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EV digest 7075

Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:48:36 -0700

                            EV Digest 7075

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision description
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Fwd: battery management and power distribution system design
 2 (message got truncated)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision description
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: forums redux
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  7) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: NEDRA Nationals Raffle motor
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: forums redux
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: checking claims for couregges exe and tesla roadster
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Insurance
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: NEDRA Nationals Raffle motor
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - wide vs narrow
        by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) New Lion Electric Vehicles.  Starting under 30k.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Insurance
        by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Lightning Bug
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 19) Re: checking claims for couregges exe and tesla roadster
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 20) Re: NEDRA Nationals Raffle motor sponsorship
        by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) My EVolution and entertaining happy thoughts / was raffle motor
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Zilla Radiator- Fan/ no Fan
        by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: New Lion Electric Vehicles.  Starting under 30k.
        by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
Bill, yes I did, will reply.

Victor

Bill Dennis wrote:

Victor, did you receive the off-list Email that I sent you?

Bill Dennis

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hello to All,
Grrrrrr!!! This truncated stuff has me frustrated! I was not able to read Dennis Berube's post today, nor this one from Robert. David Roden says I'm off about the ratio of truncated emails coming in from the EVDL, but whatever it is, it is something that started a few months ago, and seems to be getting worse.
I use Thunderbird as my email system, but I have no idea of how to set it so I can once again, enjoy the EVDL. If anyone else using Thunderbird can help me make a change, I'm listening.
Right now, I'm getting to the point of signing off the EVDL if this can't get corrected. 'Somebody' somewhere changed something about the EVDL in the past few months, and it's a change for the worse. 

See Ya....John Wayland

ROBERT GOUDREAU wrote:


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*         ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED---            *
*     This post contains a forbidden message format       *
*  (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting)  *
*       Lists at  sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT         *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting  *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sure -is- frustrating John. I was able to go to the EVDL Digest that just came in. 

There also appears to be no credit given for the source of the article.

A mystery.

So... here it is in plain text-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ROBERT GOUDREAU wrote:
PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Straddling a 280-kilogram motorcycle, Scotty
Pollacheck tucks in his knees and lowers his head as he waits for the
green
light. When he revs the engine there's no roar. The bike moves so fast
that
within seconds all that's visible is a faint red taillight melting in
the
distance.

Pollacheck crosses the quarter-mile marker doing 156 m.p.h. (251 km/h);
he's
travelled 402 metres in 8.22 seconds, faster than any of the gas-powered
cars, trucks or motorcycles that have raced in the drag sprints on this
weekend at Portland International Raceway.

It's particularly impressive given Pollacheck is riding a vehicle that
uses
no gasoline and is powered entirely by lithium-ion batteries.

Electric vehicles are making their presence felt at amateur drag races
across the United States, challenging gas-powered cars and motorcycles.
The
"amp heads," computer geeks and tree-hugging environmentalists driving
the
electron-powered vehicles are starting to kick some major rear end.

Pollacheck and his bike - dubbed the KillaCycle - are part of a growing
movement that's exploiting breakthroughs in battery technology and could
soon challenge the world's fastest-accelerating vehicles in the
$1-billion
drag-racing industry.

"In professional drag racing I expect to see the electrics eventually
pass
up the fuel dragsters," said Dick Brown, president of AeroBatteries,
which
sponsors White Zombie, the world's quickest-accelerating street-legal
electric car - a 1972 white Datsun 1200.

"Electric gives you instant torque whereas gasoline you have to build
up,"
Brown said. "As we learn to manage it, you're going to see some really
amazing performances."

Brown believes electric vehicles will challenge the top drag-racing
records
within five years.

The KillaCycle runs on 990 lithium-ion battery cells that feed two
direct
current motors, generating 350 horsepower. The bike accelerates from
zero to
60 m.p.h. (97 km/h) in just under a second - faster than many
professional
gas-powered drag motorcycles and within striking distance of the
quickest
bikes that run on nitromethane. With that hyper-potent racing fuel,
riders
can do 60 m.p.h. in 0.7 seconds.

Bill Dube, KillaCycle's owner and designer, likens the sleek, hulking
bike
to an oversized household appliance.

"This is like a giant cordless drill with wheels," said Dube, who
designs
pollution measurement instruments for the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric
Administration.

Except for the batteries he receives from sponsor A123 Systems, Dube
pays
the costs of his racing team - about US$13,000 a year - out of his own
pocket.

"We have a chance of actually taking away some nitromethane records,
perhaps
the overall record," said Dube.

In drag racing, two vehicles accelerate from a standstill and race over
a
straight quarter-mile track. The National Hot Rod Association oversees
the
racing of amateur street-legal cars on hundreds of tracks around the
country
as well as the professional drag circuit.

In the most popular professional division, Top Fuel Racing, dragsters
with
large rear wheels and narrow bodies reach speeds exceeding 330 m.p.h.
(530
km/h) in 4.6 seconds. Drivers are practically flattened against their
seats
during their short ride, meeting more g-forces than astronauts during a
space shuttle launch.

The National Electric Drag Racing Association holds just four races a
year.
But electric drag racers are increasingly showing up at drag strips
across
the country to show what they can do.

Their vehicles are posting faster and faster times at amateur meets, but
they still have a ways to go before matching professional world record
times. The fastest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle is the
KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane
world
record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last year.

And larger electric vehicles have even more catching up to do. White
Zombie's best time in a quarter-mile is 11.46 seconds - that's quicker
than
a 2007 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6, one of the quickest production
vehicles
available to the general public - but it's still 6.4 seconds away from
the
Top Fuel record.

Not everyone in the gas-powered crowd is convinced electric vehicles are
the
next big thing.

"I certainly don't see them challenging for professional records in the
near
future," said Graham Light, senior vice president of racing operations
at
the NHRA. "We don't have a blind eye to new technology, new innovations
and
new methods of doing things" but "at this point I don't see a strong
movement toward electric cars."

But electric vehicle racers say people like Light are out of the loop.
They
say rapid advances in battery technology will give EVs a shot at
drag-racing
records.

"This is a disruptive technology and there is a lot of room for
improvement
in this area," said Ric Fulop, founder and vice president of business
development for A123, the maker of KillaCycle's batteries.

In December, the KillaCycle will receive a second-generation battery
pack
that will have twice as much juice as its current 374-volt system,
giving it
close to 1,000 horsepower. Fulop said he believes the KillaCycle can
break
the drag racing motorcycle record within the next year.

Electric drag racers are test-driving the technology that will
eventually
spill over into mass production cars, analysts say.

Today's hybrid cars, like Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius, use nickel metal
hydride batteries, not more expensive lithium-ion batteries.

But cost of lithium-ion is expected to drop. In addition, the latest
generation of batteries offers a higher rate of conductivity and takes
less
time to charge - the KillaCycle's battery pack can be juiced up in five
minutes. New materials also mean the battery is less prone to
overheating
and explosions - a danger of earlier generations.

Experts say lithium-ion batteries that will power a car tens of
thousands of
kilometres over their lifetime and deliver more horsepower are on the
horizon.
10:35ET 27-07-07



~~~~~~


Roy LeMeur

_________________________________________________________________
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!  http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
gulabrao ingle wrote:
What kind of battery management system or power distribution system has be constructed in order to meet the following criteria? 

1. Instead of all batteries discharging equally together, can there be
   a system in which small sets of 2-3 batteries discharge more than
   the rest of the pack without the overall pack voltage becoming down?
As a rule, you *want* all batteries to discharge equally, because this maximizes your range and battery life. What is the reason that you want to discharge them by different amounts?
2. These small sets, once discharged, are disconnected and then are charged by an external means like an alternator or solar panels.
This is possible. But the normal method would be to leave the batteries connected, and simply charge them in place with an isolated charger or equivalent device.
3. Once fully charged, they are again connected to the main pack, and another small set which has become discharged takes their place 
   at the charging port.
Again, it's possible. I tend to think you wind up with a large number of high-current switches, which makes such an approach more expensive and less reliable than using isolated chargers.
4. For this setup which battery technology is more suitable li-ion ni-mh pb-acid?
It's hard to tell. Any method that results in deeper discharges for each battery tends to shorten that battery's life, regardless of the chemistry. 

> Also, what cost will be incurred in it and can it be made at home?
You would have to design and build the system before such a question could be answered. The best way to experiment to see if such a system would actually work would be to build one using switches, and manually operate it to achieve your desired result. Then compare the results to a "control" system that doesn't do it to see if you method is any better. 

If it proves better, then set out to automate the process.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
"later I will make lite (cheaper) version
with reduced features set. No speed sensor there (and of
course no Eh/mile efficiency data available either)."

Just some advice, in my very humble opinion. If I were you, I wouldn't
get rid of the speed sensor in the lite version (Unless, of course, it
is a major part of the price.) Anyone who has an EV, will want info
about its power consumption. Getting rid of the wh/mile, is like
getting rid of the big mpg display in a hybrid!

On 7/28/07, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bill, yes I did, will reply.
>
> Victor
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > Victor, did you receive the off-list Email that I sent you?
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
> >
> >
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
    David> That said, the archive you point to

    David> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.recreation.cars.evdl

    David> may be useful to some.  Is it permanent, or experimental?  If the
    David> former, I'll add a link to it on the EVDL help page.

Gmane has been around for several years.  I don't think they are going
anywhere.

-- 
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks for that.
I auto-delete truncated messages; and hate feeling that I'm missing out.
-- 
Manny

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

On 7/28/07, Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It sure -is- frustrating John. I was able to go to the EVDL Digest that just
> came in.
>
> There also appears to be no credit given for the source of the article.
>
> A mystery.
>
> So... here it is in plain text-
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ROBERT GOUDREAU wrote:
> PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Straddling a 280-kilogram motorcycle, Scotty
> Pollacheck tucks in his knees and lowers his head as he waits for the
> green
> light. When he revs the engine there's no roar. The bike moves so fast
> that
> within seconds all that's visible is a faint red taillight melting in
> the
> distance.
>
> Pollacheck crosses the quarter-mile marker doing 156 m.p.h. (251 km/h);
> he's
> travelled 402 metres in 8.22 seconds, faster than any of the gas-powered
> cars, trucks or motorcycles that have raced in the drag sprints on this
> weekend at Portland International Raceway.
>
> It's particularly impressive given Pollacheck is riding a vehicle that
> uses
> no gasoline and is powered entirely by lithium-ion batteries.
>
> Electric vehicles are making their presence felt at amateur drag races
> across the United States, challenging gas-powered cars and motorcycles.
> The
> "amp heads," computer geeks and tree-hugging environmentalists driving
> the
> electron-powered vehicles are starting to kick some major rear end.
>
> Pollacheck and his bike - dubbed the KillaCycle - are part of a growing
> movement that's exploiting breakthroughs in battery technology and could
> soon challenge the world's fastest-accelerating vehicles in the
> $1-billion
> drag-racing industry.
>
> "In professional drag racing I expect to see the electrics eventually
> pass
> up the fuel dragsters," said Dick Brown, president of AeroBatteries,
> which
> sponsors White Zombie, the world's quickest-accelerating street-legal
> electric car - a 1972 white Datsun 1200.
>
> "Electric gives you instant torque whereas gasoline you have to build
> up,"
> Brown said. "As we learn to manage it, you're going to see some really
> amazing performances."
>
> Brown believes electric vehicles will challenge the top drag-racing
> records
> within five years.
>
> The KillaCycle runs on 990 lithium-ion battery cells that feed two
> direct
> current motors, generating 350 horsepower. The bike accelerates from
> zero to
> 60 m.p.h. (97 km/h) in just under a second - faster than many
> professional
> gas-powered drag motorcycles and within striking distance of the
> quickest
> bikes that run on nitromethane. With that hyper-potent racing fuel,
> riders
> can do 60 m.p.h. in 0.7 seconds.
>
> Bill Dube, KillaCycle's owner and designer, likens the sleek, hulking
> bike
> to an oversized household appliance.
>
> "This is like a giant cordless drill with wheels," said Dube, who
> designs
> pollution measurement instruments for the National Oceanic and
> Atmospheric
> Administration.
>
> Except for the batteries he receives from sponsor A123 Systems, Dube
> pays
> the costs of his racing team - about US$13,000 a year - out of his own
> pocket.
>
> "We have a chance of actually taking away some nitromethane records,
> perhaps
> the overall record," said Dube.
>
> In drag racing, two vehicles accelerate from a standstill and race over
> a
> straight quarter-mile track. The National Hot Rod Association oversees
> the
> racing of amateur street-legal cars on hundreds of tracks around the
> country
> as well as the professional drag circuit.
>
> In the most popular professional division, Top Fuel Racing, dragsters
> with
> large rear wheels and narrow bodies reach speeds exceeding 330 m.p.h.
> (530
> km/h) in 4.6 seconds. Drivers are practically flattened against their
> seats
> during their short ride, meeting more g-forces than astronauts during a
> space shuttle launch.
>
> The National Electric Drag Racing Association holds just four races a
> year.
> But electric drag racers are increasingly showing up at drag strips
> across
> the country to show what they can do.
>
> Their vehicles are posting faster and faster times at amateur meets, but
> they still have a ways to go before matching professional world record
> times. The fastest quarter-mile time by an electric vehicle is the
> KillaCycle's 8.16 seconds - that's 2.36 seconds off the nitromethane
> world
> record for drag bikes set by Larry "Spiderman" McBride last year.
>
> And larger electric vehicles have even more catching up to do. White
> Zombie's best time in a quarter-mile is 11.46 seconds - that's quicker
> than
> a 2007 505-horsepower Corvette ZO6, one of the quickest production
> vehicles
> available to the general public - but it's still 6.4 seconds away from
> the
> Top Fuel record.
>
> Not everyone in the gas-powered crowd is convinced electric vehicles are
> the
> next big thing.
>
> "I certainly don't see them challenging for professional records in the
> near
> future," said Graham Light, senior vice president of racing operations
> at
> the NHRA. "We don't have a blind eye to new technology, new innovations
> and
> new methods of doing things" but "at this point I don't see a strong
> movement toward electric cars."
>
> But electric vehicle racers say people like Light are out of the loop.
> They
> say rapid advances in battery technology will give EVs a shot at
> drag-racing
> records.
>
> "This is a disruptive technology and there is a lot of room for
> improvement
> in this area," said Ric Fulop, founder and vice president of business
> development for A123, the maker of KillaCycle's batteries.
>
> In December, the KillaCycle will receive a second-generation battery
> pack
> that will have twice as much juice as its current 374-volt system,
> giving it
> close to 1,000 horsepower. Fulop said he believes the KillaCycle can
> break
> the drag racing motorcycle record within the next year.
>
> Electric drag racers are test-driving the technology that will
> eventually
> spill over into mass production cars, analysts say.
>
> Today's hybrid cars, like Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius, use nickel metal
> hydride batteries, not more expensive lithium-ion batteries.
>
> But cost of lithium-ion is expected to drop. In addition, the latest
> generation of batteries offers a higher rate of conductivity and takes
> less
> time to charge - the KillaCycle's battery pack can be juiced up in five
> minutes. New materials also mean the battery is less prone to
> overheating
> and explosions - a danger of earlier generations.
>
> Experts say lithium-ion batteries that will power a car tens of
> thousands of
> kilometres over their lifetime and deliver more horsepower are on the
> horizon.
> 10:35ET 27-07-07
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!
> http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hey all

I googled the title and found this, not sure if this
is where it originated from or not, here's the link.

http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99287&Itemid=265

words getting out 8^)

Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Between the different NEDRA EVent's it's close to
>being a quarterly raffle thing already 8^P  As a
small
>shop it'd be nice to eventually start building at
>least a few for sale 8^o 

Jim,
You put a lot of time and effort into these motors and
are one of the critical players in making all of the
new EV records!
Here's another idea, you put together a nice 8 or 9"
motor and raffle it out on YOUR paypal account!  These
type of raffles seam to raise considerable money for
charities (raffling a car for example).
I may be a cheapskate and acquire many many of my
parts free like you mentioned earlier, but I would be
willing to risk $20 to win one of your motors.
Heck, with only 200 people playing your raffle you
would have enough money to by a Zilla for YOUR own EV
(and the chances of winning would be pretty good :-).
I think everybody on the list would like to see 'the
motor guy' get his own EV.
So, what do you think? a raffle for Jim Husted to help
him get his own EV on the road!
Perhaps if you hit a goal of x dollars you could
include the cost of shipping and handling using part
of the raffle money.
Rod

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 28 Jul 2007 at 9:48, Tehben Dean wrote:

> I will try to summarize this:

Please don't.  This discussion is not appropriate for the EVDL.  For the 
purpose of this thread, it is enough to know that one-quarter of US 
residents do not have broadband connections.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The Tesla Roadster has many, many battery cells put in parallel, and
then connects them in series. The result is that it's like having a
higher amp-hour rating battery, and therefore more range. The Tesla
Roadster has a 800 pound battery pack!(I'm subtracting 100 pounds from
their figure of 900 to take in account electronics, the battery case
frame ect.)

The Tesla Roadster is very, very light. The ~1000-900 lb battery pack
takes up by the most weight of the vehicle. The result is a high
power, and high energy, to weight ratio.


On 7/28/07, gulabrao ingle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I was browsing through some webpges when i came across a article about
> the couregges EXE,
>
> how on earth is it possible to get 200 miles from an li-ion pack @ 370
> v when the ev calculator suggests a range of only 120 miles
>
> Can someone please explain ?
>
> Same is true for the tesla roadster
>
> how can it give 150mph and 200 miles at the same time ?
>
> Thanks
> Sushrut
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://www.farmers.com/FarmComm/WebSite/html/common/hybrid_discount.html

These guys claim a 10% discount for electric cars and other
alternative fuel cars.

On 7/28/07, Kip C. Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The key issue is to make sure that they know what they are insuring.  If
> they write the policy for a regular 82 Honda, then that is all they would
> owe replacement on if the don't deny a claim entirely.
>
> Stated value policies are without a doubt the way to go.  As Bob pointed
> out, Allstate offers one, and I have had a friend collect on nearly $11k in
> repairs to a Datsun 510 because he had one on it.
>
> - Kip
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bart Grabman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:59 AM
> Subject: Insurance
>
>
> > I'm coming along with my project, and got to thinking today about
> > insurance prices, and how they might differ vs. my Saab.
> >
> > I just had a couple questions: What kind of coverage do you have on your
> > vehicle?  What company do you use?  How much do you pay?
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I'm in.

-- 
Manny

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

On 7/28/07, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Between the different NEDRA EVent's it's close to
> >being a quarterly raffle thing already 8^P  As a
> small
> >shop it'd be nice to eventually start building at
> >least a few for sale 8^o
>
> Jim,
> You put a lot of time and effort into these motors and
> are one of the critical players in making all of the
> new EV records!
> Here's another idea, you put together a nice 8 or 9"
> motor and raffle it out on YOUR paypal account!  These
> type of raffles seam to raise considerable money for
> charities (raffling a car for example).
> I may be a cheapskate and acquire many many of my
> parts free like you mentioned earlier, but I would be
> willing to risk $20 to win one of your motors.
> Heck, with only 200 people playing your raffle you
> would have enough money to by a Zilla for YOUR own EV
> (and the chances of winning would be pretty good :-).
> I think everybody on the list would like to see 'the
> motor guy' get his own EV.
> So, what do you think? a raffle for Jim Husted to help
> him get his own EV on the road!
> Perhaps if you hit a goal of x dollars you could
> include the cost of shipping and handling using part
> of the raffle money.
> Rod
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
HI, Jeff

Are you saying that narrower tires have lower or higher RR?  Or neither?

I'm not sure I follow  your train of thought.



From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:17:54 -0700

Tire rolling resistance relative to width.

Because the narrower tire ends up with more weight per square inch and
an therefore a larger flatspot and higher force to multiply by the
friction coeffient it tends to balance out with the narrower but longer
patch. But a large change either direction from optimal is noticable.
I disagree. with the first statement here. The only thing that really affects the weight per square inch of the tire on the road (contact patch pressure) is the tire pressure. The exception is for a tire with VERY low air pressure, where the sidewalls support more of the weight. 

This is from "how stuff works"
"For your 2-ton (4,000 lb) car, you will find that the area of the contact patch is about equal to the weight of the car divided by the tire pressure. In this case 4,000 pounds divided by 30 pounds per square inch equals 133 square inches. That may seem like a lot, but your car's tires are probably about 7 inches wide. That means that the contact patch for each tire will be about 4.75 inches long."
And as far as rolling resistance, friction with the road is not the major factor. The energy loss is mostly due to hysteresis ( damping, or loss) in the tire itself. 

This is from page 96 of

TIRES AND
PASSENGER
VEHICLE FUEL
ECONOMYTRANSPORTATION RESEARCH BOARDSPECIAL REPORT 286



"The main source of rolling resistance is hysteresis, which is caused by
the viscoelastic response of the rubber compounds in the tire as it rotates
under load. The repeated tire deformation and recovery causes mechan-
ical energy to be converted to heat; hence additional mechanical energy
must be supplied to drive the axle. The design characteristics of a tire that 
affect this energy loss are its construction; geometric dimensions; and
materials types, formulations, and volume. The tread, in particular, has a
major role in hysteresis because it contains large amounts of viscoelastic
rubber material. As tread wears, a tire’s rolling resistance declines, primar- 
ily because of the reduction in the amount of viscoelastic material. "
The report goes on to say that there is no conclusive correlation between tire width and rolling resistance. 

They do have a couple of interesting things to say, though.
They state that RR is reduced as tire temperature rises, so that the RR is higher when the car starts out. That might be one factor in reduced winter range of EV's - the higher tire RR in cold weather.
They also say the RR drops as the tread wears - an average of about 20%, because most of the loss is in the tread. 

Phil




The key to a low rolling resistance tire is not as simple as people
assume. Mainly a more flexible rubber that doesn't just rub off by
adding silica, the ability to be kept rounder with  more air pressure
without being made stiffer by using a higher thread count of more
flexible threads in the casing and a diagonal ply arrangement on the
side-walls to allow them to flex without absorbing too much energy. As
the tire goes around the side walls are forced to flex and unflex and
the road pushing against the rolling tire forming a teardrop distortion
that adds drag.  The addition of silica also gives the rubber an
interesting property kinda like old car wax in reverse. As it is sheared
off,it's coefficient of friction increases.

The Caseing is really important, it is a waste of time to put fancy
rubber on a poor foundation. Once you have a good foundation they even
have tried variable chemistries in a tire. a stripe down the center
having a higher silica content than the edges. As brakes are applied or
the vehicle corners hard, the grip goes up.

Ground level Ozone hurts rubber. What use to last 10 years lasts 5 now!
DOT* Race tires where it really matters are wrapped, are almost not
saleable after a year. They and usully mounted and shaved on a lathe
before use(this takes of about 1/2 the tread, getting rid of the rubber
on the surface that is contaminated with mold release and makes the
tread stiffer so it lasts longer. go figure)

DOT* Department of transportation. Tires approved for use on roads but
have really soft rubber on them and are used for SCCA racing.



_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.lionev.com/Home_Page.html

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--- Begin Message --- I checked Hartford as well as GEICO, went with GEICO for much lower cost. 

Jerry

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I've posted a video of Keith Vansickle's Lightning Bug, it's an awesome ride.

Notice the White Zombiesque burn-outs...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884982933746657081

The Lightning Bug is a hopped up Bug Ev from Blue Sky Design in
Oregon. The original is 48v with a smaller motor. This Lightning Bug
is 72v right now and when he gets a bigger controller will go to 96 or
even 120v. He wants the thing to be so fast no one but a speed freak
will drive it full open, just like any other hi performance
motorcycle. He is working on another frame and slightly different body
that will take the bigger motor and higher speeds.

-- 
Manny

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

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--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another is, it'd have to end before the event so if
> the winner is present he doesn't have to wait and
> occur freight etc. Freight would have to come from
> winner or maybe NEDRA if they just raked in the bucks
> by the wheelbarrows 8^) 

  Hope NEDRA are laden down with sponsorships, but an EV-friendly (if
there is - yet - such a thing) courier outfit might cover freight?  

  Fedex and Purolator have both been taking (hybrid) EV baby steps for
some years now.

  Just a thought... If a kind NEDRA member would spin the right letter
to the right office.

tks

Lock
Toronto


      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to 
Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

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--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> Jim,
> You put a lot of time and effort into these motors
> and
> are one of the critical players in making all of the
> new EV records!
> Here's another idea, you put together a nice 8 or 9"
> motor and raffle it out on YOUR paypal account! 

> I may be a cheapskate and acquire many many of my
> parts free like you mentioned earlier, but I would
> be
> willing to risk $20 to win one of your motors.
> Heck, with only 200 people playing your raffle you
> would have enough money to by a Zilla for YOUR own
> EV
> (and the chances of winning would be pretty good
> :-).
> I think everybody on the list would like to see 'the
> motor guy' get his own EV.
> So, what do you think? a raffle for Jim Husted to
> help
> him get his own EV on the road!
> Perhaps if you hit a goal of x dollars you could
> include the cost of shipping and handling using part
> of the raffle money.
> Rod

Hey Rod, all

Honestly this was a fun idea to entertain but would
need control stops like an independent body to do the
drawing and would probably need rules written and
probably subject to a host of local or state laws. 
Holding it for a non-profit group is one thing but for
a for profit?  Just seems one bug could spoil the
whole bag of jelly beans, so to speak, lol.  It'd
probably make me feel like I raped 200 people out of
their 20 bucks as well, LMAO! Anyway it made me all
gooshy inside reading your post 8^)  

As for me and my EVhood I'm moving up the evolutionary
ladder 8^)  I may be the motor guy but I still have a
lot to learn.  Honestly before Wayland I was niether a
race fan nor EVen very automotive 8^o


In fact my first EV (I found a small 250 watt motor)
was a little scooter and it worked great testing it at
the shop 8^) but fried after 15 minutes of my daughter
riding it 8^(  I see this plume of smoke mushrooming
out of the poor little motor 8^o  So even being the
motor guy I geared it wrong and burnt my first motor
up 8^o LMAO  It sucked so I try to help people not do
what I did 8^)

Needless to say I'm starting small and working up as I
learn.  I also fall into that void of occupation /
hobby overload, kind of like why you never see a
carpender finish their own remodeled bathroom.  Not
quite as fun hammering on stuff after you've done it
all day ;^)  Added to this is that for any dollar
spent buying me EV parts it could be used to buy the
shop inventory and or tooling to better serve and
research motors etc, so it's kind of a catch 22 for me
honestly.

It's kind of funny but in reality I am still caught
off guard by much of what's happened in my life in the
last two years.  In fact they have given me some real
lifetime achievement moments.  The kind of stories you
tell your grandkids 8^) and they think you're full of
cude and you're pulling their leg or losing your mind
8^)

I actually started my shop so I'd have a little more
liesure and a slower life, LMAO.  Life is about
choices and although I have other passions I feel this
is my most productive and useful area to focus my
energies on right now 8^) 

Maybe some day I'll be famous enough to hold my own
Hi-Torque invitational 8^P and I'll raffle me off a
big old fat daddy motor to "cover" the expences (AKA
Jims new Zilla or Rudman charger) 8^o 

Anyway your emails just tickled me to death knowing
people care 8^).  Just had to chime in and post some
thoughts from my end.

Had fun
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric 




       
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--- Begin Message --- Is anyone familar with this buisness or anything about their battery technology? I looked at their site, but didn't find much information. 
Bill

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

http://www.lionev.com/Home_Page.html

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