Peter,
I have to correct you on one point. I did not say that the 30% not following a
relegion was not
the same as not believing in god.
What I said was:
>I don't think he said that 30% were atheists, Peter, in fact, the percentage of
>>those is
actually very small. What Howard is doing for most of them is >subjugating them to the
Christian
God - something Muslims and a host of >other religions mind very much. But you're
right, of
course, the effect of the >strategy is the same.
To elaborate on this - not being an atheist does not mean automatically that there is
believe in
'God' ie a being most Christians worship.
Some of these non-atheists believe in Allah (no, he is not the same as the Christian
God - 'there
is NO God but Allah), some believe in the Goddess, some believe in a multiplicity of
gods and
goddesses and yet others believe in Odin, Thor and the rest of the Norse Pantheon. Yet
others
believe in no god or gods yet are not atheists.
Most of these diverse believers also don't bother to elaborate for the census and
many, because
they are not Christians, nominate 'no religion'.
So, in order not to offend the 30% percent or so who don't believe in the Christian
God, and our
Aboriginal brothers and sisters who maintain their own spiritual traditions, I think a
reference
to 'Allmighty God' would be totally out of order in a document that purports to
represent all of
us. I would say the majority of Australians hold something sacred and this should be
recognised
but only in inclusive language.
Trudy
Peter Yager wrote:
> Good evening all,
>
> I am finding these contradictory arguments a bit hard to follow. If I may
> play devil's advocate (another entity supported by even fewer people, but I
> digress) for a moment, without being labelled myself one way or another and
> getting people off-side.
>
> Sorry I jumped the gun and misread "do not recognise any religion at all"
> as being atheists, but isn't that the issue - those who do not believe in
> God, ie atheists, will be offended. If the number of atheists is indeed
> quite low, as Trudy and Rod assert, (and regretting that atheists, and
> agnostics, will be offended, but then name anything that does get 100%
> agreement) than surely it is fair enough to include a reference to a belief
> held by the overwhelming majority of Australians, and a form of words can
> be found that incorporates the diversity of that belief.
>
> Rod, you quoted a lot of statistics which boil down to the conclusion that
> between 16.6% and 31% (allowing for growth) follow no religion. As Trudy
> points out this is not the same as not believing in God, the preamble
> statement would not claim that Australians follow a religion, but recognise
> that Australians believe in God, which the census apparently says is true.
> To go the other way and claim that we are a secular state, ie "concerned
> with the affairs of this world, not spiritual or sacred" (Oxford Dict.), is
> even more extreme than including a God reference and will offend a greater
> number. It certainly does not recognise what we claim for the spirituality
> of Indigenous culture.
>
> Nevertheless, all that said, I think the indigenous references will be lost
> if too many contentious issues are included in the same question.
> Disempowerment increases as the number of questions put at referenda
> decrease, instead we should be asked to assent to each part separately.
> Anything else is tactical manoeuvring.
>
> Please read this in the spirit it was intended, no offence meant.
>
> Regards,
> Peter.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rod Hagen
> > Sent: Monday, 22 February 1999 18:06
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [recoznet2] RE: ABC Newslink - Labor Member
> > questions God's
> > inclusion inpreambl
> >
> >
> > At 08:33 AM 22/2/99, Trudy and Rod Bray wrote:
> > >I don't think he said that 30% were atheists, Peter, in fact, the
> > >percentage of those is actually
> > >very small.
> >
> > The last census doesn't indicate that 30% are atheists.
> >
> > It does, however indicate that 16.6% of people indicated that
> > they followed
> > no religion in 1996 and that a further 9% didn't answer the question.
> >
> > Moreover the number of people indicating no religion had
> > grown by some 35%
> > since the previous census compared with, for a example, a
> > 2.9% fall in the
> > number of people identifying as Anglican.
> >
> > If the same growth/fall rates have been sustained since 1996
> > there are now
> > far more atheists / agnostics in Australia than there are Anglicans.
> >
>
> <snip>
> > (source ABS Web data on religious affiliation.)
> >
> > My own view is that the preamble should state that we are a
> > secular state,
> > which recognises the freedom of people to either believe, or
> > not believe,
> > as their personal conscience dictates.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Rod
>
> <snip>
>
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