It is an interesting question. A colleague of mine, to whom I refer either affectionately (sometimes) or in exasperation (most times) as The Mystic believes that this utilization was what the Phenomenologists were after, though he considers only Husserl and Fink the real deal, and the others as closeted hair-splitting Analyticals who didn’t understand the purpose (which, like the purpose of everything of any worth, is Mysticism). He also believes that the European phenomenologists were sort of undergrads at this, whereas the Vedic Hindus were maybe impressive post-docs, along with maybe Daoists and some Confucians, Buddhists in general were the professoriate, and among them the Tibetans the true grandmasters. (He will give somewhat more credit to the Medieval Christian mystics in Europe — the group studied by people like Barry McGinn — than to their post-enlightenment descendants in philosophy.) I tend to get lost in the hierarchy of holies, since it seems to vary depending on what I might have said that he needs to tell me was wrong. But I feel like I remember patterns in things said to me over many conversations over the span of years, going into decades.
And of course, I say “he believes”, as if I didn’t recognize the complete absurdity of that, as I have no place or way to say anything about what he believes, never having said (or asked, or seemingly, even thought) anything that he doesn’t consider an error so categorical as to be hard for him to express. But, without about the honor due to Sartre’s self-taught man, I can continue to listen and try to remember the surface forms of what gets told to me. The idea that there should be room for growth here doesn’t seem crazy to me. Eric > On Feb 10, 2024, at 11:55 AM, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > Eric said: > > "there is a limit (some kind of extreme-value distribution, I guess) to what > human heads can hold, at all." > > I must disagree. > > It may very well be true that the human mind-brain is limited in the amount > of 'formal-abstract' knowledge (mathematical, scientific, computational—the > stuff you learn in school) it can hold; that kind of knowledge represents a > small portion of what every human 'knows'. (Maybe 10%) > > The exemplar of 'non-formal-abstract' knowledge possessed by everyone is > culture: "a complex whole consisting, in part, of language, norms, values, > worldviews, technologies, behaviors, and appearances." This kind of knowledge > can grow without limit (excepting maybe death) as long as one remains open to > its acquisition with varied experiences, travel, engagement with the "other," > and reading (for pleasure as well as purpose). > > An interesting question: can (and if yes, how) might this knowledge be > utilized in service of innovation, insight, and understanding? I believe the > the answers are "yes" and "via evocative contextualization." An example of > the latter is the "Wheel of Life" Thankgka painting I have hanging above my > desk. (attached) > > davew > > > > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2024, at 4:25 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: >> There’s a famous old rant by von Neumann, known at least by those who were >> around to hear it, or so I was told by Martin Shubik. >> >> von Neumann was grumping that “math had become too big; nobody could >> understand more than 1/4 of it”. As always with von Neumann, the point of >> saying something included an element of self-aggrandizement: von Neumann was >> inviting the listener to notice that _he_ was the one who could understand a >> quarter of all existing math at the time (whether or not such an absurdity >> could be called “true” in any sense). >> >> I have wondered if this problem marks a qualitative threshold from which to >> define a “complex systems” science. The premise would be that all >> innovations ultimately occur in individual human heads, triggered somehow. >> (And much of the skill of science is to structure your environment of >> reading and experience and people to “trigger” you in productive ways, since >> insight isn’t something that can be willed into existence). But those ideas >> need to be answerable to the fullest scope of whatever is currently >> understood that is pertinent. >> >> The old answer used to be to cram more and more of current knowledge into >> single heads as the fuel for their insights, and then to limit to more and >> more rarified heads that could hold the most and still come up with >> something. >> >> But at some point, that model no longer works because there is a limit (some >> kind of extreme-value distribution, I guess) to what human heads can hold, >> at all. >> >> The project then shifts over into an effort of community design with >> explicit concerns that are not reducible to head-packing. How do good >> insights come into existence, still limited by heads, but properly >> responsible to much more knowledge than the heads do, or even could, >> contain? >> >> >> I can, of course, shoot down my own way of saying this, immediately. In a >> sense, engineers have been doing this for some very very long time. No >> “person” knows what is in a 777 aircraft (or for the Europeans, an A380). >> Those cases still feel different to me somehow, and like a more standard >> expansion of the concept of the assembly line and modularization of tasks >> through reliable interfaces (the various ideas behind object design etc.) I >> imagine that the interesting problem of idea-finding for complex phenomena >> are those that arise when you have modularized as much as you can, and you >> have run out of interesting things to add within the modules, because the >> things you can’t see transcend them. >> >> But of course I haven’t “made” anything of this string of words, like a >> self-help consultancy or the presidency of any institution. >> >> Eric >> >> >>> On Feb 9, 2024, at 7:45 PM, Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org> wrote: >>> >>> Yeah, it seems like the premise of the cartoon, or maybe Jochen's >>> interpretation, was that people have limited scopes of application, and the >>> average scope of application doesn't include interdisciplinary research. >>> But there are people who have larger scope and have a lot of fun doing >>> interdisciplinary projects. And if an interdisciplinary group can adapt to >>> its participant areas of strength, lots of interesting things can happen. >>> >>> -- rec -- >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 3:19 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> I didn't read the article but Carnegie Mellon, where I worked for almost 20 >>> years, prides itself on the amount of interdisciplinary research >>> accomplished there.. Herb Simon had appointments in psychology, computer >>> science, business and public policy, I believe. I was a coauthor of papers >>> in robotics, public policy, computer science and philosophy. >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 1:54 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net >>> <mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: >>> Tom Gauld describes most of the problems of interdisciplinary research in a >>> single image >>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2389834-tom-gauld-on-areas-of-expertise/ >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,0Puf8ZPR6o_m4EcLPFeyqtp89xOLC1YRGDdTEKUSLiOv7k04TG_KSemL6Pk9IIt2FNU9-Pod9znwA38NBaQc8rcYnMa_D_drR6Vw2oKNyf1sOuQlgeoE484KOg,,&typo=1> >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,76TOEqakoOhXX_lalKacEGa9GGBPx1wfG_o-7boAGsNNBFSM1xrllbT6i-Q0td8CCBIFI2MC0lZ82j04lYnAGX2UT_CZSeOwpdJv7mtk&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,bEo6w0louxKpJDogqgZDS_p4siVPkg90J0dG_-rJGTiZK4gbwBQkAB2XBXsEbuHQXFgoJnyFY_YKeYkBQo8V-KQacpLi12Gp58S_IyIFlo-m2DhkTXs75aA,&typo=1> >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,T0mpRAuULI40bTJdAC5zhfPw1IgBMM5Cc_k7LdYWqOgdYGTM-MIWLHM0WDIY4Bs-0JEBrute1ksETud7-ysnH5CMDfv4x0zPpoaBYzReZZQ,&typo=1> >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Frank Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> 505 670-9918 >>> >>> Research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>> -. --- - 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