I love this thread. Started as an open ended question about wadyathinkaboutthis and has become a Rorschach test for HIP interpretation.
First off, the I in HIP is informed, not identical. As our musicological and historical lutherie evidence grows, we can try to recreate and imitate aspects of original performance within modern limitations (maybe the sound was heard differently if half the audience had tertiary syphilis?!). Many of these things will impact the sound a lot, others minimally or not at all. If a piece was written for a 12 course lute and you play it on a 13 course instrument I don’t think you are losing its essence. For solo music I think the sound is quite different between single and double strung lutes, for continuo in a large band, maybe not so perceptible. Of course gut is a different sound to synthetic but if you don’t have the luxury of a humidity controlled hall and you are running from the airport to the gig with a 1 hour rehearsal, there’s no point having that better gut sound if everything goes out of tune every 5 minutes. What clearly is HIP is using the resources at hand for the gig of the day. I’m sure Weiss didn’t worry about finding a re-entrant theorbo to play continuo in an Italian opera (did he even play those?) when he had his d minor tuned German Theorbo at hand. If a continuo player got arthritis and couldn’t twist their wrist to play thumb out, I’m sure they did just fine recreating the sound thumb under. I’ve heard Sylvan Bergeron play continuo with his single strung archlute thumb under in anachronistic rep and it was both highly musical and audible. I’m relying on memory of reading concert notes or perhaps a CD booklet but I THINK the type of lute Vivaldi had in mind for this concerto is unclear or perhaps controversial. Given that it’s mostly single line alternating with chords, it’s not a stretch to play it on a Ren or Baroque tuned instrument. To the performance, listening with my eyes closed, there are things I like and things I don’t. I really don’t like the playing of the bowed strings. I do like the improvisational ornaments added to the solo line (although I think there were a couple trills starting on the lower note). Listening to some of the recordings I own, which of course is not a direct comparison with a live performance, I do prefer O’Dette, Lindberg, Lislevand and McFarlane to this, both for the solo playing and for the accompaniment but these are great players and all the performances (including the video) are good. With my eyes open watching the video, the right hand is very guitaristic with the thumb playing very un-baroque free stroke and a few finger rest strokes I thought I saw. For me, falls in the category of “they didn’t do it that way” but given the single strung instrument I don’t think it really changes the sound much. Danny > On Oct 11, 2016, at 6:16 AM, Diego Cantalupi <tio...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Let's say that his playing is quite irritating for me. > > Inviato da iPhone > >> Il giorno 11 ott 2016, alle ore 11:46, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> >> ha scritto: >> >> >> There is really nothing Segovian about it. >> >> A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc. >> >> RT >> >> >>> On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote: >>> The question is different: >>> >>> why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar >>> using an old fashon Segovian style? >>> >>> >>> Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto: >>>>> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are >>>>> absent is this. >>>>> >>>>> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. >>>>> Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without. >>>>> >>>>> RT >>>>> >>>> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s >>>> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask >>>> questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is >>>> little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses >>>> fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why >>>> someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any >>>> evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then >>>> one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more >>>> guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education >>>> as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an >>>> audience especially when playing in a group . >>>> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that >>>> there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has >>>> no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused. >>>> Best >>>> JL >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote: >>>>>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another >>>>>> version of RV93 played by Luca here >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog> >>>>>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for >>>>>> this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly >>>>>> noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that >>>>>> influences the overall sound (not only mics). >>>>>> JL >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> on a good authority of RT. >>>>>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension. >>>>>>> RT >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, JarosÅ‚aw Lipski wrote: >>>>>>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory? >>>>>>>> JL >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute >>>>>>>>> by Luc Breton. >>>>>>>>> RT >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, JarosÅ‚aw Lipski wrote: >>>>>>>>>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto >>>>>>>>>> attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca >>>>>>>>>> Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it, >>>>>>>>>> however I would be far from saying that this is a historical >>>>>>>>>> instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html >>>>>>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> It’s easier to >>>>>>>>>> play and was specially created with guitarists in mind. >>>>>>>>>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. >>>>>>>>>> Having said that, his performance from musical point of view >>>>>>>>>> was successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music >>>>>>>>>> on this list :) >>>>>>>>>> Best >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner >>>>>>>>>>> <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi >>>>>>>>>>>> <tio...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, >>>>>>>>>>>> and not. in D. >>>>>>>>>>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange >>>>>>>>>>>> for the violins. >>>>>>>>>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A. I believe >>>>>>>>>>> Giardino Armonico plays at A 415. I’m guessing the >>>>>>>>>>> pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re talking >>>>>>>>>>> about. This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright >>>>>>>>>>> bots. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same >>>>>>>>>>> concerto, sounding in D at A 415: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up >>>>>>>>>>> on this one. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
