Linux-Advocacy Digest #317, Volume #29 Tue, 26 Sep 00 15:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donovan
Rebbechi)
Re: How low can they go...?
Re: New Linux Install
Re: How low can they go...? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds this just
a little scary?
Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds this just
a little scary?
Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds this just
a little scary?
Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Yeah! Bring down da' man! ("2 + 2")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: How low can they go...? (Roberto Alsina)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 18:19:32 GMT
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:08:49 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>El mar, 26 sep 2000, Richard escribió:
>>I didn't say I didn't nead it you stupid fuck, I said that I
>>never expected it from this newsgroup.
>
>Oh, so now we are at the "stupid fuck" level of discussion?
>Allow me o remind you: "it's not that I [Richard] am slow, it's
>that I don't have a full lab [helping]".
>
>If you don't need the full lab, the lack of the full lab is not an excuse.
>Thus your venting your frustration here is just hot air.
See my post about "Chief seeks indians". The problem is that he wants to
appoint himself as "chief", but he doesn't want to earn the title.
He needs the full lab, because he lacks the competency to implement anything
himself.
The problem is that to get venture capital, research grants, or "indians",
you need to show your worth. And he seems unwilling or unable to do this.
Basically, he's a frustrated loser. If I was a loser, I'd probably be
frustrated too. It's understandable.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:29:52 -0000
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:28:22 -0300, Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>El lun, 25 sep 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
>>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:14:28 -0300, Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>El lun, 25 sep 2000, Simon Cooke escribió:
>>>>"Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>>>news:00092518190902.22210@pc03...
>>>>> El lun, 25 sep 2000, The Ghost In The Machine escribió:
>>>>> >In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> > wrote
>>>>> >on Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:09:57 -0000
>>>>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>>> >>On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:48:15 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>> >>>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> >>> wrote
>>>>> >>>on Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:17:30 -0000
>>>>> >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >[snip for brevity]
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>>> What's this "we" stuff? ppppffffttt!
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>Well, if you've never bought a computer with preinstalled MS software
>>>>ever
>>>>> >>>in your lifetime, then I suppose it would be just "we minus jedi". :-)
>>>>> >>>(It's possible!)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The last prebuilt computer I bought was an Atari 520STe.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Ah ha! Well, my apologies then; I was not aware of this. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? The Atari 520STe had MS software preinstalled, didn't it?
>>>>
>>>>No - it had GEM, which was Digital's GUI.
>>>
>>>Didn't it come with a basic interpreter?
>>
>> ...among other things. I paid more attention to the
>> paint program and word processor...
>
>Wasn't the basic interpreter, by chance, a MS basic interpreter?
>They had almost a monopoly in basics for that kind of computers.
I never paid any attention. I never needed too.
[deletia]
Choice is good this way.
I might have used that disc as a coaster or frisbee.
--
UNIX enhancements aren't.
All things being equal, you are bound to lose.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: New Linux Install
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:31:54 -0000
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:47:20 +1000, Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From what I understand, the new LBA32 extensions in LILO will circumvent
>this problem. I don't know much more about this as I haven't had to
>worry about hitting the 1024 cylinder ceiling yet.
>
>Would someone care to comment?
Paranoia doesn't incurr that much overhead.
>
>Chris
>
>"James M. Luongo" wrote:
>>
>> I plan on installing Linux Mandrake 7.1 for the first time. I need some
>> help. How big should the partitions be? And, I heard something about
>> LiLo not recognizing a Linux partition after a certain disk cylinder (or
>> sector, whatever). I think it was 1023, but I'm not sure. Is this
>> true? Help!
>> --
>> ------------------------
>> James M. Luongo x1427
>> Draper Laboratory Room 4207
>> ------------------------
--
I doubt, therefore I might be.
Progress was all right. Only it went on too long.
-- James Thurber
------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:36:55 GMT
"Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:00092609291302.19788@pc03...
> >>>> Why? The Atari 520STe had MS software preinstalled, didn't it?
[snip]
> >>Didn't it come with a basic interpreter?
[snip]
> Wasn't the basic interpreter, by chance, a MS basic interpreter?
> They had almost a monopoly in basics for that kind of computers.
Um... not really. Most people (once they got past doing silly crap in BASIC)
moved to Assembly language for those machines. More software was written in
assembler than anything else.
Simon
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds
this just a little scary?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:38:17 -0000
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:57:14 GMT, Tony Tribelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Tony Tribelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> : I'm not arguing whether various apps are bloated and buggy, some are. I'm
>> : not arguing about the politics around Microsoft, MS does act like a bully at
>> : times. I merely argue that WinNT itself is not a crappy OS. Feel free to
>> : offer some reasons why WinNT is crappy in your opinion, something other than
>> : it's not Unix please.
>>
>> But the things that suck about it ARE side-effects of the fact that
>> it's not UNIX. You can't really separate the two - gui is not remotable
>> without third-party add-ons, does not let you use devices like a
>> sequential file, COMMAND.EXE is bad for both scripting and interactive
>> use, etc. It's not fair to say, "Tell me what's wrong with this OS,
>> but you aren't allowed to compare it to the OS you like better." Without
>> comparing to some other proven method, complaining about the way an OS
>> does something is nothing more than baseless whining.
>
>You confuse "what's wrong" with what "you like better". Using your logic a
Alternately, one could use "what's wrong" ~ "what get's in people's
way when trying to use NT seriously". I know of one particular
company that is going to go through a whole world of hurt trying to
treat NT as they would trivially treat Unix.
Remote admin is a remarkably useful feature. It can even be used to
solve a novice home user's problems, to say nothing of corporate
exploitation.
NT is far too bound to an interface that it can't exploit well
remotely, and it's other interfaces are far too underdeveloped
to be useful without a whole lot of work done to turn NT into
some sort of Unix clone.
>WinNT advocate could say Unix sucks because it doesn't have his favorite
>WinNT capabilities. Both you and he are misguided with such statements. For
Beyond some vendorlock protocols, very few such things actually
exist. Even most of those exist in some form due to net result of
Microsoft trying to steal AT&T's intellectual property.
>an OS to be "crappy" IMHO it needs to fail to meet it's own goals and fail
>to deliver it's own advertised features and capabilities.
It can be "crappy" even if it fails at external goals. This
kind of thinking is why WinDOS has always been such a piece
of shit. Things like reliability have been turned into
"someone else's goal". Things like ease of use WERE also for
quite a long time were treated as "someone else's goal".
--
Mary Tyler Moore's SEVENTH HUSBAND is wearing my DACRON TANK TOP in a
cheap hotel in HONOLULU!
He that would govern others, first should be the master of himself.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds
this just a little scary?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:40:05 -0000
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:03:21 GMT, Tony Tribelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> : What's that have to do with the quality of the OS? That's a feature --
>> : gravy. And it's in Whistler so people will have it early next year.
>>
>> I suppose it depends on if you want to call the GUI part of the OS or
>> not. In UNIX it's a seperate application, But how functional is Windows
>> without Explorer and the GDI up?
>
>To be clear, Windows NT not Windows is the subject.
>
>From an administration point of view there are console based programs for
>much of the configuration and administration of a system.
Do tell,
>
>> : you're not since you're claiming it's poor at scripting and interactive
>> : use, both of which CMD does well.
>>
>> Sure, it looks like that so long as I'm not allowed to compare it
>> to bash, tcsh, or ksh. That was sort of my point. It isn't fair
>> to say, "tell me what's wrong with A, but don't ever refer to B",
>> when B has examples of better ways to do the stuff I don't like in A.
>
>I address the fallacy of that argument in another post, however if you want
>a Unix-like console and various tools add the Cygnus Win32 tools.
Is this just a bunch of character stream filters or can you actually
admin the system with those tools?
--
Money and women are the most sought after and the least known of any two
things we have.
-- The Best of Will Rogers
Soldiers who wish to be a hero
Are practically zero,
But those who wish to be civilians,
They run into the millions.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: SmartShip needs multiple platforms (Was: Am I the only one that finds
this just a little scary?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:42:09 -0000
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:31:39 +0100, Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"Steve Mading" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8qog5v$bvs$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Tony Tribelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> : I'm not arguing whether various apps are bloated and buggy, some are.
>I'm
>> : not arguing about the politics around Microsoft, MS does act like a
>bully at
>> : times. I merely argue that WinNT itself is not a crappy OS. Feel free to
>> : offer some reasons why WinNT is crappy in your opinion, something other
>than
>> : it's not Unix please.
>>
>> But the things that suck about it ARE side-effects of the fact that
>> it's not UNIX. You can't really separate the two - gui is not remotable
>> without third-party add-ons
>
>Free third party addons... VNC springs to mind.
SLOW, inefficient 3rd party addons.
[deletia]
>> It's not fair to say, "Tell me what's wrong with this OS,
>> but you aren't allowed to compare it to the OS you like better." Without
>> comparing to some other proven method, complaining about the way an OS
>> does something is nothing more than baseless whining.
>
>If the only difference is that it doesn't do that because it's implemented
>differently in Windows, then it is baseless whining.
You have not demonstrated that "different" is actually useful
in this instance. "different" is fine. AS/400's are "different".
Vaxen are "different". However, NT is no VMS.
--
Justice always prevails ... three times out of seven!
-- Michael J. Wagner
Chinese saying: "He who speak with forked tongue, not need chopsticks."
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?
Date: 26 Sep 2000 18:42:47 GMT
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:23:41 +1000, Chris Sherlock wrote:
>Perhaps so you can drag it around and put it on the desktop or in a
>folder?
You should be able to change the folder without "Dragging it around". But
of course, dragging it around is a nice thing to be able to do, which
is why KDE allows it
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Yeah! Bring down da' man!
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:49:31 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:34:25 -0400, Simon Palko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:42:02 GMT, Chad Myers
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>> >
>>> >"K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>> >>
>>> >> "Boris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>> >> news:avRe5.37215$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>> >> .....
>>> >> .....
>>> >> > Because SOAP is W3 standard, it's not os/vendor specific. However,
>>new
>>> >> run-time for VB,
>>> >> > C++, etc. and other elements of development framework (MS
Developer's
>>> >> Studio .Net edition)
>>> >> > will be supplied for Windows only by MS.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Boris
>>> >>
>>> >> What Microsoft is attempting to do here is extend their control to
all
>>or
>>> >> much of the internet just like they control millions of users of PC
>>with
>>> >> Windows. It might not be vendor but Microsoft will make the
>>standards and
>>> >> change them at it's whim.
>>> >
>>> >Black helicopters....
>>> >
>>> >Give me a break...
>>>
>>> Kerberos.
>>
>>So many people are so misinformed on this issue, that I'm not even going
to
>>correct you except to say that you're wrong. If you want more, let me
know,
>
> BULLSHIT!
>
> The extended the protocol (admittedly within the guideline of the
> spec)
Now we into the Jedi law office, and watch as the the knight himself does a
demonstation with his keen linguistic sword, jedi-style (actually a somewhat
juvenile fantasy style, no?).
As the liguistic sword slips and the Jedi nickes his own body, he turns to
the client:
"Yes, I have finished your contract."
Client: "Is it airtight. We don't want to make an agreement that has
surprises in it."
Jedi lawyer: "It's as airtight as it can be. It's got the Kerberos seal of
approval."
Client: "What about our spec? Does it specify a NDA limitation?
Jedi lawyer: "Don't worry about a thing, my friend. I have thought of
everything."
The Jedi lawyer picks up his liguistic sword again, speaking to it: "you
better be GOOD this time."
The client watches in horror as the Jedi lawyer chops off his own head.
And secretly breathes a sigh of relief: "I guess I'll need another lawyer."
2 + 2
>and then made access to the documentation subject to an NDA!
>
>>and I'll lay it out for you. But MS didn't do anything to break their
>>implementation of Kerberos, or to make it not function with other system.
>[deletia]
>
> The kerberos authors themselves were pissed over the matter,
> nevermind some nobody MS Shill.
>
>--
>
> Life is a grand adventure -- or it is nothing.
> -- Helen Keller
>
> Perhaps no person can be a poet, or even enjoy poetry without a certain
> unsoundness of mind.
> -- Thomas Macaulay
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:59:18 -0300
El mar, 26 sep 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>Ok, then get the funding and resources. Who's stopping you?
>
>*What* is stopping me? Unix dominance.
That didn't stop Bill Gates. That didn't stop Linus. That is not
stopping AtheOS, fer pete's sake!
>> You vent here because you are frustrated because your proyect
>> is going to take years.
>
>Wrong. I'm frustrated because even long after I finish my project,
>Unix will *still* dominate.
So little confidence... or so good forecasting capabilities...
>> Well, you would rather die than getting the
>> support, and you are not here asking for support, so, why are you
>> here again? Just venting without a purpose? How lame.
>
>Works for me.
Being lame works for some people some of the time.
>> >> >I have no moral duty to be "nice" to others.
>> >>
>> >> Are you a sociopath?
>> >
>> >As it happens, most sociopaths *are* "nice" (which I have
>> >always understood to mean superficial charm) to others (until
>> >they rape or murder them).
>>
>> That doesn't answer the question, does it?
>
>On the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised I score around 6 out of 40.
Psychopathy != Sociopathy. How was it... leant what the thecnical terms
mean before using them, you said?
>The cut-off to be diagnosed a psychopath is 30, so /no/ I am not a
>psychopath.
Good for you. Of course self-taken tests are not too good a diagnose.
> I have no doubt that most of the venture capitalists you
>suggested I get in touch with score > 20 and that many of them can
>be diagnosed as psychopaths.
How many venture capitalists do you know?
> Which is exactly why I'd rather slit
>my own wrists than be indebted to one. And it does suggest who
>*you* like to hang around with;
Are you saying I hang around venture capitalists? How would you
know that?
> probably "merely" out of crushing idiocy.
You are rarely ever indebted to a venture capitalist. You are confusing
them with loan sharks and shylocks.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:03:43 -0300
El mar, 26 sep 2000, Simon Cooke escribió:
>"Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:00092609291302.19788@pc03...
>> >>>> Why? The Atari 520STe had MS software preinstalled, didn't it?
>[snip]
>> >>Didn't it come with a basic interpreter?
>[snip]
>> Wasn't the basic interpreter, by chance, a MS basic interpreter?
>> They had almost a monopoly in basics for that kind of computers.
>
>Um... not really. Most people (once they got past doing silly crap in BASIC)
>moved to Assembly language for those machines. More software was written in
>assembler than anything else.
Sorry, but "not really" what, exactly? ;-)
I just mentioned it because Jedi replied to being asked about buying computers
with MS software preinstalled with "last I bought was a ST 520". Which, IIRC,
did have MS software preinstalled anyway, in the form of a basic interpreter.
That's all. No big thing :-)
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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