tells it like it is.
thanks for your insightful and informative posts
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Every time we discuss AC vs. DC the fog seems to
> move in. I'm not saying
> there aren't plenty of good reasons for choosing one
> or the other. But
> these are not among them:
>
> > the advantage comes from the high rpm where you
> can supply the power
> > more in the voltage and less in the current.
> Which is good since all
> > the loss is in the current side.
>
> You can buy the same motor wound for different
> voltages. You'll find
> that its mechanical performance is *identical* --
> same torque, same
> speed, same horsepower, same efficiency, etc. --
> regardless of the
> voltage it is wound for.
>
> When you rewind for twice the voltage, you need
> twice the turns per
> coil. Thus you have twice the total wire length. To
> fit twice the turns,
> you also need to wire with half the cross-sectional
> area. Twice the
> length of half-size wire means 4 times the
> electrical resistance. At
> double the voltage, it will indeed draw half the
> current; but since
> Power = I^2R, and R has quadrupled, your resistive
> losses are identical
> -- unaffected by the voltage the motor is wound
> for.
>
> Higher mechanical RPM does indeed raise the
> power-to-weight ratio for a
> motor (AC or DC). That's because the current rating
> is basically defined
> by the wire size, while the voltage rating is
> defined by the insulation
> strength and/or mechanical strength of the rotor.
> For maximum power, you
> apply the highest current it can stand without
> overheating, *and* the
> highest voltage it can stand without flying apart or
> shorting out.
>
> It's common to find both AC and DC motors built for
> 10,000+ RPM. They
> are used anywhere that high power-to-weight matters
> above all else
> (vacuum cleaners, portable tools and toys; and
> sometimes in EVs.)
>
> > AC drive systems are affected by skin effect, DC
> systems are not.
>
> No; skin effect only becomes troublesome at RF
> frequencies in the MHz.
> It is trivial at the frequencies used by AC motors
> (up to 200 Hz or so),
> or those used by MOSFET or IGBT controllers (20 KHz
> or less).
>
> > the power is not moving through all the copper at
> the same time and
> > this increases the effective resistance for a
> motor made of a given
> > mass of copper.
>
> Remember that all DC motors are really AC motors
> with a built-in
> DC-to-AC inverter (the commutator and brushes). The
> voltage on the coils
> in a DC motor is approximately sinusoidal, just like
> it is in an AC
> motor. The winding losses are therefore basically
> the same.
>
> > Motor winding resistance is a significant issue at
> these power
> > levels.
>
> Copper losses go *down* as motor sizes go up. The
> bigger the motor, the
> higher its intrinsic efficiency. In part this is
> because doubling the
> cross sectional area of an iron core quadruples its
> area (4x the
> horsepower), but the distance around it (length of
> wire) around it only
> doubles.
>
> > the overriding benefit of AC remains the regen
> capability
>
> Every motor is also a generator, AC or DC. But the
> designer can choose
> the design to optimize it for motoring or
> generating. Wound field motors
> (AC wound rotor or DC shunt or sepex) make excellent
> generators, but
> mediocre traction motors (starting torque is low).
> PM motors (AC or DC)
> are good generators and motors (high peak
> efficiency, but harder to
> control and lower part-load efficiency). Motors with
> indirect field
> control (series DC, induction AC) are excellent
> traction motors, but
> poor generators due to the difficulty of control.
>
> The perceived benefit of AC vs. DC for regen is a
> consequence of the
> limitations of the particular motors and controllers
> available to
> hobbyists. Most EV series DC motors and controllers
> are built for fork
> lifts, whose buyers won't pay for regen; so they
> aren't built for it.
> Most EV induction AC motors and controllers are
> high-end expensive
> systems whose customers want all the bells and
> whistles possible; so
> they have regen.
>
> > An AC system is inherently much safer than a DC
> system.
>
> An "AC system" is the motor+inverter. A "DC system"
> is the
> motor+controller. Neither is inherently any safer.
> Both "run" when you
> command them to, even if the command was a mistake
> or result of a failure.
>
> A *system's* safety is defined by how it performs
> when it is all
> together, with all its backups and safety interlocks
> in place. You don't
> look at any one part and say "since this part can
> fail, the whole system
> must be unreliable."
>
> > A dropped wrench in the right spot can connect the
> motor to the
> > battery in a DC system and result in full
> throttle.
>
> True for *any* system. That's why you package things
> in boxes to make it
> impossible for a loose tool or screw to cause such a
> short.
>
> > Shorted silicon will launch the car before the
> safety logic has a
> > chance to realize what has happened and drop out
> the main contactors.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Only if the safety logic is badly designed.
>
> > The contactors open quickly, but far from
> "instantly."
>
> A contactor will open in under 20 msec (0.02
> second). How far will a car
> move in that length of time?
>
> This also assumes the contactor was already closed,
> which means the car
> was already operating, and presumably being driven.
>
> > In an AC system, the controller must be 100%
> functional for the motor
> > to even turn.
>
> Only if the controller has all the needed software
> and safety interlocks
> to insure that this is true. And, the same is true
> for any properly
> designed DC system.
>
> > There is only twice the loss in the controller,
> not six times the
> > loss.
>
> That's correct. An AC inverter has about twice the
> loss of a DC
> controller (2% vs. 1%, or 98% vs. 99% efficiency).
> However, the
> commutator in the DC motor also has another 1% loss
> -- this puts AC and
> DC systems right back at the same point for total
> losses.
>
>
=== message truncated ===
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From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> For those who care, in the USA a Skip is called a Dumpster.
I'm not sure that's right- I thought you found dumpster outside stores, I
thought they had lids. A skip only tends to be for building\renovation scrap
and doesn't have a lid
Bro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any exposure to air and moisture with aluminum wire produces a corrosion
problem. Even with corrosion inhibitors, it still happens. Much more in a
battery enviroment, where anything will corrode, given the right
circumstances.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcin Ciosek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
What kind of corrosion issues you have in mind?
OK, I agree that aluminum wire is hard to handle (bending etc.) but if you
use
Al bars that are thick and don't bend I don't see problem.
Especially for Li-Ion cell which tabs are made of aluminum and nickel (or
nicker coated metal). It's smaller potential difference than between Ni or
Al
and Cu.
Marcin
On Saturday 09 June 2007 16:43:47 joe wrote:
The real problem with aluminum wire is the expansion factor, and the
effect
it has on connections, as well as the corrosion issue.
Do not even consider using aluminum wire in an EV!!!!!!
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "chad plantenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: aluminum wire for EVs?
> one of the reasons aluminum has fallen out of disuse in the
> construction industry (aside from the larger guages) was bending
> fatigue. someone may have some better knowledge - but in a vehicle
> with constant road vibrations - i would think that aluminum would be
> expected to have a shorter servicable life (possibly premature
> failure?).
> chad
>
> On 6/7/07, Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Sure, you can use aluminum but to compensate lower conductivity you
>> need
>> to
>> increase wire thickness. I use factor of 1.4 to for replacing copper
>> with aluminum. If you use to thin wire you will loose some of energy
>> on
>> heat.
>>
>> Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Amen to that, Jim!!
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Man I have got to pay more attention to the EVDL.
Otmar is getting rich building 'zillas? Way to go
dude, how the heck did
you manage that?
Hey Peter all
At the risk of being accused an ass kisser and or
upgraded from evil twin to full blown list troll 8^o
I'd like to add some thoughts that I tend to keep
private.
I'll start saying that having just spent time with Oat
he's about as nice a guy as is out there! So if
nothing else it hurts to hear others talking about him
like some tabloid magazine! No wonder he doesn't
"make" time to contribute here at the EVDL any longer.
In general (if I can be butally honest here) EV'ers
can be a real thankless lot! Being the big billion
dollar companies haven't yet stepped up we all plod
along building home brewed convertions (at least the
rich do as I can not afford to build one yet myself
8^o I do not begrudge them for being able to though!
Now people like Otmar and Rich Rudman, Victor and
others stepped up and at great risk I'm sure founded
companies targeting the EV niche. If they become rich
and successful, AWESOME! Far better than the others
who came, did good things, and failed don't you think?
Please don't begrudge a fellow EVer for making a
living while providing a very useful products. As for
me, when I hear it, it sickens my heart!
I've been around long enough to know there are doer's
and there are talkers. I ask what do you all "do" to
promote EV's? DO you drive one? do you attend
meetings and EVent? do you talk to your neighbor (and
little old ladies walking down the street) about EV's?
Or do you bitch and whine how GM, bid oil, and now
maybe EVen Otmar, Rich, and Victor, (me?) screw you
out of your perfect EV by laughing our way to the bank
from oil company sized profits? LMAO!
It seems that EV'rs are a passionant lot, it's why we
are EVer's it's in the blood. This is mostly a good
thing but sometimes gets in the way of helping our
cause with time spent bickering over trivial details
stalling our progress.
Anyway thats my two rants worth. It is a simple
question though, are you a doer or are you waiting for
others to do it first? If the later don't bitch if
they make a buck.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
David Hankins wrote:
Can you point me in the direction of some resources for this goal?
I had the book 'the art of electronics' suggested to me and initially it
seems ok. it's used in uni teaching I think. on a more practical note I
have also been suggested the AVR (atmega8) microcontroller (for use in
the controller) and they are both cheap and easy to get going. I bought
an arduino board (usb board to program the chip)
and an hour later I had my first simple code running on the little
thing. it has various inputs and outputs and should be capable of a lot
of features with ease. well suited for embedded operation. boots itself
instantly after a powerfailure etc. don't really know much about it but
sounds good to me. they do chips for automotive too so I figure it's
fairly reliable
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm more inclined to produce a vehicle that the
> largest possible number
> of people could actually afford and use for regular
> driving. This is the
> way to make EVs mainstream as quickly as possible.
> That why the Sunrise
> project is going in the direction it is.
BTW Lee, how is the Sunrise project going? When can I
come see it? I am working on a BugEv from blue sky
design and thinking of making a two side by side of it
for the million dollar x challenge...Some contest that
has been mentioned here??
kEVs
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, I was wondering about how many EVs (3 or 4 wheeled private licensed
vehicles capable of 40 mph+) driven on a daily or near daily basis there
are, not to include NEV, golf cart, LSEV, public trolleys, trains, buses
I only know of 2 in my area of 1MM+ population. So are there only 500 or so
in the US, by extension?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: EV count
> Dear fellow EV enthusiast, this is quite the complex
> question.
> Start with the 1137 EVs listed on the EV discussion
> list:
> -some of these are hybrids.
> -some are not daily drivers; more like a science
> experiment on wheels. Do they count?
> -the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) in San Francisco is
> one of the most successful EVs around. Yet it is a
> public commuter. What about SFO's "MUNI" electric
> commuter buses?
> -what about golf carts. Technically, they are EVs.
> Yet I wouldn't drive one daily to work. So are you
> including LSEVs (low-speed EVs) and NEVs)
> (neighborhood electric vehicles)?
>
> I wish I could be of more help, but this is just the
> tip of the iceberg...
> I think the more important thing, is "What is the
> _growth_ of EVs in the US and worldwide?"
>
> peace,
>
>
> --- Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is there an estimate of how many EVs are in daily
> > (or near daily) use in the
> > USA?
> > JLC
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Folks
> Do I need to name the troll?
> I think not.
> OK... I'll be first.
> I vote "yes" for removal of the troll from the EVDL
> Anybody else?
Damn Roy!
I thought we were friends? I was kinda joking about
being upgraded from EVil twin to full blown list
troll! Can I stay if I promise to be good? 08^)
Just checking 8^P
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Troll Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tehben,
For range, AC propulsion's T-Zero, was around 100-120 acording to the
brochure. Their older Honda CRX that they had was about the same
range. They could both run 28 Optima Yellow Tops. Turning to page
68 of "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle", by Bob Bryant:
Daihatsu EV-1 car 109 miles top speed 55 mph,
Mazda EV-3 truck 127 miles top speed 46 mph,
Nissan EV-4P truck 188 miles top speed 54 mph
(all three on lead acid).
This indicates slower vehicles and the speed at which these ranges
were conceived is not given, nor is the driving conditons. The GM
EV-1 lead acid with the better Panasonic batteries is supposed to get
110 miles range. I have heard tale of 125 miles on the EV-1 with a
very soft foot driving.
With the combination of AC propulsion's T-zero and the GM EV-1 a lead
acid range of 110-120 miles is possible. Mabey more, but I don't know
for sure.
What I do know is that to get that range will take some engineering
and design work. I would suggest to use the most weight efficient AGM
lead acid batteries you can find. Batteries with a low Peukert number
and ones that do not sag under higher current draws.
For the motor and controller; I will not say AC or DC, but I will say
efficient. The two vehicles above used AC induction motors. You
might be able to do a step better with Brushless DC or Permanent
Magnet AC. Both of these motors and offer better efficiency than the
equivelant induction or wound-field DC machines. If cost is a factor,
there are also good solutions offered that use series-DC (a
wound-field) motors like a Zilla controller and a trans warp motor
just to name one. This will be less expensive, but it will still
carry a price.
Even this may not be good enough. It is important to choose the right
size of the motor for the job. To small of a motor will have I^2R
resistive losses under your load. To large of a motor and you will
have to concern your self with the core losses of the motor and the
added weight.
Either way it is sliced, EV range costs. You can always use good
design work and research to save money, but only up to a certain
point. Good Luck!
Respectfully,
Steven Arlint
On 6/10/07, Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-- sorry about the last one.. I keep forgetting to convert my damn
signature to plain text 8\ --
There has been a lot of discussion about speed and acceleration
lately which got me wondering what the longest range EV there is that
someone has converted using Lead batteries.
What kind of Lead batts did you use, what car did you convert and
what components i.e controller and motor did you use? (this vehicle
has got to be able to do 60mph and hold 2 people)
Thanks,
Tehben
-Lithium batteries are totally <accent>sweeet!</accent>... but
don't think about them, its bad for your morale-
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
Damn Roy!
I thought we were friends? I was kinda joking about
being upgraded from EVil twin to full blown list
troll! Can I stay if I promise to be good? 08^)
Just checking 8^P
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Troll Electric
Very funny Jim
(you are still the EVil twin) :^D
Roy LeMeur
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--- Begin Message ---
I even went to a IP-217A(ebay 260116968907) as opposed to an ME-35(ebay
140121916789) becuase the IP-217A is digital pulswidth and the me-35A
has to wait for zero crossing which at 60hz is 8.3 or 16.6 as minimum
settings.
They look the same! the IP217 needs 3phase and the me35 runs single phase.
I still need a head and cables
These are end of life equipment the HF25 takes it's place ($20K)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well there's also a galvanic corrosion issue when mated with certain
dissimilar materials. Nobody makes aluminum batt terminals.
Copper is pretty much in the middle of the electronegativity scale and
lead is not far away, but aluminum's one of the most negative potentials
on the list.
Danny
joe wrote:
Any exposure to air and moisture with aluminum wire produces a
corrosion problem. Even with corrosion inhibitors, it still happens.
Much more in a battery enviroment, where anything will corrode, given
the right circumstances.
Joseph H. Strubhar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Dan, all
-- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim Husted wrote:
> > I'll start saying that having just spent time with
> Oat
> > he's about as nice a guy as is out there!
> If he is so nice howcome he strongly refuses to show
> even a superficial
> picture of the innards of a controller when asked
> when he has alread
> shown it off on national tv.
> If he is so nice howcome he won't answer which
> transistors he uses so
> others could benefit from his experience and help
> promote EVs.
> If he is such a martyr making no money howcome he is
> so against telling
> the cost of the parts so we can see the sacrifice he
> makes for us all.
A very wise man once coined the phrase friends are
friends and business is business! As I can only
relate things from my own experiences (as we all do) I
thought I'd throw a little more bread.
As for me I really try to be an open book sharing what
has taken me decades to learn. Do you think this
helps me personally? I'd hope not! It does to a
certain extent in that it shows I do quality work and
know what I'm doing. After that though it becomes
better for the world but worse for me personally!
Pretty easy to follow 2 minus 2 is zero, ya with me?
As someone who runs a small shop and who "chooses" to
be open about it, as I am someone who feels the good
of the many out weight the good of the one or the few.
I will tell you that bill collectors don't give a rats
ass when you tell them you're trying to save the
world! Believe me I've tried!
Is it greedy of me to want a good living style? Is it
okay that I may keep things to myself so that I can
prosper and properly provide for my family?
Sorry to be the one to tell you this but the world is
a "why buy the cow when the milk is free" kinda place!
Now I'd like to point to the question "why are there
so many Otmar ass kissers as you state. The reason is
he's proven himself someone committed to quatlity
products and someone who is extreemly committed to
speading EV awareness. Not to mention him being one
of the EV pioniers who's back we stand on right now!
It's called respect 8^)
We are all self serving it's a fact, even mother
Teresa got some reward from helping others that filled
her inside. I make big sacrifices to the EV community
but I reap huge rewards in helping change the world
but that is my choice! Believe me the wife wants me
to raise prices, LMAO!
Anyway I guess I'd like to say, be patient the world
is changing but it doesn't happen over night! The
glass isn't half empty it's half full and filling as
we speak. And lastly to judge as you'd like to be
judged 8^) On this last one I'd be careful as there
are about a thousand people with rocks in their hands
and from what I can tell, they are looking at a glass
house right now 8^o
Hopefully this is well received 8^)
I see Roy put up a do not feed sign, so this will do
it for me as I don't want to take any chances 8^o
I kind of like it here 8^)
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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My read an article recently that said there are 700,000 "electric vehicles"
on the "road" today. Sound like a lot? Hardly when you consider that there
are 300,000,000 people in the US and most of them drive a car.
I will get the name of the publication and title of the article if I can.
I'm sure that electric trains were not included but I'll bet that anything
with a wheel and a battery was considered in that count, from Segways, to
NEV's to golf carts to converted ICE's.
Rich A.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: EV count
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:42:27 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Is there an estimate of how many EVs are in daily (or near daily) use in the
USA?
JLC
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On 6/10/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I had assumed that anyone into EVs were in it for the
idealisim since it is obviously easier to use gas cars but that
certainly wasn't the case.
Idealism only goes so far. I don't know what the exact case with
Otmar is and I've never met him, but I suspect he's trying to walk
the talk by making a living promoting electric cars. I make my living
installing PV systems, which is another area driving by alot of
idealism. However, playing the "I work doing good for the world, but
I don't make any money doing it" card works lousy at the grocery story
or my phone company or my mortage holder. The american economy does
not work on idealism, and to ask certain people to forgo a good
income, just because they work in a field that helps people or the
world really isn't fair.
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Correction
IBM used the suggested intel bus and neglected to patent it or
release a standard. That came later. This is how it came to be an open
standard, it was already out.
They tried to privatize a bus (micro-bus) and it flopped. The PCI
standard and the AGP and now PCIx all have standard comittees
Do you remember the localbus vs vesa wars, LOL both lost.
Beta vs VHS, blueray vs HD-DVD
Standards can be developed, adopted, or defacto. Many standards out
there were introduced by a single entity, most of them realized that
getting the standard adopted by others is/was key to success in the market.
Like I said about spaghetti. Throw it out there, if it sticks, it is
perfect.
VESA came about from a group of video card manufatures.
There is probably a "standard" for filler necks on cars. If you had to
got to stations that had only GM nozzles, would you buy a GM?
I don't mean to say we have to get everyone to agree before we move on
something, individuals could propose a standard, we could discuss it,
implement and test it, then grow into a standard.
like the current RFC to standard mechanism. Zigbee went through
this in the last 4 years. 1 company came out with it and suggested it be
a standard. they knew it would not make it without a standard. This grew
to three major players then nearly 20 companies each offering their
rendition following the RFC as a now defacto standard. Then a committe
of these companies (the ones that want to claim they are on the comittee
and are compliant) was formed and the 2 zigbee standards are now pretty
solid.
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We call both the big open ones and the little lidded ones dumpsters.
But isn't this a bit off topic?
On 6/10/07, brougham Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> For those who care, in the USA a Skip is called a Dumpster.
I'm not sure that's right- I thought you found dumpster outside stores, I
thought they had lids. A skip only tends to be for building\renovation scrap
and doesn't have a lid
Bro
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I suspected as much, however your statement was that a sepex motor has
less starting torque, while you meant that a system based on a sepex
is likely to have less starting torque.
Perhaps I'm nitpicking here but I found your statement to be somewhat
confusing and wanted to clear that up.
Thanks
-Peter
On 6/10/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> why is it that a sepex motor has less starting torque than a
> series wound motor? It seems to me that torque is a function of your
> field strength and the field strength is a function of the number of
> amp turns you have. So whether you run 10 amps through 100 turns or
> 100 amps through 10 turns the torque should be the same?
Yes, you are correct as far as you went. But carry your thinking a
little further along.
With a series motor, what is the limit on field strength? Practically
none! If you switch full pack voltage to a stalled series motor, the
current heads for infinity (1000 amps or more is readily possible).
Since this current flows through the field winding, the field strength
likewise heads for infinity. You get huge amounts of torque; enough to
win drag races, or break things.
With a shunt or sepex motor, your maximum field strength is limited by
how it is wound and your pack voltage. Once you get to full pack
voltage, that's all the field strength you can get. So, you have a
finite torque limit, much less than for a series motor.
A shunt motor normally has a field that can stand full pack voltage
continuously. It is most likely being used as a generator, where it may
be asked to deliver its full power continuously. But this means there is
almost no "overhead" to supply a higher peak power, because the field is
as high as it can go already.
A sepex motor is usually wound for a lower voltage field; around 1/4th
of pack voltage. Now you have the ability to over-voltage it by 4:1 to
get more torque. Better; but still not as strong as the series field.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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I have been actively involved building and driving
EV's since 02. I've met Oatmar, Rich Rudman, John
Wayland, Jim Husted, Roderick Wilde, and literally
hundereds of other EV ers. I have learned how little
I know compared to these men who are the core of the
EV doers so I seldom post here. I didn't read the
original Oatmar is getting rich post but who ever
wrote it obviously has never met the man and probably
doesn't even drive or work on EV's or he would know
better. No one who is connected to the EV world is
getting rich YET...I hope some of us do make it but it
is a real uphill battle and most of us are getting
poorer not richer, but it sure is fun
kEVs
> Jim Husted wrote:
> > Hey Peter all
> >
> > At the risk of being accused an ass kisser and or
> > upgraded from evil twin to full blown list troll
> 8^o
> > I'd like to add some thoughts that I tend to keep
> > private.
> >
> > I'll start saying that having just spent time with
> Oat
> > he's about as nice a guy as is out there! So if
> > nothing else it hurts to hear others talking about
> him
> > like some tabloid magazine! No wonder he doesn't
> > "make" time to contribute here at the EVDL any
> longer.
> >
> > In general (if I can be butally honest here)
> EV'ers
> > can be a real thankless lot! Being the big
> billion
> > dollar companies haven't yet stepped up we all
> plod
> > along building home brewed convertions (at least
> the
> > rich do as I can not afford to build one yet
> myself
> > 8^o I do not begrudge them for being able to
> though!
> >
> > Now people like Otmar and Rich Rudman, Victor and
> > others stepped up and at great risk I'm sure
> founded
> > companies targeting the EV niche. If they become
> rich
> > and successful, AWESOME! Far better than the
> others
> > who came, did good things, and failed don't you
> think?
> > Please don't begrudge a fellow EVer for making a
> > living while providing a very useful products. As
> for
> > me, when I hear it, it sickens my heart!
> >
> > I've been around long enough to know there are
> doer's
> > and there are talkers. I ask what do you all "do"
> to
> > promote EV's? DO you drive one? do you attend
> > meetings and EVent? do you talk to your neighbor
> (and
> > little old ladies walking down the street) about
> EV's?
> > Or do you bitch and whine how GM, bid oil, and
> now
> > maybe EVen Otmar, Rich, and Victor, (me?) screw
> you
> > out of your perfect EV by laughing our way to the
> bank
> > from oil company sized profits? LMAO!
> >
> > It seems that EV'rs are a passionant lot, it's why
> we
> > are EVer's it's in the blood. This is mostly a
> good
> > thing but sometimes gets in the way of helping our
> > cause with time spent bickering over trivial
> details
> > stalling our progress.
> >
> > Anyway thats my two rants worth. It is a simple
> > question though, are you a doer or are you waiting
> for
> > others to do it first? If the later don't bitch
> if
> > they make a buck.
> >
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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Heavy-duty has done this already. You can buy pretty much whatever
truck you want, with whatever engine you want, and whatever tranny
you want. It all hooks together. There are SAE standard bellhousing
and flywheel mounts. The engine controller is specific to the engine
but the vehicle interface is standardized (SAE J1939 CAN bus). The
communication protocol is standardized on there well enough that
in most cases, you just plug it in, and it works.
-Dale
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Jim Husted wrote:
[snip]
Hopefully this is well received 8^)
"Very" well received Jim.
I see Roy put up a do not feed sign, so this will do
it for me as I don't want to take any chances 8^o
I kind of like it here 8^)
Enough already!
It extremely rare that anyone gets tossed from this list, and you are not on
the list of likely candidates.
I think most (me included) would like you to continue to hang around :^D
Roy LeMeur
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Hi EVerybody;
How many EV's Out There? Well, I can run down a few that I know about in
Corrupticut(Connecticut).
State, CT a few Solectria Forces.Our DOT
Bolton High School; converted fiero, they hold a 144 mile range
record.On Led acid.
University of New Haven; Truck, S-10 I think, but they only bring it
out for Tour De Sol. Sigh!
Folks like us;
Dave Cover; Porsche 944 with BB-600 nicads. He made his debut at
Pof DC.
Jack Gretta, in Fond Memory,1921 2005after 30 plus years EVing in
the Old Saybrook, Chester area, two Renault Dauphines! And a 74 MG
Midget.Midget went to a loving home in Chicagoland, the Renaults were the
nucleus of " Feel Good Cars" in Canada. GodBless ya , Jack!!
Storm Conners; Suzuki, Jeep like vehicle Samari?
Bill Glickman; 74 VW Beetle, 120 volt system.Daily Driver for Bill
Ted Warner; nice S-10 conversion, daily driver for Ted.
Dave Olivera; Ford Ranger conversion, be on line soon.Working on
it, batterei racks,im my garage.
Fred Whitridge; VW Cabriolet Rabbit.
My 89 Jetta, 120 volt up and running pretty well, now.Coming soon;
A 87 Sentra, 90 volts and starting on a 97 Sentra.Not sure yet on Voltage?
Pretty slim pickin's, I know! We're working on it. CT isn't
exactly a hotbed of new tech, with ANYTHING! CA is light years ahead of us,
but we can be decent followers! Maybe as time grinds on more guyz will come
out of the woodwork? Working with a few hot prospects.
I may have left out a few? How should I know if guyz arent in the
Club/lList scene,actually DO EV's "on their own" almost EVerywhere.Scary
thought<g>!
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: EV count
Thanks, I was wondering about how many EVs (3 or 4 wheeled private
licensed
vehicles capable of 40 mph+) driven on a daily or near daily basis there
are, not to include NEV, golf cart, LSEV, public trolleys, trains, buses
I only know of 2 in my area of 1MM+ population. So are there only 500 or
so
in the US, by extension?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: EV count
Dear fellow EV enthusiast, this is quite the complex
question.
Start with the 1137 EVs listed on the EV discussion
list:
-some of these are hybrids.
-some are not daily drivers; more like a science
experiment on wheels. Do they count?
-the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) in San Francisco is
one of the most successful EVs around. Yet it is a
public commuter. What about SFO's "MUNI" electric
commuter buses?
-what about golf carts. Technically, they are EVs.
Yet I wouldn't drive one daily to work. So are you
including LSEVs (low-speed EVs) and NEVs)
(neighborhood electric vehicles)?
I wish I could be of more help, but this is just the
tip of the iceberg...
I think the more important thing, is "What is the
_growth_ of EVs in the US and worldwide?"
peace,
--- Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there an estimate of how many EVs are in daily
> (or near daily) use in the
> USA?
> JLC
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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