Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
bert van vreckem wrote: For info on the chord notation, see http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desmith/guitar/chords/notate.htm Hm! His notation seems very guitar-oriented (that's OK I've played guitar for over 35 years). He calls xx0233 (notes are xxDADG) "Dsus4" presumably because there is a 4th but no third. Alas, he doesn't quote x32011 as a chord at all (notes xCEGCF) Would he call it Cadd11 (because it has both a third and a fourth) or would he call it Csus4. My confidence that he knows his stuff is eroded a little by the absence of 076700 as a version of E7. (If you have a guitar, try it. It's the best seventh on the instrument). He quotes only 020100 or 022130. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
John Chambers said: A key signature looks remarkably like a chord, but "min" is allowed for the one and not the other. I thought a key signature had K: before it and a chord had " " round it. :-) Maybe, just to avoid this confusion, we should adopt the general rule for both chords and modes that they may be abbreviated to three characters, and "m" is a special case that is a synonym for "min" and "minor". I prefer "F#m" to be the canonical way to write the chord of F sharp minor because it fits into tadpoles notation more briefly. Long chord names just take up too much room, especially if there are several per bar. I realise this is not a pure ABC thing and is concerned with translation to another form. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Thanks. So Gsus would be G with an augmented third. I had understood that a "suspended" chord was one where a note from the previous chord (very often the 4th) was made to continue sounding in the new chord. I'd prefer the notation G4 to be the canonical ABC. Laurie - Original Message - From: Bert Van Vreckem [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] Chord notation Laurie Griffiths wrote: Mike Whitaker said sus sustained What does this mean? Muse doesn't allow it because I've never heard of "sustained" as the name of any chord. It's suspended (fours), actually, notated as `sus' or `sus4'. Quite frequently used guitar chord too. The trick is to replace the third by the fourth, e.g. D = D F# A becomes Dsus4 = D G A E.g. EADGBE - guitar tuning Dsus(4) = D G A = x00233 (E,,A,,D,G,B,E in abc-notation ;-)) Asus(4) = A D E = x02230 etc. For info on the chord notation, see http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desmith/guitar/chords/notate.htm There's also a suspended second chord, in which the third is replaced with the second, e.g. Dsus2 = D E A (= 000230 on the guitar), Asus2 = A B E = 002200. (source: Dansm's guitar chord theory http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desmith/guitar/chords/susp.htm) bert -- bert van vreckem echo bexryt.vzaxnvrexckyemqxadvyaxlvasz.bxe|sed -e "s/[x-z]//g;s/q/@/" Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Laurie Griffiths wrote: Thanks. So Gsus would be G with an augmented third. I had understood that a "suspended" chord was one where a note from the previous chord (very often the 4th) was made to continue sounding in the new chord. Yes and no. The "sus" term originally meant that the fourth was held over from the previous chord, but people tend to have a far more relaxed attitude towards chord voicing nowadays. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com --- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Laurie Griffiths wrote: He calls xx0233 (notes are xxDADG) "Dsus4" presumably because there is a 4th but no third. Alas, he doesn't quote x32011 as a chord at all (notes xCEGCF) Would he call it Cadd11 (because it has both a third and a fourth) or would he call it Csus4. My guess would be Cadd11, since a suspended chord consists of only three notes (CFG in the case of C - x33011) My confidence that he knows his stuff is eroded a little by the absence of 076700 as a version of E7. (If you have a guitar, try it. It's the best seventh on the instrument). He quotes only 020100 or 022130. Will do. Got any other stuff like this? I never really got to checking out the possibilities of the higher frets, apart from the basic barre chords. bert -- bert van vreckem echo bexryt.vzaxnvrexckyemqxadvyaxlvasz.bxe|sed -e "s/[x-z]//g;s/q/@/" Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Personal non-commercial wrote: On Wednesday 14 February 2001 15:11, you wrote: "... what Muse does isn't compatible with what abc2midi does..." This is true in principal, but actually what abc2midi does is very flexible and can easily changed by the user or in the source. Yes exactly one can either: 1. Use pay for a finished product. 2. Make do with (excellent IMO) freeware. 3. Expend (far less) time and effort to make desired modifications than it took some altruist to write the software in the first place. [3] If this results in `non standard' abc , well then fix the script with vi (or whatever) until it does work on your setup. I have to do this already for quite a few examples that i get. After all, the whole point of abc appears to be that it is not a `closed package' - one is evidently EXPECTED to do this. If one can't repair a car - it has to go to the garage. this is the same thing. Well said, RJP. Unfortunately: a) I don't have the programming skills needed to modify the source code of an application. b) I haven't got time to learn it. c) I don't know anybody who would do it for me for free. d) *Paying* somebody to do the job would be far more expensive than buying a commercial package. (Never mind that I have to have a professional music noation appliaction in any case.) I liked your car metaphor. My skills in that field is at about the same level as my programming skills, and I do take my car to a garage whenever I need something fixed. But I can assure you that no matter how attached I am to my trusty old Starlet: the moment repairing it costs more than buying a new one, it goes straight to the Great Car Park in the Sky. So I guess I'll keep on doing the bulk of my music transcription work with some other non-abc program package. Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Bert Van Vreckem wrote: It's suspended (fours), actually, notated as `sus' or `sus4'. Quite frequently used guitar chord too. The trick is to replace the third by the fourth, e.g. D = D F# A becomes Dsus4 = D G A E.g. EADGBE - guitar tuning Dsus(4) = D G A = x00233 (E,,A,,D,G,B,E in abc-notation ;-)) Asus(4) = A D E = x02230 etc. I always thought that chord was D11, but then I never was very good at figuring out the names for these things. For info on the chord notation, see http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desmith/guitar/chords/notate.htm There's also a suspended second chord, in which the third is replaced with the second, e.g. Dsus2 = D E A (= 000230 on the guitar), Asus2 = A B E = 002200. And that one I've always called D9. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Bert Van Vreckem wrote: Phil Taylor wrote: Bert Van Vreckem wrote: I always thought that chord was D11, but then I never was very good at figuring out the names for these things. An 11th chord consists of 1, 3, (5), b7, (9), 11; a sus4 chord of 1, 4, 5. Hence, D11 = D F# (A) C (E) G, Dsus4 = D G A Since the original chord was given as x00233, or [A,,D,Adg] in abc the g is more than an octave above the root D, and therefore 11 rather than 4 surely? Or is it only called 11 if you have the 7th and 9th below it? (I have a deep suspicion of the ambiguities inherent in text-based guitar chord symbols. I'd really rather write them out in abc.) Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Since we are trying to get a new standard out: Are we happy with the existing draft? The chord has the format noteaccidentaltype/bass, where note can be A-G, the optional accidental can be b, #, the optional type is one or more of m or minminor maj major dim diminished aug or +augmented sus sustained 7, 9 ...7th, 9th, etc. and /bass is an optional bass note. I am not. I am not happy with the ambiguity of "one or more of" when in fact there are strong context conditions, for instance minmaj is crazy and I don't know what "sus" would add to "sus7". There is no way to indicate a single note alone. There is no way to indicate root+fifth only (important to heavy metal - if you feed into a heavily distorting amp, then root+fifth is OK, but not much else! I think they call them "power chords"). I offered an alternative a few posts back. The discussion has rambled and various points made. Let's get concrete. If you are not happy with mine, then propose an alternative. To recap, I suggested: guitar chord = silence|chord silence = X chord = root[modifier][/bass] root = note bass = note note = note letter[accid] note letter = A|B|C|D|E|F|G accid = #|b modifier = m|m7||maj7|dim|aug|!|4|5|6|7|9 I'm prepared to add |11|13 if someone would like to define what these mean (but one rapidly gets to the chord which has every note in it. There is after all already a way in ABC to write explicit chords [CGceg_b] for instance and I would like to "KISS"). Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
guitar chord = silence|chord silence = X chord = root[modifier][/bass] root = note bass = note note = note letter[accid] note letter = A|B|C|D|E|F|G accid = #|b modifier = m|m7||maj7|dim|aug|!|4|5|6|7|9 This looks reasonable, but it allows no way to write a bare octave (the commonest kind of chord in bass lines for 18th century Scottish music). Add 8 as another modifier? This is a cello or harpsi chord rather than a guitar chord, though. But shouldn't the chord mechanism support other chordal instruments too, like mandolin or 5-string banjo? (Laurie's suggestion is fine for Stradella- bass accordion, so that's one extra covered already). What if anything would you want to be different for other string things? One beef. Why are the accidentals given that way? ABC has an irritating non-uniformity here: you write flats and sharps prefixed with ^ and _ if they occur as accidentals in the melody line of a piece, b and # postfixed in the key signature and in chords. Couldn't a uniform notation (^ and _ prefixed everywhere) be supported? Is this an appropriate moment to suggest throwing in roman-numeral and figured-bass notations as well? I prefer "F#m" to be the canonical way to write the chord of F sharp minor because it fits into tadpoles notation more briefly. Long chord names just take up too much room, especially if there are several per bar. How the chords are printed in tadpoles doesn't have to be determined by how they're represented in the ABC source, does it? A sufficiently intelligent program, seeing this in a piece in A, could have an option to print "VI" instead, or write the whole chord part out explicitly on a separate bass stave. Parsing "F sharp minor" to print "F#m" should be easy. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modal three chord trick
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : The most sensible approach here would be to make a list of the most common chord notation that is in use at present, say that software should recognize all of those, and then state clearly this does not preclude the use of other chord notation. Music formatters can handle this easily, by displaying what's there as text. Music players can ignore what doesn't make sense, or (if interactive) can ask the user for advice. Excellent proposal. Steve Mansfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lesession.demon.co.uk - abc music notation tutorial and other goodies To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord notation
Laurie Griffiths wrote: I am not. I am not happy with the ambiguity of "one or more of" when in fact there are strong context conditions, for instance minmaj is crazy Do you mean the name is crazy or that nobody would ever use such a chord? I can agree to the former, but a minor chord with a major 7th added isn't unusual. and I don't know what "sus" would add to "sus7". Shouldn't that be "sus4" rather than "sus7". The sus7 chord is a different thing altogether - and definitely *very* common: Gsus7: G-C-D-F But the difference between "sus" and "sus4" - I'd say "sus" is either sloppy writing or a short form of "sus4". Which depends on your personal view of the transcriber, of course ;) There is no way to indicate a single note alone. That's certainly missing. There isn't any way to indicate no chord either, btw. There is no way to indicate root+fifth only (important to heavy metal - if you feed into a heavily distorting amp, then root+fifth is OK, but not much else! I think they call them "power chords"). We oguht to add "5" to the list of chord suffixes then. I offered an alternative a few posts back. The discussion has rambled and various points made. Let's get concrete. If you are not happy with mine, then propose an alternative. To recap, I suggested: guitar chord = silence|chord silence = X chord = root[modifier][/bass] root = note bass = note note = note letter[accid] note letter = A|B|C|D|E|F|G accid = #|b modifier = m|m7||maj7|dim|aug|!|4|5|6|7|9 The basic idea seems very good, but the suffix (modifier) list needs to be extended. I started making a list, but then I decided to post a (more or less random) example instead. Here's the chord progression to bars 9-44 of a big band arrangement of Woodchopper's ball - a fairly straightforward twelve bar blues - I made a couple of years ago (the arrangement that is - not the tune): D6 Dmaj7 D7 / | D6 / D7 D6 | D6 Dmaj7 D7 / | D6 / D7 G9 | G9 G11 G+11 / | G7 / G11 D6 |D6 Dmaj7 D6 / | D6 / D7 Em7 | Em7 Em13 Em-6 / | Em7 / / Em-6 | D6 / / / | D6 / / / || D6 / / / | D6 / / / | D6 / / / | D9 / / / | G7 / / / | G7 / / / | D6 / / / | D6 / Fm6 / | Em7 / / / | A7+ / / / | D6 / / / | Em7 / Fdim7 / || D69 / Dmmaj13+11 / | D9-5 / D13-9 / | D-9 / Ddim7 / | G9 / / / | G9 / / / | D6 / / / | D6 / Fm6 / | Em7 / / / | A7+ / / / | D6 / / / | Em7 / / A7+ || I've left the bass notes out for simplicity. For the record: +I've never been too fond of those fancy jazz harmonisations. That's why I keep my chord progressions this simple, especially when I arrange pre-war swing like this. +There isn't a single typo in this chord progression +There isn't a single superfluous chord there. +In case anybody wants to try it out, the first twelve bars are the theme, the next 24 are the clarinet solo - which I played almost exactly like Woody Herman did. Frank Nordberg --- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
