Former Bin Ladin 'Bodyguard' Discusses Al-Qa'ida Stance on Saudi, Iraqi Affairs London Al-Quds al-Arabi in Arabic 26 Mar 05 p 17
[Part 8 of a series of interviews with Nasir Ahmad Nasir Abdallah al-Bahri, alias Abu-Jandal, formerly the "bodyguard" of Al-Qa'ida leader Usama Bin Ladin, by Khalid al-Hammadi, in Sanaa; date not given] [Al-Hammadi] Did you know anything about Bin Ladin's position on the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait? [Al-Bahri] I would like to say that according to the religious background and Salafi education we received in Saudi schools, institutes, and mosques, the Ba'th Party ideology was atheist and had nothing to do with Islam. We were brought up and educated on these ideas. The majority of people there continue to consider the Ba'th ideology atheist because it is based on the ideas of Michel Aflaq and the Arab Ba'th Party theoreticians. Therefore, Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin opposed Saddam Husayn's invasion of Kuwait. He called on the Saudi Government to allow for the recruitment of youths and to open the door of jihad in the land of the two holy mosques in order to defeat the Iraqi invasion and expel the invaders from Kuwait. That call was not meant to fight the Iraqi people. Bin Ladin had many reasons to call for jihad. His intentions were geared toward ending the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait and rescuing the Iraqi people from the domination of the Ba'th Party. Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin was dreaming of this. Therefore, he asked the Saudi Government to open the door for him. He said he was ready to prepare more than 100,000 fighters in three months. He used to say: "I have more than 40,000 mujahidin in the land of the two holy mosques alone." These were trained in Afghanistan. He said he was ready to prepare them within a few days. The number of other mujahidin outside Saudi Arabia was many times more. Had Saudi Arabia allowed that to happen, all would have participated in expelling the Iraqi forces from Kuwait, especially since Saudi Arabia enjoys a special religious status that concerns all Muslims because the two holy mosques are located there. [Al-Hammadi] It is well known that the Salafi current in Saudi Arabia is dominating all other currents. How could it agree with the jihadist current adopted by Usama Bin Ladin under the umbrella of the Al-Qa'ida Organization? [Al-Bahri] As I said, events make events. Shaykh Salman al-Awdah once delivered a beautiful lecture under the headline "Our Role in the Midst of Events." It spoke about events outside Saudi Arabia like Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, and Somalia. It noted that these events were far from Saudi Arabia but were taking place in our Islamic world. It hinted at plots against the Gulf region and oil wells. These lessons and hot news changed the awareness and realization of the youths of what was taking place around them. I recall that when Shaykh Salman al-Awdah called in his tape "The Industry of Death" for jihad in Somalia, concentrating on the US offensive on the Horn of Africa, the youths were at that time heading toward Bosnia-Herzegovina and a few went to Chechnya. Only a few remained in Afghanistan. He drew our attention to the importance of the issue of the Horn of Africa. Also we did not understand the dimensions of many of the developments taking place around us. All this was unknown to us. We might have heard the news of these developments in a transient manner without realizing their dimensions. Developments here and there, especially after 1991 and the war on Iraq, as well as the 1993 events in Saudi Arabia, which witnessed the arrest of shaykhs and men of religion, and the 1994 war in Yemen and the Saudi support for the socialists during that war and the ulema position on the Yemen war, all opened large horizons we did not think of before. In the past, our work was purely charitable and all our problems were internal. We did not have a strong connection with outside events. This continued until the events of Yemen, which, I think, shook many and created some sort of distinction between events. True, the Gulf crisis was strong, but it did not have a strong impact on the youths. Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin spoke about this. He then went to the men of religion and told them: "Fear God. How can you issue a fatwa [religious ruling] sanctioning the Americans' entry into the country. This is inadmissible." All these events took place inside the palaces of the ruling family. The public did not know what went on. The rulers even aired on television a fatwa by Shaykh Bin-Baz allowing the foreign forces to enter the country. We were very surprised how Shaykh Bin-Baz, who was known for his popularity and educational status, could sanction this. We did not know what was going on. Shaykh Bin-Uthaymin appeared on television the next day and addressed the people. He, too, sanctioned the entry of foreigners. At that time we were not aware of the issue of ideological argument against the unbelievers' deeds. Ideological education for the Saudi youths has now started to raise their awareness in this respect. But the position of the Salafi current on the ideology of jihad is well known. It has always opposed jihad but without giving reasons. The Salafi current was not oriented toward jihad. The youths did not have a clear idea about the various trends of the Islamic groups until we went out for jihad. As soon as we left for jihad from the large prison called the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, large horizons of knowledge opened up for us. We began to feel that we were completely absented from what was going on in our world. I recall that when we were in Saudi Arabia, the leaflets of Dr Muhammad al-Mas'ari were distributed to us in complete secrecy for fear that they might get into the hands of the merciless Saudi security services. We were brought up in Saudi Arabia on the concept of eat and remain silent. This is the prevailing concept of the kingdom's motto (two swords and a palm tree). This means eat from the palm tree and remain silent because the two swords are there to cut off the head of anyone who acts differently. We were brought up on this thought. The Saudi Government had its prestige and we were terrified by it. This, however, has changed now. It had negative results on the country and its government and people. Media blackout and failure to open dialogue channels reflected negatively on the country. I recall now one of the things Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin used to tell us. He said that when he went to see Shaykh Abd-al-Aziz Bin-Baz and Shaykh Bin-Uthaymin for talks with them on the issue of the Americans' entry into the Gulf, Shaykh Bin-Uthaymin told him: "My son Usama, we cannot discuss this issue because we are afraid." Shaykh Bin-Uthaymin said this while pointing to his neck as an indication that he feared beheading if he talked about that issue. [Al-Hammadi] In view of this situation in Saudi Arabia, did Usama Bin Ladin tell you what he did with the men of religion? [Al-Bahri] Yes, Shaykh Usama used to look at the men of religion and tell them: "You are the men of religion and people of positions. You must speak up and bravely announce your positions." Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin had even suggested providing the men of religion and the Saudi Government with mujahidin to expel the Iraqi forces from Kuwait and thus foil the entry of US forces into the region, but they rejected his offer. Bin Ladin told them: "I am ready to prepare 100,000 fighters with good combat capability within three months. If the Iraqi army has an eight-year experience of war with Iran, these mujahidin have longer experience and they are ready to wage wars and defend you." The Saudi leaders, however, did not give this offer any attention because they were controlled by others and they obeyed their orders blindly. There was no room for any discussion. All these things opened new horizons for the youths, broadened their mental faculties, and changed their positions. For example, I lived in Saudi Arabia as a Yemeni expatriate up to the 1990 Gulf war. I enjoyed the rights and social relations enjoyed by any Saudi citizen. We lived together as one family. This, however, changed much, particularly after the Yemeni war in 1994. We were surprised to see the Saudi Government side with the Yemeni socialists in the war although it was against socialism. I recall that a colleague of mine in the Saudi Navy once came to bid me farewell. I asked him where he was going. He answered by saying he was going to attack the western Yemeni coast. I was surprised and asked about the connection between Saudi Arabia and the Yemeni coast. He said: "We received orders to go there for an operation against the coasts of Al-Hudaydah and Al-Makha." I asked him: "Why would you strike at the Muslims there and you are a Muslim army and even the fatwas issued by men of religion stress that the war raging there is an internal problem?" This issue showed that we were not aware of what was going on around us. A Saudi colleague of mine, who was working in the Saudi Air Force, once told me that he and his air squad received orders to strike at the Yemeni government forces (forces of the legitimate government in Sanaa). I asked him: "Why do you want to strike at the Yemeni forces? Are they not Muslims? Why strike at these forces while their enemies in the battlefield are Socialists and these socialists are infidels and renegades as we have been taught?" I was further confused by the Saudi Government's defense of the socialists. I asked my friend: "Did you obey the military orders to attack the Yemeni forces?" He answered: "Are we crazy to bomb Muslims? We dropped the bombs in the desert and returned. This is a decision I made together with all pilots of the air squad after seeking the opinion of the men of religion. They did not allow strikes on the legitimate Yemeni Government forces." These issues generated an internal conflict within ourselves and prompted us later to think deeply of the reasons. When we went abroad and began to mix with the world of jihad, we argued about some issues until jihad against America was announced. Some members of the Salafi current asked in surprise: "Jihad against America?!" Some of them even said: "America knows everything about us. It knows even the label of our underwear." This was the result of the psychological defeat America planted in their hearts. Therefore, we began to concentrate on some Salafi students and engaged with them in a detailed dialogue on jihad. After reaching certain convictions with them, we asked them: "Why do you not go to Afghanistan to know true jihad and what is taking place there and then you can decide about jihad?" The purpose was getting them out of the closed Saudi environment so that they would open their eyes and minds. The doors of scientific independent judgment will then be opened for them instead of depending only on what is reported to them. We used to tell them to research and discuss things with others. Some of them were convinced of the idea of going to Afghanistan. Some went to Afghanistan with the purpose of opening constructive dialogue there about what Usama Bin Ladin said about jihad. Others went there to return the young mujahidin from there, but they were convinced of the idea of jihad as announced by Bin Ladin after discussing this issue with their leading shaykhs. An extraordinary jihadist Salafi current had thus emerged. It was completely different from the jihad current. [Al-Hammadi] You said Bin Ladin offered to expel the Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Did he propose this to the Saudi Government or the men of religion? [Al-Bahri] According to Bin Ladin, he proposed this to a senior official in the Saudi Government. He told him: "We are ready to get the Iraqi forces out of Kuwait." But the state policy at that time showed that the issue had already been decided and the US forces had to be called in to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait. Therefore, the government moved in the direction of seeking US assistance although the problem could have been solved through the Arab League and the Organization of Islamic Conference [OIC]. The OIC member states have huge forces and these are sufficient to solve the problem. Had these been used, the assistance of US and other foreign forces would have been unnecessary. Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin made his offer to the Saudi Government as well as to Muslim scholars and men of religion. He tried to convince them of his idea and asked them to educate people about the danger of seeking the help of foreign forces. He presented an integrated military program and asked them to open training camps for the young and recruit the jobless. He also called for implanting the military spirit in their minds. He got into a heated argument with them in this regard and they were angry with him. We were surprised why Saudi Arabia rejected Bin Ladin's offer. We, however, understood the reason after some time. We learned that it was a US scheme to invade the region. That was met with an internal defeat. The Gulf States allowed foreign interference to protect themselves. We also learned that the Saudi rulers contacted the men of religion and asked them to issue fatwas about the subject. That came too late. I recall that Shaykh Abd-al-Aziz Bin-Baz said the Saudi regime did not call in the Americans only after the fatwa. He said the Americans had already been there in the region. Nevertheless, the Saudi Government told him: "O shaykh, if you do not issue a fatwa allowing Muslims to seek the assistance of US and other foreign forces, sedition will erupt in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The mujahidin will then clash with the US forces, triggering sedition. Besides, the Iraqi Ba'th forces are at the door." [Al-Hammadi] What did Bin Ladin think of ousted Iraqi President Saddam Husayn and other Arab leaders? [Al-Bahri] I remember that we used to talk about the Arab leaders and criticize their weak positions. Some of the brothers used to say: "Shaykh Usama, we want to carry out an operation against this or that Arab leader because the Egyptian, Iraqi, and other governments are apostate governments." They were very zealous. He used to answer them: "Leave them alone and do not preoccupy yourselves with them. They are scum and belong to the group of Abdallah Bin-Ubay, leader of the hypocrites at the time of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. When they witness the defeat of the United States, they will be in their worst situation." Shaykh Usama did not distinguish between the Arab leaders and the Americans. He did not see any difference between them. He considered them the same. But his strategy of work was against striking at the Arab countries or carrying out attacks inside the Arab countries. [Al-Hammadi] Can you explain this? [Al-Bahri] The Syrian Government, for example, was largely criticized by the Islamic groups. Many of these groups had ideological differences with the ruling regime in Syria. These differences might reach the point of considering it an apostate regime. This is so although we might militarily agree with Syria on many issues. They might allow us to cross their country and might support us. That, of course, was in the past. The situation has now changed and the Syrians are now part of the international alliance. [Al-Hammadi] Did Bin Ladin consider the United States his only target? [Al-Bahri] Yes, he considered it his only target. Therefore, he restricted the activities of his organization to the United States. He was not considering work in any Arab country. Shaykh Usama used to say on various occasions: "There are some Arab countries which cannot stand the battle for even a week. If we concentrate on them we will completely defeat them and topple entire regimes." He also said: "I can topple the regime in two or three Arab states because these are not states in the true sense of the word and their leaders are not up to the level of responsibility. We must completely topple the United States and we hope to be the ones who can topple its entire system." Shaykh Usama followed this policy and I think he largely succeeded in it. [Al-Hammadi] What about Al-Khubar incidents in Saudi Arabia? Do you think Al-Qa'ida was behind them? [Al-Bahri] No, I learned from Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin himself that Al-Qa'ida had nothing to do with Al-Khubar incidents. He, however, always prayed to God to have mercy on those who were killed in that operation like brothers Muslih al-Shamrani, Khalid al-Sa'id, Abd-al-Aziz al-Mu'atham, and Riyad al-Hajiri, in addition to the four martyrs who were accused of carrying out Al-Riyad operation and who were executed by the Saudi Government without investigation. Even the US Government was angry with Saudi Arabia for executing them without investigation and without informing the Americans about this. Things looked as if these were used as scapegoats. I recall that a month before the execution of the four, the mujahidin issued a warning stating that if the four are executed the response would be painful to the regime. Defense Minister Prince Sultan Bin-Abd-al-Aziz responded to that warning by saying these were childish games. Following the execution of the four there came the reply in the Al-Khubar operation. The executers issued a statement confirming this. They said the operation was carried out to avenge the execution of the four. What I knew from some of the brothers who lived with the mujahidin was that the Al-Khubar operation was carried out to avenge the execution of the four who carried out Al-Riyad operation, and that Al-Riyad operation was carried out to avenge the killing of Shaykh Abdallah al-Hudayf in Saudi jails in 1995. Shaykh Abdallah al-Hudayf once mutilated the face of a Saudi investigating officer, who tortured people in prisons, by spraying acid on his face. The shaykh was arrested and tortured to death. Many of the brothers close to him said they did not see any trace of execution. They stressed that he was killed in detention and buried in an unknown place so that none would know his location. Many of the people who worked with Shaykh Miflih al-Shamrani cited him as saying: "By God we will not be men if we do not avenge the death of Shaykh Abdallah." Therefore, all these operations are retaliatory operations linked to one another. Al-Riyad operation was carried out to avenge Shaykh Abdallah al-Hudayf's death and Al-Khubar operation was carried out to avenge the execution of the four suspects of Al-Riyad operation. Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin had nothing to do with these operations. [Al-Hammadi] Did they have any connection with Al-Qa'ida and were they in Afghanistan or elsewhere? [Al-Bahri] Not at all. Even the televised dialogue the security agencies conducted with them as aired by the Saudi television was dictated on them. In it they said they were influenced by Muhammad al-Maqdisi's books and Usama Bin Ladin's messages. The security agencies forced them to say what they said. It was clear during the conversation that they said what they were prompted to say. As for the story of their relationship with Usama Bin Ladin and his influence on them, I wonder how they were affected by Bin Ladin's speeches. I think that was an excuse uglier than guilt and it was unacceptable. Al-Maqdisi's books and Bin Ladin's speeches were there in Saudi Arabia long before then and they were not influenced by them, so how could they be influenced by these books and speeches overnight? Therefore, I reaffirm that this operation came in reply to the death of Shaykh Abdallah al-Hudayf. This is well known by all our brothers there. [Al-Hammadi] Why did Al-Qa'ida not carry out military operations in Israel, where there was a battle with the Arabs and Muslims? [Al-Bahri] It wished to do so, but one should not forget the role the Arab cordon states [states neighboring Israel] play in defending the Israeli borders, particularly the two Arab neighbors of Israel [not further identified]. Moreover, Shaykh Usama believed that Islamic Jihad and HAMAS in Palestine carried out their duty quite well. He felt he was duty bound to support these two groups in an indirect manner by cutting off the head of the serpent and striking at the big head which backs and finances Israel, that is, America. People know that had it not been for the US veto, Israel would not have survived a two-week battle with HAMAS or Islamic Jihad, not to mention the Arab armies. These were sufficient to defeat Israel, but the US and Arab backing of Israel and the international support for it enabled it to survive. Shaykh Usama used to say: "If America falls, the other regimes, including Israel, will fall." [Al-Hammadi] Do you think the young mujahidin, who are influenced by Al-Qa'ida ideology, will use Saudi Arabia as a back stage and springboard to fight the Americans in the region, particularly in Iraq? [Al-Bahri] As reported in the news, many of the mujahidin were arrested in Iraq. If we examine the pictures or names of these mujahidin, we will find that they were new young people who did not fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, or anywhere else. They were Saudis and others from various nationalities. The Iraqi interior minister spoke about this in detail. But the question is: Who sent these young men to Iraq? Events produced them and the conflict prompted them to go there. What is currently taking place in Iraq will prompt others to go there to fight the Americans. This is similar to the situation which prompted others before them to go to Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya. Every event has its men, and as is said, every time has its state and men. [Al-Hammadi] Does this mean that the Iraqi events created or might create a new Al-Qa'ida organization? [Al-Bahri] This is possible. Al-Qa'ida Organization will then be the brain guiding others. Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin has recently called on all armed groups to merge under the leadership of Abu-Mus'ab al-Zarqawi. Merger is a very strong trend. I believe that many organizations will come under the leadership of Abu-Mus'ab al-Zarqawi. Al-Zarqawi and his small group alone could so much against the US forces in Iraq, so imagine how things will be when all unite under one leadership. Bin Ladin's endorsement of Al-Zarqawi as an emir [prince] in Iraq means that Al-Qa'ida organization is reshuffling its cards in Iraq quite well. [Al-Hammadi] In view of the current events in Iraq, do you think Al-Qa'ida has a large presence there? [Al-Bahri] Yes, Al-Qa'ida members are present in Iraq, but I do not know the size of their presence. Their presence is now clear, especially after Shaykh Usama's call on all fighting groups in Iraq to join Al-Zarqawi's group and declare allegiance to him. I think this will expand the circle of Al-Qa'ida activities there and increase the number of the members present there. After the fall of Saddam Husayn's regime in Iraq, many of the former Iraqi members of Al-Qa'ida began to contact each other and form a united front to fight the US forces there. They formed a nucleus for the ones who followed them in raising weapons against the US invaders. [Al-Hammadi] It is reported that the United States exploited the card of Al-Qa'ida to swoop down on the Islamic world and occupy it as happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. What is your reply to this? [Al-Bahri] America has primarily served Bin Ladin. Yes, America has primarily served Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin and Al-Qa'ida Organization. When Shaykh Usama attacked America he wanted to expose it to the Islamic world. He also sought to expose its evil. This is what really happened. After the 11 September events, America stopped trusting any of its cadres. It stopped trusting even its officers and officials. It is incorrect to say that Washington used Al-Qa'ida to swoop down on the Islamic world. America entered Iraq and before that Afghanistan as part of a long-term plan aimed at occupying the whole region. It wants to revive the history of the 1930s, 1940s, and 1970s. It wants to restore the French, British, and Italian colonialism of the region. America wants to occupy the whole region. Shaykh Usama and Al-Qa'ida Organization were only a strong thorn in the throat of America. They caused it indigestion in swallowing up our Islamic world and prevented it from implementing its terrible scheme. The occupation of Iraq was not at all justified. I think the emergence of Al-Qa'ida Organization with this strength and superior capability in the circle of international events has created some sort of balance in international relations after the domination of the world by one pole, which is America. This happened after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We hope that Al-Qa'ida Organization will be the reason for the collapse of the American pole in the same way as Afghanistan was the reason for the collapse of the former Soviet Union. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give underprivileged students the materials they need to learn. Bring education to life by funding a specific classroom project. http://us.click.yahoo.com/FHLuJD/_WnJAA/cUmLAA/TySplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> -------------------------- Want to discuss this topic? Head on over to our discussion list, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -------------------------- Brooks Isoldi, editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.intellnet.org Post message: osint@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** FAIR USE NOTICE. This message contains copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. 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