Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to
put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence
rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the
whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and
Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to
Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
continue.
Martyn Hodgson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
2 Apr at 12:10 PM
To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
because there
appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms
must
have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi
and
others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
properly developed
paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
seeking to have
it published? - and when will it appear?
Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
logic employed
in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply
causation. A
mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
also be aware,
a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore,
rigorously
address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
Martyn Hodgson
__________________________________________________________________
From: Ido Shdaimah <ishdai...@gmail.com>
To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan,
The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact
points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras.
The
maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of
them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each
Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
with
in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the
mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags
and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
treatises.
You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep
musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE
direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here
that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them.
This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact.
Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about
IC
theory.
Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
write
it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags,
using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags,
Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
doing
is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard
without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that
no
body else seems to hear what you hear.
P. S.
Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
<[1][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
Dear Jurgen,
do you consider this an illusion too?
[2][4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag
a-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where
the
lute goes into cadence.
How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal
organ
in this context?
You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not
interested*??
In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were
no
mobile phones or even recordings?...
This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything
-
because I would not have tried.
Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> Dear Jurgen,
>
> I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the
> discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
> Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have
been
> brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods,
to
> return to India later and tell about what would be available for
Indian
> kings and their populace.
> Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
people and
> culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission).
> The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc.
> together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place
> already in 1505/06.
>
> There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in
> Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th
century.
>
> What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?
>
>
>
> Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
>> Dear Tristan,
>>
>> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the
described
>> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans
to be
>> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the
Portuguese
>> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to
start
>> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically
refuse
>> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540
fantasia by
>> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's
obvious,
>> one just would need to listen carefully enough.'
>> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I
just
>> refuse to believe the impossible.
>>
>> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a
period of
>> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere.
>>
>> Best regards and respectfully
>> Jurgen
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------
>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>
>> JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi
>>
>> âââââââ Original Message
âââââââ
>> On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann
>> <[3][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Jà ¼rgen,
>>>
>>> posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in
anyway
>>> touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does
enable you
>>> to apply it to everything you disagree with.
>>> If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the
subject
>>> itself, otherwise it is not helpful.
>>> It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no
basis"
>>> to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless
of the
>>> validity of the claim.
>>>
>>> Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw
many
>>> commonly done things into the bin:
>>> The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing.
If
a
>>> soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs
from a
>>> chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted,
why
do you
>>> deny any connection with Indian music?
>>>
>>> From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and
fantasies
>>> of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as
the
>>> framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of
this
>>> similarity, and the book is even organized to display these
>>> similarities.
>>> The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the
disagreement
>>> of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept
like
>>> Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks
of
>>> different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale.
>>> This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because
Bhatkhande
>>> organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough
the
>>> properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often
different.
>>> The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not
>>> recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the
problematic
>>> concept of mode.
>>>
>>> From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite
from Lisa
>>> Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found
what I was
>>> looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early
deep
>>> reception of Indian music.
>>>
>>> So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least
fitting
>>> together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies
in
Indian
>>> tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like?
>>> The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together
live.
>>>
>>> The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance"
concert
where
>>> Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side,
though not
>>> simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does
live what
>>> I do in the mashups.
>>> Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post
the
>>> link then.
>>>
>>>
[4][6]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-
festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-grea
t-national-centre-for-early-music/
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
>>>
>>>> For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how
false
>>>> claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by some
>>>> individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince people
>>>> precisely in this line of practice.
>>>> To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki
article
>>>> [5][7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
>>>> Enjoy reading
>>>> Jurgen
>>>>
>>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>>> JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi
>>>> âââââââ Original Message
âââââââ
>>>> On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann
>>>> [6][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This version is even better.
>>>>> Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di
>>>>> Ferrara or
>>>>> similar groups...
>>>>>
[7][9]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-
eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Lutists,
>>>>>> Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet
>>>>>> unification as
>>>>>> Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco
>>>>>> background.
>>>>>>
[8][10]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-ra
g
a-kamod-ronu-majumdar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite heavy for
me to
>>>>>> concentrate on the groove while playing right.
>>>>>> But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria of
choice
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also
have
a
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> overarching structure that must be followed, hence the great
>>>>>> similarity
>>>>>> in many of the fantasies of the same mode.
>>>>>> Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better mix -
the
>>>>>> Raga is
>>>>>> to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback.
>>>>>> I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G
lute.
>>>>>> Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may
appear when
>>>>>> trying something.
>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>
[9][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:[12]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2.
[13]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-
kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
3. mailto:[14]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
4.
[15]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-fe
stival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-nat
ional-centre-for-early-music/
5. [16]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
6. mailto:[17]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
7.
[18]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-er
i-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
8.
[19]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-
kamod-ronu-majumdar
9. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag
5. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
6. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
8. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
9. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-
10. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-rag
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
12. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
13.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik
14. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
15.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/
16. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
17. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
18.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
19.
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
