“math had become too big; nobody could understand more than 1/4 of it”.
"But with four neighbors I can compute most of it" ;-) On Sat, Feb 10, 2024, 5:25 AM David Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> wrote: > There’s a famous old rant by von Neumann, known at least by those who were > around to hear it, or so I was told by Martin Shubik. > > von Neumann was grumping that “math had become too big; nobody could > understand more than 1/4 of it”. As always with von Neumann, the point of > saying something included an element of self-aggrandizement: von Neumann > was inviting the listener to notice that _he_ was the one who could > understand a quarter of all existing math at the time (whether or not such > an absurdity could be called “true” in any sense). > > I have wondered if this problem marks a qualitative threshold from which > to define a “complex systems” science. The premise would be that all > innovations ultimately occur in individual human heads, triggered somehow. > (And much of the skill of science is to structure your environment of > reading and experience and people to “trigger” you in productive ways, > since insight isn’t something that can be willed into existence). But > those ideas need to be answerable to the fullest scope of whatever is > currently understood that is pertinent. > > The old answer used to be to cram more and more of current knowledge into > single heads as the fuel for their insights, and then to limit to more and > more rarified heads that could hold the most and still come up with > something. > > But at some point, that model no longer works because there is a limit > (some kind of extreme-value distribution, I guess) to what human heads can > hold, at all. > > The project then shifts over into an effort of community design with > explicit concerns that are not reducible to head-packing. How do good > insights come into existence, still limited by heads, but properly > responsible to much more knowledge than the heads do, or even could, > contain? > > > I can, of course, shoot down my own way of saying this, immediately. In a > sense, engineers have been doing this for some very very long time. No > “person” knows what is in a 777 aircraft (or for the Europeans, an A380). > Those cases still feel different to me somehow, and like a more standard > expansion of the concept of the assembly line and modularization of tasks > through reliable interfaces (the various ideas behind object design etc.) > I imagine that the interesting problem of idea-finding for complex > phenomena are those that arise when you have modularized as much as you > can, and you have run out of interesting things to add within the modules, > because the things you can’t see transcend them. > > But of course I haven’t “made” anything of this string of words, like a > self-help consultancy or the presidency of any institution. > > Eric > > > On Feb 9, 2024, at 7:45 PM, Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org> wrote: > > Yeah, it seems like the premise of the cartoon, or maybe Jochen's > interpretation, was that people have limited scopes of application, and the > average scope of application doesn't include interdisciplinary research. > But there are people who have larger scope and have a lot of fun doing > interdisciplinary projects. And if an interdisciplinary group can adapt to > its participant areas of strength, lots of interesting things can happen. > > -- rec -- > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 3:19 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I didn't read the article but Carnegie Mellon, where I worked for almost >> 20 years, prides itself on the amount of interdisciplinary research >> accomplished there.. Herb Simon had appointments in psychology, computer >> science, business and public policy, I believe. I was a coauthor of papers >> in robotics, public policy, computer science and philosophy. >> >> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 1:54 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >> >>> Tom Gauld describes most of the problems of interdisciplinary research >>> in a single image >>> >>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2389834-tom-gauld-on-areas-of-expertise/ >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,0Puf8ZPR6o_m4EcLPFeyqtp89xOLC1YRGDdTEKUSLiOv7k04TG_KSemL6Pk9IIt2FNU9-Pod9znwA38NBaQc8rcYnMa_D_drR6Vw2oKNyf1sOuQlgeoE484KOg,,&typo=1> >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,76TOEqakoOhXX_lalKacEGa9GGBPx1wfG_o-7boAGsNNBFSM1xrllbT6i-Q0td8CCBIFI2MC0lZ82j04lYnAGX2UT_CZSeOwpdJv7mtk&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,bEo6w0louxKpJDogqgZDS_p4siVPkg90J0dG_-rJGTiZK4gbwBQkAB2XBXsEbuHQXFgoJnyFY_YKeYkBQo8V-KQacpLi12Gp58S_IyIFlo-m2DhkTXs75aA,&typo=1> >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,T0mpRAuULI40bTJdAC5zhfPw1IgBMM5Cc_k7LdYWqOgdYGTM-MIWLHM0WDIY4Bs-0JEBrute1ksETud7-ysnH5CMDfv4x0zPpoaBYzReZZQ,&typo=1> >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> >> -- >> Frank Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> 505 670-9918 >> >> Research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,nm8nLWUCiDWvTQZo7VaezJnHw1SkUBsx7oGP8EZT2sNHNPbKU8ACD0YaoPJcdui58vjkPwas_8CzEyB-JD9OoIwUY8QiQfEm3FzPewG2xIWK2-Z2-A,,&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,nYjZ7o7rSht7G4LXOEBaP-23VQXwlsv7Ox4uR9yFHLnTLsAnwp-2Owj8n5LxM-QFpgrXSHOp8w5bgJmA6gp7u5I2AifrYpWtuPJARkbjxF3j9YAVwoub&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,OLaZppi63SCuXOH4B5mvvvf-QaCUMv0yEZNfrMTOlbLqVlMkHVi2KMUvMK86q_mx-KDO1jDfyNZm1UZZezOCy2QFc66qrWVW0-FfTlglCJBcDOtY5-IHSbZGsw,,&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,QFppeetJ33HbN1bMEA8o8Ub_N8q0I-CxRH5HW2u8BcXBoIlx16ZflQo6jZ7583VeFlNgKChAjLFf37xyGqkOAyWpbsEyCV8btjQHHkQcQDUzJGs,&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,mYvAAJgz4vxmxboQXnhf2S5ghxO6uGqgGAg2hrgqmRBA-zHjf7Wp9_m9B0d5tENgepFodD1oCUumChgXIdjvCasSuwUUV8ew4-f0o-r5dWE,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,VOgRMqbzbHXQhhQnj0oxqPUn-_oNDZLR320_64XZ8gFXZ--hbCK0GOhBGqaxI6LxXJtjKn7mUZQAyBYq871FtaFzU0J__sHQgieOY22yK2ZmJM37wlhE0llr&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,FxWxSLgXCzJwCH4b3PpTYv24JtecA0KbRInBLV33k77u7IaMNE2VULhKCuSn8AJDsdtUPMVukmCuu-jwLXWWbdZQcTRRF6K4-B_b_9Yj9Wo,&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,MIdovpbu4rkq0MYUBES78lX74Jh_jT9ZPIEOw1MjSbWmdrDqinqjphPBKtPiwMJ77SolzF3l0BA1_LVqQ74BKqkCOMMO5YNGptbnHIYjcgW_hcMydLGX4h_MEr4S&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
