Dear Tristan
You ask us to speak up, so I shall:
In my opinion all you propose is wishfull listening, and nothing else.
Therefore I cannot support your ideas.
Sorry, but you asked, and I'm not afraid to answer. From my end this is
the end of discussion and I shall not make any further comments or
reply (this is geting boresome).
Antonio
__________________________________________________________________
From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 9:08
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments,
instead those from the eristics bin?
So, officially I ask the list:
Does anyone of you support anything I say?
There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are
playing the tracks.
Don't be afraid to speak up.
It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please
ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically
flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or
worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or
purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is
not
a scientific magazine.
Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
> Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
> spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished
to
> put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard
evidence
> rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether
the
> whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
> So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through
the
> thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like
you and
> Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to
> Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
> continue.
> Martyn Hodgson
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
>
>
>
>
> 2 Apr at 12:10 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
> Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
> because there
> appears to be some similarities, various European early musical
forms
> must
> have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by
Monteverdi
> and
> others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
> It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
> properly developed
> paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
> seeking to have
> it published? - and when will it appear?
> Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
> logic employed
> in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not
imply
> causation. A
> mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you
will
> also be aware,
> a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will,
therefore,
> rigorously
> address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming
paper.
> Martyn Hodgson
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Ido Shdaimah <[1]ishdai...@gmail.com>
> To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
> Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
> Dear Tristan,
> The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
> In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on
exact
> points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called
Swarakshetras.
> The
> maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22
of
> them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for
each
> Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot
operate
> with
> in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
> Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during
the
> mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
> I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if
Raags
> and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
> probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in
theory
> treatises.
> You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a
deep
> musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is
EXTENSIVE
> direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting
here
> that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of
them.
> This would mean every single composer would have had to have
deep
> knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger
contact.
> Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
> acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious
about
> IC
> theory.
> Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have
to
> write
> it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to
Raags,
> using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras,
Raags,
> Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
> doing
> is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou
heard
> without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling
that
> no
> body else seems to hear what you hear.
> P. S.
> Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
> <[1][3][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Dear Jurgen,
> do you consider this an illusion too?
>
>
[2][4][4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-
rag
> a-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
> How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and
where
> the
> lute goes into cadence.
> How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a
regal
> organ
> in this context?
> You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music,
*not
> interested*??
> In a world that is constantly in need of music because there
were
> no
> mobile phones or even recordings?...
> This I only found because I believe that the influence is
true.
> If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved
anything
> -
> because I would not have tried.
> Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> > Dear Jurgen,
> >
> > I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of
the
> > discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
> > Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians
have
> been
> > brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading
goods,
> to
> > return to India later and tell about what would be available
for
> Indian
> > kings and their populace.
> > Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
> people and
> > culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit
Mission).
> > The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger
etc.
> > together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took
place
> > already in 1505/06.
> >
> > There are already many elements of Indian architecture used
in
> > Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the
16th
> century.
> >
> > What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
> >> Dear Tristan,
> >>
> >> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the
> described
> >> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first
Europeans
> to be
> >> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the
> Portuguese
> >> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices
(clove to
> start
> >> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and
categorically
> refuse
> >> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540
> fantasia by
> >> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's
> obvious,
> >> one just would need to listen carefully enough.'
> >> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research,
I
> just
> >> refuse to believe the impossible.
> >>
> >> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was
a
> period of
> >> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere.
> >>
> >> Best regards and respectfully
> >> Jurgen
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------
> >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
> >>
> >> JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi
> >>
> >> à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢ Original Message à ¢Ã
¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢Ã
¢
> >> On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann
> >> <[3][5][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Jà ¼rgen,
> >>>
> >>> posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does
not in
> anyway
> >>> touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect
does
> enable you
> >>> to apply it to everything you disagree with.
> >>> If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on
the
> subject
> >>> itself, otherwise it is not helpful.
> >>> It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories
have no
> basis"
> >>> to every claim that disagrees with reported events,
regardless
> of the
> >>> validity of the claim.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also
throw
> many
> >>> commonly done things into the bin:
> >>> The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same
thing.
> If
> a
> >>> soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with
motifs
> from a
> >>> chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are
accepted,
> why
> do you
> >>> deny any connection with Indian music?
> >>>
> >>> From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars
and
> fantasies
> >>> of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used
as
> the
> >>> framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model
example of
> this
> >>> similarity, and the book is even organized to display
these
> >>> similarities.
> >>> The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the
> disagreement
> >>> of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a
concept
> like
> >>> Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are
hallmarks
> of
> >>> different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of
scale.
> >>> This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology,
because
> Bhatkhande
> >>> organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish
enough
> the
> >>> properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often
> different.
> >>> The difference between up and down scale is to my
knowledge not
> >>> recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the
> problematic
> >>> concept of mode.
> >>>
> >>> From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to
cite
> from Lisa
> >>> Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already
found
> what I was
> >>> looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of
early
> deep
> >>> reception of Indian music.
> >>>
> >>> So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is
least
> fitting
> >>> together, why not do something productive like play
Fantasies
> in
> Indian
> >>> tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like?
> >>> The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together
> live.
> >>>
> >>> The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance"
> concert
> where
> >>> Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by
side,
> though not
> >>> simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone
does
> live what
> >>> I do in the mashups.
> >>> Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll
post
> the
> >>> link then.
> >>>
> >>>
>
>
[4][6][6]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-mus
ic-
>
>
festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-grea
> t-national-centre-for-early-music/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
> >>>
> >>>> For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment
how
> false
> >>>> claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by
some
> >>>> individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince
people
> >>>> precisely in this line of practice.
> >>>> To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki
> article
> >>>>
[5][7][7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
> >>>> Enjoy reading
> >>>> Jurgen
> >>>>
> >>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
> >>>> JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi
> >>>> à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢ Original Message à ¢Ã
¢à ¢à ¢à ¢Ã
¢à ¢
> >>>> On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann
> >>>> [6][8][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> This version is even better.
> >>>>> Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the
Donne di
> >>>>> Ferrara or
> >>>>> similar groups...
> >>>>>
>
>
[7][9][9]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-
62-
> eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Dear Lutists,
> >>>>>> Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet
> >>>>>> unification as
> >>>>>> Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the
Francesco
> >>>>>> background.
> >>>>>>
>
>
[8][10][10]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesc
o-ra
> g
> a-kamod-ronu-majumdar
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite
heavy for
> me to
> >>>>>> concentrate on the groove while playing right.
> >>>>>> But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria
of
> choice
> >>>>>> in the
> >>>>>> Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes
also
> have
> a
> >>>>>> certain
> >>>>>> overarching structure that must be followed, hence the
great
> >>>>>> similarity
> >>>>>> in many of the fantasies of the same mode.
> >>>>>> Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better
mix -
> the
> >>>>>> Raga is
> >>>>>> to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback.
> >>>>>> I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a
G
> lute.
> >>>>>> Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies
may
> appear when
> >>>>>> trying something.
> >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>>>>>
> [9][11][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[12][12]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 2.
>
[13][13]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-r
aga-
> kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
> 3. mailto:[14][14]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 4.
>
[15][15]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-musi
c-fe
>
stival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-nat
> ional-centre-for-early-music/
> 5. [16][16]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
> 6. mailto:[17][17]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 7.
>
[18][18]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-6
2-er
> i-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
> 8.
>
[19][19]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-r
aga-
> kamod-ronu-majumdar
> 9.
[20][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[21]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 2. mailto:[22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 3. mailto:[23]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 4.
[24]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag
> 5. mailto:[25]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 6.
[26]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-
> 7. [27]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
> 8. mailto:[28]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 9.
[29]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-
> 10.
[30]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-rag
> 11. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 12. mailto:[32]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 13.
[33]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-
kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
> 14. mailto:[34]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 15.
[35]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-fe
stival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-nat
ional-centre-for-early-music/
> 16. [36]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
> 17. mailto:[37]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
> 18.
[38]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-er
i-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
> 19.
[39]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-
kamod-ronu-majumdar
> 20. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:ishdai...@gmail.com
2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag
5. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
6. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
8. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
9. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-
10. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-ra
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
13. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-
14. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
15. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-fe
16. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
17. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
18. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-er
19. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
23. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
24. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag
25. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
26. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-
27. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
28. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
29. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-
30. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-rag
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
33.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
34. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
35.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/
36. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
37. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
38.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
39.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar
40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
