Thanks Maris for the long reply, see below On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 1:42 PM Maris Nartiss <maris....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all, > although I expected some discussion, I didn't expect a kind of Spanish > Inquisition. To make things easier for me (I still have to type single > handed), I'll try to address all issues in a single email. Well, we have been discussing this topic for a loong time, so you should have expected more passionate responses... > > At first we all must agree that coordinate systems, geospatial data > and thus also GIS is hard. We will never have a perfect (the final) > solution or a solution we all can agree on, but it shouldn't stop us > from trying out new things. > Sure. > > Second – from the GSOC web site: „Google Summer of Code is a global, > online program focused on bringing new contributors into open source > software development.“ It is not „get some code to merge into next > release“ and thus developing an experimental feature still is a good > way how to get familiar with the code base, contributing to os, issues > and features of GRASS. > If I invest my time into GSoC, I want the result to be merged. So personally, I am not going to mentor an "experimental" project. We have done this before, students didn't stay with the project and we had unusable results at the end. > > Third – we should improve GRASS with a goal of making easy to do „the > right thing“ and to make hard to do „wrong“. We have (and should > keep!) plenty of „shortcuts“ for experienced users who understand what > they do. > Generally I agree. > > And now let's dive into specifics (in chronological order). > Vero, I meant a first-run wizard, but choose a bad name. Sorry, my > fault. Although I had no fundamental objections against the old > startup screen, there is no need to resurrect it. He's dead, Jim. > > Anna, there were many ideas floating around in Prague caused by the > „location“->„project“ proposal. And you are right, we couldn't agree > on a single solution (see the first point of this email). At the same > time there were concerns from me and others (IIRC Martin, Luís, > Helmut?) that it is still too easy to continue with a sub-optimal or > outright wrong CRS (location/project structure). Later on (after a few > too many beers) I tried to convince everyone (sorry Linda!) that we > should focus on that “easy to do right“ mantra. At the end we all > agreed (or everyone agreed just to silence me ;-) that we should > continue exploring alternatives and thus was the GSOC proposal. > I share the concerns, I personally just don't think any welcome screen or wizard is going to address them. They would likely be dismissed and then we are in the same situation. We have had welcome screen and wizard for a long time and that was a stumbling block for users. I don't think simply redesigning it helps. We should think of some other ways, I don't have a solution now, if we have, we can have a GSoC project. > Brendan, there's more than one way to skin a cat. > > Anna, the current info bar is just bad for at least two reasons (sorry > Linda, I'm just opinionated). Although you state that most users just > dismiss it, I'll call it a lie – it is not possible to dismiss it at > all! Yeah, I'm just kidding, there is a bug in the code. I rm'ed my > .grass8 to see first start-up experience. See attachment with a cutout > from a full screen window I was presented with – one can not read > whole message or see any buttons as the widget is too small to fit all > of its content. And that's even before the text is translated to > Latvian, German or Finnish that will make the text even longer > (Äteritsiputeritsipuolilautatsijänkä is an actual name of region in > Lapland and makes a good word to test UI). > The info bar has fallen into the old startup window trap – try to > explain GRASS specifics (an important thing!) instead of providing > easy actionable options that all lead to „doing it right“. It is a > TL;DR, and why I should „create new project“ if I already have one > open? Keep in mind attention span of a goldfish (a.k.a. length of a > Tiktok video) we are dealing with. (Has anyone read this far? Let me > know in the comments and don't forget to like and subscribe.) > My idea did not interfere with implementing an offer to create a new > project in import tools if a reprojection from projected to ll project > is detected (I <3 how this sentence rolls-off my tongue) or any other > enhancements that also can (and should) be implemented. > Could you please create an issue for this? > > Vaclav, thanks. I was thinking of something like A1 proposal, but even > simpler (three + 1 buttons) and the same time with a lot of black > magick (e.g. three clicks or less to have everything ready for any of > our intro tutorials, including opening a web browser with the chosen > tutorial and adding some layers to the map view; two clicks (+ file > browsing) to have users raster or vector data displayed). > I think Vashek's point was to gently remind you there has been a lot of discussion going on in the past, not to resurrect one of those ideas:) > > Linda, in your paper you wrote: „Since both options were favorably > rated (85% responded positively to the first-run wizard and 74% to > info bars), we decided to implement an info bar as a technically > simpler and more flexible solution.“ The idea of this GSOC proposal > was to implement in some form the second option that would allow to > perform A/B testing with real users. As you (et al.) have done a huge > work with the codebase, now it would be much easier to implement than > some years a go. > I also understand that users want to start working with the software > right away. But here is a catch – most likely nobody will start GRASS > to work with data provided by the demo project. Either they will start > GRASS to do some exercises in a training course / to follow a tutorial > (= download one of sample datasets, add some layer to the map view), > or to work with data they have to solve the analysis problem they are > facing (= create a new project from supplied data, import file, add it > to the map view, display warning about computational region in your > info bar, if imported data were vectors and not raster). If user > cancels the wizard, just fine. Let him enjoy the demo project and > display first time screen also on the next startup iff there is no > project with data in the GISDBASE. This would not interfere with a > big, fat warning if someone tries to import external data into sample > projects (NC, Spearfish, ...) or any other enhancements that could be > done. > I agree with a lot of points you are making but I guess I still don't understand exactly what your suggestion is and how it would make things better and for whom... > Huh, I think I answered most of points from previous emails (except > going into details of potential architecture (thus Anna for wxPython > expertise) or user friendliness (thus Vero)). Thank you to everyone > who read this far and sorry for all unintentional fuss I caused. > Probably Linda you are right – it is too ambitious for an experimental > project that might get tossed away at the end. I see that Anna has > already removed the idea from the wiki, most likely for good. Do not > restore it, let it be so. We can return to this idea at any point > later if we feel need for it. I have plenty to do to fix pointer > juggling bugs in the new module I have almost finished (anisotropic > smoothing). > Māris. > > piektd., 2024. g. 16. febr., plkst. 10:41 — lietotājs Linda Kladivová > (<l.kladiv...@seznam.cz>) rakstīja: > > > > Hello Māris, > > > > just to add some other info, we did several surveys among GRASS users > about first-time user experience with Anna, Martin and Vashek and we also > tested old and new startup mechanisms in a real environment within the > usability testing - you can have a look at our article: > https://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/12/9/376. > > > > As Anna has already written, the results of usability testing were > indeed mixed but I would like to emphasize one thing - most of the > usability participants (first-time users) said to me that they simply > expect they will be directly redirected to the main software window where > they can start working without knowing anything about the software. The > current "info bar" solution goes in that direction and although I have to > admit that it has flaws there are ways how to make it better and Anna has > already written some points. > > > > I think it would be nice to focus on how to make the current solution > better (it is definitely doable and even desirable) and not go back to some > alternatives to the old solution. > > Above that, it would be extremely time-consuming to implement any dialog > wizards and at the same time the impact of that "dialog" solution is very > uncertain - one important thing we also learned from surveys and > discussions inside/outside the community is that the one good generally > acceptable solution simply does not exist here - it will always be a > compromise. > > > > Just my two cents. :-) > > Linda > > > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > > Od: Maris Nartiss via grass-dev <grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org> > > Komu: Anna Petrášová <kratocha...@gmail.com>, Veronica Andreo < > veroand...@gmail.com> > > Kopie: GRASS-dev <grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org> > > Datum: 15. 2. 2024 13:04:24 > > Předmět: Re: [GRASS-dev] GSoC Ideas > > > > Hello Anna, Vero. > > I added the welcome screen idea we discussed during our Prague > > meeting. I think it would be a good GSOC project as it is quite easy > > and at the same time will allow to understand if it is the way to go. > > Anna, would you be able to be a co-mentor as it is a GUI project? Or > > who else could be? > > Vero, your user-centric view also would be valuable. > > Please edit the wiki accordingly. > > > > Thanks, > > Māris. > > > > sestd., 2024. g. 3. febr., plkst. 06:34 — lietotājs Anna Petrášová via > > grass-dev (<grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org>) rakstīja: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I created a GSoC Ideas 2024 page on grasswiki (as opposed to trac > wiki, which I think we should be moving away from): > > > https://grasswiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GRASS_GSoC_Ideas_2024 > > > > > > It's not updated yet, I plan to add more topics. If you want to mentor > a topic, we can discuss it here. > > > > > > Anna > > > _______________________________________________ > > > grass-dev mailing list > > > grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org > > > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev > > _______________________________________________ > > grass-dev mailing list > > grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org > > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev >
_______________________________________________ grass-dev mailing list grass-dev@lists.osgeo.org https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
