EV Digest 7074
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: battery management and power distribution system design
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision description
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Insurance
by Jerry Wagner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
by "vehiculeselectriques.free.fr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fwd: battery management and power distribution system design
by "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NEDRA Nationals Raffle motor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: NEDRA Nationals Raffle motor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fwd: battery management and power distribution system design 2 (message
got truncated)
by "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A123 chemistry
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Insurance
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Insurance
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: parallel batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Potenza RE92/LRR tires
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) checking claims for couregges exe and tesla roadster
by "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zilla Radiator- Fan/ no Fan
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: forums redux
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: forums redux
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: NEDRA Nationals Raffle motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision description
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: forums redux
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Gulabrao,
Using pb-acid for 120 mile range with a maximum discharge to 50% DOD, which
is the preferred max discharge for long life and very little balancing, the
total vehicle weight will never catch up to the battery and net vehicle
weight.
If you can hold your maximum discharge to about 25% DOD, or 75% State of
Charge, then you will not need any battery management system. For the last
32 years, the maximum discharge rate is to 25% DOD for about 99% of the
time. The other 1% was testing once to 50% DOD.
This means I carry four times the AH battery I need for my range for a 25%
DOD, no BMS, and replacements average of 12 years.
For my vehicle of 7000 lbs, (use to weigh 8000 lbs with 300 AH batteries),
with 2400 lbs of batteries my range is limited to 50 miles at 50% DOD
maximum, but I recharge at 25% DOD.
To increase this range to 150 miles at 50 mph and only discharge the Pb-acid
to 50% for a 7000 lb EV, but the batteries would be 9600 lbs for a 1040 AH
cell plus the total weight of the vehicle would be about 14,000 lbs.
Even if reduce the net weight of the EV to 3500 lbs, it still takes 4320 lbs
of PB-acid which the vehicle total weight will now be about 7620 lbs using
520 AH battery. My first pack which was 90 cells 18 inches high, weigh 4500
lbs which was place in a 3200 lb vehicle had a range of 50 miles at 50% DOD
so it does make your 120 miles at 50 mph at 50% and these were proto type
cobalt cells which some of the li-ion cells are using now.
This EV before I received it, was test ran for 24 hours, running at a
average of 44 mph and fast charge every 60 minutes for 15 to 20 minutes at
charge amperes up to 200 amps. The EV ran 1056 miles in 24 hours with
maximum discharge rates of 30% to 50% DOD.
So the more batteries you carry, the weight go's up, the more power it takes
to move, the range barely increases.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 12:16 AM
Subject: battery management and power distribution system design
> Hello All,
>
> I want to know what kind of battery management system or power
> distribution
> system has be constructed in order to meet the following criteria, also
> what
> cost will be incurred in it and can it be made at home,
> 1. instead of all batteries discharging equally together can there be a
> system in which small sets of 2-3 batteries discharge more than the rest
> of
> the pack without the overall pack voltage becoming down.
> 2. these small sets once discharged are disconnected and then are charged
> by
> an external means like an alternator or solar panels
> 3. once fully charged they are again connected to the main pack and
> another
> small set which has become discharged takes their place at the charging
> port
> 4. for this setup which battery technology is more suitable li-ion ni-mh
> pb-acid ?
>
> Need for the above setup
> 1. to make a conversion that can go atleast 120 miles @ 50 mph sustained
> using pb-acid batteries off the shelf
> 2. this conversion will be the ultimate urban animal
> 3. if this is sucessful then to market the system to the global audience
>
> Thank you
> your guidance is most valued
> Gulabrao
>
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Victor, did you receive the off-list Email that I sent you?
Bill Dennis
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That's interesting. I have been with Allstate Insurance for over 25 years, 10
of which have been in Florida. I was told that they would not insure my pickup
after I converted it to electric power. I paid $740 per year as an ICE with no
collision coverage.
I contacted The Hartford (thru AARP) and had no problem insuring the truck. I
also got custom equipment coverage for $10,000. The total with Hartford is
$680.
They get my vote, Jerry Wagner
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 28, 2007 7:24 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Insurance
>
>Howdy Bart.
> I'm with Allstate. They sell a "stated value
>policy", so that if I get totaled, I get the $8,500
>cost of my on-board charger, batteries, controller,
>DCDC, etc., not the $3,000 a gas-burner Civic is
>worth.
>It merely requires that I have saved receipts and can
>prove the value is correct. I keep the same 50/100
>coverage or whatever we currently have. It costs me
>the same or less than a regular policy. You are wise
>to ask.
>peace,
>
>--- Bart Grabman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I'm coming along with my project, and got to
>> thinking today about insurance
>> prices, and how they might differ vs. my Saab.
>>
>> I just had a couple questions: What kind of coverage
>> do you have on your
>> vehicle? What company do you use? How much do you
>> pay?
>>
>>
>_________________________________________________________________
>> Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play
>> Chicktionary!
>>
>http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>>
>>
>
>
>Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? For $20 DVD you can purchase footage of my
>'92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
>Learn more at: www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
>Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
>Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
>knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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>
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Talk about trust, friendship, and confidence in a technology. Loaning a
battery pack for someone to race with?
What do you think if someone walked up to their best friend and said can
I borrow your car this weekend, I want to see what it will do in the
quarter mile.
You guys are a great inspiration.
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I don't think the offline NEDRA raffle is a good idea as the idea is to
get people out there. (Fresno - Portland 755 miles :-( )
But if Jim wants to have a HiTorque quarterly raffle, That might be a
really cool idea.
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If we are voting (again) I am gonna vote to keep this list format
complete with digests. I tend to read my email at home when I wake up in
the morning and when I get home from work. It is nice to have the
digests. When I party too hard and sleep in I will forward the single or
two digests to my work email or copy it to my phone and take it with me.
I have broadband and I am not 'Crazy' (yet)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
I want to know what kind of battery management system or power
distribution system has be constructed in order to meet the following
criteria, also what cost will be incurred in it and can it be made at
home,
1. instead of all batteries discharging equally together can there be
a system in which small sets of 2-3 batteries discharge more than the
rest of the pack without the overall pack voltage becoming down.
2. these small sets once discharged are disconnected and then are
charged by an external means like an alternator or solar panels
3. once fully charged they are again connected to the main pack and
another small set which has become discharged takes their place at the
charging port
4. for this setup which battery technology is more suitable li-ion
ni-mh pb-acid ?
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I agree that there are an infinite number of combinations but I thought
the point to a lithium ion cell is the use of an intercalation
principle, the reverseable stuffing of lithium ions into the structure
of the anode and cathode. The electrolyte carries the lithium ions but
is NOT part of the cells half reactions.
The electrolyte can therefore interact with the charge acceptance
forcing a higher voltage to get full charge and more voltage sag on
discharge but it will not change the 'Open Circuit' voltage of a charged
cell.
One of the failure modes of lithium-ion cells is the degrading of the
electrolyte that then plugs up the pores in the electrode, reducing the
number of lithium ions that can fit and thus the capacity. Nano
particles in the precursors used to make the electrodes help create tiny
holes that the lithium ions can fit but the components of the
electrolyte can't plug up. The altered chemistries in the electrode have
allowed a change in electrolyte that is more stable and less flamable.
I have heard from the original MIT papers that because you don't have to
plan for lost capacity with excess lithium, the LiFePo4 can starve the
electrolyte of lithium and produce a cell that runs out of lithium on
full charge. Safer.
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The key issue is to make sure that they know what they are insuring. If
they write the policy for a regular 82 Honda, then that is all they would
owe replacement on if the don't deny a claim entirely.
Stated value policies are without a doubt the way to go. As Bob pointed
out, Allstate offers one, and I have had a friend collect on nearly $11k in
repairs to a Datsun 510 because he had one on it.
- Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Grabman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:59 AM
Subject: Insurance
I'm coming along with my project, and got to thinking today about
insurance prices, and how they might differ vs. my Saab.
I just had a couple questions: What kind of coverage do you have on your
vehicle? What company do you use? How much do you pay?
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It all comes down to the agent - a good agent will insure anything, any way
you want, as long as you pay the price!I have Farmers Insurance, and my
agent didn't bat an eyelash when I told her that the vehicle was electric.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Dale Ulan wrote:
what about having several strings that are
either higher or lower in voltage than the motor+controller
needs, and a buck/boost bidirectional converter for each string,
dumping power into (or out of, in the case of regen) the main
'bus'... could this work?
Yes, I think it could. We've discussed it before. It's a hybrid battery
pack, with two different types of batteries. Because in general the two
packs are different, you can't just connect them in parallel, and need
some means for controlling the rate that each charges and discharges.
This could be a bidirectional converter as you suggest, or two motor
controllers and two chargers.
You probably don't want the converters to be boost-buck, as this is one
of the less efficient types. But you could arrange things so pure buck
(pack voltage always higher than motor voltage) or pure boost (for
charging, where motor or AC line voltage is always less than pack
voltage) was sufficient.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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How about the Nokian NRH? It is designed as a low rolling resistance
tire (with an accompanying low mileage rating, 50K miles), is rated
for 51 psi max, and is available in the eastern U.S. as far as I can
tell. I priced them at tirefactory.net, $83/tire. My next question,
and yours probably, is what's the rolling resistance coefficient.
Don't know, maybe I'll email Nokian.
Jerry
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Dennis,
I can't read your post. Is it me or you?
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 9:11 am
Subject: Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
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________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
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Dennis,
I can't read your post. Is it you or me?
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 9:11 am
Subject: Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
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________________________________________________________________________
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from AOL at AOL.com.
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Hello all,
I was browsing through some webpges when i came across a article about
the couregges EXE,
how on earth is it possible to get 200 miles from an li-ion pack @ 370
v when the ev calculator suggests a range of only 120 miles
Can someone please explain ?
Same is true for the tesla roadster
how can it give 150mph and 200 miles at the same time ?
Thanks
Sushrut
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Thanks- for the info, i guess cooler for the hills will be better.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 9:00 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
I just had some problems with an undersized pump and a no fan
radiator.(tranny cooler) It had lasted a year but I noticed that
when it
was warm, the zilla was fine untill I get to a light, then pulling
away
from the light it would go into thermal protect(just about snapped
my neck)
BTW, Isn't that pump from ev source awsome!
I went to that pump and switched to the smaller radiator like he
had on
his site and added a 120mm 12V fan. on the lowest speed on the hotter
days, after finding all the red lights on the way home. It overheated
once. I turned the fan up to speed two and all is well now. Doesn't
even
get warm to the touch.
Remember this
if running adds 10W/min of heat and accelerating adds 100W/min of
heat if you are adding 150W/5min and are pulling out 30W/min you will
not overheat, but if you are only pulling out 29W/min that extra
watt/min will acumulate. The next stoplight the temperature difference
in the zilla heat exchanger is less so more flow will be required to
take out the watts of heat and the watts of heat from the last
cycle. It
can get out of hand pretty quick. The fan lets the system catch up the
pulses of heat from the accelerations at the stoplights when you
aren't
moving air past the radiator.
You need it.
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On 27 Jul 2007 at 16:57, john fisher wrote:
> To the folks with dial-up only - sorry.
As of 2006, one-quarter of US internet users still used dialup. No offense
meant, but it seems to me that that's a pretty significant number to just
say "sorry."
That said, the archive you point to
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl
may be useful to some. Is it permanent, or experimental? If the former,
I'll add a link to it on the EVDL help page.
> Its not at all far-fetched to expect a forum to also send email like a list.
Sure. Nabble has been providing this service for some time. It's a mailing
list archive and forum front end. Users can search and read existing posts,
and can post from the archive (though they still have to be subscribed to
the EVDL). Nabble obfuscate email addresses.
http://www.nabble.com
It seems to be a robust system. The only downside I can see is that it's ad-
supported; it tacks Google text ads onto the end of each post. If folks are
really that keen on having a forum front end, I suppose I could sign up the
EVDL for it.
Here's a sample Nabble forum from a mailing list :
http://www.nabble.com/Fractal-f495.html
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
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David,
I asked Gmane to set this service up in April. My primary interest was
being able to read the list via a newsgroup reader, rather than the
mediocre digests. The archive should be permanent.
Keith
On 7/28/07 12:25 PM, David Roden wrote:
That said, the archive you point to
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl
may be useful to some. Is it permanent, or experimental? If the former,
I'll add a link to it on the EVDL help page.
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Hey all
I thought I'd throw in some history on how these
raffle motors came to be. It started with Shawn and
Matt asking me if I might have a small motor I could
work up so they could award it as a prize at the
Battery Beach EVent, in return I'd get my logo on a
shirt and the brochure 8^)
It was a great way for me to get some advertising
without breaking my bank account, with the added perk
of someone winning a motor to tinker with.
As Chip's Power of DC approached I got a call from
Chip wondering it I might have another small motor
that could be worked up 8^) I can't remember exactly
how it came to be, but Chip decided to raffle it off
to help pay for the EVents expenses vs as a prize. I
thought it was a better idea than it being given to
the person who already had the fastest, or the best in
show, or what EVer, I mean why do they need it? It
needs to go to the slowest or the guy who doesn't have
a motor already, at least that's my thoughts on it.
Many of these cores have been given to me by Wayland
who finds them in the scrap bin at work. Funny how
John pays me to fix his fried motors with fried
motors, LMAO! Actually this is one of my favorite
things about this community and how many of us try to
pay it forward a bit (we all have our niche and
talents) as most of us beg, borrow, and steal our way
to EV ownership 8^o In fact I wouldn't have a
website if it weren't from the awesome generousity of
Chris Robbinson who set it up and hosts it for me 8^)
and it sure beats that free site thing I tried to
start out on, hehe, Thanks Chris! I in turn try to
post what I've learnerd there 8^)
To be honest I'm not really sure how these raffles
have worked and believe that they generally go to help
that particular "local" EVent and not to a larger
NEDRA fund, but I could be wrong here.
I believe the spirit of these motors is to help at a
local level, award at a local level, and support at
the local level 8^) At PIR for example there were
regular ICE race fans / attendies who bought tickets
in hopes that they might obtain their first EV
component last year 8^) In fact these smaller motors
make great first time projects for anyone to work with
and not just for pre-existing EV'ers.
An online raffle (for a general NEDRA fund raiser)
does have some worthy merit and I'd be into working
something out if they feel it worthy a try, there
might be laws and rules that would have to be overcome
though that lie hidden that could bite them / me in
the butt also (darn near have to worry about
EVerything these days).
Sorry I got long winded as I really just wanted to say
that the spirit of these motors is really a full
circle proccess, as Wayland and Tim garbage dive the
cores, throw them at me where I fix them up and pass
them to an EVent where in turn it becomes property of
someone in the community. Call me a dork but I think
that's the coolest thing to be part of 8^)
Couple last thoughts here,
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think the offline NEDRA raffle is a good
> idea as the idea is to
> get people out there. (Fresno - Portland 755 miles
> :-( )
>
> But if Jim wants to have a HiTorque quarterly
> raffle, That might be a
> really cool idea.
Between the different NEDRA EVent's it's close to
being a quarterly raffle thing already 8^P As a small
shop it'd be nice to eventually start building at
least a few for sale 8^o As NEDRA grows I'll have to
pick and choose how many I can afford to do, EVen with
free cores they cost me a couple hundred in shafts,
bearings, and brushes, etc, and a fair amount of time.
I bet I'm on Mikes list of sponsors for an Alaska
EVent.
Secondly Jeff, Oregon to Joliet = 2000 miles, for
rain! I could have stayed here in Oregon for rain 8^o
I did get to hang out with a bunch of cool Ever's
though and for me I ended up still having a great
time. In fact Mr. lead foot, you'd be able to make
this drive in 7 hours, or so I've heard 8^P
As for you Mike, what the heck you need this motor
for? There is no way you could stuff this motor into
Brandon's power wheel so forget about it you Greedy
motor hog! 8^P LMAO
Anyway regardless of how they decide to slice it, this
will be a much bigger and funner motor than I'm
usually able to offer and is my way of showing support
while having some fun doing it, and again much love to
John and Tim for snatching these units from the jaws
of deathwhich has allowed me to do this 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware
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The speed sensor is included as an optional part of the system
if you choose to buy that option. Currently this is the only
config offered - later I will make lite (cheaper) version
with reduced features set. No speed sensor there (and of
course no Eh/mile efficiency data available either).
Victor
Joseph T. wrote:
How is the speed sensor installed? As you can see, I'm no techie...
On 7/28/07, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The diameter of the PCB is 73.5mm, diameter of the analog bar
(outer edges of LEDs) - 58mm. Outside diameter of the enclosure
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> As of 2006, one-quarter of US internet users still used dialup. No offense
> meant, but it seems to me that that's a pretty significant number to just
> say "sorry."
That is a shocking number!
I will try to summarize this:
In the '90s the government gave Bell South (and its child companies)
the right to charge more for services on the promise that they would
rewire the US with Fiber Optic Cable. 86 million households were to
have 45mbps connections by 2006. They never delivered anything...
Now the US is like number 16 on network speed in the world and falling fast.
Since then the phone companies have collected over $200 billion in
higher phone rates.
...another shocking instance of big business trumping American citizens.
--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
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