Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jack Campin wrote: Well, after keeping it secret for ages (copyright, you know), I might as well hit you with this one: http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/songbook Any comments welcome, esp if anyone has an idea on how to legalize the site. Looks like good stuff from what I've been able to make of it so far. Thanks! Problems: Ok, here we go :-) (1) you've used immensely long filenames, so tar on the Mac can't extract all of them. I ended up hand-editing the tar lines and the null characters out of the archive to turn it into a single ABC file containing all the tunes. I suspect Windows users would hit similar difficulties. One solution is to use .abc filenames and then always extracting the title information (for the display around the site) from the T:. That's entirely possible, even pretty nice, only thing is that it's quite a bit slower for on-the-fly generation of my pages. Or I could provide a tarball (also looking into providing compressed formats for other platforms, although I believe most platforms can handle tarballs, or?) with short filenames. Might be a bit tricky, since you cannot trust a to-8-char truncation of my long filename will give unique filenames... Other possibilities? (2) there are some non-ASCII characters used in the chords - F8 and B0. What do these represent? o-slash (for m7b5) and superscripted-o (for dim). But they do show up in the pdf/ps outputs, right? (3) there are quite a few abcm2ps-isms which need to be edited out to get BarFly to handle the file: the multivoice syntax (no way round that, I guess) Nope. Problem is that if you have a wholenote and want two chords to the bar, there's no way for standard abc to but the chords nicely. and the !fine! exclamation-point abuse (bleurgh, no excuse there, dump it). Then I guess I should avoid repeats alltogether, since I use the !fine! to indicate where the form actually ends... Hmmm... Maybe you're right, have to think it over... I assume Muse would need something similar to BarFly. Most of the material doesn't really need to have the chords separated into a different voice, and many more programs could handle your tunes if you provided a zipped-together version. (4) there are no tempi. I've been trying to play Ask me now on the alto recorder (interesting piece, gets the fingers doing new things) but it's not on the only Monk record I've got and I can imagine it going equally well at almost any speed. What's the right one? A walking ballad round 1/4=120. I though about putting tempi i the tunes, but I hate to see it in the ps-output. Don't know if it's possible to make abcm2ps not output the tempo (?) otherwise I should just strip the Q: line before sending to abcmp2s. (5) what on earth is going on in Five? Are the chords in 4/4 with the melody in 5/4? If so there are much easier ways to write it. Do you know the tune? It's an extremely difficult tune to play since everything is 5 over 4. The bass/drums play in 4/4 throughout, but the theme is having 5 notes to the bar. In the bridge this is even taken one step further with the 5-notes-a-bar is grouped in four note groups with a chord change on every first note in the four note group. This is the way to notate it... Legalization: I can't see any way round telling the publishers of each piece what you're up to and asking *them* what they want to happen. And I'm not sure that can be done without sending some of them off on a trawl across the entire Web looking for ABC files that might be convertible into invoices. At some point that's going to happen anyway but we better be prepared for it. I guess the legalization is a pretty huge task, that I have to look into at one point if this site should stay online... Not the higest priority for me right now, though. Thanks alot for your comments, I'd look into the possibilities next week (vacation) and maybe I could mail you offlist to get comments on my changes? Regards -- l8er Atte To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Atte Andre Jensen wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jack Campin wrote: I assume Muse would need something similar to BarFly. Most of the material doesn't really need to have the chords separated into a different voice, and many more programs could handle your tunes if you provided a zipped-together version. How does different platforms handle tarballs anyways? (You did did find the slightly hidden (at the bottom of the songs page) tarball with all tunes in abc, right?) My idea behind using the same two voice approach to all tunes is that 1) Although a certain tune can be set within the standard, I often find mysel adding alternate chords later where I suddenly need My Hack. So might as well to it from the beginning 2) All tunes follow the same conventions which for instance means that: 3) It is more easy to extract the correct voices (using abcselect), for the different types of output. I might note that this site started as you regular a-bunch-of-100%-standard-abc-files-+-a-tarball-site, but my visitors often didn't want to know about abc or just needed a specific tune (often transposed), so I broke away. I would love to have everything as standard abc, but since that won't do what I need, I found the best (for my purpose) abc'er around which is abcm2ps, stuck to that, and used what it can do. Maybe my site is not a real abc site, but a songbook-site that can output abcm2ps type of abc. So what? My visitors need the pdf's more than the abc, so the abc is more of an internal format. Regards -- l8er Atte To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
How does different platforms handle tarballs anyways? (You did did find the slightly hidden (at the bottom of the songs page) tarball with all tunes in abc, right?) I used two programs in succession: Stuffit Expander and then Tar (a Mac port of the Unix utility). The problem was that Tar doesn't have a way to rename files on the fly to fit them within MacOS naming restrictions, and just omitted those that it couldn't make names for, so in the end I just left the tunes all in one file; more convenient on my platform anyway. (This led to an interesting gotcha: tar file format uses lots of null characters, and not all Macintosh text editors make them visible - BarFly doesn't. I thought I'd cleaned up the file after removing visible tar instructions, but BarFly kept crashing in weird ways. It turned out there were still 26,000 null characters in the file; everything worked fine once I removed them). The F: field ought to be usable here; think up a filename for each tune (since you're doing it you can guarantee uniqueness), preferably within 8+3 conventions, put it in an F: field in the header for each tune, and have your archiver use that instead of the real filename you use locally. I think that for all non-Unix systems having all the tunes in one file is going to be easier than one-tune-per-file anyway, so perhaps there's no need to do more than concatenate. My idea behind using the same two voice approach to all tunes is that 1) Although a certain tune can be set within the standard, I often find mysel adding alternate chords later where I suddenly need My Hack. So might as well to it from the beginning 2) All tunes follow the same conventions which for instance means that: 3) It is more easy to extract the correct voices (using abcselect), for the different types of output. Good reasons, I wasn't suggesting you abandon this practice. But does abcselect give you a way of creating a one-voice file from what you've got, in cases where you wouldn't lose anything? - if so it would help people with less flexible software to provide such an alternative. (2) there are some non-ASCII characters used in the chords - F8 and B0. What do these represent? o-slash (for m7b5) and superscripted-o (for dim). But they do show up in the pdf/ps outputs, right? I don't have an abc-to-PS generator; the current Mac port of abc2ps needs more memory than there is on any machine I have regular access to - didn't think to download your PDFs to check. !fine! exclamation-point abuse Then I guess I should avoid repeats alltogether, since I use the !fine! to indicate where the form actually ends... There are two ways to do it: use P: in the header so player software gets the order right, and use the more-standard textual annotation method of ^Fine to get the screen/print display correct in a portable way. I often use both at once (and have to since BarFly doesn't print the playing order). ABC's P: construct doesn't quite work with your tunes, since you have A parts that are nearly but not exactly repeated. Makes perfect musical sense to label them both the same but an ABC player isn't going to see it that way. It would be ideal if you could use part labels like A - reprise and expect the player software to understand it. I don't think any player can yet handle multi-character part labels in header P: fields. I thought about putting tempi in the tunes, but I hate to see it in the ps-output. Don't know if it's possible to make abcm2ps not output the tempo (?) otherwise I should just strip the Q: line before sending to abcmp2s. This is one of BarFly's most annoying features too; a bit sneakier because it won't print the tempo in the header but insists on printing changes of tempo (the worst of both worlds) directly in ABC syntax. Having the Q: field commented out so only humans could read it would be a reasonable compromise. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
I had no problem unzipping the tar file with Winzip, and the long filenames were preserved. However, everything played very fast because my system didn't understand a medium tempo. I hand-edited the files to set the tempo to a speed that made sense (usually 120) and then they played OK. I've also downloaded them on to my Handspring Treo PDA/cellphone (Palm OS). -- Karl Dallas, HoustonMedia Please note new email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44(0)771 980 5907 Publishers of the jTechUpdate (Java), RUXPerienced (Windows XP), KD on jazz and KD on folk mailing lists. . To subscribe send email with 'subscribe' in the Subject field to . jTechUpdate: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . RUXPerienced: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . HardwareDaily: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . SoftwareDaily: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . KD on jazz: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . KD on folk: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Atte Andre Jensen Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 12:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jack Campin wrote: Well, after keeping it secret for ages (copyright, you know), I might as well hit you with this one: http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/songbook Any comments welcome, esp if anyone has an idea on how to legalize the site. Looks like good stuff from what I've been able to make of it so far. Thanks! Problems: Ok, here we go :-) (1) you've used immensely long filenames, so tar on the Mac can't extract all of them. I ended up hand-editing the tar lines and the null characters out of the archive to turn it into a single ABC file containing all the tunes. I suspect Windows users would hit similar difficulties. One solution is to use .abc filenames and then always extracting the title information (for the display around the site) from the T:. That's entirely possible, even pretty nice, only thing is that it's quite a bit slower for on-the-fly generation of my pages. Or I could provide a tarball (also looking into providing compressed formats for other platforms, although I believe most platforms can handle tarballs, or?) with short filenames. Might be a bit tricky, since you cannot trust a to-8-char truncation of my long filename will give unique filenames... Other possibilities? (2) there are some non-ASCII characters used in the chords - F8 and B0. What do these represent? o-slash (for m7b5) and superscripted-o (for dim). But they do show up in the pdf/ps outputs, right? (3) there are quite a few abcm2ps-isms which need to be edited out to get BarFly to handle the file: the multivoice syntax (no way round that, I guess) Nope. Problem is that if you have a wholenote and want two chords to the bar, there's no way for standard abc to but the chords nicely. and the !fine! exclamation-point abuse (bleurgh, no excuse there, dump it). Then I guess I should avoid repeats alltogether, since I use the !fine! to indicate where the form actually ends... Hmmm... Maybe you're right, have to think it over... I assume Muse would need something similar to BarFly. Most of the material doesn't really need to have the chords separated into a different voice, and many more programs could handle your tunes if you provided a zipped-together version. (4) there are no tempi. I've been trying to play Ask me now on the alto recorder (interesting piece, gets the fingers doing new things) but it's not on the only Monk record I've got and I can imagine it going equally well at almost any speed. What's the right one? A walking ballad round 1/4=120. I though about putting tempi i the tunes, but I hate to see it in the ps-output. Don't know if it's possible to make abcm2ps not output the tempo (?) otherwise I should just strip the Q: line before sending to abcmp2s. (5) what on earth is going on in Five? Are the chords in 4/4 with the melody in 5/4? If so there are much easier ways to write it. Do you know the tune? It's an extremely difficult tune to play since everything is 5 over 4. The bass/drums play in 4/4 throughout, but the theme is having 5 notes to the bar. In the bridge this is even taken one step further with the 5-notes-a-bar is grouped in four note groups with a chord change on every first note in the four note group. This is the way to notate it... Legalization: I can't see any way round telling the publishers of each piece what you're up to and asking *them* what they want to happen. And I'm not sure that can be done without sending some of them off on a trawl across the entire Web looking for ABC files that might be convertible into invoices. At some point that's going to happen anyway but we better be prepared for it. I guess the legalization is a pretty huge task, that I have to look into at one point if this site should stay online... Not the higest priority for me right now
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
Well, after keeping it secret for ages (copyright, you know), I might as well hit you with this one: http://home.wanadoo.nl/atte/songbook Any comments welcome, esp if anyone has an idea on how to legalize the site. Looks like good stuff from what I've been able to make of it so far. Problems: (1) you've used immensely long filenames, so tar on the Mac can't extract all of them. I ended up hand-editing the tar lines and the null characters out of the archive to turn it into a single ABC file containing all the tunes. I suspect Windows users would hit similar difficulties. (2) there are some non-ASCII characters used in the chords - F8 and B0. What do these represent? (3) there are quite a few abcm2ps-isms which need to be edited out to get BarFly to handle the file: the multivoice syntax (no way round that, I guess) and the !fine! exclamation-point abuse (bleurgh, no excuse there, dump it). I assume Muse would need something similar to BarFly. Most of the material doesn't really need to have the chords separated into a different voice, and many more programs could handle your tunes if you provided a zipped-together version. (4) there are no tempi. I've been trying to play Ask me now on the alto recorder (interesting piece, gets the fingers doing new things) but it's not on the only Monk record I've got and I can imagine it going equally well at almost any speed. What's the right one? (5) what on earth is going on in Five? Are the chords in 4/4 with the melody in 5/4? If so there are much easier ways to write it. Legalization: I can't see any way round telling the publishers of each piece what you're up to and asking *them* what they want to happen. And I'm not sure that can be done without sending some of them off on a trawl across the entire Web looking for ABC files that might be convertible into invoices. At some point that's going to happen anyway but we better be prepared for it. - Jack Campin * 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland tel 0131 660 4760 * fax 0870 055 4975 * http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ food intolerance data recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
Atte writes: | On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, John Chambers wrote: | Do you know how to make hidden web pages? I checked, and found that | home.wanadoo.nl is a unix machine running apache. On such a server, | it's really easy to put things on the web so that only people who | know the URL can find them. Some studies have concluded that between | 40% and 50% of the web is hidden in this way, visible only to members | of an inside group. | | If you don't know how to do it, I could explain it. | | Please to, but can I have a guess? 1) don't put metatags out for the | search engines and 2) don't tell anybody... Nah; nothing so sophisticated. I wrote a doc on the subject: http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/doc/HiddenWeb.html This was in response to a big study which concluded that around half the online pages were hidden simply by being inaccessible from the public collection of web pages. I was surprised to learn that a lot of people didn't know about this, or thought there was something underhanded about it. So I wrote up a little doc on how to do it. And note that there's nothing tricky or suspicious here; it's part of the intentional design of web servers. There are many reasons someone might want web pages to be hidden. For example, you are working on a web site, and don't want to release it to the general public. But you want to test it from web browsers to make sure that everything works. So you hide it during development. Then you add a single link from a public page to release it to the Web. The don't tell anybody is accurate. Your clique will want to keep its URLs a secret. This is mostly to keep the search sites from finding your stuff and advertising it to the world. | What you should do is pass the word among other jazz musicians, and | get them thinking about an online fake book that's available from | anywhere there's a machine with a web browser. If you can get a small | group of them contributing tunes, you can have a full fake book in a | short time. It sounds like a worthwhile project to me. | | Actually I tried that, most peoples excuse is how complex (?) abc seems to | be. All these codes. And I must admit that I should really sit down and | make a clear, working explanation on how to seup abc under windows. I get | exhausted just thinking about it :-) I've found that it helps to have a few good examples that are formatted with lots of white space for readability, and don't use too many of the more sophisticated abc features. Then I just show the abc to people, and show how easy it is to read. This gets across the idea that it's basically really simple, and they can do it. Work up a few examples that use only the two octaves, CDEFGAB and cdefgab, simple bar lines and repeats, and of course chords (since this is jazz). Use only the X, T, C, M, L and K header lines. Maybe throw in a few D lines. Arrange the music to show phrasing clearly. Print out a few copies to carry around. You should be able to teach it to someone in a few minutes. They'll start using abc for their own hand-scribbled tunes. Try emailing them a few tunes, and point out that they don't need any new abc software to read it, just their mail reader. The main problem is people who think you need complicated GUI tools to do anything on a computer. Yeah; that's difficult. But abc is plain text. You can write it with a pencil. Typing tunes is pretty easy. A computer keyboard isn't as good as a musical keyboard, but it's not all that bad. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
John == John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John The don't tell anybody is accurate. Your clique will want to keep John its URLs a secret. This is mostly to keep the search sites from John finding your stuff and advertising it to the world. There's something else you want to do for that, and that's to tell the robots not to index it if they do stumble on it. You do this by putting in the header a tag that says: META NAME=robots CONTENT=index,nofollow (or noindex, nofollow). I assume this doesn't protect against spam harvesters, but does result in your pages not being indexed by google. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
Atte writes: | On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Ulf wrote: | Any comments welcome, esp if anyone has an idea on how to legalize the site. | | Well, there might be a minor problem there. | | This will not go away :-) I might move it to a new secret place, | but I really need it to be online for myself. Often I'm at school, | and just before a rehersal somebody asks could we play this song. | Although it's by no means exhaustive, there are some of the more | special songs I like to play (U.M.M.G, Asiatic Raes, The touch of | your lips and Oh! look at me now for instance) that are not in a | lotta fake books. And no, a lotta super-basic-standards are not | there - yet... Yeah; that's pretty much my reasoning for starting my tune finder. It was pure personal self interest. I wanted a fast way to find things on all those abc sites that were out there, and I figured that a computer could do the search better than I could. I've often used it to find tunes fast when someone asks if I can play something for a particular gig. Do you know how to make hidden web pages? I checked, and found that home.wanadoo.nl is a unix machine running apache. On such a server, it's really easy to put things on the web so that only people who know the URL can find them. Some studies have concluded that between 40% and 50% of the web is hidden in this way, visible only to members of an inside group. If you don't know how to do it, I could explain it. | Anyway, I might contribute with a song or two, I have a couple here too, might | make your collection more complete. | | Great, hit me :-) What you should do is pass the word among other jazz musicians, and get them thinking about an online fake book that's available from anywhere there's a machine with a web browser. If you can get a small group of them contributing tunes, you can have a full fake book in a short time. It sounds like a worthwhile project to me. What I've found helps is a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor. I like to tell people that there's a price to using my tune finder. You are now required to type in a bunch of your favorite tunes in abc and put them on a web site. I can put them on my site for a while, until you get your own web site. This gets grins when I say it, but it works often enough. Just last week, one of the Balkan/Klezmer musicians whose tunes I have had online sent me email with the URL of his new online collection. Anyway, if you pass the word and get musicians using your site, you can probably get contributions from some of them pretty quickly. After someone has sent you a dozen tunes or so, you can suggest that they might want to make their own web site. And if the online jazz fake book is scattered across a lot of sites, the publishers will have a lot of problems shutting it down. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, John Chambers wrote: Atte writes: | On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Ulf wrote: | Any comments welcome, esp if anyone has an idea on how to legalize the site. | | Well, there might be a minor problem there. | | This will not go away :-) I might move it to a new secret place, | but I really need it to be online for myself. Often I'm at school, | and just before a rehersal somebody asks could we play this song. | Although it's by no means exhaustive, there are some of the more | special songs I like to play (U.M.M.G, Asiatic Raes, The touch of | your lips and Oh! look at me now for instance) that are not in a | lotta fake books. And no, a lotta super-basic-standards are not | there - yet... Yeah; that's pretty much my reasoning for starting my tune finder. It was pure personal self interest. I wanted a fast way to find things on all those abc sites that were out there, and I figured that a computer could do the search better than I could. I've often used it to find tunes fast when someone asks if I can play something for a particular gig. Do you know how to make hidden web pages? I checked, and found that home.wanadoo.nl is a unix machine running apache. On such a server, it's really easy to put things on the web so that only people who know the URL can find them. Some studies have concluded that between 40% and 50% of the web is hidden in this way, visible only to members of an inside group. If you don't know how to do it, I could explain it. Please to, but can I have a guess? 1) don't put metatags out for the search engines and 2) don't tell anybody... | Anyway, I might contribute with a song or two, I have a couple here too, might | make your collection more complete. | | Great, hit me :-) What you should do is pass the word among other jazz musicians, and get them thinking about an online fake book that's available from anywhere there's a machine with a web browser. If you can get a small group of them contributing tunes, you can have a full fake book in a short time. It sounds like a worthwhile project to me. Actually I tried that, most peoples excuse is how complex (?) abc seems to be. All these codes. And I must admit that I should really sit down and make a clear, working explanation on how to seup abc under windows. I get exhausted just thinking about it :-) -- l8er Atte To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] jazz-songbook in abcformat
On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Ulf wrote: Any comments welcome, esp if anyone has an idea on how to legalize the site. Well, there might be a minor problem there. You know how things went with www.lyrics.ch, a sad affair. I have grasped a vast number of lyrics from that server. Now it's gone... This will not go away :-) I might move it to a new secret place, but I really need it to be online for myself. Often I'm at school, and just before a rehersal somebody asks could we play this song. Although it's by no means exhaustive, there are some of the more special songs I like to play (U.M.M.G, Asiatic Raes, The touch of your lips and Oh! look at me now for instance) that are not in alotta fake books. And no, a lotta super-basic-standards are not there - yet... Anyway, I might contribute with a song or two, I have a couple here too, might make your collection more complete. Great, hit me :-) One thing you can do is mention on your home page that the abc files exist. Well that is mentioned, although not with capital letters. It started out as a pure abc site, but the users (that would be my friends, fellow musicians and students) mostly couldn't/wouldn't figure out how to get abc running. So finally I decided to promote the pdf-versions most. For the abc-files look at the bottom of the first page (songs). -- l8er Atte To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
