They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders.
garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nick<xnicho...@gmail.com> wrote: > I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. > > On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<saul.renni...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> Seconded! >> >> Thanks, >> - Saul. >> >> >> 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman <lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> >> >>> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. >>> >>> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including >>> all my hard-earned research in this one? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris >>> <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: >>> >>> > My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work >>> fully >>> > with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >>> > lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had >>> trouble >>> > on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that >>> Faceposer >>> > requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >>> > >>> > I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely >>> lemons, >>> > not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >>> > >>> > Chris >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>> > [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry >>> > Pidcock >>> > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >>> > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>> > >>> > Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper >>> > that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very >>> visual >>> > language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >>> > translated into complex hlsl). >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------- >>> > From: "Harry Jeffery" <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> >>> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >>> > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < >>> hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>> > >>> > > I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. >>> =[ >>> > > >>> > > 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <voo...@voogru.com>: >>> > >> I like this one better. >>> > >> >>> > >> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>> > >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>> > >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly >>> > >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >>> > >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>> > >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>> > >> >>> > >> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my >>> > >> screen!... >>> > >> >>> > >> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> >>> > >> >>> > >>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >>> > >>> implemented >>> > >>> a >>> > >>> new feature. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >>> > >>> >>> > >>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> >>> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >>> > >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >>> > >>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>> > >>> >>> > >>> > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >>> > >>> Personally >>> > >>> > I >>> > >>> > see 4 different ones here. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > 1) Engine features >>> > >>> > 2) Tools Capabilities >>> > >>> > 3) Tools Availability >>> > >>> > 4) Tools Presentation >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >>> > >>> > features >>> > >>> or >>> > >>> > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's >>> > >>> > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >>> > need >>> > >>> > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are >>> > >>> > modding >>> > >>> > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve >>> a >>> > >> lot >>> > >>> > of >>> > >>> > money and brought huge success but they were also developed around >>> > the >>> > >>> > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >>> > these >>> > >>> > mods >>> > >>> > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an >>> > >> engine >>> > >>> > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add >>> the >>> > >>> > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >>> > >>> > really >>> > >>> > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a >>> drastic >>> > >>> > change >>> > >>> > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >>> > >>> > underway >>> > >>> > or >>> > >>> > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things >>> without >>> > >>> > a >>> > >>> > lot >>> > >>> > of work, if not at all. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I >>> > >> don't >>> > >>> > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >>> > >>> > allowing >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just >>> use >>> > >>> > a >>> > >>> > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >>> > converter >>> > >>> > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a >>> specific >>> > >> and >>> > >>> > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >>> > >>> > Especially >>> > >>> if >>> > >>> > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that >>> > the >>> > >>> > tool >>> > >>> > can then use. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be >>> open >>> > >>> > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at >>> > >>> > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >>> > >>> > personal >>> > >>> > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >>> > editor >>> > >>> and >>> > >>> > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better >>> designed >>> > >>> > tool. >>> > >>> > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of >>> > any >>> > >>> > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around >>> > and >>> > >> do >>> > >>> > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have >>> > >>> > bugs >>> > >>> > but >>> > >>> > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and >>> lead >>> > >>> > by >>> > >>> > example? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool >>> with >>> > a >>> > >> UI >>> > >>> > or >>> > >>> > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >>> > >> balancing >>> > >>> > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I >>> > >>> > feel >>> > >>> it >>> > >>> > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the >>> > >>> > way >>> > >>> it >>> > >>> > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what >>> they >>> > >>> > need. >>> > >>> > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >>> > would >>> > >>> > need >>> > >>> > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back >>> to >>> > >>> > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around >>> in >>> > a >>> > >>> hex >>> > >>> > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the >>> > >>> > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors >>> hiding >>> > >> away >>> > >>> > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the >>> > >>> > user >>> > >>> > and >>> > >>> > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might >>> be, >>> > >>> > at >>> > >>> > this >>> > >>> > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for >>> > >>> those. >>> > >>> > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it >>> > up, >>> > >>> > HLMV >>> > >>> > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about >>> simplifying >>> > >> and >>> > >>> > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development >>> > >> could >>> > >>> > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >>> > about >>> > >>> > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was >>> that >>> > >>> > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept >>> > >> would >>> > >>> > be >>> > >>> > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious >>> > >>> reason. >>> > >>> > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >>> > that >>> > >> is >>> > >>> > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious >>> > >> enough >>> > >>> > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >>> > >>> > users >>> > >>> > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to >>> > >>> > tackle. >>> > >>> > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a >>> bit >>> > >>> > of >>> > >>> a >>> > >>> > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are >>> examples >>> > >>> > of >>> > >>> > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys >>> > >>> > mod >>> > >>> is >>> > >>> > a >>> > >>> > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >>> > >>> > falling >>> > >>> > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best >>> > for >>> > >>> > Valve >>> > >>> > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears <benmea...@gmail.com> >>> > >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree >>> > >>> >> with >>> > >>> >> what >>> > >>> >> Jed said 100%. >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> great, thanks! >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >>> > support >>> > >>> >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that >>> StudioMDL >>> > >>> >> > supports. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >>> > and >>> > >>> >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >>> > >>> >> > support >>> > >>> >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >>> > >>> >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled >>> against >>> > >> the >>> > >>> >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to >>> have >>> > >> one >>> > >>> >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >>> > Therefore >>> > >>> >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >>> > the >>> > >> 3D >>> > >>> >> > app users themselves. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as >>> DAE, >>> > >>> >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >>> > >>> >> > compiler >>> > >>> >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >>> > *addition* >>> > >> to >>> > >>> >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > So why should they do it? >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content >>> > >>> >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example >>> DAE/FBX >>> > >>> >> > is >>> > >>> >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >>> > >>> >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >>> > their >>> > >>> >> > choice to create content. >>> > >>> >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >>> > the >>> > >>> >> > format in the compiler. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >>> > >>> >> > write >>> > >>> >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, >>> et >>> > >> al. >>> > >>> >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once >>> > >>> >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >>> > >> because >>> > >>> >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >>> > >>> >> > invested >>> > >>> >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have >>> to >>> > >>> >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >>> > >>> >> > Source >>> > >>> >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of >>> > plug-ins >>> > >>> >> > for Max. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels >>> like >>> > >>> >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider >>> adoption >>> > >>> >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders >>> > >>> >> > perspective, >>> > >>> >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next >>> > >>> >> > CSS/TF2/Portal >>> > >>> >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >>> > >>> >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >>> > not >>> > >>> >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >>> > (and >>> > >>> >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >>> > >>> >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy >>> > >>> >> > mxtk >>> > >>> >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. >>> > >>> >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >>> > phase >>> > >>> >> > out SMD, etc. >>> > >>> >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source >>> code >>> > >> for >>> > >>> >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from >>> even >>> > >>> >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >>> > >>> >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >>> > >> window >>> > >>> >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible >>> so >>> > >>> >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other >>> apps. >>> > >>> >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end >>> > >>> >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >>> > welcoming >>> > >>> >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > - Jed >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: >>> > >>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> > > >>> > >>> >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >>> > >>> >> > >> reference >>> > >>> >> > meshes, >>> > >>> >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >>> > from >>> > >> 3d >>> > >>> >> > model / >>> > >>> >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? >>> > >>> >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where >>> you >>> > >>> >> > >> can >>> > >>> >> > combine >>> > >>> >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? >>> > >>> >> > > >>> > >>> >> > > >>> > >>> >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >>> > >>> >> > > formidable, >>> > >>> >> > > it >>> > >>> >> > still >>> > >>> >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >>> > >>> >> > > Don't >>> > >>> >> tell >>> > >>> >> > me >>> > >>> >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >>> > having >>> > >>> >> > problems >>> > >>> >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >>> > for >>> > >>> >> > combining >>> > >>> >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still >>> pisses >>> > >>> >> > > me >>> > >>> >> > > off >>> > >>> >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >>> > of >>> > >>> >> > > most >>> > >>> >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but >>> I'm >>> > >>> >> > surprised >>> > >>> >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. >>> > >>> >> > > >>> > >>> >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >>> > many >>> > >>> >> > problems >>> > >>> >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it >>> does >>> > >>> >> > > it >>> > >>> >> > > in >>> > >>> >> a >>> > >>> >> > bit >>> > >>> >> > > of a backwards way. >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> > >> archives, >>> > >>> >> > please visit: >>> > >>> >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> > >>> >> archives, >>> > >>> >> please visit: >>> > >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> > archives, >>> > >>> > please visit: >>> > >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. >>> > >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> > >>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >>> > >>> 07/24/09 >>> > >>> > 18:24:00 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, >>> > >>> please visit: >>> > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> > >> please visit: >>> > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> > >> please visit: >>> > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> > > please visit: >>> > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > No virus found in this incoming message. >>> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >>> > 07/25/09 >>> > > 18:01:00 >>> > > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> > please visit: >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> > please visit: >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
