EV Digest 6879
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) New Subscriber
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: New Subscriber
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: RF/magnetic in BEV?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV digest 6876
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
6) Quick VEVCS poll
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Coin-operated outlets Re: Grass Roots charging infrastructure Was: Quick
VEVCS poll
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New Subscriber
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) article: Electro Brit: The Lightning Car Company GT
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Sorry to Dan and the list
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Is it just monday, or did the list size change?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery Pack
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by David Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Question about DMV
by "Tim Ireland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Question about DMV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Grassroots charging infrastructure
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New Subscriber
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: New Subscriber
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New Subscriber
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years, but I know very
little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested that my first
vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a Honda Del Sol.
Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles per charge as
my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth on a 80%
charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back and forth to
work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds out here
(people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live and work in
the hot Arizona sun.
My question for the day is what is the difference between different types of
batteries. And also what is "sag" And how do 12v 18v and 6v bat compare that
context.
Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's but they are not
yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I read that you
can only have so many in series..
(U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series connection up to
4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
Thanks for any help I will be reading and saving $$ for my components.
Dave Wells
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's but
they are not
yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I
read that you
can only have so many in series..
(U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series
connection up to
4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
The Valence batteries are available, they are just really expensive.
They have the U-Charge RT and the U-Charge XP. The XP can have
"Series connection up to 450 V maximum system voltage"
The prices are as follows the last time I checked:
U1-12RTL: $600 per unit
U1-12RT, U1-12XP: $860 per unit
U24-12RT, U24-12XP: $2030 per unit
U27-12RT, U27-12XP: $2550 per unit
UEV-18XP: $1935 per unit
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. it sounds like doing a little shielding around the controller and motor would be sufficient, though no one has
spoken up with an actual measurement of the field strength. The digital bits wont be close to the motor anyway.
JF
Loni wrote:
Considering that electric drives on hybrids are much more potent than
most full EVs on the road, I'd have to say there's no problem. I've
never heard a Prius owner complain about radio reception or hard-drive
damage yet. How's that for hard data?? :)
----- Original Message -----
Has anyone tested the level of RF and/or magnetic fields in their EV?
I am wondering about damage to non-shielded computers like consumer
laptops and their hard drives and such. Also radio interference is up
for question, and anything else? Trivial, some, a lot? Is a hybrid
like a Prius already a good test bed for this question do you think?
thanks
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I should have said in Boulder County, Colorado. In most places
in Colorado you don't need any emissions test at all. My diesel VW
rabbit is registered at a friends house where tests aren't required,
because it has a gas title, and the emissions place doesn't know what
to make of that.
On 6/12/07, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 11:00 -0700, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
wrote:
> In colorado, if a vehical is over 25 years old, you can get
> collector
> plates, and never have to have it inspected again (till you
> sell it,
> at least). So, since my donor is a 1974 pickup, I get it
> registered
> once, and they never need to know it's an electric. Unless
> I want
> to get the tax credit for converting it to electric.......
> then I have
> to get a certified police inspection to make sure it's really
> an
> electric now.
>
Unless you live in the metro Denver smog district. Then you have to get
a smog sticker ever 5 years. I just titled/registered my 1981 donor
with collector's plates, the sticker expires in 2012.
---
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, I have a little story to tell.
In high school, in vocational auto shop, I had an auto shop teacher that was a
mechanic and a Sea-Bee in World War II.
Rough guy. I guess you had to be with the guys we had in vocational auto shop.
One day, after I slathered up the battery posts really good, he got right in my
face, yelling and spitting, waiving his arms and pointing his finger up my nose,
"Now just why and the heck would you spread grease all over those battery
posts? Huh?"
Everyone stopped and looked. My turn, I thought.
"Cause you're supposed to!" I said.
"Everyone does - everyone knows that!"
"So all the gunk gets mixed up with all the grease and then you have a mess,
right?"
I said, "Er, well, but the grease stops that!"
"Ya, stops the baking soda, too."
He said, "Just clean the thing!"
"Nothing else!"
"No grape juice on it, either".
"You know it's just grape juice, right?"
"Ever heard of snake oil?"
"Huh?", I said.
I think of him when I wipe down my 18 batteries.
No grease, no vicks vapo-rub, no SPF 30 suntan lotion, no grape juice (purple
stuff) - I just keep the batteries clean.
Still, I have an uncontrollable urge to coat the terminals with something.
I'm sure it would help.
It's just that I can still hear the guy yelling 37 years later.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Use there is acid in that crud.
> You can apply coatings to that will prevent the crud build up.
> I think even Vaseline will do.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim Coate
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:16 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
>
> Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that
> forms on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
>
> In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
> sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid powdery
> or gooey stuff.
>
> Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that
> produces it use up the acid?
>
> The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove, handle
> and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
> electrolyte?
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This guy takes the cake as far as remote charging:
www.evnut.com
Click on "chargers"
> From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:10:35 -0700
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Quick VEVCS poll
>
> I bought a NEMA 10-50 plug and socket plus some hefty cable
> to make an extension cord from the stove plug in the kitchen
> to reach the driveway. I did already have someone pull down the
> full 50A for almost an hour without problem, so he could make it
> home without endangering his batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
> So, there are no coin-operated outlets. You either
> give the power away
> for free, or get your local utility to install a
> meter and sell it
> themselves (and they don't do coin-operated meters).
<snip>
While the above quote is taken a little out of
context, it isn't entirly true. I saw some at the
Dalas Airport last week, when I was there for a DSP
class. Hmm, come to think of it, I'm not sure if they
were coin operated, but they took credit cards. They
were there right next to the ipod vending machine (I
kid you not...). You swiped your card, selected an
empty seat, sat down, and it turned on the outlet
below the seat for the amount of time you paid for.
For charging cell phones, laptops, etc.
- Steven Ciciora
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years, but I know
> very
> little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested that my first
> vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
Dave
Welcome to the list. Where are you located. There are EVers all around and it
really helps to hook
up with someone in your area. As a first step, subscribing to this list was the
best thing to do.
> I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a Honda Del Sol.
A few people here have experience with Fiero conversions, to great success.
>
> Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
>
> This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles per charge
> as
> my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth on a 80%
> charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back and forth to
> work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds out here
> (people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live and work in
> the hot Arizona sun.
There will be lot's of advice coming your way, pro and con. Bottom line, learn
as much as possible
and then give it a try. I'll offer up a simple calculation that you can use for
roughly estimating
range. There are many variables, and I might not have all the abbreviations
right, but it will
give you sommething to chew on.
Suppose you have 10 12 volt batteries. This is a 120 volt traction pack. Pretty
obvious. For easy
math, we'll say they are rated at 100 amp hours at the 1 hour rate. Since most
trips will be an
hour or less, it gets' you in the ball park. So, 120 volts times 100 amp hours
means you have a
12,000 watt hour pack, or 12kWh. (this is where someone needs to correct my
terminology.) The last
part is how much does it take too move your EV down the road. A lightweight
efficient car might
use 200 watts per mile, 300 for an average EV, 400 for an electron guzzler.
So, take the 12Kw pack divided by 200 watts per mile, and you get 60 miles
range. For an efficient
EV. Draining your pack to empty. Killing your pack in short order. So if you
have lead acid
batteries, cut the mileage in half, only drain you pack to 50% depth of
discharge (DOD.) Nicads
might let you drain the pack more without penalty. But you might be able to
charge at work,
effectivly doubling your range. And if you don't have a super efficient EV you
need to adjust the
watts per mile figure.
Anyway, that's a quick gloss over of the basic range calculation. Gives you
something to play
with. I'm sure others will chime in to fix my mistakes. The list is a great
resource. There are
lot's of factors that will help you and hurt you. And if your time frame is 5
years, I'd bet
dollars to doughnuts that new battery technology will be available to give give
100 mile range.
Good luck.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An up-and-coming Tesla competitor:
http://jalopnik.com/cars/e_type/electro-brit-the-lightning-car-company-gt-268011.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have never clean my batteries with baking soda or any of that battery
cleaner that leaves a white residue. I cannot hose off the batteries while
they are in a enclosure.
The battery enclosure has a air exchange system which brings in about 500
CFM air by total enclose acid proof fans, that exhaust out the bottom
through a HD 2 inch PVC pipe like a exhaust does.
The air exchange keeps the water loss at a minimum and results in very
little corrosion. Only have to water the batteries every four months when I
do the balance charge.
I use to use Whitaker clear battery cleaner and protection, but I cannot get
it no longer. Someone mention that Windex with AMMONIA neutralize the acid
and it does, so that's all I use now.
What normally causes the corrosion on a battery terminal is the two
different metals making contact, such as a cadmium plated battery connector
or wire terminal with lead, copper or brass battery post.
In our electrical work, where we have to connect two different alloys
together, we use a bi-metal connector which prevents this corrosion. So I
remove my cable terminals which were plated with a cadmium alloy from the
lead post and install a gold plated battery clamp around the lead post and
bolted the link to it, making it a bi-metal connection.
If I was to make new links, I would crimp this type of battery clamp right
on the links, but I happen to get these gold plate battery clamps for $1.75
each from www.wirthco.com.
I now have no corrosion at all. Only the top surfaces conductive at times
when the batteries vent which I clean with the Windex-ammonia cleaner which
I then wipe down with a paper towel.
Roland
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Use there is acid in that crud.
> > You can apply coatings to that will prevent the crud build up.
> > I think even Vaseline will do.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jim Coate
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:16 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
> >
> > Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that
> > forms on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
> >
> > In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
> > sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid powdery
> > or gooey stuff.
> >
> > Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that
> > produces it use up the acid?
> >
> > The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove, handle
> > and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
> > electrolyte?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jim Coate
> > 1970's Elec-Trak's
> > 1997 Solectria Force
> > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OMG!
I never reply to the list. That last message was suppose to be off-list
My apology to Dan and to the List.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I "View source" so I don't miss anything, but still it seemed
weird. Viewing source sucks as the headers are in there and it is all a
jumbled mess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am pretty sure a flat access fee and re-embersment is ok.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow. I am so impressed! 0 to 60 in four seconds and doing that with only
2132 foot pounds of torque. That is unbelievably amazing!!! I am going to
run out and post this phenomenal feat everywhere I can think of. This will
turn the automotive world upside down. This ain't one of those wimpy DC cars
like Wayland has with only 772 foot pounds of torque. As the press release
says: "Each HPD40 drive unit offers maximum torque of 750 Nm (533 lb-ft)."
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:39 PM
Subject: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery
Pack
Sounds like some pretty insane performance! But what a price tag! US
$296,000
Tehben
UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery
Pack; More Models Planned
12 June 2007
Lightning
The Lightning GT.
A UK-based car company is introducing an all-electric luxury
sportscar powered by an Altair Nanotechnologies lithium-ion battery
pack and PML Flightlink in-wheel motors. The Lightning Car Company
(LCC) is targeting a range for its Lightning GT models of
approximately 250 miles and a top speed of 130 mph or 150 mph.
The top speed, according to the company, is a function of the motor.
This can be manufactured to suit at the expense of acceleration,
which in the GTS model is 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.
The electric Lightning uses a 35 kWh battery pack with 30 Altairnano
large-format NanoSafe batteries. These are currently similar to the
batteries used in the Phoenix Motorcars all-electric sport utility
truck (SUT). However, LCC plans to change to the higher spec cells in
development. Lightning developed the drive system, charge and
management system. As to a warranty for the pack, LCC says that it is
in discussion with Altairnano.
Lightning Car Company did not consider taking the Tesla approach by
assembling a battery pack from thousands of commodity small format
18650 cells. The company believes that approach to be a “backward
step”, with safety concerns, lower performance, and manufacturing and
technical complexity.
We believe Altairnano and their battery technology is leading
the world. The issue, however, is purely cost as we do not have tax
credits here in UK for our vehicles.
—Arthur Wolstenholme, Lightning Car Company
Altairnano batteries can be recharged in 10 minutes, as recently
verified for Phoenix Motorcars and the California Air Resources Board
by AeroVironment. The Lightning cars require no thermal management or
dedicated cooling system for the battery pack. The motor units are
cooled using onboard cooling systems.
The car uses four 120 kW Hi-Pa HPD40 electric wheel motors from PML
Flightlink. The Hi-Pa Drive unit combines the motor and drive
electronics in a single package. The units offer full regenerative
braking down to very low speed, full holding torque at zero speed, a
built-in brake resistor (for full charge regeneration situation), and
a wide speed range. (These are the same in-wheel units used by PML
Flightlink in the prototype plug-in series hybrid conversion of a
MINI, the MIN QED. Earlier post.)
Each HPD40 drive unit offers maximum torque of 750 Nm (533 lb-ft).
The torque curve is relatively flat, dropping off to around 600Nm at
top speed.
The body for the Lightning GT is built from a combination of carbon
fiber and Kevlar.
The price for the extended and top of the range models is around
£150,000 (US$296,000). The company is taking reservations for 2008
delivery. The company also says that it is also planning other types
of electric cars, but that it cannot comment further at this point.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release Date: 6/12/2007
6:39 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the other hand :).
I took auto shop class in high school, 1971. The teacher was a tough guy
with a flat top buzz cut. I was a long hair. He didn't like me much,
except that I always got A's and knew the answers. Heck, I'd already
rebuilt my first 327.
Anyway, me and a couple other guys were doing the obligatory engine rebuild.
One guy was torquing down the main bearing caps. Another guy read him the
torque specs from the book, for a motor with bigger bolts. Oops. At around
90 ft lbs, the bolt broke off in the block. The teacher heard the snap from
20 feet across the shop. He came over and started ragging on us for being
stupid, time to get out the drill and easy outs, how tough it would be to
get out a bolt broken at 90 ft lbs, etc.
I remembered something my next door neighbor taught me. Once the head is
broken off, the bolt isn't tight any more. I said "hold on a second" and
looked down the hole. It was a nice, jagged break. I dropped in a flat
blade screwdriver, turned out the remains of the bolt, and handed it to the
teacher.
He liked me even less after that :).
Moral of the story, the shop teacher isn't always right :).
Marty
P.S. In my gas guzzler, I wash the gunk off with baking soda in water with
an old tooth brush until the bubbling stops, then rinse. There aren't any
batteries in my EV project yet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:00 PM
Subject: RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
Oh, I have a little story to tell.
In high school, in vocational auto shop, I had an auto shop teacher that
was a mechanic and a Sea-Bee in World War II.
Rough guy. I guess you had to be with the guys we had in vocational auto
shop.
One day, after I slathered up the battery posts really good, he got right
in my face, yelling and spitting, waiving his arms and pointing his finger
up my nose,
"Now just why and the heck would you spread grease all over those battery
posts? Huh?"
Everyone stopped and looked. My turn, I thought.
"Cause you're supposed to!" I said.
"Everyone does - everyone knows that!"
"So all the gunk gets mixed up with all the grease and then you have a
mess, right?"
I said, "Er, well, but the grease stops that!"
"Ya, stops the baking soda, too."
He said, "Just clean the thing!"
"Nothing else!"
"No grape juice on it, either".
"You know it's just grape juice, right?"
"Ever heard of snake oil?"
"Huh?", I said.
I think of him when I wipe down my 18 batteries.
No grease, no vicks vapo-rub, no SPF 30 suntan lotion, no grape juice
(purple stuff) - I just keep the batteries clean.
Still, I have an uncontrollable urge to coat the terminals with something.
I'm sure it would help.
It's just that I can still hear the guy yelling 37 years later.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Use there is acid in that crud.
You can apply coatings to that will prevent the crud build up.
I think even Vaseline will do.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that
forms on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid powdery
or gooey stuff.
Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that
produces it use up the acid?
The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove, handle
and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
electrolyte?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--
Be very careful with baking soda and batts. The batteries has vent holes in the
caps, and if you get baking soda down in them, well, you don't want to know...
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
P.S. In my gas guzzler, I wash the gunk off with baking soda in water with
an old tooth brush until the bubbling stops, then rinse. There aren't any
batteries in my EV project yet.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an idea.
The EV club can rent a space in trailer/rv parks with power meters
and we share the power bill.
Instant infrastructure for longer trips.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is pretty much how we operate in Australia... Well, most states
anyway. If you have the original chassis or monocoque/unitary body then
it is generally considered to be the original vehicle. All other parts
can be replaced and it is still considered to be the same vehicle.
I think the case of dodgy registration of 'rebuilt' cars in the US that
was referred to in a previous post is actually the cars that hot rod
builder Boyd
Coddington was in court for. My understanding was that they were
building a brand new say... 1932 Ford hot rod from scratch, all parts
brand new including the chassis, and then registering them as an
original 1932 car. I think they were also using 'reproduced' titles
purchased from some other company when required.
Tim Ireland
South Oz
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, 13 June 2007 6:24 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Question about DMV
> How many parts can be replaced before it is a new car and not the
> original car that has been upgraded?
I think it depends on the vintage of the vehicle.
Real old vehicles often only need to have an original chassis to be
considered as and registered as an original and not a replica. I know
folks who've rebuilt wooden bodies on steamcars from scratch and
replaced most everything but the chassis only to end up with something
that is for all intents and purposes considered an original vehicle,
though heavily restored and effectively remanufactured. The more
authentic original parts, the easier the argument to the DMV. In the
case of my 1911 Hupp-Yeats chassis, I'll register it as an original car
when it gets completed and there should be no issue. It'll have original
chassis, wheels, steering, motor & drivetrain as well as an original
amp/voltmeter and master power disconnect switch at least. Even cars
with original bodies get the bodies discarded and replaced or massively
modified or repaired and yet the vehicle is considered original. The key
is to have an authentic ID stamp on the chassis/frame/body or whatever
and ideally, an actual registration (something I don't have for
mine) or better yet, a history of registration.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
1911 Hupp-Yeats Electric: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1018
...still looking for a few good parts...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard of people taking a (Salvage) chassis or
building something entirely from scratch that resembles
a certain type of vehicle somewhat, then go to a junkyard,
cut out 5 quare inch of sheet metal from a car with a
clear title and weld that into their car and re-register it
as the original car where they took the sheet metal from.
Of course the piece of sheet metal selected happens to
carry the VIN tag...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Ireland
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Question about DMV
This is pretty much how we operate in Australia... Well, most states anyway.
If you have the original chassis or monocoque/unitary body then it is
generally considered to be the original vehicle. All other parts can be
replaced and it is still considered to be the same vehicle.
I think the case of dodgy registration of 'rebuilt' cars in the US that was
referred to in a previous post is actually the cars that hot rod builder
Boyd Coddington was in court for. My understanding was that they were
building a brand new say... 1932 Ford hot rod from scratch, all parts brand
new including the chassis, and then registering them as an original 1932
car. I think they were also using 'reproduced' titles purchased from some
other company when required.
Tim Ireland
South Oz
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, 13 June 2007 6:24 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Question about DMV
> How many parts can be replaced before it is a new car and not the
> original car that has been upgraded?
I think it depends on the vintage of the vehicle.
Real old vehicles often only need to have an original chassis to be
considered as and registered as an original and not a replica. I know folks
who've rebuilt wooden bodies on steamcars from scratch and replaced most
everything but the chassis only to end up with something that is for all
intents and purposes considered an original vehicle, though heavily restored
and effectively remanufactured. The more authentic original parts, the
easier the argument to the DMV. In the case of my 1911 Hupp-Yeats chassis,
I'll register it as an original car when it gets completed and there should
be no issue. It'll have original chassis, wheels, steering, motor &
drivetrain as well as an original amp/voltmeter and master power disconnect
switch at least. Even cars with original bodies get the bodies discarded and
replaced or massively modified or repaired and yet the vehicle is considered
original. The key is to have an authentic ID stamp on the chassis/frame/body
or whatever and ideally, an actual registration (something I don't have for
mine) or better yet, a history of registration.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
1911 Hupp-Yeats Electric: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1018
...still looking for a few good parts...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just some experience from my "registered home charging location":
I have never, ever been visited by someone to charge (for free)
even though I am only a mile away from two major freeways and
have a shopping centre across the street.
Of course this is a residence and you need to pull into my
driveway to plug in, but besides the one time that I invited
someone over to charge and test my 240V 50A service and extension
cord, I have never seen anyone in my driveway to plug in.
Now, when EVs become more commonplace that could change of course
and if I really start seeing a significant increase in kWh usage
that it burdens me, then I may ask for a voluntary "parking fee"
for my driveway and allow them still to plug in for free.
If that does not work, then I could decide to make it mandatory
to pay either the parking fee or to gain access to a 240V outlet.
That should avoid any of the pitfalls.
I am not so much bothered by someone plugging into the 110V as
that cannot rack up more than 2kWh per hour, so you need to be
really persistent to achieve more than a $1 cost for me.
240V 50A is 12kW so that runs to the tune of more than 1 to
almost 4 dollar per hour, dependent on time of day.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
As with everything I imagine a small operation would survive for a time
until it grew big eneough to challenge the power industry.
For example it is illegal for a non commericial pilot to accept paying
passengers but it is legal for them to split costs for gas and such with a
non paying passenger.
A similiar barter system at cost could perhaps be worked out for electricity
charging at cost.
If you started charging for profit it would be a bigger problem.
The other issue is if you have a lot of cars pulling into a residential
location.
But again as long as it is a small operation it doesn't draw attention.
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 7:40 am, Richard Acuti wrote:
> Someone mentioned that it's illegal to resell electrical power.
>
> This is sort of throwing a crimp into our plans. I have some questions
> about that:
>
> Obviously you can let people roll up to your house and charge for free.
> How exactly do you charge for "electrical access"? Pay a flat fee to
> unlock a charging box?
>
> Would it be considered "selling" electricity if you accepted donations?
> What if you only take the amount of money for the power that they use
> (no profit)?
>
> What's the trick to getting around this?
>
> Rich A.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Pa
> rk&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&sc
> ene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave
Your best plan would be to work on your employer to allow charging at work.
Your required 35 miles is going to be hard enough to achieve with lead acid.
You will have to spend between 30 and 50 thousand for the batteries alone to
go 70 to 90 miles. It also sounds like you are going to want AC? You could
figure a 10 or 15% deduction when running that. Or as others has posted use a
cooler with ice or some other way without adding added drain on the pack.
Low cost new technology batteries are not here yet.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:57:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years, but I know
very
little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested that my first
vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a Honda Del
Sol.
Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles per charge
as
my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth on a 80%
charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back and forth
to
work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds out here
(people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live and work
in
the hot Arizona sun.
My question for the day is what is the difference between different types of
batteries. And also what is "sag" And how do 12v 18v and 6v bat compare that
context.
Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's but they are
not
yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I read that
you
can only have so many in series..
(U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series connection
up to
4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
Thanks for any help I will be reading and saving $$ for my components.
Dave Wells
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
35 miles is a long commute! My sympathies :)
While I don't disagree with charging at work being a good idea to
reduce battery requirements, I think you could a 90 mile range with
about $10K worth of lithium..
Going with ~200 Wh/mile for a small car like a Fiero or Del Sol,
let's say you need a 20kWh pack.
With lead acid, that'd be something like 25 Trojan T105s, which would
weigh over 1500 pounds - obviously not feasible in a small sports
car! And you wouldn't be able to get 200Wh/mile, that's for sure.
With lithiums, as an example you could use 40x 3.2V 160Ah LiFePO4
cells, which would come in under 500 pounds, and would cost ~US$10700
including freight. Might not be out of the question.
$30-50K is possibly what it'd cost if you used Valence batteries..
(But why would you!? ;)
-Ian
On 13/06/2007, at 1:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Dave
Your best plan would be to work on your employer to allow charging
at work.
Your required 35 miles is going to be hard enough to achieve with
lead acid.
You will have to spend between 30 and 50 thousand for the
batteries alone to
go 70 to 90 miles. It also sounds like you are going to want AC?
You could
figure a 10 or 15% deduction when running that. Or as others has
posted use a
cooler with ice or some other way without adding added drain on
the pack.
Low cost new technology batteries are not here yet.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:57:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years,
but I know
very
little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested
that my first
vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a
Honda Del
Sol.
Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles
per charge
as
my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth
on a 80%
charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back
and forth
to
work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds
out here
(people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live
and work
in
the hot Arizona sun.
My question for the day is what is the difference between
different types of
batteries. And also what is "sag" And how do 12v 18v and 6v bat
compare that
context.
Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's
but they are
not
yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I
read that
you
can only have so many in series..
(U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series
connection
up to
4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
Thanks for any help I will be reading and saving $$ for my
components.
Dave Wells
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
************************************** See what's free at http://
www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ian
The Fiero may be a small car but it is no light weight at 2800 pounds the
Del Sol is lighter maybe 300 pounds.
I should have said proven Low cost new technology batteries are not here yet
You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually cycle
tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by their
information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed for an
EV?
Yes Valance batteries are very expensive but they have established
themselves and they have a BMS. A123 is another battery that has been tested by
many.
No BMS and they are not inexpensive. What is a good buy? Expensive products
that last or less expensive products like I suspect of Thunder Sky that have
less performance and no where near the cycles.
The question that should be asked of Dave is how much does he have to budget
for this? Ian Do you have a link for the BMS?
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/13/2007 12:02:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
35 miles is a long commute! My sympathies :)
While I don't disagree with charging at work being a good idea to
reduce battery requirements, I think you could a 90 mile range with
about $10K worth of lithium..
Going with ~200 Wh/mile for a small car like a Fiero or Del Sol,
let's say you need a 20kWh pack.
With lead acid, that'd be something like 25 Trojan T105s, which would
weigh over 1500 pounds - obviously not feasible in a small sports
car! And you wouldn't be able to get 200Wh/mile, that's for sure.
With lithiums, as an example you could use 40x 3.2V 160Ah LiFePO4
cells, which would come in under 500 pounds, and would cost ~US$10700
including freight. Might not be out of the question.
$30-50K is possibly what it'd cost if you used Valence batteries..
(But why would you!? ;)
-Ian
On 13/06/2007, at 1:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hello Dave
>
> Your best plan would be to work on your employer to allow charging
> at work.
> Your required 35 miles is going to be hard enough to achieve with
> lead acid.
> You will have to spend between 30 and 50 thousand for the
> batteries alone to
> go 70 to 90 miles. It also sounds like you are going to want AC?
> You could
> figure a 10 or 15% deduction when running that. Or as others has
> posted use a
> cooler with ice or some other way without adding added drain on
> the pack.
>
> Low cost new technology batteries are not here yet.
>
> Don Blazer
>
>
> In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:57:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years,
> but I know
> very
> little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested
> that my first
> vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
>
> I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a
> Honda Del
> Sol.
>
> Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
>
> This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles
> per charge
> as
> my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth
> on a 80%
> charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back
> and forth
> to
> work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds
> out here
> (people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live
> and work
> in
> the hot Arizona sun.
>
> My question for the day is what is the difference between
> different types of
> batteries. And also what is "sag" And how do 12v 18v and 6v bat
> compare that
> context.
>
> Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's
> but they are
> not
> yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I
> read that
> you
> can only have so many in series..
> (U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series
> connection
> up to
> 4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
>
> Thanks for any help I will be reading and saving $$ for my
> components.
>
> Dave Wells
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at http://
> www.aol.com.
>
>
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
