Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!...
2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> > Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented > a > new feature. > > http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt > > I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. > Personally > > I > > see 4 different ones here. > > > > 1) Engine features > > 2) Tools Capabilities > > 3) Tools Availability > > 4) Tools Presentation > > > > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features > or > > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's > > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need > > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are > > modding > > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot > > of > > money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the > > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these > > mods > > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine > > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the > > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really > > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic > > change > > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway > > or > > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a > > lot > > of work, if not at all. > > > > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't > > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing > > the > > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a > > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter > > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and > > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially > if > > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the > > tool > > can then use. > > > > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open > > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at > > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal > > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor > and > > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed > > tool. > > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any > > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around and do > > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have bugs > > but > > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead by > > example? > > > > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with a UI > > or > > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is balancing > > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I feel > it > > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the way > it > > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they > > need. > > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who would > > need > > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to > > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in a > hex > > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the > > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding away > > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the user > > and > > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, at > > this > > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for > those. > > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it up, > > HLMV > > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying and > > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development could > > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious about > > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. > > > > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that > > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept would > > be > > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious > reason. > > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something that is > > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious enough > > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way users > > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to > > tackle. > > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a bit of > a > > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are examples of > > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys mod > is > > a > > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding the > > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just falling > > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best for > > Valve > > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. > > > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears <benmea...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree with > >> what > >> Jed said 100%. > >> > >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? > >> > >> great, thanks! > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: > >> > >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding support > >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that StudioMDL > >> > supports. > >> > > >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from and > >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to support > >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. > >> > > >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not > >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled against the > >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to have one > >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. Therefore > >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by the 3D > >> > app users themselves. > >> > > >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as DAE, > >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL compiler > >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in *addition* to > >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. > >> > > >> > So why should they do it? > >> > > >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content > >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example DAE/FBX is > >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. > >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of their > >> > choice to create content. > >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support the > >> > format in the compiler. > >> > > >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that write > >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, et al. > >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. > >> > > >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once > >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 because > >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had invested > >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have to > >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a Source > >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of plug-ins > >> > for Max. > >> > > >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels like > >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider adoption > >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders perspective, > >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next CSS/TF2/Portal > >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a > >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - not > >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. > >> > > >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start (and > >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) > >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy mxtk > >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. > >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually phase > >> > out SMD, etc. > >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source code for > >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from even > >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. > >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D window > >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible so > >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other apps. > >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end > >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm welcoming > >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. > >> > > >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... > >> > > >> > - Jed > >> > > >> > > >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: > >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates reference > >> > meshes, > >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight from 3d > >> > model / > >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? > >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you can > >> > combine > >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are formidable, > >> > > it > >> > still > >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. Don't > >> tell > >> > me > >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly having > >> > problems > >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows for > >> > combining > >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still pisses me > >> > > off > >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach of > >> > > most > >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but I'm > >> > surprised > >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. > >> > > > >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too many > >> > problems > >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it does it > >> > > in > >> a > >> > bit > >> > > of a backwards way. > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> > please visit: > >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: > 07/24/09 > > 18:24:00 > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
