Linux-Advocacy Digest #317, Volume #27 Sat, 24 Jun 00 21:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages) (mark)
Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages) (mark)
Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages) (mark)
Re: What UNIX is good for. (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages) (mark)
Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Processing data is bad! (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Processing data is bad! (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh (Loren Petrich)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Leslie Mikesell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Subject: Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:58:55 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Greg Yantz) wrote in
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>For your needs, perhaps. If you actually need detailed information,
>>man pages are extremely useful. If you don't want to think, you have a
>>relatively common problem and need a guided troubleshooting
>>walk-through, then the Windows help system rocks.
>
>But man pages lack one thing - the ability to link to other man pages. You
>can't hyperlink to other topics, you have to start from scratch at the
>command prompt. HTML offers that, so why has Linux remained with its
>antiquated man system, when there are at least better alternatives?
Interesting - my dwww system does exactly that - the great power of
unix is that because of the standard interfaces, the man-html gateway
was written, someone else wrote the web front-end, someone else glimpse.
I have fully cross-linked completely searchable man & /usr/doc pages
on my linux system using standard debian packages.
'course, I don't have that in Windows.
--
Mark - remove any ham to reply.
"A compiler is a program that takes the pseudo-English gibberish produced
by a programmer and turns it into the sort of binary gibberish understood
by a computer." Linux for the uninitiated ... by Paul Heinlein
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Subject: Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:56:58 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Richardson) wrote in
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>Perhaps he is saying that linux is better for _him_ than windows. I know
>>I do. Perhaps windows is better for you, if so, you should consider
>>sticking with windows. Not to discourage you from trying linux, but you
>>don't post this stuff to any of the linux help newsgroups, just to
>>advocacy, why is that?
>
>I'm trying to point out to Linux bigots (i.e. not you as you're being
>fairly reasonable in the style of conversation) that the rants and raves
>they make is simply hot air!
Nah, Linux is definitely better for me. 'Course I'm not paid by
microsoft to say anything different.
>
>>And yet you didn't know much about man pages or cut and paste in X?
>
>I know enough about man pages to know it's an inferior help system. As for
>cut and paste on X it seems to be a precursor of what I've seen on better
>systems - by that I mean Windows.
The man pages are very superior in my opinion. The windows help system
is as near to useless as it's possible to get, in that it has no actual
information in it. I recall it also has a significant security hole in
it as well. The reputation of the windows help system is so bad that
there have been jokes written about it..
Pilot to building - where am i?
Building to pilot - you're in an aeroplane
Pilot to co-pilot - set a course for Dulles from Redmond - that must have
been microsoft's help.
--
Mark - remove any ham to reply.
"A compiler is a program that takes the pseudo-English gibberish produced
by a programmer and turns it into the sort of binary gibberish understood
by a computer." Linux for the uninitiated ... by Paul Heinlein
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Subject: Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:53:19 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mig Mig) wrote in <8hh4s4$5jl$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
>>Pete nobody is saying that Linux is perfect! If it was then there would
>>be no nead to improve it... i find many annoying things in Linux but i
>>allways come around them by doing a minimum of research.
>
>But you are saying Linux is better than Windows, and that is where I beg to
>differ.
Linux is better for me.
>
>>As abraxas pointed out.. .in order to get the best out of a operating
>>system - no matter wich one - you have to do an effort.... its really
>>not very hard to find the relevant information. You even have access to
>>the Internet and dont even try to search for info on deja.com or
>>websites.
>
>Internet access costs me money. I'm not living in America where local phone
>calls are free, they cost me money.
The UK is the cheapest place in the world for personal internet access.
Check the oftel page.
>
>>Youre just not up to the task of running Linux.. so why not just use
>>Windows that you know and serves you well and give up on trying to be
>>"geeky" - youre not succeeding at it (and its actually not very hard)
>
>8) Funny, that old PC 166MHz sitting near me is (gasp) running Linux!
Then why don't you replace it with windows?
--
Mark - remove any ham to reply.
"A compiler is a program that takes the pseudo-English gibberish produced
by a programmer and turns it into the sort of binary gibberish understood
by a computer." Linux for the uninitiated ... by Paul Heinlein
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: What UNIX is good for.
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:16:16 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote on Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:52:42 -0400 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> [snip]
>
> >LoseDOS won't install on the RS/6000 at work
> >LoseDOS won't install on any of the Suns.
> >LoseDOS won't install on any of the SGI's
> >LoseDOS won't install on any of the HP PA-RISC machines.
> >LoseDOS won't install on the CRAY.
>
> I remember that HP-UX had an emulator (that ran at the
> speed-equivalent of 22 Mhz!) for PCs/DOS some time back.
Not the same
LoseDOS doesn't support PA-RISC architecture.
>
> So, in a sense, DOS would install on HP-UX. I'm not sure
> that counts, mind you; VmWare today has a similar, and
> probably more sophisticated, setup that can even run
> Windows NT in emulation mode.
>
> (And think of the kinks in licensing! Is it one machine, or two? :-) )
>
> [snip]
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- did a Turing Machine have a EULA? :-)
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Subject: Re: HTML Help files (an updated set of man pages)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:00:11 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mig Mig) wrote in <8hp38b$r88$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>Nonsens.. we have gone trough this before. Man pages do offer hyperlinks
>>when used with both the GNOME and KDE help browsers - possibly other
>>interfaces but im not aware of that. The big difference is that its not
>>HTML based - and thats it.
>
>I was thinking of command line man, not the Gnome/KDE man pages.
Is that to compare it to the command line windows help system? As said
above - dwww & a browser of your choice is all you need. Works in text
or graphical mode.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:19:19 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aaron Kulkis) wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >> Why? What relevance does a task scheduler have to an application writer?
> >
> >If you don't understand how your processes and/or threads get scheduled,
> >then you effectiveness as a programmer is severely limited.
>
> That has got to be the most idiotic statement I have ever heard. Do you
> know how dymanic memory works on your system? Is it relevant to what you
> are doing? Of course not! When you drive a car, do you need to know how the
> infernal combustion engine works? Does that help you get home at night? Of
> course not!
Yes, knowledge of the scheduler IS relevant, as the scheduler
model has a direct effect on how one multi-programming technique
may compare vs. another.
Especially when it comes to things like resource starvation,
and race conditions with multiple processes competing for resources.
>
> I as an application programmer do not need to know how the underlying
> system works. Sure, I know how a scheduler works, I studied the one on
> OpenVMS and a few others. But it does _not_ help my effectiveness as a
> programmer. Where do you get these strange ideas?
Go work on a VERY large corporate database, and get back to me.
>
> Pete
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux MUST be in TROUBLE
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:19:53 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote in
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:17:43 GMT, Pete Goodwin
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >You should >>>definitely<<< know how dynamic memory allocation works on
> >a system. There is certainly no excuse for not knowing that. For the
> >application I am currently working on, I have written my own memory
> >manager, and do not use the OS to do memory management for me at all.
>
> I meant DRAM, you know, physical REAL memory, not dynamic memory
> allocation.
>
> >>I as an application programmer do not need to know how the underlying
> >>system works. Sure, I know how a scheduler works, I studied the one on
> >>OpenVMS and a few others. But it does _not_ help my effectiveness as a
> >>programmer. Where do you get these strange ideas?
> >
> >For certain types of programming, you should most definitely know how
> >the scheduler works, if you are doing anything with threads (which all
> >non-trivial programs do).
>
> Not for any of the types I've been involved with.
Which, of course ... encompasses ALL programming problem...
NOT!
>
> Pete
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Processing data is bad!
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:23:04 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Woofbert wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Nathaniel Jay Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> > > > Suppose I say that a Porsche looks like crap....
> > > >
> > > > What relevance is such a statement?
> > > >
> > >
> > > My god, could it be true? I finally see someone else that thinks
> > > Porsches look like crap. Those cars are the ugliest damn money
> > > guzzlers
> >
> > What do you expect from something that is a redesign of a Volkwagen
> > Beetle?
> >
> >
> > Ever notice how the little VW Beetle NAZI-MOBILE is the cherished
> > posession of so many hippy-dippy liberals?
>
> Ahhhh. Guilt by association. That's a good debate trick. I'll have to
> remember that one.
THEY are the ones who go around calling everyone else Nazis.
And THEY are the ones who propound that the symbolism of an
act is more important than the act itself.
They can't have it both ways.
If liberal Democrats they're gonna get all bent out of shape about
Confederate flags flying over capitols (which the SAME *DEMOCRAT*
PARTY put there in the first place), then they had better be
prepared to get the same "guilt by symbolism" shoved down
their throats as well.
>
> > > I've ever seen, but people worship them too. Maybe MS and Porsche
> > > are in on some sort of deal....
> > >
> > > Nathaniel Jay Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
> Woofbert <woofbert at infernosoft dot com>
> Datadroid
> Infernosoft: Putting the No in Innovation.
> http://www.infernosoft.com/woofbert/index.html
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Processing data is bad!
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:24:11 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote on Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:05:31 -0400 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> [snip]
>
> >Tim Shithead Palmer is trying to say that Unix doesn't do graphics.
>
> Unix *doesn't* do graphics; that's left to X. (And it does a damn
> fine job of it, too. :-) )
>
> About the only thing Unix might do is allow access to the bitmap
> display area through some sort of framebuffer, or by some other means.
>
> >
> >Pretty funny, considering how I was doing graphics applications on
> >Unix machines before MS-DOS was even offered on the market place.
>
> Indeed, and I remember using Unix in the early 1980's; even then,
> there were graphical terminals (basically, a VT100 with a
> bitmap Tektronix emulator, if memory serves). But this was at
I'm talking about graphics on genuine full-blown Tektronix terminals!
> school and the commercial houses probably had better equipment. :-)
>
> [.sigsnip]
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 00:25:17 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>There are two way of getting there: political and market way. I'm not aware
>of MS getting there via politics, I remember MS getting there via business
>deals. Which are ugly and harsh money talks sometimes, but hey, this isn't
>kindergarten. ...
Mr. MK shows his true colors here: his love of bullies.
Good dealmaking != good products
>"Programmers do not, of course, necessarily value the same things
> consumers do. "It drives the Valley nuts that the market may want
> something -- a standard platform for applications, backward compatibility,
> low cost, ease of installation, bundled products -- that conflicts with their
> notion of what is technologically superior," says another programmer who
> frequently gets into arguments with colleagues by defending Microsoft's
> success. "
Someone who jumps for joy at market lock-in. Maybe because he can
then make big money off of servicing defective software.
I myself would not pick on someone who sees using Windoze as the
lesser of two evils, but the lesser of two evils is *NOT* the same thing
as the best of all possible worlds. I've used several operating systems
over the course of my life, so I have more knowledge than most people do.
And I accept the ugly reality of market failure, as has happened here.
For example, widespread adoption of Linux would put the makers of
a *lot* of OS-maintenance software out of business, because it's
*extremely* reliable. So the makers of antivirus software, for example,
will not want Linux to be widespread, because it's much harder for Linux
to transmit viruses.
>>This has led to Microsoft more successfully
>> exploiting network effects to the detriment of it's rivals and leading
>> to a situation where none of it's rivals have that same benefit.
>Note: Krugman is liberal, ...
And Adam Smith is your patron saint. But look at what he had to
say about business leaders...
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Loren Petrich)
Crossposted-To:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.legal,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics
Subject: Re: Microsoft Ruling Too Harsh
Date: 25 Jun 2000 00:38:04 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
MK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Programmers do not, of course, necessarily value the same things
> consumers do. "It drives the Valley nuts that the market may want
> something -- a standard platform for applications, backward compatibility,
> low cost, ease of installation, bundled products -- that conflicts with their
> notion of what is technologically superior," says another programmer who
> frequently gets into arguments with colleagues by defending Microsoft's
> success. "
Ignoring, of course, abundant evidence of M$ crookedness, such as
its wars against DR-DOS, OS/2, and Netscape Navigator. Although many of
M$'s competitors have shot themselves in the foot several times, M$ has
had remarkably little faith in the fallibility of its competitors.
And preloading can make *anything* easy to install.
Linux distributions often have oodles of bundled products.
And Linux is the ultimate in cheap.
It should not be surprising that Mr. MK commented "Ditto", just
like some Rush Limbaugh follower.
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
[EMAIL PROTECTED] And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: 24 Jun 2000 19:37:45 -0500
In article <rN655.21957$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Daniel Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >If not, should Java be avoided until there is?
>>
>> The situation is less than ideal. But better than having
>> windows-java and everything-else-java.
>
>Why is that?
The whole point of java is that it is portable. Destroy
the portability and you have destroyed the language.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
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