Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Agree with no sink tone in cruise in fact no tone in cruise at all. My vario mode was never very loud either (one of the two small speakers had failed, but never bothered to fix it). You need to be able to hear the air. Just as important as feel. Fun too to listen to a strong thermal. Cheers Bruce C Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2013, at 6:12 PM, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Of course Mike, however you need to be able to see the big picture, plenty of crashes worldwide due to technology overload. I prefer to fly with F/Os who can fly, luckily nearly all can! There isn#x27;t any technology in the world on a stormy night with a 40kt crosswind worth more than sheer experience and ability. KISS!___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Flying in the best air allows for a greater sample (time and distance) of air to pick the best climb. Sent from my iPhone On 18/03/2013, at 10:21, Matthew Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: Comparing some flights from a recent comp, A glider that flew direct saw 4 knot average climbs and averaged 40:1 A glider of the same type deviated a lot, saw 6 knot climbs and achieved 50:1 The glider that deviated could fly an additional 26km and still be ahead. That's a deviation of about 42 degrees ! Alternatively a 30 degree deviation has this glider 6 minutes ahead after 100km ! Matt On 17/03/2013, at 21:52 , John Orton johno...@gmail.com wrote: John H Cochrane has some very good articles on the web he has done some analysis on deviations which can be found at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/deviations_I.pdf Othe good artciles can also be found on this page http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm Regards, John Orton On 17 March 2013 11:57, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Adam, Is the wisp stable, building or decaying? No-one has identified that so far. Building, go. Decaying, pass it by. You should know unless you have been at cloud base - watch the sky ahead, not just cloud by cloud. I broadly agree with some previous comments, but also no-one has mentioned whether it is upwind or downwind (assuming that the direct track has a crosswind component). A mistake (no better air) made after diverting downwind is a bigger mistake. Also no-one has mentioned whether there are other gliders already at the wisp or headed that way - if there are, and they are clearly climbing, then go for it. On some days the cycle may be short, so wisps are used often. Then again, you can be surprised and use a wisp on a bigger day. You have asked a closed question (assuming that if it is more than 30degrees it isn't worth diverting). Some of the previous points may justify greater diversions if very short distances are involved, if upwind/other gliders climbing strongly etc. There is no one simple rule of thumb - there are quite a few, and they have greater or lesser importance on different days. That's why those who fly more generally succeed! (So long as they aren't just repeating themselves). Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 15/03/2013, at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
I bet your passengers and employer hope you make best use of all the information technology makes available in the cockpit when you are at work, Tom Mike At 05:12 PM 18/03/2013, you wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Dear Tom and others, Sort of related Do you operators at/near the top in Nationals favour using while cruising a vario set to relative mode, ie showing all the time what happens if the glider were slowed below 60 knots, in effect airmass less glider rate of sink at 60 kts? Cheers Roger Druce On 18/03/2013 6:12 PM, tom claffey wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom *From: * Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; *To: * Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; *Subject: * Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals *Sent: * Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments***- /design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 /www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Which is why you have the option of turning off the sink sound on the B400, B600, B700 and B800, from the front panel. You can also configure a B600/B800 to just show plain TE vario in cruise instead of relative or netto but I don't know why you would. Mike At 05:12 PM 18/03/2013, you wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Roger, I'm not sure about the definition, (and it is five years since I flew a nationals so not sure I qualify) but I believe that a good Relative Netto averager in cruise is crucial. Preferably with a numerical display to one decimal place, 20 second average (an S-nav was my preference but others will be fine too). I have a view, for what it is worth, that we instruct thermal technique (some instruct it better than others) but there is little or no instruction on cruise technique. I mean the optimisation of cruise to maximise cross country speed not the basics. This is one element in a bigger picture. The relative Netto averager was on my home screen, switching to TE for thermalling. I had it switch based on GPS heading change. All possible in a 25yo S-nav with 12-13yo firmware upgrades connected to a GPS-nav. The averager was part of my scan, and I would recall trends and fine tune subtle direction changes to pursue rising trends. I had to be really current to do this well, but it isn't as clumsy as I write it - it was automatic, a situational awareness thing. I developed this technique after flying with Georgio Galetto in a Duo one day (more piecing fragments of advice together, but he insisted on using Relative Netto average too). I have heard others use terms like energy line but that sounds too BS for me. Of course, this information is academic if you aren't skilled at the rest - and it must not compromise lookout. And if there is a big fat cu ahead, concentrate on where you think the best lift is under it. And if there is another glider cruising nearby, use them as a reference (best indication of another part of the airmass, that is why team flying works). However it worked well for me when racing alone on a few blue days. Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2013, at 7:34 PM, Roger Druce rogdr...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Dear Tom and others, Sort of related Do you operators at/near the top in Nationals favour using while cruising a vario set to relative mode, ie showing all the time what happens if the glider were slowed below 60 knots, in effect airmass less glider rate of sink at 60 kts? Cheers Roger Druce On 18/03/2013 6:12 PM, tom claffey wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
I'm not a comp pilot however I know that all the data in the world is of no use if you can't interoperate it and use it effectively regardless of what your doing; there are pilots and there are aviators; pilots drive aircraft through the sky, aviators fly as they were born with wings; when was the last time you saw an eagle looking at his vario? Stuart FERGUSON Phone - 0419 797508 On 18/03/2013, at 21:33, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Roger, I'm not sure about the definition, (and it is five years since I flew a nationals so not sure I qualify) but I believe that a good Relative Netto averager in cruise is crucial. Preferably with a numerical display to one decimal place, 20 second average (an S-nav was my preference but others will be fine too). I have a view, for what it is worth, that we instruct thermal technique (some instruct it better than others) but there is little or no instruction on cruise technique. I mean the optimisation of cruise to maximise cross country speed not the basics. This is one element in a bigger picture. The relative Netto averager was on my home screen, switching to TE for thermalling. I had it switch based on GPS heading change. All possible in a 25yo S-nav with 12-13yo firmware upgrades connected to a GPS-nav. The averager was part of my scan, and I would recall trends and fine tune subtle direction changes to pursue rising trends. I had to be really current to do this well, but it isn't as clumsy as I write it - it was automatic, a situational awareness thing. I developed this technique after flying with Georgio Galetto in a Duo one day (more piecing fragments of advice together, but he insisted on using Relative Netto average too). I have heard others use terms like energy line but that sounds too BS for me. Of course, this information is academic if you aren't skilled at the rest - and it must not compromise lookout. And if there is a big fat cu ahead, concentrate on where you think the best lift is under it. And if there is another glider cruising nearby, use them as a reference (best indication of another part of the airmass, that is why team flying works). However it worked well for me when racing alone on a few blue days. Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2013, at 7:34 PM, Roger Druce rogdr...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Dear Tom and others, Sort of related Do you operators at/near the top in Nationals favour using while cruising a vario set to relative mode, ie showing all the time what happens if the glider were slowed below 60 knots, in effect airmass less glider rate of sink at 60 kts? Cheers Roger Druce On 18/03/2013 6:12 PM, tom claffey wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Stuart. From: Stuart Kerri FERGUSON Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 9:27 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals I'm not a comp pilot however I know that all the data in the world is of no use if you can't interoperate it and use it effectively regardless of what your doing; there are pilots and there are aviators; pilots drive aircraft through the sky, aviators fly as they were born with wings; when was the last time you saw an eagle looking at his vario? Stuart FERGUSON Phone - 0419 797508 On 18/03/2013, at 21:33, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Roger, I'm not sure about the definition, (and it is five years since I flew a nationals so not sure I qualify) but I believe that a good Relative Netto averager in cruise is crucial. Preferably with a numerical display to one decimal place, 20 second average (an S-nav was my preference but others will be fine too). I have a view, for what it is worth, that we instruct thermal technique (some instruct it better than others) but there is little or no instruction on cruise technique. I mean the optimisation of cruise to maximise cross country speed not the basics. This is one element in a bigger picture. The relative Netto averager was on my home screen, switching to TE for thermalling. I had it switch based on GPS heading change. All possible in a 25yo S-nav with 12-13yo firmware upgrades connected to a GPS-nav. The averager was part of my scan, and I would recall trends and fine tune subtle direction changes to pursue rising trends. I had to be really current to do this well, but it isn't as clumsy as I write it - it was automatic, a situational awareness thing. I developed this technique after flying with Georgio Galetto in a Duo one day (more piecing fragments of advice together, but he insisted on using Relative Netto average too). I have heard others use terms like energy line but that sounds too BS for me. Of course, this information is academic if you aren't skilled at the rest - and it must not compromise lookout. And if there is a big fat cu ahead, concentrate on where you think the best lift is under it. And if there is another glider cruising nearby, use them as a reference (best indication of another part of the airmass, that is why team flying works). However it worked well for me when racing alone on a few blue days. Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 18/03/2013, at 7:34 PM, Roger Druce rogdr...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Dear Tom and others, Sort of related Do you operators at/near the top in Nationals favour using while cruising a vario set to relative mode, ie showing all the time what happens if the glider were slowed below 60 knots, in effect airmass less glider rate of sink at 60 kts? Cheers Roger Druce On 18/03/2013 6:12 PM, tom claffey wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom -- From: Mike Borgelt mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Stuart, The eagle doesn't need to look at his vario. His ears detect the pressure changes caused by climb and descent. There is also some conjecture that some soaring birds can detect the nearby presence of thermals by the infrasound (sound at frequencies lower than 20 Hz) generated. H. maybe that explains why they fly near wind turbines aka taxpayer wallet extraction machines. No humans are born with wings even figuratively. We're slightly modified, slightly more intelligent monkeys (descended from ancestors who could tolerate the ethanol in fermenting fruit that had fallen on the ground according to some recent thinking, which explains a lot - we're descendents of drunken monkeys) and it is slightly fortuitous that we can actually fly aircraft at all. Mike At 09:27 PM 18/03/2013, you wrote: I'm not a comp pilot however I know that all the data in the world is of no use if you can't interoperate it and use it effectively regardless of what your doing; there are pilots and there are aviators; pilots drive aircraft through the sky, aviators fly as they were born with wings; when was the last time you saw an eagle looking at his vario? Stuart FERGUSON Phone - 0419 797508 Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Relative is airmass less glider sink in a typical thermalling turn. About 2 knots is right for most modern gliders. Varies with wing loading and altitude(density) which is computed in properly designed modern varios. In summary: total energy compensates for rate of change of airspeed due to pilot commanded attitude changes (unfortunately also rates of change of airspeed due to horizontal gusts) netto(airmass) adds the glider sink rate at any speed to this reading so what you see is just the airmass vertical speed. Makes it easier to pick the best path through the air but when you encounter a thermal you might like to climb in, the vario reading must have around 2 knots subtracted to figure your likely rate of climb while circling. Relative just offsets the netto downwards by that 2 knots or so, so at all times in the cruise the vario will read the rate of climb you would get if you circled now. You can still pick the best path through the air easily using this but we help by having a green light that lights up when the airmass is going up in the B500/B600/B800. All of these things are designed to reduce the mental processing required to pick the best path through the air which gives you more time and attention span to looking further out to assess the total situation. More under articles on our website www.borgeltinstruments.com The above mentioned horizontal gust problem is THE major problem in total energy varios. Fortunately I've figured out how to do total energy without running in to this. Sensor testing continues. Mike At 06:34 PM 18/03/2013, you wrote: Dear Tom and others, Sort of related Do you operators at/near the top in Nationals favour using while cruising a vario set to relative mode, ie showing all the time what happens if the glider were slowed below 60 knots, in effect airmass less glider rate of sink at 60 kts? Cheers Roger Druce On 18/03/2013 6:12 PM, tom claffey wrote: For myself, I am not interested in any variometer cruise modes so am content with my B400 and B40 in our second glider. Interestingly both Bruce Taylor and myself seem to muddle along OK with sink tone disabled! ;) Tom From: Mike Borgelt mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netaus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2013 10:25:08 PM Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
John H Cochrane has some very good articles on the web he has done some analysis on deviations which can be found at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/deviations_I.pdf Othe good artciles can also be found on this page http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm Regards, John Orton On 17 March 2013 11:57, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Adam, Is the wisp stable, building or decaying? No-one has identified that so far. Building, go. Decaying, pass it by. You should know unless you have been at cloud base - watch the sky ahead, not just cloud by cloud. I broadly agree with some previous comments, but also no-one has mentioned whether it is upwind or downwind (assuming that the direct track has a crosswind component). A mistake (no better air) made after diverting downwind is a bigger mistake. Also no-one has mentioned whether there are other gliders already at the wisp or headed that way - if there are, and they are clearly climbing, then go for it. On some days the cycle may be short, so wisps are used often. Then again, you can be surprised and use a wisp on a bigger day. You have asked a closed question (assuming that if it is more than 30degrees it isn't worth diverting). Some of the previous points may justify greater diversions if very short distances are involved, if upwind/other gliders climbing strongly etc. There is no one simple rule of thumb - there are quite a few, and they have greater or lesser importance on different days. That's why those who fly more generally succeed! (So long as they aren't just repeating themselves). Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 15/03/2013, at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
The idea is to fly in air that's going up. Wow - that's where I've gone wrong for the last 50 years. Thanks Mr. Borgelt for that invaluable piece of advise. rgds Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:25:08 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
I don't know if Rolf's response was intended as sarcasm but 'The idea is to fly in air that's going up' is pretty good advice. If only we ever taught students this simple maxim then everything would be a lot easier i.e.think about where you're pointing the glider rather than meandering around meaninglessly. Dave From: rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com To: aus soaring aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, 18 March 2013 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals The idea is to fly in air that's going up. Wow - that's where I've gone wrong for the last 50 years. Thanks Mr. Borgelt for that invaluable piece of advise. rgds Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:25:08 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Mark, The idea is to fly in air that's going up. You should not be hearing the sink sound much. If you are it is time to go somewhere else and be in cruise mode while doing this when you won't hear the sink sound. Mike At 12:37 AM 18/03/2013, you wrote: On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments- design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
The Zander sink tone is far more depressing :) David -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring- boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: 18 March 2013 01:07 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals On 17/03/2013, at 11:08 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. And on that note, I'd like to congratulate you for the B50, which, as installed in AUGC's H205 Club Libelle, had the most inspiringly depressing sink sound I've ever had the misfortune to hear. Excellent work, well done :-) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Comparing some flights from a recent comp, A glider that flew direct saw 4 knot average climbs and averaged 40:1 A glider of the same type deviated a lot, saw 6 knot climbs and achieved 50:1 The glider that deviated could fly an additional 26km and still be ahead. That's a deviation of about 42 degrees ! Alternatively a 30 degree deviation has this glider 6 minutes ahead after 100km ! Matt On 17/03/2013, at 21:52 , John Orton johno...@gmail.com wrote: John H Cochrane has some very good articles on the web he has done some analysis on deviations which can be found at http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/docs/deviations_I.pdf Othe good artciles can also be found on this page http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm Regards, John Orton On 17 March 2013 11:57, Bruce discusdri...@gmail.com wrote: Adam, Is the wisp stable, building or decaying? No-one has identified that so far. Building, go. Decaying, pass it by. You should know unless you have been at cloud base - watch the sky ahead, not just cloud by cloud. I broadly agree with some previous comments, but also no-one has mentioned whether it is upwind or downwind (assuming that the direct track has a crosswind component). A mistake (no better air) made after diverting downwind is a bigger mistake. Also no-one has mentioned whether there are other gliders already at the wisp or headed that way - if there are, and they are clearly climbing, then go for it. On some days the cycle may be short, so wisps are used often. Then again, you can be surprised and use a wisp on a bigger day. You have asked a closed question (assuming that if it is more than 30degrees it isn't worth diverting). Some of the previous points may justify greater diversions if very short distances are involved, if upwind/other gliders climbing strongly etc. There is no one simple rule of thumb - there are quite a few, and they have greater or lesser importance on different days. That's why those who fly more generally succeed! (So long as they aren't just repeating themselves). Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 15/03/2013, at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Use the force?. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
'The idea is to fly in air that's going up' is pretty good advice. I was sitting opposite a world champion from Eastern Europe at dinner when someone asked him What's the secret? His answer was It's not so hard. You climb and you glide… but it's best to do it in that order. It is a technique that works well. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
On 15/03/2013, at 5:12 PM, Adam Woolley wrote: Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? Better air within 30 degrees either side of track is worth deviating for. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
It might depend a bit on the performance of your glider. I fly a Foka 5 I have been very impressed, in a negative way, by the amount of height lost in a large area of sink. Enough to see you on the ground. My very recent endevours have been to find ways to avoid or get out of sink. Has anyone else tried that? Peter Champness On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.comwrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Hi Peter Please refer to section 1.13 (Page 31) of the third edition of ASME. Kind regards Bernard _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness Sent: Saturday, 16 March 2013 8:59 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals It might depend a bit on the performance of your glider. I fly a Foka 5 I have been very impressed, in a negative way, by the amount of height lost in a large area of sink. Enough to see you on the ground. My very recent endevours have been to find ways to avoid or get out of sink. Has anyone else tried that? Peter Champness On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
At 06:57 PM 16/03/2013, you wrote: On 15/03/2013, at 5:12 PM, Adam Woolley wrote: Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? Better air within 30 degrees either side of track is worth deviating for. It is more complicated than that. Keep in mind the extra distance you would fly to get to the next turnpoint. if you end up abeam the turnpoint by flying a track 30 off the direct one you will fly 50% further Also plot the achieved cross country speed vs the average climb rate. It is not a linear function. It may be worth greater deviations from track on weak thermal days than strong ones. You can get these numbers (and a lot of other interesting information) using a ruler, from the polar plotted on a piece of graph paper and a few simple geometric constructions. Your highly trained and experienced GFA instructor should have explained this to you before you try to go cross country. (Pig squadron on the grid, ready for first launch). Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. Byars and Holbrook said this in their book Soaring cross country 40 years ago - never fly through the same bad air twice. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Adam, Is the wisp stable, building or decaying? No-one has identified that so far. Building, go. Decaying, pass it by. You should know unless you have been at cloud base - watch the sky ahead, not just cloud by cloud. I broadly agree with some previous comments, but also no-one has mentioned whether it is upwind or downwind (assuming that the direct track has a crosswind component). A mistake (no better air) made after diverting downwind is a bigger mistake. Also no-one has mentioned whether there are other gliders already at the wisp or headed that way - if there are, and they are clearly climbing, then go for it. On some days the cycle may be short, so wisps are used often. Then again, you can be surprised and use a wisp on a bigger day. You have asked a closed question (assuming that if it is more than 30degrees it isn't worth diverting). Some of the previous points may justify greater diversions if very short distances are involved, if upwind/other gliders climbing strongly etc. There is no one simple rule of thumb - there are quite a few, and they have greater or lesser importance on different days. That's why those who fly more generally succeed! (So long as they aren't just repeating themselves). Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad On 15/03/2013, at 5:42 PM, Adam Woolley go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Depends on the climb rates of the day and cycle rate. Short cycle and weak climbs go for it, the whisps maybe woking well. Boomer day with big climbs under big clouds dont bother. Jim -Original Message- From: Adam Woolley Sent: 15 Mar 2013 07:42:10 GMT To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals Everyone knows something that another doesn't know in soaring. Trying to figure out the below, any thoughts from the floor? The scenario: You've just left a CU, with the cloud direct on track being your target cloud between 3-5km away with an average climb expected, direct is blue and normal sink. 30* to your left/right is a whisp, not one that you'd use to climb in - but one that you could deviate too in order to get reduced sink or a hundred feet of altitude. Do you, go direct through the sinking air, or cover extra track miles to the whisp that you know you're not going to climb in, but get remarkably reduced sink (or even a small gain in height)? For me, I either always just lose out (more often than not) when getting to the next CU, or gain a massive advantage with a 1000' height gain on a competitor in that short cruise. Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? ie, how can I get to the next CU by beating the other competitors by second a mile (as G.Moffat would say) if it's possible overall. Cheers, Woolley ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
