Thanks for the interesting comments on Spain vs. Italy
A few years ago there was some discussion that the vihuela sources
weren't so clear about the strict no octave policy. What is the current
thinking on this?
--
Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Antonio Corona <abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
Dear friends,
Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out,
supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree
with
Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can
read
Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in
Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish
Sociedad
de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful
in
dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things
Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's
contributions to the matter.
There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in
Spain
than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of
the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into
the
matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I
now
can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in
Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but
the lute.
With best wishes,
Antonio
__________________________________________________________________
From: Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net>
To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Mark Seifert
<seifertm...@att.net>
Cc: Lutelist <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support
of
the rather silly myth from his work, "A History of the Lute", p.221
Chapter VIII "The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain":
"At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a
lutenist
in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500.
Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th
century
were called 'violero' in the 16th."
-And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what
it's
worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict?
(Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled "Lutenist" in
1999
and "Vihuelist" in 2002).
Dan
On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
> Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute
> because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth.
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Seifert"
<[1]seifertm...@att.net>
> To: "Ron Andrico" <[2]praelu...@hotmail.com>; "Christopher Wilke"
> <[3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Dan Winheld"
<[4]dwinh...@lmi.net>; "Rob
> MacKillop" <[5]robmackil...@gmail.com>; "Howard Posner"
> <[6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "David Van Ooijen"
<[7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> Cc: "'Lutelist'" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>
>
>> Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most
fascinating
>> topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof
>> Brittany
>> Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally
>> expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an
important
>> date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was
imposed
>> in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from
>> their
>> ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She
>> didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like
>> innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the
>> lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute
belly
>> reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a
pregnant
>> woman, heaven forbid.
>> In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of
>> History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting
>> decades
>> before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse
>> effects of
>> eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid
of
>> all their witches wouldn't improve anything.
>> I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a
minimum
>> wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of
Widener
>> Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a
>> Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor
>> dusting
>> a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose
>> binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the
date
>> "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it
>> out,
>> opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook
discussing
in
>> incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was
>> studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it
covered
>> how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches!
There
>> were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I
suspect
>> the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the
century
>> caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job
than
>> the
>> crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in
one's
>> family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on
>> line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I
>> didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also
>> feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish
had
>> gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and
>> Germany.
>> Mark Seifert
>> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel
>> <[9]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
>> Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view.
>> Mathias
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [1][10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> [mailto:[2][11]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
>> > Chris Barker
>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM
>> > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong'
>> > Cc: 'Lutelist'
>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>> >
>> > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been
king
at
>> that time I'd
>> > call him a thug too!
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [3][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> [mailto:[4][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
>> > Monica Hall
>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM
>> > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong
>> > Cc: Lutelist
>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>> >
>> > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to
the
>> Taliban in
>> > Afghanistan.
>> > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our
cultural
>> heritage.
>> > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious
thug.
>> > Monica
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5][14]edward.y...@gmail.com>
>> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6][15]l...@pantagruel.de>
>> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml"
>> <[8][17]man...@manololaguillo.com>;
>> > "Lutelist" <[9][18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM
>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better
for
>> > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans,
just
>> saying...
>> > >
>> > > ========
>> > >
>> > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I
1/4IuI-I?I
>> 1/2
>> IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I..
>> > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt.
>> > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea
>> > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
>> > >
>> > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler
<[10][19]l...@pantagruel.de>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting
article
>> > >>
>> > >>
[11][20][1]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
>> > >>
>> > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an
inappropriate
>> set
>> > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism"
of
>> the
>> > >> English Queen.
>> > >>
>> > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that
>> England
>> > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain!
>> > >>
>> > >> All the best
>> > >> Mark
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an
>> > >>> inappropriate set of criteria.
>> > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world
because
>> most
>> > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point
of
>> view.
>> > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured
>> people
>> > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Monica briefly
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml"
>> <[12][21]man...@manololaguillo.com>
>> > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[13][22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM
>> > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative
>> > >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than
England
>> or
>> > >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion,
>> morality
>> > >>>> (for instance
>> > >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication
of
>> nearly
>> > >>>> everything.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978)
hits
>> the
>> > >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that
Satan
>> was
>> > >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks,
the
>> > >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the
attention
is
>> > >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in
Spain),
>> the
>> > >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european
>> > >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here
the
>> > >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead.
Only
>> two
>> > >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general
fear:
>> > >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more
>> pagan
>> > >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because
the
>> > >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any
>> case, it
>> > >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a
>> lesser degree than
>> > other countries."
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi.
Il
>> cosmo
>> > >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in
micro-history,
>> > >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well.
>> > >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that
>> past.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Manolo
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith
<[14][23]lutesm...@mac.com>
>> escribiA^3:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in
Dalza's
>> > >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points
to
a
>> > >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his
>> Ferrerese
>> or
>> > >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Sean
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> A word of caution here:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed
>> evidence
>> > >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great
deal
>> of
>> > >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of
these
>> > >>>>> formal, published works.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an
>> > >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally
Inquisitorial
>> > >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance
>> music;
>> > >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred
>> > >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider
>> repertoire,
>> > >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later
period.
Who
>> > >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the
Inquisition
>> > >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a
>> straight-laced as
>> > the vihuela tablatures make it seem .
>> > >>>>> . .
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Gary
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye
>> > >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian
>> > >>>>> Appalachian State University
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
>> > >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural
groups
>> that
>> > >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at
once.
It
>> was
>> > >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors,
scholars,
>> > >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his
>> doorstep,
>> > >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost
his
>> mind?"
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great
>> vihuela
>> > >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to
>> Italy
>> &
>> > >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Dan
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
>> > >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because
Spain
>> had
>> > >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had
>> moved to
>> Italy.
>> > >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile
courtiers
>> > >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time
on
>> their
>> > >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal
polyphony
>> they
>> > >>>>>>> could put their hands on.
>> > >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in
Fuenllana's
>> > >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published
books.
>> > >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in
>> Naples,
>> > >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time.
>> > >>>>>>> RA
>> > >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200
>> > >>>>>>>> To: [15][24]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> > >>>>>>>> From: [16][25]r.ba...@gmx.de
>> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all,
>> > >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in
Italian
>> lute
>> > >>>>>>>> music
>> > >>>>>>> and
>> > >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ?
>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks
>> > >>>>>>>> --
>> > >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please
excuse
my
>> brevity.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> > >>>>>>>>
[17][26][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> --
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:[27]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 2. mailto:[28]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 3. mailto:[29]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 4. mailto:[30]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 5. mailto:[31]edward.y...@gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:[32]l...@pantagruel.de
>> 7. mailto:[33]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>> 8. mailto:[34]man...@manololaguillo.com
>> 9. mailto:[35]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 10. mailto:[36]l...@pantagruel.de
>> 11.
[37][3]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
>> 12. mailto:[38]man...@manololaguillo.com
>> 13. mailto:[39]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 14. mailto:[40]lutesm...@mac.com
>> 15. mailto:[41]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> 16. mailto:[42]r.ba...@gmx.de
>> 17. [43][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:seifertm...@att.net
2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
3. mailto:chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
5. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com
6. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de
10. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
15. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de
16. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com
18. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de
20.[5] https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
21. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com
22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com
24. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
26.[6] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
27. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
30. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
31. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
32. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de
33. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
34. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com
35. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
36. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de
37.[7] https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
38. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com
39. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
40. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com
41. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
42. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de
43.[8] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
References
1. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
3. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
