I, also, find these emails on a supposed connexion between Renaissance lute music and Indian music to be tedious and exceedingly uninteresting.
Edward C. Yong ======== τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > On 11 Aug 2018, at 12:38 AM, Antonio Corona <abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Dear Tristan > You ask us to speak up, so I shall: > In my opinion all you propose is wishfull listening, and nothing else. > Therefore I cannot support your ideas. > Sorry, but you asked, and I'm not afraid to answer. From my end this is > the end of discussion and I shall not make any further comments or > reply (this is geting boresome). > Antonio > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> > To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 9:08 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: > Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod > Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, > instead those from the eristics bin? > So, officially I ask the list: > Does anyone of you support anything I say? > There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are > playing the tracks. > Don't be afraid to speak up. > It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please > ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically > flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or > worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or > purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is > not > a scientific magazine. > Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: >> Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as >> spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished > to >> put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard > evidence >> rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether > the >> whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.............. >> So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through > the >> thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like > you and >> Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to >> Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will >> continue. >> Martyn Hodgson >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> >> >> >> >> 2 Apr at 12:10 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net >> Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, >> because there >> appears to be some similarities, various European early musical > forms >> must >> have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by > Monteverdi >> and >> others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. >> It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and >> properly developed >> paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you >> seeking to have >> it published? - and when will it appear? >> Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal >> logic employed >> in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not > imply >> causation. A >> mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you > will >> also be aware, >> a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, > therefore, >> rigorously >> address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming > paper. >> Martyn Hodgson >> > __________________________________________________________________ >> >> From: Ido Shdaimah <[1]ishdai...@gmail.com> >> To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: >> Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod >> Dear Tristan, >> The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: >> In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on > exact >> points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called > Swarakshetras. >> The >> maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 > of >> them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for > each >> Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot > operate >> with >> in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. >> Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during > the >> mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. >> I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if > Raags >> and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would >> probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in > theory >> treatises. >> You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a > deep >> musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is > EXTENSIVE >> direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting > here >> that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of > them. >> This would mean every single composer would have had to have > deep >> knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger > contact. >> Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge >> acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious > about >> IC >> theory. >> Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have > to >> write >> it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to > Raags, >> using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, > Raags, >> Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are >> doing >> is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou > heard >> without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling > that >> no >> body else seems to hear what you hear. >> P. S. >> Are my messages coming out indented correctly? >> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann >> <[1][3][3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: >> Dear Jurgen, >> do you consider this an illusion too? >> >> > [2][4][4]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62- > rag >> a-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik >> How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and > where >> the >> lute goes into cadence. >> How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a > regal >> organ >> in this context? >> You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, > *not >> interested*?? >> In a world that is constantly in need of music because there > were >> no >> mobile phones or even recordings?... >> This I only found because I believe that the influence is > true. >> If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved > anything >> - >> because I would not have tried. >>> Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: >>> Dear Jurgen, >>> >>> I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of > the >>> discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent. >>> Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians > have >> been >>> brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading > goods, >> to >>> return to India later and tell about what would be available > for >> Indian >>> kings and their populace. >>> Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of >> people and >>> culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit > Mission). >>> The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger > etc. >>> together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took > place >>> already in 1505/06. >>> >>> There are already many elements of Indian architecture used > in >>> Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the > 16th >> century. >>> >>> What exactly is your argument against musical transfer? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: >>>> Dear Tristan, >>>> >>>> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the >> described >>>> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first > Europeans >> to be >>>> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the >> Portuguese >>>> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices > (clove to >> start >>>> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and > categorically >> refuse >>>> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 >> fantasia by >>>> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's >> obvious, >>>> one just would need to listen carefully enough.' >>>> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, > I >> just >>>> refuse to believe the impossible. >>>> >>>> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was > a >> period of >>>> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere. >>>> >>>> Best regards and respectfully >>>> Jurgen >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------- >>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." >>>> >>>> JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi >>>> >>>> à ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢ Original Message à ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã > ¢ >>>> On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann >>>> <[3][5][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Jà ¼rgen, >>>>> >>>>> posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does > not in >> anyway >>>>> touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect > does >> enable you >>>>> to apply it to everything you disagree with. >>>>> If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on > the >> subject >>>>> itself, otherwise it is not helpful. >>>>> It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories > have no >> basis" >>>>> to every claim that disagrees with reported events, > regardless >> of the >>>>> validity of the claim. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also > throw >> many >>>>> commonly done things into the bin: >>>>> The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same > thing. >> If >> a >>>>> soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with > motifs >> from a >>>>> chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are > accepted, >> why >> do you >>>>> deny any connection with Indian music? >>>>> >>>>> From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars > and >> fantasies >>>>> of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used > as >> the >>>>> framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model > example of >> this >>>>> similarity, and the book is even organized to display > these >>>>> similarities. >>>>> The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the >> disagreement >>>>> of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a > concept >> like >>>>> Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are > hallmarks >> of >>>>> different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of > scale. >>>>> This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, > because >> Bhatkhande >>>>> organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish > enough >> the >>>>> properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often >> different. >>>>> The difference between up and down scale is to my > knowledge not >>>>> recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the >> problematic >>>>> concept of mode. >>>>> >>>>> From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to > cite >> from Lisa >>>>> Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already > found >> what I was >>>>> looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of > early >> deep >>>>> reception of Indian music. >>>>> >>>>> So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is > least >> fitting >>>>> together, why not do something productive like play > Fantasies >> in >> Indian >>>>> tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like? >>>>> The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together >> live. >>>>> >>>>> The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" >> concert >> where >>>>> Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by > side, >> though not >>>>> simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone > does >> live what >>>>> I do in the mashups. >>>>> Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll > post >> the >>>>> link then. >>>>> >>>>> >> >> > [4][6][6]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-mus > ic- >> >> > festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-grea >> t-national-centre-for-early-music/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz: >>>>>> >>>>>> For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment > how >> false >>>>>> claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by > some >>>>>> individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince > people >>>>>> precisely in this line of practice. >>>>>> To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki >> article >>>>>> > [5][7][7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect >>>>>> Enjoy reading >>>>>> Jurgen >>>>>> >>>>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." >>>>>> JalÃl ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi >>>>>> à ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢ Original Message à ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã ¢Ã > ¢Ã ¢ >>>>>> On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann >>>>>> [6][8][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This version is even better. >>>>>>> Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the > Donne di >>>>>>> Ferrara or >>>>>>> similar groups... >>>>>>> >> >> > [7][9][9]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no- > 62- >> eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Lutists, >>>>>>>> Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet >>>>>>>> unification as >>>>>>>> Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the > Francesco >>>>>>>> background. >>>>>>>> >> >> > [8][10][10]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesc > o-ra >> g >> a-kamod-ronu-majumdar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite > heavy for >> me to >>>>>>>> concentrate on the groove while playing right. >>>>>>>> But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria > of >> choice >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes > also >> have >> a >>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>> overarching structure that must be followed, hence the > great >>>>>>>> similarity >>>>>>>> in many of the fantasies of the same mode. >>>>>>>> Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better > mix - >> the >>>>>>>> Raga is >>>>>>>> to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback. >>>>>>>> I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a > G >> lute. >>>>>>>> Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies > may >> appear when >>>>>>>> trying something. >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>> >> [9][11][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> References >> 1. mailto:[12][12]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 2. >> > [13][13]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-r > aga- >> kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik >> 3. mailto:[14][14]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 4. >> > [15][15]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-musi > c-fe >> > stival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-nat >> ional-centre-for-early-music/ >> 5. [16][16]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect >> 6. mailto:[17][17]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 7. >> > [18][18]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-6 > 2-er >> i-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii >> 8. >> > [19][19]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-r > aga- >> kamod-ronu-majumdar >> 9. > [20][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:[21]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 2. mailto:[22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 3. mailto:[23]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 4. > [24]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag >> 5. mailto:[25]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 6. > [26]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music- >> 7. [27]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect >> 8. mailto:[28]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 9. > [29]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62- >> 10. > [30]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-rag >> 11. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 12. mailto:[32]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 13. > [33]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga- > kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik >> 14. mailto:[34]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 15. > [35]http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-fe > stival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-nat > ional-centre-for-early-music/ >> 16. [36]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect >> 17. mailto:[37]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de >> 18. > [38]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-er > i-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii >> 19. > [39]https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga- > kamod-ronu-majumdar >> 20. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:ishdai...@gmail.com > 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 4. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag > 5. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 6. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music- > 7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > 8. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 9. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62- > 10. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-ra > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 13. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga- > 14. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 15. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-fe > 16. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > 17. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 18. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-er > 19. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga- > 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 21. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 23. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 24. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-rag > 25. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 26. http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music- > 27. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > 28. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 29. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62- > 30. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-rag > 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 32. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 33. > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik > 34. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 35. > http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/ > 36. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect > 37. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de > 38. > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii > 39. > https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar > 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
