Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Let me see if I can get to grips with what Bruce is trying to say. Quoting the first 2 sentences from Chris Walshaw's Introduction on the ABC home page we have: "abc is a language designed to notate tunes in an ascii format. No argument there. It was designed primarily for folk and traditional tunes of Western European origin (such as English, Irish and Scottish) which can be written on one stave in standard classical notation." So that just tells us what sort of tunes it was [originally] designed for. It does not say that it has to have any particular relationship with a "one stave in standard classical notation". That was just a way of describing the kind of tune. With J:key signature and bypassing K:spec. That is complete with the minimum number of parameters and has no ambiguities, or redundancies (linear dependence). I have no doubt that your system works. In just the same way Cartesian coordinates are complete and span 3-space in a minimal fashion with no ambiguities or redundancies, but it's not the only system.. That your system works is not the point. Everything else is what someone to some groups want to tack on, but they are all options, not needed to finish the original purpose of abc. The original purpose was to notate the tunes, not to look like a stave or map simply onto one. Being able to map simply onto one or more staves is something new (but as the author of Muse, close to my heart!) To me any notation of (say) Swallowtail jg that does not say that it's in E dorian is a poor documentation that misses something really important. And in this case standard classical notation indeed misses out something important. What are the limits of any new options directed towards extending the notation (but have no relevance for playing the melody? And should it be called ABC? Eh? I think by modes you mean scoring modes, but those aren't at all unique, and are sometimes misleading. And you've got to go beyond that for circular modes, and tunes with less than 7 notes in a 'Greek' mode scale, so it's tonic that is 2nd priority, not scoring mode. You may be able to find pathlogical cases where a tune could be described equally well as one of several modes. So what? there are gapped scales where any of several standard key signatures will work - where the changes only affect notes that never occur in the tune. So what? The "ambiguities" (especially if we allow mode=unknown) don't seem to stop us from notating tunes in ABC. Because you are proposing a change, I have to come down in favour of the original version (tens of thousands of tunes documented on the web already) unless it's really broken. To me you are only saying that you have an alternative which for some purposes you find more tasteful. To me that's not a good enough reason to change at this stage. By the way. I don't understand what you mean by "scoring modes" as opposed to any other sort of mode. What do you mean by a "circular mode"? Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Someone (don't remember who) wrote: ... in a 'Greek' mode scale ... I'm not going to reenter this discussion at the moment, but just a word of caution. Be careful with the phrase "Greek modes". The ancient Greek mode system is not the same as the one we are using today. The same names apply to different scales in ancient Greece music and modern modality. Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
John Chambers wrote:
...
An interesting musicological diversion: After getting involved with
Eastern-European and Middle-Eastern music, and also playing a lot of
Baroque music, some of Vivaldi's music started to make more sense.
There are a number of passages in his music that have transient
modulations from minor into the relative hejaz.
Interesting. Could you name some specific examples?
Frank Nordberg
---
X:1
T:La primavera
T:Op. 8 n. 1
C:Antonio Vivaldi
Z:Transcribed by Frank Nordberg - http://www.musicaviva.com
M:C
L:1/8
K:E
V:1 %Violino principale
P:1. Allegro
"Giunt e' la Primavera"e|gg gf/e/ b3 b/a/|gg gf/e/ b3 b/a/|ga/b/ ag fdB"_p"e|
gg gf/e/ b3 b/a/|gg gf/e/ b3 b/a/|ga/b/ ag f2 z "_f"e|ba/g/ ab
c'b2e|ba/g/ ab c'b2e|
c'b2a gf/e/ Tf2|e2 z "_p"e ba/g/ ab|c'b2e ba/g/ ab|c'b2 e c'b2 a|
gf/e/ "Il canto de gl' Uccelli"Tf2 "v"Mb2"v" Mb2|("v"Mb2 "v"Mb2 "v"Mb2
"v"Mb2)|(.b.b.b.b) (.b.b.b.b)|(.b.b.b.b .b.b .bc'/d'/)|
(e'/d'/c'/b/ a/g/f/e/) z4|z8|z2 z (.e' .e'.e'.e'.e')|Te3 (.e' .e'.e'.e'.e')|
Te2 z2 "e Festosetti La Salutan gli Augei con lieto
canto"b2-(b/e'/)(b/c'/)|b2-(b/e'/)(b/c'/) (b/e'/)(b/c'/)
(b/e'/)(b/c'/)|(b/e'/)(b/c'/) (b/e'/)(b/c'/) (.b.e) Tg2|
z2 Tg2 z2 g2|z2 Tg2 (.e'2.e'2)|Te'4 (.e'2.e'2)|Te'4 z2 z "v"e|
ba/g/ ab c'b2e|ba/g/ ab c'b2e|c'b2a gf/e/ Tf2|"Ei fonti allo Spirar"e
"_p"(G/A/) (B/A/)(B/A/) (G/A/)(G/A/) (B/A/)(B/A/)|
"de' Zeffiretti con dolce mormorio Scorrono intanto"(G/A/)(G/A/)
(B/A/)(B/A/) (G/A/)(G/A/) (B/c/)(B/c/)|(d/e/)(d/e/) (f/e/)(f/e/)
(d/e/)(d/e/) (f/e/)(f/e/)|(d/e/)(d/e/) (f/g/)(f/g/) (a/g/)(a/g/) (f/a/)(g/f/)|
g(f/e/) (d/c/)(B/A/) (G/A/)(G/A/) (B/A/)(B/A/)|(G/A/)(G/A/) (B/A/)(B/A/)
(G/A/)(G/A/) (B/A/)(B/A/)|G2 z g a4|
g4f4|g4a4|g4f2 z "_f"B|fe/d/ ef gf2B|
fe/d/ ef gf2B|gf2e dc/B/ c2|"Vengon' coprendo Lear di nero amanti e
Lampi, e Tuoni ad annuniarla eletti"B/ B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4
B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4 B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4
B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4|
(B/4c/4d/4e/4f/4g/4a/4b/4) z2 (B/4c/4d/4e/4f/4g/4a/4b/4)
z2|B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4 B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4B,/4
A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4 A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4A,/4|
(3b/g/b/(3e'/b/e'/ (3b/g/b/(3e'/b/e'/ (3b/g/b/(3d'/b/d'/
(3b/g/b/(3d'/b/d'/|c'2 z2 (3c'/^a/c'/(3f'/c'/f'/
(3c'/a/c'/(3f'/c'/f'/|(3c'/^a/c'/(3e'/c'/e'/ (3c'/a/c'/(3e'/c'/e'/ d'2 z2|
(3d'/^b/d'/(3g'/d'/g'/ (3d'/b/d'/(3g'/d'/g'/ (3d'/b/d'/(3f'/d'/f'/
(3d'/b/d'/(3f'/d'/f'/|e'2 z2 (3e'/c'/e'/(3g'/e'/g'/ (3e'/c'/e'/(3g'/e'/g'/|
(3d'/b/d'/(3g'/d'/g'/ (3d'/b/d'/(3g'/d'/g'/ (3c'/a/c'/(3f'/c'/f'/
(3c'/a/c'/(3f'/c'/f'/|(3b/g/b/(3e'/b/e'/ (3b/g/b/(3e'/b/e'/
(3a/f/a/(3d'/a/d'/ (3a/f/a/(3d'/a/d'/|
(3g/e/g/(3c'/g/c'/ (3g/e/g/(3c'/g/c'/ (3g/d/g/(3c'/g/c'/
(3g/d/g/(3c'/g/c'/|(3g/d/g/(3^b/g/b/ (3g/d/g/(3b/g/b/ c'2 z
"Tutti"c|gf/e/ fg ag2c|
gf/e/ fg ag2c|ag2f ed/c/Td2|"Indi tacendo questo gl'Avgeletti"(c .g.g.g
.g.g.g.g)|(.a.a.^a.a .b.b.^b.b)|Tc'8-|
(c'/d'/)(c'/d'/) c'2 (c'/d'/)(c'/d'/) Tc'2-|(c'/d'/)(c'/d'/)
(c'/d'/)(c'/d'/) Tc'4-|(c'/4d'/4)(c'/4d'/4)(c'/4d'/4)(c'/4d'/4)
(c'/4d'/4)(c'/4d'/4)(c'/4d'/4)(c'/4d'/4) Tc'4|
"Tutti"gg gf/g/ a3 a/g/|ff fe/f/ g3 g/a/|bb bb/a/ gg gg/a/|bb bb/a/ gg gg/a/|
bb ba/g/ (f/B/)(c/B/) (d/c/)(e/d/)|(f/e/)(g/f/) (a/g/)(b/a/)
(B/A/)(c/B/) (d/c/)(e/d/)|(f/e/)(g/f/) (a/g/)(b/a/) (g/e/)(f/e/)
(g/e/)(f/e/)|(a/e/)(f/e/) (a/e/)(f/e/) (b/e/)(f/e/) (b/e/)(f/e/)|
(c'd')e'2 "_f"(e'/b/)(e'/b/) (c'/b/)(e'/b/)|(c'/b/)(e'/b/)
(c'/b/)(e'/b/) e'e Tf2|"Tutti"eg ab c'b2e|ba/g/ ab c'b2e|
c'b2a gf/e/ Tf2|e2 z e ba/g/ ab|c'b2e ba/g/ ab|c'b2e c'b2a|gf/e/ Tf2 He4|]
P:2. Largo
M:3/4
L:1/16
z12|"E quindo sul fiorito ameno prato Al caro""_Il capraro che dorme"(g4e4)c4|(g2f2)g8|
(^B4d4)g4|^b2^a2 g8|(f4g4)d4|e6d2c4|
(g4e4)c4|a12-|(a4f4)d4|g12-|
g4e4c4|f12-|f4^B4G4|(e4c4)c'4|
(^^f4d4)g4|^a4 T^^f8|g12|z12|
(g4e4)c4|(g2f2)g8|(^B4d4)g4|e6d2c4|
(g4e4)c4|a2g2 a8-|(a4f4)d4|^b2^a2 b8|
g4^b4g4|c'4c4 z4|(c4f4)a4|(^B4G4)f4|
e4 Td8|c8 z4|c4f4a4|(^B4G4)f4|
e4Td8|c12|z12|Hz12|]
P:3. Danza Pastorale
M:12/8
L:1/8
"Di pastoral Zampogna al Suon festante Danzan Ninfe e Pastor nel tetto
amato"gag g2a (a3b2)a|gag g2a (a3b2)a|gab bag Tg3 Tf3|
"Di primavera all' apparir brillante""_p"gag g2a (a3b2)a|gag g2a
(a3b2)a|gab bag f3 b2f|
dcB bag Tg2f b2 z| b2 z b2 z b2 z (def)|(fga) (agf) (fed) (def)|
(fga) (agf) gag (c'3|b3 a3) gag (c'3|b3 a3) "Solo"gef gfe|bc'b
e'd'c' bgf e3|bc'b e'd'c' bgf e3|
(b/a/g/f/e) =d'c'b c'e'd' c'ba|(c'/b/^a/g/f) e'd'c' d'f'e'
d'c'b|(d'/c'/^b/^a/g) f'e'd' e'(g'/f'/e') g'f'e'|
d'(f'/e'/d') f'e'd' c'(e'/d'/c') e'd'c'|b(d'/c'/b) d'c'b a(c'/b/a)
c'ba|(g/^b/)c'2- c'2a (g/b/)c'2- c'2a|
(gc'=b agf) egc' dg^b|"Tutti"[e3/2c'3/2-][f/c'/-][c'e] e2f (f3
g2)f|(efe e2f (f3 g2)f|efg gfe e3 d3|
(g3a3)(f3g3)|(e3f3)d6|"_p"(g3a3)(f3g3)|(e3f3)d6|"_f"(gab) (bag) a6|
(fga) (agf) g6|b3 a3 gfe- e2g|b3 a3 (gfe- e2g)|(c'b^a) (c'ba) b6-|
b3 ^a3 "Solo"b(d'/c'/b) fbf|d(d'/c'/b) fbf d(f/e/d) Bdf|b(B/c/d/e/) fga
([ac-][c-g][c-f]) [ac-][c-g][cf]|[Bg] (E/F/G/A/ Bc=d) ([dF-][F-c][F-B])
([dF-][F-c][FB])|
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
I'd prefer "unknown" to "none" for this case. K:unknown _b "None" says to me that it's atonal. I'd like to reserve "none" for the atonal case where it does deliver a very important musical message. "Unknown" would be particularly appropriate for things like the Vivaldi and Bach that J.C. recently mentioned. Laurie - Heavily abridged thread: _b +-unspecified-+ Bb disastrous. How about a new keyword to warn the user when one of these oddities is coming? K:none _b allow converters from other notation systems to get the key signature right some of Vivaldi's music started to make more sense. transient modulations into the relative hejaz. Vivaldi was clearly familiar with this sort of scale and its harmonies. Bach occasionally used dorian key signatures. sometimes wrote Cm with only two flats. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Richard L Walker remarked: | Hmm, maybe actually defining the scale (as below) within an abc file | wouldn't be such a hot idea after all. Yeah. There have been a few suggestions that we have a way of defining modes. It's not really very difficult to come up with schemes to do this. The problem is that the schemes come out somewhat on the complex side, and it's always obvious that your typical musician wouldn't have a chance of ever using it right, or even remembering the scheme. Most musicians can't even give you an accurate definition of a major scale. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that we shouldn't discuss the idea. There are already some features within abc that are only used by a minority of musicians. If something useful can be ignored by people who don't need it, then it's not necessarily a problem. The only real problem with "obscure" featues is the question of how many programmers will be bothered to implement them. We've seen this with the "global accidentals" idea, which was in the 1.6 standard and was apparently hardly implemented at all. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Laurie Griffiths wrote:
What we have for the situation key sig/tonic/scoring mode is
practically trivial algebra. [Simple minded Gramm-Schmidt
procedure to get an orthonormal set of basis vectors that span
the space.]
I bet that there are some [virtually] present who would regard
Gramm-Schmidt as very highly advanced algebra indeed!
To paraphrase Mark Twain: the difference between the right
syntax and nearly the right syntax is like the difference between
being hit by lightning and being nearly hit by lightning.
There are lots of analogies about coordinate systems. For
instance, if you wanted to drive to this place I could give
you the latitude and longitude. For an American who
wanted to know where I live it would probably be very
good, but to get here you need to know that you head out
of the city and turn left immediately after the footbridge.
A coordinate system which is right for one purpose can be
wrong for another, even if they are trivially related.
To me as a musician knowing the mode tells me a lot about
the character of the tune. (I play a fiddle mainly and it
doesn't have any black or white notes). The next thing
I want to know is the tonic. If the guitarist is struggling
to find where I am, I don't shout to him "one sharp!"
which would be completely silly and send him off
in the direction of {G, D7, C, Em}, I shout "I'm in A
Dorian" which tells him {Am, G}.
K:tonic[scoring] modekey sig. puts top priority last
It's a case of horses for courses. To me the priorities are
1. Mode, 2. Tonic, 3. Any corrections/adjustments
This is not to say that your priorites are wrong, it's a case
of relativity. I am not in your frame of reference.
Laurie
Quoting the first 2 sentences from Chris Walshaw's Introduction on
the ABC home page we have:
"abc is a language designed to notate tunes in an ascii
format. It was designed primarily for folk and traditional tunes of
Western European origin (such as English, Irish and Scottish) which
can be written on one stave in standard classical notation."
With J:key signature and bypassing K:spec. That is
complete with the minimum number of parameters and has no ambiguities,
or redundancies (linear dependence).
Everything else is what someone to some groups want to tack on, but
they are all options, not needed to finish the original purpose of
abc. What are the limits of any new options directed towards extending
the notation (but have no relevance for playing the melody? And should
it be called ABC?
I think by modes you mean scoring modes, but those aren't at all
unique, and are sometimes misleading. And you've got to go beyond
that for circular modes, and tunes with less than 7 notes in a
'Greek' mode scale, so it's tonic that is 2nd priority, not scoring
mode.
PS: Finding the right coordinate system for solution of a problem,
can be the governing factor between success or failure. Now, however,
when faced with failure, you can program what you have figured out
and often solve it by an iterative process of convergence to a numerical
solution. One may or may not be able to describe the numerical by an
closed form analytic equation. (I'm ashamed to admit I've had to do that
for a multiple concave and flat mirror optical system when I couldn't
cope with the complex algebra in when the 'natural' coordinate system
changed after each reflection, by resorting to 3D ray tracing.)
Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a
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Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
On the subject of global accidentals John Chambers wrote: ... The idea of a tool with an option to distribute accidentals through the music does strike me as potentially useful in some obscure situations. ... At the moment Muse doesn't support global accidentals, but does have this fuunctionin so far as it applies between "standard" keys. For instance if you write a tune in C and then realise that you have sharped every single G in the piece you can tell Muse to change the key signature to G and preverve the pitch of the notes. It is useful. I have used it in real life, most often to correct the mode of a mixolydian piece. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Laurie Griffiths wrote: For instance if you write a tune in C and then realise that you have sharped every single G in the piece you can tell Muse to change the key signature to G and preverve the pitch of the notes. ... and I'm sure you meant F there on the second line? ;-) -- bert van vreckem echo bexryt.vzaxnvrexckyemqxadvyaxlvasz.bxe|sed -e "s/[x-z]//g;s/q/@/" The trouble with computers is that they do what you tell them, not what you want. -- D. Cohen To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
On Wed 07 Mar 2001 at 01:30AM +, John Chambers wrote: Wil writes: | But is there a compelling reason why we should not define | "E hejaz" or "E freygish"? (in a similar manner to the definition | proposed for chords) I have a further suggestion for handling arbitrary modes which promotes them to part of the abc, but doesn't require the application to know all possible modes; allow the K: field to have a mode= subfield. This will do the following: 1. Check the number of sharps and flats and give a warning if it does not correspond to the specified mode. 2. Work out the root note and either print root at an appropriate place for a typesetting program or something else appropriate for a player program. e.g. K:C ^b _f mode=hejaz will check to see if you really have specified hejaz mode. James Allwright To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
On Wed 07 Mar 2001 at 12:35AM +, Phil Taylor wrote: Wil wrote: But is there a compelling reason why we should not define "E hejaz" or "E freygish"? (in a similar manner to the definition proposed for chords) I assume we are talking about the K: field here, and I think there is a fairly compelling case against. Adding new modes ad hoc like this is not application-friendly. Currently, we know that the mode will be only one of 12 possibilities, so we can cover all cases. If an application does not recognize a mode, the rest of the file becomes just about useless. Writing something like K:C ^b _f % hejaz conveys the same information and is fully backwards-compatible. (I'm sure this example is wrong because I have no idea what hejaz is). Obviously there are many people who find mode information helpful and useful, but then again many people can manage perfectly well without it, so it seems a little unreasonable to force a full knowledge of modes onto anyone who wants to read abc. I hope I haven't stirred up too much of the religous ferver that this topic always seems to invite. James Allwright To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
See if I've got this right: K: RootMode Key signature Dlyd D lydian F# - C# - G# DD majorF# - C# D^e_fD sillyE# - Fb D^f^c=g D none F# - C# - G natural _b +-unspecified-+ Bb This last one seems potentially disastrous, as almost any newcomer to ABC would assume it meant B flat major (in fact it's the way I'd *prefer* to write B flat major). How about a new keyword to warn the user when one of these oddities is coming? K:none _b for that example where no root is given, or K:G none _b % synonymous with G dorian where we state the root but import no assumptions from modal theory about what the key signature is. (I don't think this is generally a good idea; people should be encouraged to give names to unusual modes, even if they are fairly arbitrary like the Kurdish examples I posted here a while back). "none" would also allow converters from other notation systems to get the key signature right while providing the reader with the information that the key/mode specification was incomplete and some human editing still had to be done. The other use of a "none" key or mode is when using an automatic transposer (like BarFly's built-in utility) for atonal music; the required behaviour is different than when transposing a piece in C. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Hmm, maybe actually defining the scale (as below) within an abc file wouldn't be such a hot idea after all. "Richard L Walker"[EMAIL PROTECTED] Pensacola, FL 32504-7726 USA -Original Message- | This gives a scale of C _D E F G A _B c. | Oh, "mixolydian with flattened 2nd" then. The "phrygian with major | third" would be | C _D E F G _A _B c Hmmm ... I seem to have gotten both of them wrong, too. I meant C _D E F G _A _B c To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Frank Nordberg writes: | I think it's time to discuss modes and key signatures again. ... | We need a way to notate key signatures without implying a root for three purposes: | |1. To be able to notate as correctly as possible music that doesn't fit the | modal system. |2. To be able to notate non-standard key signatures. |3. As a safe way out for transcribers (humans or computer programs) that are | not able to discern between the various modes. One minor quibble, which deals with a marginal issue that I'd like to mention: I think the "without implying a root" isn't the main thing here; it would be better to say "without stating a mode". Of course, with case 3, you want to be able to omit both the root (aka tonic) and the mode when it's not practical to get them right. But in cases 1 and 2, the ideal would be to encourage people to give the tonic if they know it, plus the key signature. One of the advantages of ABC over traditional staff notation, which carries over to computerized music (plain text vs GIF or other image formats) is that computerized lookups become possible. Classical key signatures don't indicate the tonic, but this isn't a problem because you can't search printed music anyway except by laboriously leafing through pages of music. But with ABC, it's now possible to ask the computer things like "Find me a jig in the key of G." So we want to encourage giving the tonic, while not requiring it. We want to encourage giving the mode, while providing a way to give just the signature if the mode isn't easily determined for some reason (such as a non-western scale or an ignorant transcriber). So my "marginal" point: The current standard says that if no mode is given, major is assumed. It has been suggested that in my extended K:tonicmodesignature syntax, the same default should apply. I think this is a bad idea. In my implementation in abc2ps, what I did was to say that if only the tonic is given, with no mode or signature, then major is assumed. This is a subtle point, but I think it has significance. To see why, consider a musician trying to transcribe a tune in what a middle-eastern musician would call "E hejaz" or a klezmer musician would call "E freygish". I'd write this as K:E^G That is, the tonic is E and the signature consists solely of a G sharp. (It could obviously be K:^g if you prefer.) Note that there is no mode stated. If the mode defaults to major, the result will be that this will appear with four sharps, as if K:E had been written. The musician will, of course, be baffled by this, and will probably conclude that the software is broken (or doesn't yet implement key signatures). The ^G seems to have been ignored. Now, to the musicological expert, there's no puzzle here. You need to include a mode to cancel the major default. What mode do you use? To the expert, it's obviously "phr". But to the other 99% of the musicians in the world, it's not obvious at all. Even worse, what's needed to cancel the major default is different for every tonic. Most musicians will never be able to learn or remember this. However, they will quickly learn that there's another solution: K:^G This gives the desired signature. If you don't tell the software the tonic, it can't add an incorrect default major key signature. And we have lost the tonic and the ability to do our lookups. So the effect of making major the default mode is that we will see more ABC without a tonic in K: lines. But if we use the rule that the default is major only if no mode or signature is given, then K:E^G will work exacly like you'd expect, and we've subtly encouraged musicians to include the tonic when they know it. (Now if we could only think of a way to do something about the ABC tunes that have K:G for K:Em or K:Ador or K:Dmix. ;-) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
John Chambers wrote: One minor quibble, which deals with a marginal issue that I'd like to mention: I think the "without implying a root" isn't the main thing here; it would be better to say "without stating a mode". I stand corrected. ... So my "marginal" point: The current standard says that if no mode is given, major is assumed. It has been suggested that in my extended K:tonicmodesignature syntax, the same default should apply. I think this is a bad idea. In my implementation in abc2ps, what I did was to say that if only the tonic is given, with no mode or signature, then major is assumed. This is a subtle point, but I think it has significance. To see why, consider a musician trying to transcribe a tune in what a middle-eastern musician would call "E hejaz" or a klezmer musician would call "E freygish". I'd write this as K:E^G That is, the tonic is E and the signature consists solely of a G sharp. (It could obviously be K:^g if you prefer.) The problem is the "global accidentals" of abc. Global accidentals is a good idea, but it is misinterpreted by a number of applications and certainly messes up the syntax if we want to introduce non-standard key signatures. I'm sure we can find a way round that though. As for the misinterpretation part, I suggest the devolpers of the applications in question update their software to confirm to the present abc standard. To avoid a potential sidetrack, here's a quote from the abc 1.6. standard: Finally, global accidentals can also be set in this field so that, for example, K:D =c would write the key signature as two sharps (key of D) but then mark every c as natural... So, the standard clearly states that global accidentals is *not* a part of the key signature. Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
"Frank" == Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frank So, the standard clearly states that global accidentals is Frank *not* a part of the key signature. John has been campaigning to change that, on the grounds that nobody has ever been known to use it. I know you suggested that we start from scratch, so let me rephrase that: Many people feel that the current syntax for global accidentals which are not part of the key signature would be more useful and intuitive if it were used for accidentals which are part of the key signature. Does anyone actually use the current syntax? If so, can you post an example? If you do, would you mind if the display of your ABC file were changed, to have the accidental in the key signature instead of applied to every note? Would you still mind if the standard changed, and a conversion tool were supplied which automatically converted your file to have the accidentals applied to every note? In general I'm as against changing the standard in ways which break existing ABC as the next person, but if nobody has ever used that part of the standard, and there is way to use the syntax for something which lots of people are dying to use, I don't think we should be dogmatic. I do think that the minute we change the standard in a way that potentially breaks existing ABC, we should put in a version keyword, so that ambiguity is avoided, and automated conversion tools are possible. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, John Chambers wrote: Of course, with case 3, you want to be able to omit both the root (aka tonic) and the mode when it's not practical to get them right. But in cases 1 and 2, the ideal would be to encourage people to give the tonic if they know it, plus the key signature. One of the advantages of ABC over traditional staff notation, which carries over to computerized music (plain text vs GIF or other image formats) is that computerized lookups become possible. Classical key signatures don't indicate the tonic, but this isn't a problem because you can't search printed music anyway except by laboriously leafing through pages of music. But with ABC, it's now possible to ask the computer things like "Find me a jig in the key of G." So we want to encourage giving the tonic, while not requiring it. I didn't want to copy in John's entire post, as I'm sure everyone's read it, but since we're starting the discussion fresh, I want to add my support for his solution. Speaking for myself, my primary concern about the modes question was, and still is, that the current functionality doesn't get broken, both for the sake of the existing body of tunes on the web, and the ability to search them. If there is a way to do that and to expand ABC's capabilities for handling other music not covered by the existing standard, so much the better. John's solution does seem to do that. Wendy To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
But is there a compelling reason why we should not define "E hejaz" or "E freygish"? (in a similar manner to the definition proposed for chords) wil Frank Nordberg wrote: John Chambers wrote: One minor quibble, which deals with a marginal issue that I'd like to mention: I think the "without implying a root" isn't the main thing here; it would be better to say "without stating a mode". I stand corrected. ... So my "marginal" point: The current standard says that if no mode is given, major is assumed. It has been suggested that in my extended K:tonicmodesignature syntax, the same default should apply. I think this is a bad idea. In my implementation in abc2ps, what I did was to say that if only the tonic is given, with no mode or signature, then major is assumed. This is a subtle point, but I think it has significance. To see why, consider a musician trying to transcribe a tune in what a middle-eastern musician would call "E hejaz" or a klezmer musician would call "E freygish". I'd write this as K:E^G That is, the tonic is E and the signature consists solely of a G sharp. (It could obviously be K:^g if you prefer.) The problem is the "global accidentals" of abc. Global accidentals is a good idea, but it is misinterpreted by a number of applications and certainly messes up the syntax if we want to introduce non-standard key signatures. I'm sure we can find a way round that though. As for the misinterpretation part, I suggest the devolpers of the applications in question update their software to confirm to the present abc standard. To avoid a potential sidetrack, here's a quote from the abc 1.6. standard: Finally, global accidentals can also be set in this field so that, for example, K:D =c would write the key signature as two sharps (key of D) but then mark every c as natural... So, the standard clearly states that global accidentals is *not* a part of the key signature. Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Laura Conrad wrote: Many people feel that the current syntax for global accidentals which are not part of the key signature would be more useful and intuitive if it were used for accidentals which are part of the key signature. I have no problems with that. As long as we're talking about changing the standard rather than breaking it. Like laura I don't like changes that interfer with existing ABC, but I've never heard of any abc file that actually uses global accidentals, so it might be safe to do so in this particular case. Wendy Galovich wrote: If there is a way to do that and to expand ABC's capabilities for handling other music not covered by the existing standard, so much the better. John's solution does seem to do that. Seems so. We only have to keep in mind that a letter alone still means major mode. See if I've got this right: K: RootMode Key signature Dlyd D lydian F# - C# - G# DD majorF# - C# D^e_fD sillyE# - Fb D^f^c=g D none F# - C# - G natural _b +-unspecified-+ Bb etc., etc., etc. John's proposal doesn't *really* clash with abc 1.6 since the global accidental syntax seems to require a space between the key signature and the acidentals (e.g. D ^e_f rather than D^e_f), but keeping it might still be a bit too confusing. Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Laura wrote: "Frank" == Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frank So, the standard clearly states that global accidentals is Frank *not* a part of the key signature. John has been campaigning to change that, on the grounds that nobody has ever been known to use it. I know you suggested that we start from scratch, so let me rephrase that: Many people feel that the current syntax for global accidentals which are not part of the key signature would be more useful and intuitive if it were used for accidentals which are part of the key signature. Does anyone actually use the current syntax? If so, can you post an example? If you do, would you mind if the display of your ABC file were changed, to have the accidental in the key signature instead of applied to every note? Would you still mind if the standard changed, and a conversion tool were supplied which automatically converted your file to have the accidentals applied to every note? In general I'm as against changing the standard in ways which break existing ABC as the next person, but if nobody has ever used that part of the standard, and there is way to use the syntax for something which lots of people are dying to use, I don't think we should be dogmatic. I do think that the minute we change the standard in a way that potentially breaks existing ABC, we should put in a version keyword, so that ambiguity is avoided, and automated conversion tools are possible. I don't think that we need to change the standard by very much here; after all, what goes into the abc is not going to change, only the way in which programs interpret it - and that could simply be a local option. So the standard could just say that "global accidentals" can either be written before the note wherever it occurs in the music (as at present) or added to the key signature. Whichever the user chooses makes no difference to the music as played, it's just a display option and does not break any existing abc files (if there are any). Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
Frank Nordberg writes: | ... To avoid a potential sidetrack, here's a quote from the | abc 1.6. standard: | | Finally, global accidentals can also be set in this field so | that, for example, K:D =c would write the key signature as two | sharps (key of D) but then mark every c as natural... | | So, the standard clearly states that global accidentals is *not* a part | of the key signature. Yes; I'd noticed that. We had a bit of a discussion a while back that included the suggestion that both could be included if we used the rule that an explicit key signature doesn't contain any spaces between the tonic and the accidentals, while global accidentals are separated by at least one space. The main argument against this is the "user friendly" one. We've seen how a great many abc users play fast and loose with spaces, and many clearly aren't quite capable of considering spaces as characters. This is why a lot of abc is so unreadable, and it also explains why a lot of hand-written music (in staff notation) is so unreadable. But it's an unpleasant fact of life, and if possible, we should accept spaces with key signatures, as is now done by most software between the tonic and mode. The main counter-argument to this is "What if someone is using the global accidentals syntax?" This was mostly why I asked a while back whether anyone had actually implemented it and used it. It got a loud silence then. I'm glad that Laura has asked again; maybe someone is using it that didn't hear the question earlier. However, if we can't turn up some actual uses, a reasonable approach would be to decree "glabal accidentals" as an interesting idea that doesn't seem to have gotten anywhere, and delete it from the standard. We can then say that in the K: line, the tonic, mode and accidentals mayb e run together or separated by spaces, whichever looks best to you. The idea of a tool with an option to distribute accidentals through the music does strike me as potentially useful in some obscure situations. In particular, I've worked on some abc tutorials, and I can imagine using such an option in creating the examples. This would make it possible to have a single abc source file that is converted to an image in two different ways, showing the accidentals as a key signature and then spread throughout the music. But I'd predict that there wouldn't actually be very much use for such an option in real life, and it probably won't be widely implemented, if at all. BTW, it is interesting to note that player programs always have to distribute the accidentals throughout the tune, so for them, this whole issue is moot. We've had a number of suggested features (e.g., the issue of octaves with clefs) for which it's the music formatters that don't care (since they don't produce pitches, only marks on paper), while the players have to deal with it. The issue of extended repeats is also significant work for players, but rather trivial for formatters. To a player program, "global accidentals" and "explicit key signatures" look and act like the same thing. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Modes and key signatures (Was: Hi)
John Chambers wrote: . given, major is assumed. It has been suggested that in my extended K:tonicmodesignature syntax, the same default should apply. I think this is a bad idea. In my implementation in abc2ps, what I did was to say that if only the tonic is given, with no mode or signature, then major is assumed. This is a subtle point, but I think it has significance. To see why, consider a musician trying to transcribe a tune in what a middle-eastern musician would call "E hejaz" or a klezmer musician would call "E freygish". I'd write this as K:E^G That is, the tonic is E and the signature consists solely of a G sharp. (It could obviously be K:^g if you prefer.) Note that there is no mode stated. If the mode defaults to major, the result will be that this will appear with four sharps, as if K:E had been written. The musician will, of course, be baffled by this, and will probably conclude that the software is broken (or doesn't yet implement key signatures). The ^G seems to have been ignored. Now, to the musicological expert, there's no puzzle here. You need to include a mode to cancel the major default. What mode do you use? To the expert, it's obviously "phr". But to the other 99% of the musicians in the world, it's not obvious at all. Even worse, what's needed to cancel the major default is different for every tonic. Most musicians will never be able to learn or remember this. However, they will quickly learn that there's another solution: K:^G This gives the desired signature. If you don't tell the software the tonic, it can't add an incorrect default major key signature. And we have lost the tonic and the ability to do our lookups. So the effect of making major the default mode is that we will see more ABC without a tonic in K: lines. But if we use the rule that the default is major only if no mode or signature is given, then K:E^G will work exacly like you'd expect, and we've subtly encouraged musicians to include the tonic when they know it. (Now if we could only think of a way to do something about the ABC tunes that have K:G for K:Em or K:Ador or K:Dmix. ;-) Why so awkward? I've already shown how to do this quite simply with J:key sig, [tonic] and in the K:tonicmode you still have the logic flaw. It's going to be a developer's nightmare to resolve any inconsistanies in the triple K:spec. Bandaids on K:spec isn't going to fix it's logic flaw. And by modes it seems to be implied that it's that of the tune, not that it's scoring mode, often very different things. There's a tune in the Stanford-Petrie collection of Irish music that has no sharps or flats on the key signature, and obvious keynote A. Minor, right?. No! Every F, C, and G has an 'accidental' sharp, so it's A major. Of course you can score it as minor, and K:spec doesn't care if it's correct or not, because it doesn't have much to do with keys and modes, it just limits the possibilities. I had problems with an ABC that I made from Simpson 'The British Broadside Ballad and It's Music'. My program didn't come out right on scoring mode and letter notes, although got the mode# of the tune correct. I spent 2 hours searching for a bug, that turned out not to be there. Simpson had put in brackets a flat on the key signature for E, and there was a single E in the tune with an accidental natural not in brackets. So it was inconsistant tune notation that fouled thing up. My ABZ program isn't fooled by any scoring (that's internally consistant), and will give the real mode of the tune in either case for that Irish tune, scored as you prefer. Note that pentatonic pi1 can be easily scored as lydian, ionian, or mixolydian. The tune isn't lydian, it isn't ionian, and it isn't mixolydian, it's pi1. My mode# (330=pi1) determines the mode of the tune, from whats in the tune and is independent of the scoring mode, and it can easily be inverted by simple math to give the tune's [12TET] scale relative to the key, and the tune can be rescored in any key and scoring mode you like. There are many other examples of this kind of thing where it's obvious that scoring mode is simply convenience or whim, and doesn't mean much. The 4 11 note tunes coded in file COMBCOD2.TXT are from tunes all scored as minor modes, but they is no way of telling whether they are expanded minors or majors. That scoring is just a convenience for minimizing the number of accidentals required for a scoring. If you don't reform ABC, on the K:spec, but just patch it with bandaids, I think your precious patient will die. And lets get it straight what are scoring modes and what are tune modes. Bruce Olson Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw or click below A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw" Click /a To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to:
