Usally the only one to reply to these are Toni Sergi and I don't even know if he works at valve. Somewhere I heard he just works for valve... Not sure where I heard it (or if it's true).
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Nick <xnicho...@gmail.com> wrote: > I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<saul.renni...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Seconded! > > > > Thanks, > > - Saul. > > > > > > 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman <lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> > > > >> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. > >> > >> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of > including > >> all my hard-earned research in this one? > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris > >> <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: > >> > >> > My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work > >> fully > >> > with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the > >> > lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had > >> trouble > >> > on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that > >> Faceposer > >> > requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. > >> > > >> > I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely > >> lemons, > >> > not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D > >> > > >> > Chris > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > >> > [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry > >> > Pidcock > >> > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM > >> > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > >> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > >> > > >> > Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a > wrapper > >> > that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very > >> visual > >> > language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then > >> > translated into complex hlsl). > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------- > >> > From: "Harry Jeffery" <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> > >> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM > >> > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < > >> hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > >> > > > >> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > >> > > >> > > I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the > whitespace. > >> =[ > >> > > > >> > > 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <voo...@voogru.com>: > >> > >> I like this one better. > >> > >> > >> > >> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> > >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > >> > >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly > >> > >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM > >> > >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > >> > >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > >> > >> > >> > >> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on > my > >> > >> screen!... > >> > >> > >> > >> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully > >> > >>> implemented > >> > >>> a > >> > >>> new feature. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>> From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> > >> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM > >> > >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" > >> > >>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. > >> > >>> Personally > >> > >>> > I > >> > >>> > see 4 different ones here. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > 1) Engine features > >> > >>> > 2) Tools Capabilities > >> > >>> > 3) Tools Availability > >> > >>> > 4) Tools Presentation > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new > >> > >>> > features > >> > >>> or > >> > >>> > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think > it's > >> > >>> > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their > games > >> > need > >> > >>> > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you > are > >> > >>> > modding > >> > >>> > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made > Valve > >> a > >> > >> lot > >> > >>> > of > >> > >>> > money and brought huge success but they were also developed > around > >> > the > >> > >>> > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR > >> > these > >> > >>> > mods > >> > >>> > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent > an > >> > >> engine > >> > >>> > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add > >> the > >> > >>> > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to > >> > >>> > really > >> > >>> > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a > >> drastic > >> > >>> > change > >> > >>> > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get > >> > >>> > underway > >> > >>> > or > >> > >>> > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things > >> without > >> > >>> > a > >> > >>> > lot > >> > >>> > of work, if not at all. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting > at, I > >> > >> don't > >> > >>> > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically > >> > >>> > allowing > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and > just > >> use > >> > >>> > a > >> > >>> > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and > >> > converter > >> > >>> > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a > >> specific > >> > >> and > >> > >>> > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. > >> > >>> > Especially > >> > >>> if > >> > >>> > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format > that > >> > the > >> > >>> > tool > >> > >>> > can then use. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be > >> open > >> > >>> > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look > at > >> > >>> > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally > >> > >>> > personal > >> > >>> > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own > >> > editor > >> > >>> and > >> > >>> > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better > >> designed > >> > >>> > tool. > >> > >>> > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be > of > >> > any > >> > >>> > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating > around > >> > and > >> > >> do > >> > >>> > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may > have > >> > >>> > bugs > >> > >>> > but > >> > >>> > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and > >> lead > >> > >>> > by > >> > >>> > example? > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool > >> with > >> > a > >> > >> UI > >> > >>> > or > >> > >>> > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is > >> > >> balancing > >> > >>> > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However > I > >> > >>> > feel > >> > >>> it > >> > >>> > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it > the > >> > >>> > way > >> > >>> it > >> > >>> > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what > >> they > >> > >>> > need. > >> > >>> > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who > >> > would > >> > >>> > need > >> > >>> > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this > back > >> to > >> > >>> > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting > around > >> in > >> > a > >> > >>> hex > >> > >>> > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing > the > >> > >>> > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors > >> hiding > >> > >> away > >> > >>> > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between > the > >> > >>> > user > >> > >>> > and > >> > >>> > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might > >> be, > >> > >>> > at > >> > >>> > this > >> > >>> > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end > for > >> > >>> those. > >> > >>> > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling > it > >> > up, > >> > >>> > HLMV > >> > >>> > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about > >> simplifying > >> > >> and > >> > >>> > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive > development > >> > >> could > >> > >>> > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious > >> > about > >> > >>> > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was > >> that > >> > >>> > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can > accept > >> > >> would > >> > >>> > be > >> > >>> > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately > obvious > >> > >>> reason. > >> > >>> > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be > something > >> > that > >> > >> is > >> > >>> > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're > serious > >> > >> enough > >> > >>> > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the > way > >> > >>> > users > >> > >>> > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing > to > >> > >>> > tackle. > >> > >>> > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is > a > >> bit > >> > >>> > of > >> > >>> a > >> > >>> > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are > >> examples > >> > >>> > of > >> > >>> > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and > Garrys > >> > >>> > mod > >> > >>> is > >> > >>> > a > >> > >>> > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and > adding > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just > >> > >>> > falling > >> > >>> > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats > best > >> > for > >> > >>> > Valve > >> > >>> > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears < > benmea...@gmail.com> > >> > >>> > wrote: > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I > agree > >> > >>> >> with > >> > >>> >> what > >> > >>> >> Jed said 100%. > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> great, thanks! > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> > wrote: > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding > >> > support > >> > >>> >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that > >> StudioMDL > >> > >>> >> > supports. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format > from > >> > and > >> > >>> >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to > >> > >>> >> > support > >> > >>> >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not > >> > >>> >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled > >> against > >> > >> the > >> > >>> >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to > >> have > >> > >> one > >> > >>> >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. > >> > Therefore > >> > >>> >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made > by > >> > the > >> > >> 3D > >> > >>> >> > app users themselves. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as > >> DAE, > >> > >>> >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL > >> > >>> >> > compiler > >> > >>> >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in > >> > *addition* > >> > >> to > >> > >>> >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > So why should they do it? > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce > content > >> > >>> >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example > >> DAE/FBX > >> > >>> >> > is > >> > >>> >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. > >> > >>> >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of > >> > their > >> > >>> >> > choice to create content. > >> > >>> >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just > support > >> > the > >> > >>> >> > format in the compiler. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps > that > >> > >>> >> > write > >> > >>> >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, > Prall, > >> et > >> > >> al. > >> > >>> >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me > once > >> > >>> >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max > 2009 > >> > >> because > >> > >>> >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had > >> > >>> >> > invested > >> > >>> >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to > have > >> to > >> > >>> >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a > >> > >>> >> > Source > >> > >>> >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of > >> > plug-ins > >> > >>> >> > for Max. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels > >> like > >> > >>> >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider > >> adoption > >> > >>> >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders > >> > >>> >> > perspective, > >> > >>> >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next > >> > >>> >> > CSS/TF2/Portal > >> > >>> >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have > a > >> > >>> >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools > - > >> > not > >> > >>> >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the > start > >> > (and > >> > >>> >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) > >> > >>> >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old > buggy > >> > >>> >> > mxtk > >> > >>> >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. > >> > >>> >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually > >> > phase > >> > >>> >> > out SMD, etc. > >> > >>> >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source > >> code > >> > >> for > >> > >>> >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from > >> even > >> > >>> >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. > >> > >>> >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a > 3D > >> > >> window > >> > >>> >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it > accessible > >> so > >> > >>> >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other > >> apps. > >> > >>> >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to > end > >> > >>> >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm > >> > welcoming > >> > >>> >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > - Jed > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: > >> > >>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates > >> > >>> >> > >> reference > >> > >>> >> > meshes, > >> > >>> >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go > straight > >> > from > >> > >> 3d > >> > >>> >> > model / > >> > >>> >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? > >> > >>> >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where > >> you > >> > >>> >> > >> can > >> > >>> >> > combine > >> > >>> >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are > >> > >>> >> > > formidable, > >> > >>> >> > > it > >> > >>> >> > still > >> > >>> >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and > syntax. > >> > >>> >> > > Don't > >> > >>> >> tell > >> > >>> >> > me > >> > >>> >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly > >> > having > >> > >>> >> > problems > >> > >>> >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that > allows > >> > for > >> > >>> >> > combining > >> > >>> >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still > >> pisses > >> > >>> >> > > me > >> > >>> >> > > off > >> > >>> >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of > reach > >> > of > >> > >>> >> > > most > >> > >>> >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, > but > >> I'm > >> > >>> >> > surprised > >> > >>> >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. > >> > >>> >> > > > >> > >>> >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have > too > >> > many > >> > >>> >> > problems > >> > >>> >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it > >> does > >> > >>> >> > > it > >> > >>> >> > > in > >> > >>> >> a > >> > >>> >> > bit > >> > >>> >> > > of a backwards way. > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> > >> archives, > >> > >>> >> > please visit: > >> > >>> >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> > >>> >> archives, > >> > >>> >> please visit: > >> > >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> > archives, > >> > >>> > please visit: > >> > >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> > >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> > >>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release > Date: > >> > >>> 07/24/09 > >> > >>> > 18:24:00 > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> archives, > >> > >>> please visit: > >> > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >> > >> please visit: > >> > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >> > >> please visit: > >> > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >> > > please visit: > >> > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > >> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: > >> > 07/25/09 > >> > > 18:01:00 > >> > > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> > please visit: > >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> > please visit: > >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
